When should i get subframe connectors?

[Hotrod69]

I know subframe connectors are an essential for my 69 camaro. however i was told to put them on last, once the car is complete. I plan on later in the future converting my tranny from a Th-350r to a tko600, some hotchkis suspension upgrades, and baer brakes, possibly a supercharger once i have the money to do so. I do not plan on upgrading the engine out of the small block range (right now i have a 350 sbc). Is it better to hold off on the subframe connectors or should i get them now?


Thanks.

[Draginutz]

I would do them now. Would you build a house with no foundation? Just my $.02

[ArtosDracon]

Sooner rather than later will help ensure you don't twist the body doing something stupid but fun.

[79T/Aman]

now! with solid body bushings

[6'9"Witha69]

NOW. Especially if you plan to do DSE style connectors, you don't want to do that to a finished car.

[formula]

whoever told you to put them on last has no idea what they're talking about. keep that in mind when they begin to suggest future modifications.

[MrQuick]

whoever told you to put them on last has no idea what they're talking about. keep that in mind when they begin to suggest future modifications.
I would not got that far....it depends in what context it was made.

I would not install subframe connectors on a bare shell with out the proper steps taken. Frame table or after it is certain that it is secure and level.
The proper way in the past was to install them on a completed car with full weight on the car. IE, car on its wheels and level.

Once you start welding that body will move a bit if left loose and a tweeked body due to subframe connector installation then becomes a huge problem.



OP, I would do them now unless you plan on swapping or modifying your subframe. Having the full build plans would accurately determine the order of work.
vince

[BMR Tech]

Definitely should be one of the first mods. Since the entire front half of the car is only bolted to the rear half with 4 bolts the F platform is notoriously flexible. I have always recommended solid body mount bushings and through-the-floor subframe connectors for these cars.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/SFC006_large-1.jpg

[Hotrod69]

Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. thats what i thought until this idiot told me otherwise lol. I was leaning towards getting the Hotchkis subframe connectors, due to the fact not too much wielding is required, and i dont have to cut the floor pans up. any suggestions on this? (i figure the less cut up work i do, the less room for error.)

[MuscleRodz]

Hotchkis sfc are pretty good for ones that do not protrude through the floor. I would do them when you plan on the rest of the Hotchkis suspension upgrades

[Hotrod69]

My suspension upgrades im gonna have to buy one at a time due to the fact i don't have the cash to buy it all at once but this is what im planning on:
Hotchkis-SFC, font and rear sway with sway bar brace, shock tower brace, and chassis max handle bars.
and i was gonna throw on some DSE A-Arms.

I also came across Competition Engineerings non-wielding sfc's. any input on these? are they any good?

[MuscleRodz]

I have seen them, removed them, Hotchkis are nicer

[AM.MSCL]

According to the install instructions for the Hotchkis SFC for a Convertible the car is suppose to be setting on all 4 wheels and drive height. You then install the SFC while setting on all 4 wheels.
I would recommend talking to the SFC company you plan to buy and determine when is the best time to do it.

[frojoe]

What the person that told you this might have meant is to install them when the car is "done" as in with all 4 wheels on the groound.

If you are installing parts as you go and the car is mostly together, it's a much better idea to install the weld-in connectors with weight on all the wheels as opposed to up in the air with jackstands on the floor/framerails.

However, if you are doing a big complete build on the car and tearing it down real far, you can just do this while the Camaro is a light shell.

[6'9"Witha69]

I also came across Competition Engineerings non-wielding sfc's. any input on these? are they any good?
Not very good at all.

[MuscleRodz]

According to the install instructions for the Hotchkis SFC for a Convertible the car is suppose to be setting on all 4 wheels and drive height. You then install the SFC while setting on all 4 wheels.
I would recommend talking to the SFC company you plan to buy and determine when is the best time to do it.that is because without the top, the body has little torsional rigidity and if you tighten them down wrong, they could preload the body and cause issues. You could have it setting on jacks under the suspension, or on a drive on lift to make installation accessable

[ROBS6T8]

I have the bolt in CE SFC's and have not had any issues with them. Of course I'm not driving the snotballs out of it yet. They were easy to install. Don't hang down much. And cheap enough to replace later if I need the weld in type down the road.

[absintheisfun]

according to Hotchkis's website:


1 – Before performing the subframe connector installation, the vehicle must be completely assembled with all body and component parts installed (e.g. fenders, hood, quarterpanels, trunk, full interior, engine, glass, etc.). Basically, the subframe connectors should be one of the last components installed on your vehicle. Reason being is you want the vehicle settled with all of it’s own final weight. The car’s body is always in constant tension, with forces pushing or pulling within the chassis & body. You want to make sure these forces don’t
change after you install the subframe connectors.

[AM.MSCL]

according to Hotchkis's website:


1 – Before performing the subframe connector installation, the vehicle must be completely assembled with all body and component parts installed (e.g. fenders, hood, quarterpanels, trunk, full interior, engine, glass, etc.). Basically, the subframe connectors should be one of the last components installed on your vehicle. Reason being is you want the vehicle settled with all of it’s own final weight. The car’s body is always in constant tension, with forces pushing or pulling within the chassis & body. You want to make sure these forces don’t
change after you install the subframe connectors.


Back in my days of racing Camaros this was the rule for all the guys before welding in subframes or rollcages. We would even go as fas as making sure the car was 4 corner level and start the install.

[Hotchkis]

I know subframe connectors are an essential for my 69 camaro. however i was told to put them on last, once the car is complete. I plan on later in the future converting my tranny from a Th-350r to a tko600, some hotchkis suspension upgrades, and baer brakes, possibly a supercharger once i have the money to do so. I do not plan on upgrading the engine out of the small block range (right now i have a 350 sbc). Is it better to hold off on the subframe connectors or should i get them now?


Thanks.


Thanks to everyone in the thread for recommending our Subframe Connectors.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

As mentioned, we always recommend welding in subframe connectors (http://www.hotchkis.net/6769_camarofirebird_sub_frame_connectors_coupe.htm l) towards the end of the build. Ours are designed so you can bolt them in if absolutely necessary, but for maximum strength it's best to weld the bolt holes and if you're committed do a small perimeter weld around the front and rear backets. Because the welding is minimal and there is no cutting or relocating required, Hotchkis subframe installation is easily done on a freshly finished car. As for when to install exactly...how about "before the first burnouts"?

Many of our customers have had luck with Muffler shops doing the install (http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_files/400740084009instructions1282033244file.pdf). Just remember that it's critical that the rack they use is a drive-on rack where the car sits on the wheels with its full weight. Lifts that pick the car up by the frame don't work as the frame will not be settled correctly.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[ProdigyCustoms]

Hotchkis is our favorite under the car frame connector we sell the most.

[Hotchkis]

Hotchkis is our favorite under the car frame connector we sell the most.


aw Frank....thank you.

[rfalker1]

Appreciate this thread, just bought a pair, but reading the comments made me feel like a dummy for not buying them already

[rohrt]

Yo Hotchkis,

Do you have any pics like that from a convertible?
Do you get the same ground clearence as the coup?
Is it also Hotchkis recomendation that solid bushing be used?

I would like to see a close up of where the welding is done in the back and how the connector is bolted in the front.

I see now why you would want to wait for the car to be done before puting in these kind of subframe connectors. If you hadn't ran your fuel line or break line you would be screwed and have to cut them back out. Or in my case upgrading to a 1/2 line.

[icemanrd19]

Do them early
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/675f51b0-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/aab67685-1.jpg

or do them why you are installing a
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/ebf648f7-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/e7d41c4b-1.jpg


:)

[Hotchkis]

Yo Hotchkis,

Do you have any pics like that from a convertible?
Do you get the same ground clearence as the coup?
Is it also Hotchkis recomendation that solid bushing be used?

I would like to see a close up of where the welding is done in the back and how the connector is bolted in the front.

I see now why you would want to wait for the car to be done before puting in these kind of subframe connectors. If you hadn't ran your fuel line or break line you would be screwed and have to cut them back out. Or in my case upgrading to a 1/2 line.

Rohrt – The first and second gen F-body connectors install very much the same, so if you watch this video, you’ll get a good idea of how to install them on your Camaro.

http://youtu.be/NcCwHBhd8Jw

The convertible connectors fit the contours of the stock floor pan snugly and have the same clearance as our coupe connectors. We do include new polyurethane subframe bushings for the two rearmost mounts. We suggest replacing all of the original rubber subframe bushings, but some people don’t put the extra effort into the installation. If you want to install solid body bushings, you’ll get even more control of body flex, but it’s not required to reap big benefits from installing our connectors. These are the only connectors for the convertible with great ground clearance without cutting the floorpans and they still allow for removal of the rear leaf spring after they are installed…some other convertible connectors don’t offer this as an option.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Here’s the page on our website with more pictures of the connectors: http://www.hotchkis.net/6769_camarofirebird_convertible_sub_frame_connecto rs.html

And downloadable instructions with lots of great images:

http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_files/4007.pdf

[6D9 Matt]

Gonna be putting in a 12-bolt and some new suspension components in the fall/winter, I will definitely be hitting Hotchkis up for some SFC and probably other stuff too! Good thread right here...

[TheBandit]

This sticky has some interesting data on subframe connectors.
https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?55201-Torsional-rigidity-measuring-and-increasing

I would be very interested to hear how the effectiveness of the underfloor vs. throughfloor connectors compare. Having all the additional welded connection to the floor seems like it would stiffen things up considerably on the throughfloor design.

For those with cages, are you tying your B-pillar into the connectors directly?

[rohrt]

The PDF was just what I was looking for. Thanks

[icemanrd19]

add this to the mix too. Just some added stiffness
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/DSCN2521-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/DSCN2593-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/DSCN2595-1.jpg

[TheBandit]

Nice job iceman. How did you end up doing the back end? And what size rectangular tubing did you use?

[PhillipM]

That looks like 2x3... I'm pretty sure they are just DSE ones no?

[piratebaseball]

Ok, now that some people are saying do them early and some people are saying do them late...thanks for confusing me! My 67 camaro is in bare shell. I am putting on the front subframe with DSE solid body mounts. I was planning on going ahead and cutting the floor now while nothing is on or around. Is this a big mistake? Should suspension be fully built, car on the ground with engine and trans before I start cutting and welding in the DSE subframe connectors? Any body who really knows please help before I bid on the DSE subframe connectors tomorrow on ebay : ) Thanks guys!
Landon