DSE600 vs AGR box

[Jeremy]

I am looking to order a new steering box for my 80 TA and was wondering if the DSE 600 box is noticeably better than the AGR quick ratio box. Both boxes claim to offer better feel and I was wondering for a mostly street driven car if I would notice any difference between the two especially given that the DSE box is $200 more than the AGR.

My box is leaking and my car has little feel to it and the steering feels sloppy. Everything on the front end is new except for the box so I am reasonably sure that a new box should tighten things up. Chime in with suggestions--I would like to order a new box by Monday at the latest.

[79TransAm]

for a street drive car id go with the AGR. Thats what im going with on my 79. BTW nice bird. If your looking to build your car as cheap as possibly while still using quality id say go with the agr. And please lemme know how ya like it. For your front end, who did you use for the front end steering and suspension. I'm looking to rebuild the entire front end with moog.

[Jeremy]

I used moog for all of my hard parts. I originally had poly bushings and do not recommend them at all for a street driven car. I went back to rubber in the lower arms and am either going rubber on the upper arms or with tubular arms with solid greasable bushings.

I went with the DSE box after calling DSE. If I had not already had metric compatible lines, I would have gone AGR. I could afford the box but was not willing to spend money on changing other parts to accomodate the swap but I already had the lines.

The selling points for me were that the box was brand new and they assured me that it would have a much improved on center feel and distinct center.

Lately, my build up has gone from budget minded to quality minded. Some of the cheaper parts I purchased several years ago have left me wanting more in performance and reliabilty. All of my recent purchases have been more towards the top of the line and the overall quality of the car is much much better. Working the second job to finance the car has been worth the higher price of parts for me.

Thanks for the positive contact on the car. I can't wait to post pics when I use a better resolution camera.

[Todds69]

I'm switching from manual steering to power and have considered the same two boxes...I'm going with the AGR unit mainly for cost, but I really don't think I will see the $200 in feel for a street driven vehicle. Not to mention that $200 can pay for something else.

[Steve1968LS2]

All I can say is that I was VERY happy with my 600 box.. felt very responsive and as good as any rack and pinion car i have driven..

It is not the cheapest way to go but I was a happy customer..

If you are on a budget I see nothing wrong with a good AGR box or worked over 800 box..

[68SSConvt]

I've tried several boxes over the years, the stock unit, a late model z28 unit, then a AGR version of the stock box with a new AGR pump to go with it. I was never really happy with the feel. I recently sold the AGR and bought a DSE 600. Now I'm happy. The feel is great.

The DSE box seemed pricey, but I'm not dissappointed.

Ray

[Jeremy]

I got the DSE box today and got it installed. So far I have only been able to drive around town, but it is extremely precise. Now my car has a distinct center to the steering wheel. When I go over bumps the steering no longer feels twitchy. The effort is a little harder than I expected but still comfortable to drive. It takes three turns to go lock to lock which suprised me for a 12.7 to 1 box, but I don't know if I have more steering travel than before.

So far I am very pleased with the box. I did have to make a custom pressure line since the adaptors I had did not fit. The new box had the seat for the o ring deeper than the 3rd gen box I had. I used a pressure line from an 87 TA and cut the box fitting off. I cut a pump fitting off of a 79 line and had the two mated with a new hose. Everything worked great.

[Jeremy]

I had a chance to do some two lane highway driving and the box is well worth the money. The steering is firm but very precise. The ratio is quick--most curves required very little input. Bumps mid corner do not upset the front end like they used to. The car truly drives like a new car now.

One thing else I noticed is that it felt like the new box was more than 6 pounds lighter. I could easily manipulate the new box with one hand. I wish I would have weighed them, but it felt like more than 6 pounds lighter.

[Rick Dorion]

The box is about 6-8 pounds lighter. Interesting comment on the pressure hose fitting. I have had a heck of a time resolving leaks at the o-ring fitting. The -6 AN adapters are too short I found due to the hole being a bit deeper! Paul at Hydroboost has developed a new adapter fitting with the o-ring in the top of the fitting to seal against the box. I'm going to try it and see.

BTW - I too love the DSE box feel and performance.

[Jeremy]

Rick, I had the same problem with the adaptors I had being too short, not by much but the top of the adaptor would bottom on the box before the o ring would seat. The holes appeared much deeper -- it looked like about an 1/8 of an inch over my 3rd gen box.

[Rick Dorion]

Exactly and people thought I was nuts. How tight do you tighten the fitting? I ruined a few o-rings because I believe I overtightened and cut them. Sucks blowing out PS fluid miles from home.

[Jeremy]

Rick,


I went to when I got some resistence. I then tried to wiggle or turn the line. I continued until the steel line was tight and resisted movement. This worked for me.

I guess it would not be a bad idea to keep some o rings and power steering fluid in the trunk for a while. I would hate to blow a ring away from home.

For the return line I used a 3/8 fuel line with the o ring fitting and it fit perfectly. The threaded nut was shorter than the pressure line but I was able to get everything snug with just a little clearance before it bottomed out on the box. I think this piece cost me around 4 buck but I did have to cut a 90 degree turn off.

[Rick Dorion]

It's in the trunk :) Thanks.

[68SSConvt]

I found a thicker o-ring and put that on first then the normal o-ring. That solved the adapter leak problem for me. The thicker one seems to seal in the larger part of the housing and also holds the normal one down where it can seal against the reduced part of the housing.

Ray

[Rick Dorion]

Well, using the high pressure hose end DSE supplied, the o-ring gets cut on the lip of the box hole when you tighten everything down. The -6AN adapter is too short. Out of desperation I'll try stacking two o-rings and hopefully the modified adapter Paul (Hydroboost) is making will be the permanent fix.

It's irksome to be told 'we've never heard of any problems before you', I will say, when we can share this problem here. It's obviously real.

I guess another approach will be to buy an 87 TA hose and go to a local hydraulic hose maker and have a hybrid line made up.

[vanzuuk1]

hey rick not to change the subject but i p/m'ed you with a request for photos.

[Rick Dorion]

I don't have any PM. When did you send it? Be glad to send any pics.

[vanzuuk1]

Damn I will try again.if you dont see it by the a.m. email me at [email protected]. I was thinking about getting the same rims as you , curious to see photos and hear specs on rim/tire size offset wheelwell mods etc.All the usual new guy questions but I am a fellow new yorker so cut me some slack.Also going to the show/ cruise in L.I. tomorrow early if its not raining .

[CarlC]

Rick,

I'll take a look later today at my fittings. The box is in the car and there are no leaks with -6 brass adapters using the same teflon braided hose for pressure and return.

The -600 box is a world better than the previous fast-ratio setup. However, the old box was just a stock setup with no mods. It does have more road feel, IMO, then a Lee's box. The on-center is very nice as well.

[Rick Dorion]

I love the box, too, and have a few miles on it. I'm sure you can appreciate my joy in migrating from a manual box! The -6 adapter that came with my hydroboost is chromed. I think Paul uses aeroquip but not sure. Glad to hear yours works well. Maybe I'll order a brass one. I too am using the teflon braided hose. Thanks, Carl.

[CarlC]

There does not appear to be any issues with the fittings. They were ordered at the same time as the box from DSE.

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Carl. I'll order a brass -6 fitting from DSE and give it a try.

[Rick Dorion]

The DSE fitting did not resolve my leaking problems. I spoke with Kyle and passed on some measurements I took that suggest too much clearance between the fitting end and the well it pokes down into, leaving much of the o-ring unsupported. Hence, my o-rings getting cookie-cuttered around the middle and not sealing. I bought one of the intial boxes made available. Kyle is going to check some of the boxes in stock and machine me some adapters better matched to what I measured. I'll post back the results.

[Steve1968LS2]

As a note, this thread inspired me to do a story and I learned a ton of info..

For a street car that is not going to hit the track much use the DSE 600 box. It has a great feel but in GM's effort to make it lighter the shaft is not nearly as strong. Under HARD driving it can deform! For 90% of the cars out there this is not a problem but you should know it.

If your car is gonna be a track star then the AGR box is the way to go. They are really into building race quality stuff and Matt at ARG says he is very close to having a fix for the weaker shaft on the 600 box (I assume a stronger shaft).. the AGR is top shelf parts.

I loved my 600 box on my 69, that was one fine unit and it felt great on the highway and driving around.. Just some info :)

[Q ship]

For a street car that is not going to hit the track much use the DSE 600 box. It has a great feel but in GM's effort to make it lighter the shaft is not nearly as strong. Under HARD driving it can deform! For 90% of the cars out there this is not a problem but you should know it.

Thanks for that Steve, I had heard some mention of this on a Jeep or off-road forum during a Google search, but I didn't know if it was true or not. Looks like I may go back to waiting in line for Lee. Has anyone here had a box Rebuilt by DSE?

[Blown353]

Is the 600 box deflection issue a problem with street tires, or only with super-soft road race compound tires and/or slicks on the front?

Also, what shaft deflects? The input shaft? The worm shaft? The output shaft? Is the flexing within limits (under yield strength of the component's material); i.e. with repeated flexing will it hold up and rebound, or will it eventually break?

I'd love to see some hard numbers on this, since I was ready to order a 600 box next week to replace my 800 box which is on the way south.

[David Pozzi]

I had Lee rebuild my old box plus the pump. The cost was about $600. and it took about a month.
I put tons of questions and info about how I'd use the car in a letter and sent it along with the box and pump. I also marked my box and that is the same one they sent back to me.

I got the box back with pump and no questions answered at all!!!
I asked things like cooling needed, fluid type, pulley sizes, filter needed, etc.

I called him on the phone and we must have talked for an HOUR! A REALLY nice guy to talk to.
I haven't gotten my car running to see how it is but if anyone can build a good box it should be Lee.
David

[Rick Dorion]

I too would like to see hard data as that's a pretty strong statement/recommendation to make. Has there been breakage?

[Steve1968LS2]

Is the 600 box deflection issue a problem with street tires, or only with super-soft road race compound tires and/or slicks on the front?

Also, what shaft deflects? The input shaft? The worm shaft? The output shaft? Is the flexing within limits (under yield strength of the component's material); i.e. with repeated flexing will it hold up and rebound, or will it eventually break?

I'd love to see some hard numbers on this, since I was ready to order a 600 box next week to replace my 800 box which is on the way south.

My understanding from Kyle and from AGR that this was only problem under hard racing conditions. I don't know if street tires would have enough grip to cause a problem. Funny, I don't remember what specific shaft it was.. :pat: ..

I still say the 600 box is a great choice for most cars that just occasionally see open track days.. Also, I sounded like AGR was close to offering a stronger shaft for the 600 boxes. Call them up, I got the feeling that they were more interested in giving out accurate info than in just trying to pimp what they sell.

[Steve1968LS2]

I too would like to see hard data as that's a pretty strong statement/recommendation to make. Has there been breakage?

I think it a simple physics deal.. there is a reason the 600 box is 6 lbs lighter than an 800 box. GM made these for SUV's and trucks so they didn't care about the stresses of hard cornering since the trucks would flip before it became an issue. For you average street car this isn't an issue either but could be in a race situation. Kyle at DSE was up on this was very upfront about it. It came down to the fact that race cars and street cars have different needs.

<-- still a fan of the 600 box (and mine never leaked)

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks much, Steve. I hope the new adapters Kyle is making solve my issue. Sure have gotten good at changing adapters quickly :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Thanks much, Steve. I hope the new adapters Kyle is making solve my issue. Sure have gotten good at changing adapters quickly :)

Im going to do some more digging tomorrow on this and find out if that shaft is indeed weaker.. I've talked to a couple people today that use the 600 box in some pretty heavy duty racing and they have had no issues.

I will report my findings :)

[JayBird]

I remember seeing some of the Cup and Grand National cars using (maybe they were just testing them) the 600 boxes, because it was lighter. I know Sweet Mft and CJR sell alot of PS boxes to the NASCAR teams. I wonder if they are making stronger pitman arm shafts?

[Steve1968LS2]

Hmmmm.. I asked around.. I don't think the shaft is a problem at all with the 600 box and that I misunderstood what was said to me.

What I heard is that the 600 box has a full size sector and a full size worm gear with a great valve. Weight was saved in the casing and valve housing. Also, the machining on it is very precise with very tight tolerences. I guess the concern I heard is that they are so close tolerance that when stressed they bind up and the sector shaft leaks. Also the ring they removed from the piston does not distribute the load force as well and they only use a single seal on the sector.

So, that is what I heard.. I would think you would have to be driving VERY VERY hard to distort the casing of the box. I suppose you would need to ask racers how the 600 boxes hold up.. maybe they use them and replace them a lot or maybe they have no or little issues at all.

I am still a big fan of the 600 box and love the feel it had in my car. Take this with grain of salt because it was just one persons opinion, I just wanted to make sure I had my ducks lined up.. the shaft of the 600 box IS NOT weaker.. they saved weight as mentioned.

I will run this by Kyle and get his take..

[Jeremy]

After getting some miles on the new box, I think it is an outstanding box for street use. It was a little stiff at first, but seems to have "broken" in a bit and I really enjoy it now. I replaced the upper arms with the comp units from pro touring f body and the car drives like a totally different car. The precision of the box with the added caster of the arms and I can point the car wherever I want it and it tracks where I want it.

Now I will most likely never see a formal track event, but for a street car that I will drive to shows wherever and have some fun with on back roads, I feel it is a great setup and well worth the money.

[Stargazer]

Any tips where to buy the AGR or 600DSE box near Orlando(Fl)?
I'll be there next week, for a holiday and hope to get one while in the US...

[CAMAROBOY69]

As a note, this thread inspired me to do a story and I learned a ton of info..

For a street car that is not going to hit the track much use the DSE 600 box. It has a great feel but in GM's effort to make it lighter the shaft is not nearly as strong. Under HARD driving it can deform! For 90% of the cars out there this is not a problem but you should know it.

If your car is gonna be a track star then the AGR box is the way to go. They are really into building race quality stuff and Matt at ARG says he is very close to having a fix for the weaker shaft on the 600 box (I assume a stronger shaft).. the AGR is top shelf parts.

I loved my 600 box on my 69, that was one fine unit and it felt great on the highway and driving around.. Just some info :)
Like always. Excellent write up and I also learned a lot from this thread. How about a write up or some information regarding their manual steering quick ratio boxes? Thats what I would probably be interrested in since I dont have power steering.

[CarlC]

Just a follow-up....

Saturday was the first time the car has been on the track since the -600 box installation. The box seems to have performed well. No issues noticed on the binding issue. The feel, effort, and feedback are much improved over the previous 12.7:1 low-effort box.

[Rick Dorion]

Carl, do you have lap time comparisons with the new wheel/tire package vs the old setup?

[Blown353]

My new 600 box should be here from DSE in a day or so, hopefully I can post driving impressions too. I'm going on a poker run this weekend, my Dad is already saying "we HAVE to be the first ones finished." So it should see some good use.

Mind you, it's a car and motorcycle poker run, but I'll still probably have the field covered. :rotfl:

Hopefully later this year (after I fit a better oilpan and get an intercooler and oil cooler installed) I can also provide a track report. Carl, I like what I'm hearing from your observations.

Troy

[camcojb]

My new 600 box should be here from DSE in a day or so, hopefully I can post driving impressions too. I'm going on a poker run this weekend, my Dad is already saying "we HAVE to be the first ones finished." So it should see some good use.

Mind you, it's a car and motorcycle poker run, but I'll still probably have the field covered. :rotfl:

Hopefully later this year (after I fit a better oilpan and get an intercooler and oil cooler installed) I can also provide a track report. Carl, I like what I'm hearing from your observations.

Troy

It would be if I had ordered it for you!!!!!!! :eek: :smoke:

Jody

[CarlC]

Carl, do you have lap time comparisons with the new wheel/tire package vs the old setup?

Nope. Sorry Rick. There has not been two similar track events to compare.

I'm usually the one who is sceptical of my own subjective opinions, but in this case there's no doubt. The 17" package is light years ahead of the previous 16" setup.

For a non-scientific proof, I can offer the oil pan comparision. The car has many more oil control/pressure difficulties, on the same tracks/corners, with the 17's than the 16's.

[Blown353]

It would be if I had ordered it for you!!!!!!! :eek: :smoke:

Jody

You are so dead. :seizure:

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Carl. Wow - oil control gremlins even with the roadrace pan.

[Blown353]

Thanks, Carl. Wow - oil control gremlins even with the roadrace pan.

Me thinks it's time for multi-stage dry sump. :naughty: