LS weight savings

[CCC]

I am just starting to plan a build and could use some advice. A friend sent me here and said you guys knew your stuff.

I want to build the most useful car possible. I have a Chevy 454 but was curious about reading about weight savings with the LS motor. What kind of real world advantage would the LS give me over my 454. My 454 has a lot of torque and HP, more so than a standard LS. Does the weight of the motor make that much difference or could you offset the negative handling effects by relocating the 454?

[CCC]

Also looking for the best possible 2nd gen camaro suspension. Wow there are a lot of options now. DSE, Speedtech, Schwartz and others I can't think right now.

How does one go about deciding which to pick?

[SixD7]

I've often wondered about the weight savings too. I'm no expert but I think the better handling will out weigh the power of the 454 and you can always build an LS to make as much power as you want.

[79-TA]

On a tighter autocross there is no question. There's hardly enough room to put down the power from the most mild small block so handling is definitely the priority.

On a road course, much of what you gain on a straight can be instantly lost if the car is not competent in the braking zones.

I'll let the actual LS swappers bring the figures, but I think the weight savings from a traditional small block short block to an LS shortblock is about 90 pounds.


As far as making power goes, the LS offers much better top end breathing and cylinder head options. This advantage is so significant that comapanies now make hybrid blocks that have traditional SBC bottom ends but are meant for LS cylinder heads.

If you do run the 454, save yourself at least 50 pounds up front by running aluminum cylinder heads.

[jeff s]

LS is about 390 lbs.
Old school small block is about 575.
BBC is 675

[CamaroAJ]

LS is about 390 lbs.
Old school small block is about 575.

your saying there is 185 lbs. different between the two? are we talking iron heads and iron intake?

[BuzzKillian]

What is the weight of a Big Block?

[jeff s]

675-685 for bbc

[jeff s]

your saying there is 185 lbs. different between the two? are we talking iron heads and iron intake?
iron heads alloy intake SBC 575 lbs

[SixD7]

Would most agree that unless you have an original motor to put in a car the advantages of an LS motor are worth it?

[sik68]

There was an article in Hot Rod magazine a while back, called "crate motor shootout" or something similar, where they spent a day at the strip making passes, and swapping powerplants...multiple LS engines, sbcs and bbcs. They also posted vehicle weights for each combo. All said and done, the LS combos were netting about 50-70 lbs less than the sbc combos if I remember right. I'll try to see if I have the issue tomorrow, unless someone can find the article online first.

EDIT: 68Formula Posted the Article on Page 2.

[Vegas69]

I'll take my aluminum big block over these LSX's. The average power and consistency is hard to beat.

[gmjj13]

I'll take my aluminum big block over these LSX's. The average power and consistency is hard to beat.


+1 mines not all aluminum, but i'll take it over a LS any day.

[sik68]

From Hot Rod Magazine:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Vehicle Weights:
LS7: 3420
LS3: 3334
LS327: 3386
ZZ4: 3360
ZZ383: 3360
427: 3520
572: 3560

The SBC's are right there when it comes to overall vehicle weight. Perhaps the LS engines are backed up by heavier transmissions, I don't know. All I see is that the LS's don't seem to lighten the car as much as expected over a traditional small block build.

I can't find the online article right now. Here's my source
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=153639&highlight=chevelle+hot+rod

EDIT: 68Formula Posted the Article on Page 2.

[tommycomfort]

Looks like the small blocks both have aluminum heads.

[Vegas69]

That's interesting to see the LS and small blocks so close. My ZL-1 would put the car at 3370. When I was researching the block I found that it's 150lbs lighter than a gen vi steel block identical to the 427 big block above.

[Blue67gto]

The SBC's are right there when it comes to overall vehicle weight. Perhaps the LS engines are backed up by heavier transmissions, I don't know. All I see is that the LS's don't seem to lighten the car as much as expected over a traditional small block build.


even if they are the same weight as a package, it would make the engine lighter and the transmission heavier. thus moving they weight further back in the chassis.

[4MuscleMachines]

The LS engines also have a lower center of gravity. More of their mass is concentrated lower than traditional SBCs or BBCs.

[sik68]

even if they are the same weight as a package, it would make the engine lighter and the transmission heavier. thus moving they weight further back in the chassis.



The LS engines also have a lower center of gravity. More of their mass is concentrated lower than traditional SBCs or BBCs.

Excuses, excuses. :razz:

[Mkelcy]

That's interesting to see the LS and small blocks so close. My ZL-1 would put the car at 3370. When I was researching the block I found that it's 150lbs lighter than a gen vi steel block identical to the 427 big block above.

I see the numbers, but a 26 pound difference between an LS3 and an aluminum headed SBC doesn't make sense given the aluminum block and the composite manifold of the LS3.

According to the GMPP catalog, the lightest 9.025" deck SBC block is 181 pounds; an LS3 block is about 110 pounds. Something's not right.

[sik68]

I see the numbers, but a 26 pound difference between an LS3 and an aluminum headed SBC doesn't make sense given the aluminum block and the composite manifold of the LS3.

According to the GMPP catalog, the lightest 9.025" deck SBC block is 181 pounds; an LS3 block is about 110 pounds. Something's not right.


I swear, it's gotta be all those coils. They should have stuck with 1 :p

[68Formula]

Same trans was used across the board (I'm guessing an adapter was needed for the LSx engines?).

Not sure exactly what the difference, but a few ideas:

LS7 has a dry sump system.
LS327 was an iron block.

Here's the article:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_0810_gm_crate_engine_tests/zz572_720r_lsx454.html

[formula]

I see the numbers, but a 26 pound difference between an LS3 and an aluminum headed SBC doesn't make sense given the aluminum block and the composite manifold of the LS3.

According to the GMPP catalog, the lightest 9.025" deck SBC block is 181 pounds; an LS3 block is about 110 pounds. Something's not right.


I'm witchu- something seems like it's missing.

However, you can do a ton to compensate for a boatanchor-er, big block under the hood if you're more interested in balance and handling prowess than overall weight savings. A near-stock BBC 2nd gen is probably approaching 58/42 weight distribution-- moving as much extra weight rearward and eliminating weight as forward as possible will help bring things much closer to neutral. If you want to stick with the BBC, maybe consider an aluminum core support and relocating your battery to the trunk. Fiberglass or carbon fiber front panels can help a ton as well.

As for the other, nearly-completely ignored question you asked-- picking one single "best" suspension setup is tough. What do you want to do with the car?

[Vegas69]

I see the numbers, but a 26 pound difference between an LS3 and an aluminum headed SBC doesn't make sense given the aluminum block and the composite manifold of the LS3.

According to the GMPP catalog, the lightest 9.025" deck SBC block is 181 pounds; an LS3 block is about 110 pounds. Something's not right.

Are you saying you don't believe everything you read? My block is also 110lbs. David Pozzi mentioned an LS3 weighs 425lbs in Mary's thread. Mine supposed to be around 500 lbs. Very well could be some extra electronics between the LS and Small Block. I still think we all worry about weight a little to much. Lighter is clearly better, but most guys won't realize the gains enough to worry about it.

[Mkelcy]

Are you saying you don't believe everything you read? My block is also 110lbs. David Pozzi mentioned an LS3 weighs 425lbs in Mary's thread. Mine supposed to be around 500 lbs. Very well could be some extra electronics between the LS and Small Block. I still think we all worry about weight a little to much. Lighter is clearly better, but most guys won't realize the gains enough to worry about it.

Those numbers sound about right. You've got the same weight block, but heavier crank, rods, pistons and heads.

I remember wondering about the weights when I first read that "shootout" article.

[ace_xp2]

Found this years ago, his read of a totally bare motor was 365lbs:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=141603


I weighed my disassembled LS1 today. I weighed it in 3 sections due to the fact of fitting it on the digital scale. I believe the total weight of all three sections together to be plus or minus 5 lbs. either way, but probably if anything minus because of the box I had to put everything in and it was weighed twice and also the box the new piston kit was in. I didn’t included the power steering pump or A/C compressor because some of you won’t be using that, and I wanted a to be able to use this info to figure an apples to apples assessment. I also didn’t include the flywheel because I plan to use a Fidanza 12.5 aluminum flywheel. I believe a steel flywheel is about 45 lbs. Total weight of all three sections was 365.5 lbs. If you add my flywheel that would be total of 378 lbs. If you factor in the P.S. pump assembly maybe another 15 lbs. then your at 393 lbs. factor in the A/C compressor and pluming maybe another 20 lbs. then your at 413 lbs.

Here is a break down of what exactly was weighed in each section:

Section 1:
Bare LS6 block with main caps and bolts

Total weight of section 1 = 107 lbs.

Section 2:
Rods and bolts
Intake, throttle body, injectors and rail
Oil pan, pickup tube, windage tray, and oil pump
Front timing cover, timing chain and upper gear
Rear block cover with rear main seal
Both valve covers, coil packs, and plug wires
Camshaft, lifters, valley cover, and gaskets
Starter, water pump with pulley
Harmonic balancer and pulley
Accessory bracket, belt tensioner bracket and pulley.
Big green recycle box to put everything in

Total weight of section 2 including the green box = 119.5 lbs.

Section 3:
Crankshaft
Both cylinder heads, with valves, springs, and rockers
Forged Mahle pistons, with pins and rings including packing box
Alternator and pulley
Bags of assembly bolts
Big green box to put everything in again

Total weight of section 3 including the green box and piston box = 139

[tazzz25906112]

Are you saying you don't believe everything you read? My block is also 110lbs. David Pozzi mentioned an LS3 weighs 425lbs in Mary's thread. Mine supposed to be around 500 lbs. Very well could be some extra electronics between the LS and Small Block. I still think we all worry about weight a little to much. Lighter is clearly better, but most guys won't realize the gains enough to worry about it.

I'm kinda bummed out that i didn't get a number on my either,,,, but I agree the Aluminum Big blocks are sure fun and any weight is more than made up for in all the other gains....

[68Formula]

any weight is more than made up for in all the other gains....

Not necessarily true when it comes to racing with turns involved. I've seen smallblock Cobras embarass their big block counterparts on a roadcourse.

[tazzz25906112]

68 you'll see all kinds of things that include drivers that know how to drive and those that don't (BTW I'd be one of the later LOL)...

You can have some really snarly small blocks that really perform for sure,,,, but when a big block is done right and light (rotating mass and valve train),,,, it's pretty hard to get around in my mind. But hey we all enjoy all kinds of combos,,, thats what makes the sport a blast....

[70Nova4dr]

Is the weight of an LS1 comparable to the L33 5.3 Vortec? It's all aluminum. It's found in 2005-2007 trucks.

[68Formula]

68 you'll see all kinds of things that include drivers that know how to drive and those that don't

Very true. And mine is an extreme example (heavy engine in a very lightweight chassis)

However the point is not just about balance, but how much available torque you can plant. The big blocks were slower in the corners, then had to ease into the throttle coming out. Thus never able to make up for lost ground (more than one got a little squirrely trying to come out on it hard).

The small blocks went in faster, and pretty much came out at WOT, staying on it until the valvetrain screamed for mercy.

The SBs were fun to watch because of their quickness, and the BBs were fun to watch because you expected any minute one was going to detour through the infield.

Now, if you're going to spend a lot of time in an autocross or roadcourse, I seriously consider the weight. If, on the other hand, yours is a cruiser with occasional track use, and you have a hankering for a big block, then it's probably not worth it.

[LS1NOVA]

Is the weight of an LS1 comparable to the L33 5.3 Vortec? It's all aluminum. It's found in 2005-2007 trucks.

Yes

[tazzz25906112]

Very true. And mine is an extreme example (heavy engine in a very lightweight chassis)

However the point is not just about balance, but how much available torque you can plant. The big blocks were slower in the corners, then had to ease into the throttle coming out. Thus never able to make up for lost ground (more than one got a little squirrely trying to come out on it hard).

The small blocks went in faster, and pretty much came out at WOT, staying on it until the valvetrain screamed for mercy.

The SBs were fun to watch because of their quickness, and the BBs were fun to watch because you expected any minute one was going to detour through the infield.

Now, if you're going to spend a lot of time in an autocross or roadcourse, I seriously consider the weight. If, on the other hand, yours is a cruiser with occasional track use, and you have a hankering for a big block, then it's probably not worth it.


LOL I hear that 68,,,, I'd be the over anxious guy coming out of that corner.... My 72RS has an "extremely light 555 aluminum pump gas motor" producing in excess of 700FTLBS and it can get pretty twitchy as you say LOL... ... We moved the motor down and back in the chassis as well to create a pretty nice handling peice that is a gas in the auto-cross and fun on track days.... The cruising is pretty awesome to say the least.

[BonzoHansen]

What is the wt difference between an iron block gen3/4 and an aluminum block gen3/4?


68 you'll see all kinds of things that include drivers that know how to drive and those that don't (BTW I'd be one of the later LOL)...

You can have some really snarly small blocks that really perform for sure,,,, but when a big block is done right and light (rotating mass and valve train),,,, it's pretty hard to get around in my mind. But hey we all enjoy all kinds of combos,,, thats what makes the sport a blast....

Your car sounds like the devil...and I mean that in the best of ways!

[tazzz25906112]

LOL Scott,,,,, thanks buddy.

[Vegas69]

Very true. And mine is an extreme example (heavy engine in a very lightweight chassis)

However the point is not just about balance, but how much available torque you can plant. The big blocks were slower in the corners, then had to ease into the throttle coming out. Thus never able to make up for lost ground (more than one got a little squirrely trying to come out on it hard).

The small blocks went in faster, and pretty much came out at WOT, staying on it until the valvetrain screamed for mercy.

The SBs were fun to watch because of their quickness, and the BBs were fun to watch because you expected any minute one was going to detour through the infield.

Now, if you're going to spend a lot of time in an autocross or roadcourse, I seriously consider the weight. If, on the other hand, yours is a cruiser with occasional track use, and you have a hankering for a big block, then it's probably not worth it.


These ain't cobras. :) It's up to the driver to plant as much power as possible at that moment. Me and Albert will handle the aluminum big blocks. The rest of you guys can take the easy way out.

[alowerlevel]

What is the wt difference between an iron block gen3/4 and an aluminum block gen3/4?

About 60-70lbs

[David Pozzi]

DSE swapped from ZZ383 to LS engine, lost 30 lbs they told me.
I recently weighed our ZZ383, it weighed 470 lbs with just about everything on it, flywheel, Lakewood bellhousing, intake, carb, distributor, water pump (aluminum) but no alternator, starter or PS pump, I had to remove those when we pulled the engine.

I also weighed the LS2 from Bad Penny with aluminum oil pan, intake, no water pump or flywheel, no bellhousing, no alternator, starter or ps pump. It weighed 370 lbs.

I'll look up the weights of the smaller stuff to try and get down to what the total ready to install weights would be, but I think the LS engine is going to be around 430 to 440.

[jesvilla]

It really depends on what you want to do with the car, BBC, LSX or SBC all have their pros and cons.

Too much power/torque on an autox course makes the car harder to drive. However, if you want to whoop people on the street, BBC's are hard to beat for that.

One point I'll make is this, I have a fully prepped autox 4thgen Camaro/4.5 V6 for SCCA's C prepared class, if you had a hand with 3 missing fingers, you won't run out of fingers while counting the pony cars than can beat me on a regular basis.

Jesus

[tazzz25906112]

It really depends on what you want to do with the car, BBC, LSX or SBC all have their pros and cons.

Too much power/torque on an autox course makes the car harder to drive. However, if you want to whoop people on the street, BBC's are hard to beat for that.

One point I'll make is this, I have a fully prepped autox 4thgen Camaro/4.5 V6 for SCCA's C prepared class, if you had a hand with 3 missing fingers, you won't run out of fingers while counting the pony cars than can beat me on a regular basis.

Jesus

A good driver and some seat time in a well prepared car will result some scary fast combos in my mind..... All this talk about BB, Small block and LSX really only factors into the overall build and the use...

I don't agree with BB power only useful on the street,,, it'll depend on the overall build and power curve, and the weight balance in the chassis in my mind....

I will tell you that I'm running "extremely" close to posted LSX weights by Dave on my motor,,,,this was confirmed this evening with my engine builder so in theory I have more torque than most with a constant weight factor..... Hell now all I have to do is deal with a couple of small factors,,,,, learn to drive worth a Dam and get Dave & Mary to set the suspension up.... You know, Just a small last couple of details right ROFLMAO

[CamaroAJ]

what about big bore LSx engines? wouldn't those have roughly the same power curve? the LS7 is already 427 so boring it to 454 would be in the same area. it would also be in a smaller package and have a lighter weight.

[tazzz25906112]

what about big bore LSx engines? wouldn't those have roughly the same power curve? the LS7 is already 427 so boring it to 454 would be in the same area. it would also be in a smaller package and have a lighter weight.

I'd assume you could do some really cool things with over boring to 454 and maybe even larger, however, I'm not aware of anyone boring a LSX to the 555ci I'm running.... Yes all motors have a shortfall somewhere, to much torque, not enough, come on to strong or doesn't come on enough at different RPM ranges..... The best you can do is try to match the drive train to your needs/desires and start tuning the chassis/drive-line from there...

The relevant point being however, you can produce some really trick combos (LSX, Small block or Big Block) that suit your ride and driving preferences.....