C4 or C5 Conversion

[PT Dave]

Is the C5 Brake System (Fronts) that much better than the C4 ?
If so, what are the advantages ? I have a C4 set-up and I would like to install them on my '69 Camaro. Does anyone make a caliper bracket to do this ? What MasterCylinder should I use ? Aftermarket ??

[Leadfoot1]

Dave,

I'm new here as of tonight. I saw no one replied to your post. If you have not found your part yet, try speedtech performance they sell a bolt on bracket for about 125$ or you can build your own from a template available on David Pozzi's web site (just type his name in your browser)

I'm going with the pre fabbed with a C5 Conversion.

Hope it helps!

Lead

Ho Yeah! I know you can use either a disc or drum spindle with the speedtech bracket, but does anybody know if the bracket will work with an aftermarket 2" dropped spindle???

[yody]

I believe the C5's are a stiffer design with bigger pistons. Do some searches, the answers are out their.

[MrQuick]

dissipates heat faster too...

[CarlC]

Combined with the right pad, fluid, and MC, the C4 caliper in 13"F/12"R is a very capable system.

MC size will depend on if it is boosted or manual. Tell us more about what you are looking for.

[rizzos442]

I have the front C4 on my 69 442. I also have a hydroboost braking system. I will tell you that the C5 is much better than the C4. It is all in the calipers. The rotors are very similar, but the calipers of the C5's are 100 times better tha nthe C4's. During this winter, I am swapping in a C5 system up front. What you WILL need are new upper and lower control arms. I have the sc&c uppers with the Global West lowers. You can not get the corvette 13" rotor on there with stock control arms...not to mention that you will have MAJOR camber issues even if you could. The offset ball joints of the tubular arms allow the spindle to accomidate the rotors. You will also need much more than that! Hubs, proportioning valve, whatnot.

I looked into the speed tech performance brackets, but they are aluminum. My rule of thumb is no aluminum on my braking or suspension system. Just my preference. So I found another company that makes the brackets.
http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10083
They also sell complete bolt on kits.
The other one that is good is touring classics. It is also a direct bolt on, but again, they are using aluminum brackets.

Do you have front discs on there now? If not, you may need new spindles. If you have front drums, kee the hubs because you will need to have them turned down to 5.8" OD so that the C4 or C5 calipers could fit over them. There is much to decipher here.
IF you wanted to do a tall spindle swap, now is the time to do it. I did not because I wanted to keep it an a-body...but I do have a set of b-body disc spindles if you want them??
If you use a set of b-body spindles, then you need these brackets...
http://www.kore3.com/proddetail.php?prod=10081
They are cheaper because the tall spindles conversion is much more common.

Either way, it is up to you. You have many options and decisins to make right now. Bottom line is that you can not do such a conversion with stock a-arms...I tried!

[Leadfoot1]

Rizzos442

Thanks for the input! I saw many cars with the Speedtech modification and a lot used the stock A-arm...Closer, my friend has a 68 Beaumont and he drives it on 13"'s (C4) with stock A's. What would prevent you from running them?

The bracket link you provided is great! i just read the big lines but its even cheaper than the Speedtech! I'll go back and study this. (I agree that steel is real)

There are so many options available on that swap it gets confusing, Speedtech offers the complete parts list on their web site and its a complete bolt on with parts from www.gmpartsdirect.com (http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/)

Its the American touring specialties caliper that i don't like (i prefer having 'Corvette' written on mine and having them red @ la Z-06!) Just a cosmetic issue but there is some of that in that swap too.

About the tall spindle, i tought B-bodies only fitted Chevelles, That means Camaro and Chevelle spindles are the same? I have two sets of drum set ups + 1 disc ( all complete) Damn! Now need a Caprice set!!!

Oh wait a minute! i get it, if you run the tall spindle, its then that you need A-arm, to correct camber gains, otherwise you'll have to run the 1" + of shims. I remember reading on that from Team Chevelle when i had my '70.

But otherwise you should be OK then. (?)

Alright then, correct me if i'm wrong now,

Caprice spindle,
A-Arms,
Bracket of choice,
13 inch C5 rotor (1.25" thick right?)
Z-06 Calipers,
+ all little things and i'm there?

Or instead,

Camaro/Chevelle spindle,
Bracket of choice,
13 inch C5 rotor (1.25" thick right?)
Z-06 Calipers,
+ all little things.

That leaves only one other question...Would any of those set ups work with a dropped spindle? (like Heidts?)

Thanks!

Lead

[rizzos442]

OK, let me address the issues one at a time.

ALL the brackets that you have addressed will bolt to the stock spindle. BUT, in order to place a 13" rotor on a stock spindle, you must upgrade your upper control arm. There is no possible way that you can get a 13" rotor on there without hitting the outer portin of the control arm. The lower control arm replacemnt is a good idea because the tubular control arms are a hellova lot stronger than the stockers. AND if you are doing this conversion, do it once! I still say that there is more to that story than just that...but remember the a-bodies are different from all others. Maybe his is not an a-body?? YOU and I have a-bodies! We did this conversion on a G-Body and it worked without any modifications to the arms because he already had the tall spindle, which will accomidate the larger rotors without modifications. The a-bodies will not accomidate anything over 11", while the b,g,f will allow for a 13" rotor to be used while keeping the arms in tact. Taller spindles were used at the factories, so the arms already have the acmber adjucted correctly.

If a parts list is what you desire, here is the complete parts list that you will need, minus the brackets...
GM Part #


Quantity

Description

12530682


1

Right front caliper (standard C5)

12530683


1

Left front caliper (standard C5)

10445856


1

Right front rotor

10445857


1

Left front rotor

12455799


2

Pad abutment bracket

22163727


2

Front caliper brake hose

12530697


4

Pad abutment guide pin

12530703


4

Guide pin boot

22163795


2

Banjo bolt

10139097


4

Banjo bolt copper washers
























GM parts list notes:

· If you want the red Z06 calipers, use Part #s 88895128 and 88895129 in place of caliper #s above. The cost is the same.

· The guide pin bolts come with the calipers, so the part number is not listed above.

The C5 calipers come fully assembled.
I got everything from gmpartsdirect.com and spent $347 shipped. I went with the red z06 style.
I also prefered having Corvette on mine, but the other calipers are different tahn the stockers. The stock z06 calipers are really tall. Most of the newer ones are not so tall and running a 17" wheel is not a problem...but you may face this issue with the stock calipers. I have Centerline Sunray 17" wheels. I will not know if I have a problem until I put them on. Templates only give you an "estimate" not the reality. So be careful there...

B-bodies fit almost everything. We did this conversion on a 69 Camaro efore summer. We swapped i nthe b-body spindles and there is a wide ariety of brackets for those. Anyways, it bolted straight up with no problems. What the problem he is having is that he can not stop and he has my old 12" booster. Our next step is to swap him in a hydroboost. He was waiting for mine to see how mine worked and he loved it. I can lock up all 4 wheels and I could not even lock up 2 before! ALL a-body spindles are the same. You an put G,F, or B-body spindles on an a-body car, but you MUST replace the upper control arm in order to do this. Because it is a taller spindle, you need the ball joint offset to correct the camber. Imagine driving on only 30% of your tire...that is what would occur. I have never, ever heard of someone using shims to correct camber with these a-arms.

If you have more ?'s just ask. I have the day off...so I am just moping around the house.

The other issue is hubs. Keep the drum setup you have to use the hubs from it. I got my hubs from a 69 Cehville and machined them on the lathe at the high school for free (one of the perks of being a teacher/coach). You will need this for the rotor to slip over.

[CarlC]

I will tell you that the C5 is much better than the C4. It is all in the calipers. The rotors are very similar, but the calipers of the C5's are 100 times better tha nthe C4's.

Can you please elaborate on this?

[MarkM66]

From what I remember when doing my C4 conversion, the C5 rotor sets back less then the C4. So I don't see how it would ever come in contact with the stock control arm.

As a matter of fact, the Touring Classics kit is based on the C5 stuff.

http://www.touring-classics.com/Brake%20Kits.htm

[rizzos442]

THe C5 calipers are heavy duty calipers which are much larger tha nthe C4's. I am certainly no expert on this, but I can tell you from experience that the c4's need some extra power to get them to lock up and the c5's do not need as much, from what I am told.


I also do not know which rotors are deeper. At the time, I only had c5's and they hit my upper control arm and would not spin freely. I also think that Noel, at touring-classics.com, recommends upper control arms also. When I first looked into doing this, I spoke with him on several occassions along with Marcus from sc$c and they both told me the same thing..get new uppers and I will be fine with the kits. I did, and I am.
I do know a few people that had to get Noel's Hybrid kit. The c5 rotors with the c4 calipers in order to clear their 17" wheels. If this is the case with me, I will move up to 18's because I believe that the c5 calipers are that much better than the c4's. There are many write-up on this issue. Like I said, I only have the c4's on my car and can speak for them. I will tell you that once I installed my hydroboost, I was definitely a lot better with confidence and braking...but I am still switching to c5's.
I have LS1's in the rear and I am very happy with those. 12" rotors and LS1 calipers make a good combo in the rear.
I have a 455 Big Block Olds with a Tremec THO 600 and I do NOT run a parking brake either. Once I install a parking brake system, things may change i nthe rear, but for now, I am very pleased wit hthe rear setup I chose.
Again ,I can not speak for others that have c5's but it really does make a difference...I will definitely post a review when I get it swapped in. It should be a few weeks at most!

[Leadfoot1]

Markm66,

About;

'From what I remember when doing my C4 conversion, the C5 rotor sets back less then the C4. So I don't see how it would ever come in contact with the stock control arm.'

That's what i tought too + the C4 rotor is a ''real" 13 inch and the C5 is a 12.7" and nobody i heard from had issues with the C4's...

Rizzo,

Sorry if i got you confused, i sold my '70 Chevelle and now have a '69 Camaro on the rotisserie. I'm basically building a back half car with a tri 4 bar set up in the rear with coil overs all around, so i have F-body spindles right now (drums and discs) that are still the same as yours i guess (A-body).

I heard i'll have a hard time getting more than 900psi of pressure without hydroboost so i'm looking at this too, heard of mustang cobra (year?) unit as a nice fit?

I basically want 13 inch crossdrilled/slotted rotors in front and 12" in the rear with as much GM parts in than cash out.

Now, wondering if your point of 'Tubular arm necessity' still applies to F body? They are part of my plan anyway (uppers) but i'd like to clear that up anyway (it might also help others!)

See, speedtech sells them, (Arms) but they don't even mention you need them to run their bracket and C5 rotors and calipers...
I will try to contact them i guess.

Lead.

[MarkM66]

Lead,

On my '70 Nova, which uses all the same parts as your Camaro. I used C4 calipers and rotors up front, and LT-1 Camaro (93-97) calipers and rotors rear. I just bought rebuilt Cardone calipers from the parts store. Basically it's the same set up as Baer, at about half the price. Look on David Pozzi's web site for a list of part numbers on the swap. Or I can help you out more if you need it.

[yody]

do not need as much, from what I am told.



I think this pretty much sums up his debate on the c4 v c5

[Leadfoot1]

Markm66,

Thanks, what kind of bracket did you use to mount the caliper? Did you run into any rotor clearance issues? I'm familiar with David's page and saw his lists, (the C5 install link seems broken, could not get to it) they have about the same on Speedtech's. It is mostly C4 oriented i think, then again, what exactly are the differences, i saw u can use C4 C5 rotors with one or the other, is it the same with calipers?

Did you 'have' to put a tube arm in?

I'm going with a C5 because its the set up today as i'm doing this now not two years ago otherwise it could have only been regular discs.

I found the speedtech C5 bracket at 105$ from ecklers Camaro vs 135$ Speedtech direct.

No one is trying this one;

HOW ABOUT A DROPPED SPINDLE??????Anybody feel free to chip in!

:help:

Lead.

Man, i seem to have so many questions about this swap!!! But like Rizzo said it best, i want to do it ONCE!

[Leadfoot1]

Hey guy's...Thanks again,

I'm a newbbie here and first replied to PTdave's post about his bracket at the top of this topic. His he still on this site? I don't see him posting.
Just wondering if he got his project rolling?

Lead.

[rizzos442]

I do think that your best bet would be to call the actual compaines. Rather than listening to me blab about my conversin or john blabbling about his, hear it direct. That way, if it doesn't work, you can call them back and raise hell!

I found that when I called Marcus at sc&c, he pretty much set me straight. Here is what he wrote me and convinced me to keep the stock a-body spindles...then I called him and ordered his kit.

Hi Tony,

Sounds like you have a pretty fair handle on things. One biggie though,
toss the B spindles. They`re the root of a number of problems. Go back to
the original spindles that were originally intended to use modular brake
components and have steering arms the proper length and kinda close to the
right height. The B spindle is WAY off. There are any number of places
selling brackets to adapt C5 brakes to the stock spindles or you can just
buy a complete Baer set up. We fix the geometry with our Street Comp Stage 2
package. Tall upper and lower modular ball joints and fully adj. tubular
upper control arms. Check out the web site www.SCandC.com (http://www.SCandC.com) and look up the G
body Stg.2. It uses the same basic type of components as the A body version
(which will be on our new website going up next month). The ball joints are
our streetable,muscle car specific versions of Nextel Cup race pieces and
the adj. arms are also well race and street proven. The combination of parts
raises the too low roll center,reverses the backward camber curves and
combined with our recomended alignment specs improves the factory bumpsteer
by around 80%. There`s no hooplah involved,this is hardcore stuff and good
solid design that just plain works. If you want tubular lowers our package
will work with any brand you like just let me know if the ones you`re going
to use have non stock type ball joints so I can include the proper ones. The
A body Stg.2 runs between $589.90 and up depending on options. If you have
any other questions feel free to e-mail or give us a call at the shop.
Thanks, Marcus

[rizzos442]

Leadfoot, you are right. I am a high school teacher and I coach 2 sports for the extra $$. My wife also does the same as I do. We are certainly not rich...so when I spend the $$ on my 442, I NEED to make sure that I am spending it only once. If I were to do the a-arms twice, she would have killed me. It is bad enough that I am swapping in a C5 braking system, but I have my C4 already sold for EXACTLY what I have into it. That is the only reason that I could continue this project. I am kinda a stickler for things being done only once, but there are times where we just want to upgrade what we already have.

[CarlC]

Unless the car is going to be run very hard on a road coarse your currently owned C4 components will work very well if the system is correctly spec'ed.

If you were starting from scratch, or if the C4 to C5 conversion cost is not a consideration, then I would say C5. If cost is a cosideration, the C4 components will work beyond the capabilities of most cars and drivers. Mine go for 20+ minutes on a road coarse with few issues, and NAPA carries rebuild kits for $12.

Here's some info on how to do the F/R C4 swap using all GM components:

http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html

My website has info on the Mustang Hydraboost.

[MarkM66]

Lead. If you want C5 stuff. Then I can't help you with that conversion. My advice would be to buy the touring classics kit.

If you want C4. I used the caliper bracket template on Pozzi's site, and cut it myself. You will have to modify your spindle. For the rear caliper brackets, just follow Carls post.

[hectore3]

The C-5 calipers are better if you choose to do longer harder laps on a road course. But i would not feel out gunned with a C-4 style caliper. Other things come into braking performance. Like the type of tire and if you have air ducting to the rotor etc.