Rivet nut / nut insert tools

[parsonsj]

Hey guys,

Does anybody have any experience with rivet nut or nut insert installation? I've used several different (all manual) types of tools, and its still hit or miss if I'm going to get a good "set".

I'm ready to pull the trigger on an expensive spin-pull-spin tool ($1400 :eek: ), so I was wondering if anybody had any other ideas...

thanks!

jp

[neki67]

90% of the times I use the rivet/insert nut handtool I have, I get a good 'set'. Defenitely good enough for me and I'm using a very modestly priced one (approx. US $80,-).

What kind and/or what size of nuts are you using, John? Mine is suitable up to 8mm (5/16"). Have used a couple of 10mm but those were very difficult to set properly.

René

[Bryce]

I use and sell Marson at my hardware store. I have never had any problems.

I even have used a bolt and nut to expand the riv-nuts.

The key is the hole diameter, it has to be perfect and a tight fit. Also determining the grip length with ensure a perfect installation.

[parsonsj]

I use a variety of sizes, from 10-24 to 3/8-16. The most recent "miss" was a 3/8-16.

I agree with hole size being perfect... I use a a step drill to get nice round holes.

I've tried the plier-type setups, the spin mandrel tools, and custom make your own via bolt and nut. All of the methods work most of the time, but I have about a 10% failure rate, and that's too high for me.

I'm getting ready to install a bunch of inserts on Unfair and I want better accuracy.

jp

[Bow Tie 67]

Are you sure its the tool causing it and not a defective rivnut. How are the failing , spining in the hole?

[Bow Tie 67]

I found 3/8 size works much better with a weld nut.

[parsonsj]

How are they failing , spinning in the hole?Yes, that, or "lifting" where the insert isn't flush to the parent metal, or inserting at a slight angle to the parent metal. I've had all three types of failure happen.


I found 3/8 size works much better with a weld nut.So you've have difficulties with them too, I see. On II Much I would install the insert, then put two small tack welds on either side. But I'm trying to find a method or tool that works 99% of the time that I don't need to weld to have confidence it will work.

jp

[Bryce]

Have you tried the pop rivet type pull tool? About 50 bucks from Marson. I have never had it not work. It works on sizes up to 5/16.

[vintageracer]

I used an expensive at the time hand tool (1996) for installing LOT'S of nutserts on my 66 Shelby when it was built and only had 2 failures in 10 years. My tool is a pull type. The failures were ultimately spinning of the nutsert. Nothing particularly stressed was/is being held on the nutserts (brake lines, wiring harness's expansion tanks etc. Good holes, a good hand tool and they worked great for me. I still have the tool and still use it succesfully to date. I cannot remember the brand name at this time.

I would solicit a lot of information from users on which hand tool may work the best with the most crimp.

Personlly I am 100% sold on using nutserts!

[parsonsj]

Have you tried the pop rivet type pull tool? About 50 bucks from Marson.Yes and no. I've used the McMaster-Carr insert pull-type tool, but found it difficult to get good "crimps".

I would solicit a lot of information from users on which hand tool may work the best with the most crimp. That's what I'm trying to do, lol! The Marson brand is one I'm not familiar with. Is it available online?

[Bryce]

http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_systems/commercial/en/product_browse.asp

Alcoa is the parent company of Marson

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=marson+rivet+nuts+tool&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=MQxTTOGGBoKB8gavrO21BA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQrQQwAA

Here is a google search.

Also, Marshalls industrial hardware in San Diego sells them. We can ship anywhere as well. 858 271 5555.

(full disclosure, this is a hardware store that I have worked at for 5.5 years now. I worked there while I put myself through college, now I work saturdays and every other friday to help out. Word of mouth has advetised that they have a engineer (me) on site that will answer technical questions and answer car questions as well. So its a really fun job!)

[parsonsj]

So is Marson the "Snap-on" of rivet-nut insertion tools? Sounds like I should give it a try.

[Larry Callahan]

I use these all the time

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/3271/=86tdt8

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Bryce]

I would have to say Marson is one of the top brands!

Larry, The only issue with that install tool is if it starts to spin you are screwed. With the pull type the hole can be slightly oversized.

The only issue with the pull type is the room required for the tool.

[Larry Callahan]

I have had a few spin but after that I started making the hole smaller. I also can't find the other style like the one above that used a thrust bearing. Most of the ones I have are the that style but I think the company went belly up.

[Bow Tie 67]

The majority of my experience has been with aviation aluminum rivnuts, using a rivet type squeeze gun. These have a small key under the head that is supposed to prevent rotation, of course the hole has to have a keyway for this " bump ". That type has built in anti rotation, as far as croocked, or not flush, that would stem from the type of tool your using. With the squeeze type you can hold downward pressure and keep it straight will locking the insert. With steel inserts this becomes more critical, as the parent metal is harder to compress. And I would say the manufacturing process is not held to high tolerance in respect to metallurgy, combined these factors and 10% is not bad.

Now my thoughts are just that, mine, but once you step up to a 3/8" course thread, I would assume your attaching something with more subsistence and would not want to rely on a non-keyed insert to preform its job over the long haul, at least not without a small tack weld.

[parsonsj]

I've used 3/8" inserts for exhaust hangers and brackets (oil filter, 'glass bumper, etc.). 5/16 for hanging radiators or ground straps. I certainly wouldn't use them for structural parts like a tranny crossmember or something.

Larry the ones you showed me should be fine if kept lubricated on the thrust surface. I've been looking fondly at a $1500 spin-pull-spin tool....

jp

[Bow Tie 67]

John,

Please dont think I would believe you would use 3/8" for structure. The 3/8" I used was for the rear most exhaust hanger. My exhaust does not have any flex couplings, and is subject to high vibration, so I used weld nuts.

It sounds like your looking at a squeeze puller, if thats the case I think $1500 is outrageous. Now if you plan on doing thousands of pulls, then I might justify the cost.

They are " neat " little fasteners, but I have never seen them used in an area that supports much weight or requires frequent removal. Again, this observation is from an aviation perspective.

I'm curious, how many will you be pulling?

[parsonsj]

I'm curious, how many will you be pulling?I like to use 10-24 inserts for all the boxes (ECM, ABS controller, Traction box, etc.), plus for all the anti-vibration/hold-down straps for wiring and hardlines. I use 1/4-20 for things like radiators/etc. I guess I'm saying I will use a *lot* of them. I just prefer not to have bolts and nuts or metal screws... so nut inserts really make R&R much easier.

I'd guess I'll have 100 or so in the car.

jp

[Patrick]

John,

I have a couple of the Marson tools that you are more than welcome to use. You can swing by and pick up or I can leave with Frank.

Patrick

[parsonsj]

Patrick,

I'd love to borrow one just to see how well it works. Frank says he has some too... but his tools are rarely where he left them. :)

jp

[parsonsj]

Hey guys,

I dropped by and borrowed Frank's Marson tool today. I got home and conducted the test in the photos you can see below. I was disappointed, and the pictures show why. I was still able to spin the insert I installed by the Marson tool. (by threading a bolt all the down and turning with moderate force). And.. it took a *lot* of effort to install -- I really had to bear down, and that was on a work bench with everything at ideal placement and working height.

In the photo, the corner insert (the yellow cad-plated) was installed using my custom tool (that takes 3 hands to manage -- which is why I'm looking for something better) Notice how the Marson-installed insert next to it is taller -- it compressed less -- and its a little off angle-wise.

For comparison I tried one of the Marson inserts that came with the tool -- still lots of effort, and it didn't pass my spin test. The final insert is a nut-sert (my preferred insert), which the Marson tool can't install (not enough grip depth). I've had decent luck with them, but it still takes my custom install tool.

Maybe that's the best I can get... but I was hoping for something better.

(hope all that makes sense)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/DSC01711-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/DSC01719-1.jpg

jp

[parsonsj]

Check out this video

http://www.emhart.com/media/win/POPNutApp.wmv

Sigh.

[mikey]

I've used the marson tool for the last twenty years and never had a failure with it. You might not be setting it correctly. I've loaned it out several times without proper instructions and they have trouble with it. Once I showed them th correct way to use it no problems.

[parsonsj]

Once I showed them the correct way to use it no problems.I'm all ears. It seems pretty simple to me: drill hole, screw insert onto tool, put into hole, squeeze really hard, unscrew tool from insert.

What could I be missing?

jp

[Bryce]

But you need to have the correct grip length for the material thickness. So you need to adjust the tool to make sure you pull tight enough.

[parsonsj]

The sheet metal in the photos is .060 steel (16 gauge). I adjusted the tool to provide the longest grip length possible. I really wanted more grip length, but there wasn't any more adjustment.

Is it possible I had too much grip length? Even though my custom (and hard to use) tool pulled the insert straighter with more spin resistance?

Hell, I may be using the term "grip length" wrong. I wanted the most possible compression of the insert. Does "more compression" correspond to "longer grip length"?

thanks!

[Bow Tie 67]

The sheet metal in the photos is .060 steel (16 gauge). I adjusted the tool to provide the longest grip length possible. I really wanted more grip length, but there wasn't any more adjustment.

Is it possible I had too much grip length? Even though my custom (and hard to use) tool pulled the insert straighter with more spin resistance?

Hell, I may be using the term "grip length" wrong. I wanted the most possible compression of the insert. Does "more compression" correspond to "longer grip length"?

thanks!

Is it possible to thread the nutsert on slightly so you can pull with less effort? If so try pulling in that manor and then screw tool in more and pull for final locking pressure and " straight-ness ".

Your a Virgo I'd guess. :)

[parsonsj]

A Virgo? I've no idea what that means. :angel:

I tried the "pull a little then pull more" method. I'm not really enthused with the results. I tried to go with smaller inserts (8-32) to see if that would take less effort. Not much success there either.

I've got Larry's tool suggestion on order from McMaster... I'll let you know how that works out.

Anybody ever used this tool? ("First time, pays for itself")
http://www.rivetnuttool.com/

jp

[Jim Nilsen]

That's a slick little inclined plane, looks simple enough if you have the room.

I have used the Rivnut brand stuff for years and really like the way they work. I also bought one of the cheap units from J.C. Whitney and so far they have not wanted to spin on me.

Do your rivet nutes have the serated type grip edge on them?

Let us know how the new stuff works out ?

[KWIKND]

We use them a lot on the high end high speed doors we sell. I was always tempted to try sleeve retainer Loctite (Green) prior to installation, once they get crossed or worn, then spin its all over. Have to grind them off. Don't forget the anti-seaze with stainless bolts also.

Good Luck
Dan

[Modo Innovations]

Is it possible I had too much grip length? Even though my custom (and hard to use) tool pulled the insert straighter with more spin resistance?

I would think yes, just like you can have too much grip length on a solid rivet. When a rivet is too long and starts swage it will start to fold over. So if a steel rivnut is too long it will be harder to set correctly than a solid rivet would be.
Are you doing any de-burr on the hole as far as chamfering it? I just flat file the burrs off and no chamfer.

[parsonsj]

Yes, I de-bur the hole... though not on the back side (since that is often inaccessible in the real world, I thought it was "cheating".

I got the McMaster tools that Larry uses just now. I'll give them a try and report back.

jp

[parsonsj]

Ladies and gentlemen: we have a winner!!!

The McMaster tool works very very well. A two handed tool, that uses ordinary wrenches and sockets, and takes about 15 seconds to install. I bought two: one each for 10 and 1/4" inserts.

I'm gonna buy two more for 5/16" and 3/8" inserts.

thanks guys (and especially: thank you Larry!)

jp

[parsonsj]

Here's a link to the website for these tools (McMaster is reselling them):

http://sherex.stage.thomasnet-navigator.com/viewitems/blind-rivet-nuts-installation-tooling-hand-tools/rivet-nut-hand-tool?&bc=100|1010|1061|1062

jp

[MuscleRodz]

The Marsons are a modified pop rivet gun and personally think they suck as a rivnut tool. There are 2 different quality rivnuts also. i have not used anything larger than 1/4", but the good ones will have tit on the back side of the flange. With our setup, you make a notch with the notching tool that the tit sits in to prevent the rivnut from rotating. You may have to go look in A/C spuce to get the good ones. I can post pics of my tool set later if need be. John already knows I got the cool tools

[parsonsj]

John already knows I got the cool toolsOh yeah, Mr. Aircraft Crimper Master. :)

jp

[Larry Callahan]

We install a lot of those at the day job and I now have several of them in MotiV8r. I really like how they work.

[parsonsj]

And sure: let's have a look at these new-fangled anti-rotation rivet nuts. I'd like to know more about them.

jp

[paul67]

I used to make my own yrs ago and to stop the insert spinning was put an anti slip washer between the tool and nutsert,this then gripped the tool to the nutsert.

[parsonsj]

Sure, you need anti-spin when your tool is turning the bolt in the insert to compress it.

The nice thing about the Sherex tool is that the bolt in the insert doesn't spin. So no anti-spin technique is needed.

jp

[carbuff]

Can someone please enlighten me here... I've used Nutserts for years, but these Rivnuts are new to me. From the pictures I've need, I'm not quite sure how the Rivnuts work. The tools I've used for Nutserts are ok for the smaller sizes, as John has said. But for the larger ones, then are a pain.

Is there a case where you would use a Rivnut instead of a Nutsert? Or vice versa? Trying to understand what the real difference in the two are...

Thanx!

[Bryce]

Nutsert are for thicker material. Rivnuts are for sheet metal.

[carbuff]

Thanx Bryce!

[MuscleRodz]

Sorry for not posting a pic sooner, my computer took a dump and have not found my camera software to upload the pics. Here is what we use, found it in the a/c spruce catalog for $130

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[IBDMANN]

Looking at the picture of that mcmaster rivet nut installer. Not sure how it works. Can anyone add a video link of someone using the tool

[parsonsj]

Not a video, but this should give you the idea...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/IMG_0964-1.jpg

[parsonsj]

The bottom wrench is kept still, and the upper wrench "clinches" the rivet-nut into place. It's the best tool I've ever used for rivet nuts, and I've used several (hence the thread) !

jp

[DLinson]

John, if you get into designing laser cut sheet metal parts, you can use the AVK hex rivet nuts.
http://www.avkfasteners.com/products.AH.php (http://www.avkfasteners.com/products.AH.php)

It is an anti rotation nut since it is a hex barrel with the hole in the sheet metal being a hex.

I usually install the rivet nuts with a tool similar to the T-handle tool on this page. I made my own but it works the same. The largest insert I've used is the 1/4-20 round nutserts.

http://www.avkfasteners.com/tools.handtools.php

At work we use the automated guns.


Dennis

[parsonsj]

I usually install the rivet nuts with a tool similar to the T-handle tool on this page. I made my own but it works the same. The largest insert I've used is the 1/4-20 round nutsertsDennis! The man who introduced me to rivet nuts and McMaster-Carr a decade ago!!

I've seen the hex versions, but as you say, it's not practical for us home-users. I've used the above tool to insert 3/8-16 rivet nuts in my C6 frame rails for a tow hook, and I was able to get 38 lb-ft of torque on the bolts using those inserts. They really work well.

jp

[MonzaRacer]

Strange, riv-nut and Poly-nut are very similar pieces made by different companies. I have had a Marson kits for several years after having a bed liner company leave a bunch of the longer ones using 8mm x 1.25 threads. These had large flat washer type heads. I used old bolts and flat washers to set some of these.
Many a few years later I picked up the Marson kit in STD, and in last few years a set in metric, which I use at work. I get my inserts from NAPA and rarely have a bad set if you remember to screw them up tight against the gun, if not you will not get a proper set. Also the insert mandrel has to be set with threaded tip flush at end of mandrel.
also using a dial or digital caliper and using fractional drill bits or letter or number bits to get a tight a hole as possible is much better.
I can also say some red lock tight cant hurt or even sleeve retainers compound possibly.
Again properly installed I have rarely had issue unless you try to install fasteners cross threaded or un-lubricated.
Nickkle based anti-seize can help, as do shake proof washers or serrated lock washers.
Again proper drill techniques and proper tool set up allow a much tighter grip.
Also I have tinned the area with steel inserts, and ran a small amount of solder around some too. Had to do that when buddy at work didnt install a few right. Yuo can also use wicking locking compound.