Money is killing hot rods...DEAD !!!

[EPYON]

It's been a long time since I been here . I am still a Thunderbird guy and now I just have a 96 Thunderbird and a 78 Thunderbird . Along the way I had car , house , money and parts problems . But all my problems aside , I learned two things , 1. You can not have a $50,000.00 hot rod . 2. Money is killing hot rodding and racing . When I used to make money on Saturday night , I would hunt after people who I thought put money into there cars and take there money ...EVERY TIME . Well , I have my money and house in order and I plan on racing my car . The price of every thing is so far out of site I can't believe it . I remember seeing the top custom car builders crying about the hot rod hobby and laws that seem to be killing the hobby , but it's there and our fault . The averege guy can't pay that high a price , so why care about some old car when you can get a new car that is good out the box for the same price . Now only somebody that has allot of money can get what they want , and the rest of us are just S.O.L ! The guy's doing the parts are'nt into cars , just money ( how high they can price it till sells . Maybe no one cares about any thing and every thing is going to crap , and this is just a rant for nothing but the good old days . But it just dose'nt feel like it's about the car thing at all , but everything . Granted , I have a FORD , so the price for my car is 25% higher then any other car here and some imports . Well , I plan on racing in the Redline Time Attacks With the 78 THUNDERBIRD .But it looks like I'll be using the 96 THUNDERBIRD . The class I'm going in is a street car class so I might not be able to make it in time , but it looks way to close to make it with the 78 Thunderbird with a bad (very bad ) engine . A 400M , need I say more . And I can't get any one to make or get me a dropped two to three inch spindle 8.75" inches tall or a rollcage put in my car for under $1500.00 for a 6-point . Side note : if your in Las Vegas and can get me help cheap , P.M me . Does any body else feel like the days of being smart and faster then any body else is replaced by big bank accounts ? Many of the road racing events are so high you need a shop account behind you just to get a place to park your car and parts .

[T_Raven]

Shoot building nice cars has always been expensive. A lof us have late 60s early 70s cars. They are getting pretty expensive to own and build but think about what people were building 15 years ago. 50s cars cost a boat load to fix the rust on and muscle cars were cheaper to build. Now muscle cars have taken the place of the 50s cars and the late 70s/80s cars are the cheaper ones to build. The aftermarket gets better all the time and stuff isn't exactly cheap but mass produced parts are much cheaper than needing everything custom made.

[XLexusTech]

its a lot like motorcycles.... but not as bad.... think about it... their a now like 30 "custom" over the counter chopper manufactures... Big dog for example.... back in the day you customized you bike to you desires and budget... now every yuppie with a checkbook has one....

I see similar things going on with cars... these check book builds are more of the norm then the DIY on a shoe string budget cars are.. its even funnier the guys with money and few cars are building cars that look more DIY but are done in a shop,, typically this is their 2dn or 3rd car.... Guess they feel the need to slum it up with the common folk once and awhile :-)
Let not even get started on the 30K dollar "rat rods"

The good news is the $$ can help drive innovation.... theirs room for everyone in my humble opinion...

[justasquid]

It all depends on how you look at it. Nowadays, the playing field is much closer than it use to be. Before, you won races on what you know, not how big your pocket book was. I think the current times are far better for the average guy to get into cars. You don't have to be a mechanic to have a fast car. The prices have gone up, but I think most of that is due to all of the regulations that are in place. most of the parts you buy may be simple to make and not cost a lot to produce, but they cost more to recoup some of the R&D and certification costs that companies have to pay. They aren't going to just guess at parts, they have to make parts that are going to get the job done safely. The other point, aftermarket companies for hotrodding have a very limited potential for income. Not many people are spending money, so when they make a product, they are going to have to charge a lot for it, or they will go out of business. And as you said, its not all about cars, its about making money. But if it wasn't about making money, why in the world would anyone start up a company in the first place? Plus, with more and more companies making the same products, their customer potential goes down.

As for cars themselves. times change. Those late 60's early 70's muscle cars that use to be so cheap have been replaced by late 80's early 90's cars. Can you imagine, in 20 years, paying 100k for a third gen camaro? it will happen, just as it did with all of the muscle cars.

I see your point, and feel the same on some level. But at the same time, you have the choice to spend the money or fab things yourself. the things you can buy nowadays could not be bought years ago. Its up to the consumer to decide if they want to buy them or fab them.

I don't know that I would put the blame of the high price of our hobby as our fault. I put the blame more on barret jackson and other auction companies. The cost of older muscle cars has gotten rediculous because people see these cars going for 100's of thousands of dollars, and they think their rusted pyle of crap is priceless as well. and trust me, I am disgusted I paid 3500 for a basically a shell of a camaro. Although it is mostly rust free, it will be the car I want, and will cost me more than I want to spend, but it will be with me for a very long time and will be passed down to my son. I plan on making some great memories with that car.

I guess I look at it this way. there are no cheap hobbies. As the old saying goes, you gotta pay to play. and I think that was started in the good ol days. So its never been cheap.

[Mathius]

On the subject of saving money with musclecars... The OP is complaining about not having money to put into older cars because of the price... well I've been in that boat for years, so it makes little to me. I was making $9/hour when I started off with my first fun car, a '92 Camaro, and I'm still just under $14 right now while I have 2 years left on the training for my current job. It's not easy to live off that with a truck payment plus rent so the '76 Malibu I now own sits in storage at a relative's house.

But what I wanted to ask is how are swap meets these days? I've never been to one. I have heard about them on message boards, but I only know one guy locally who had ever been to one. I didn't know him well, so I didn't discuss it much. I imagine they're like a flea market for car parts. So I presume deals can still be had at a swap meet? But then maybe I'm wrong and they're more like going to a computer show for gun parts, meaning you have all the sponsors and parts dealers there trying to "corporate" up the situation.

Is there any kind of etiquette one needs to know about going to one?

Mathius

[parsonsj]

I would hunt after people who I thought put money into there cars and take there money ...EVERY TIME Really? Did you use a gun? Or just ask nicely? How exactly did you take these people's money?

[shmoov69]

A Few comments for you to ponder.
1. Junkyards
2. Swap meets
3. eBay
4. DO IT YOURSELF!!

It can still be done on the cheap, it is just harder now. But easier In a way also.

[Takid455]

Is there any kind of etiquette one needs to know about going to one?

Mathius

Yes. Like anything else, know your stuff. Many times you will see something improperly marked or in a pile of stuff for cheap. It is a little harder with the internet as people can see what things sell for, but there is always someone who wants to clean out their garage and just get ride of stuff either cheap or reasonable. You will see lots of dealers at meets. In recent years, the aftermarket has drive prices down and the quality isn't bad either. SO, do your research and buyer beware.

Buy in bulk if you can. you can negotiate better on 5 items than 1 item.

[Steve1968LS2]

BURN THE RICH!!!

I mean really.. who gives a crap what other people spend on thier cars?

After all, it doesn't mean you have to spend that much.. and getting all bent over it just sounds petty and jealous.

Besides, the "rich" help keep all these companies in business and thier buying keeps prices down on certain items.

And what "good old days".. my rememberance of those days was that it was cheaper because:

A. there wasn't **** available to buy relative to today.

B. because everything was cheaper than today

Like everything in life this hobby is as expensive or affordable as YOU want it to be. Maybe you should focus on that instead of how people choose the money they work hard to EARN.

Just Sayin'

[TonyHuntimer]

Really? Did you use a gun? Or just ask nicely? How exactly did you take these people's money?

With his destruction of written English I think it it's possible that he's saying that he used to go out on Saturday nights and race for money...or steal cars from people like Memphis Raines from Gone in 60 Seconds. I can't tell. It's possible Epyon is actually Mel Gibson. I've never seen them both in the same place at the same time.

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[SixD7]

Hey, we all need to rant/vent now & then but...

Racing costs money, horsepower costs money...winning costs money. It's all relative to how much you want to race, how fast you want to go.

[southernfriedcj]

It's been a long time since I been here . I am still a Thunderbird guy and now I just have a 96 Thunderbird and a 78 Thunderbird . Along the way I had car , house , money and parts problems . But all my problems aside , I learned two things , 1. You can not have a $50,000.00 hot rod . 2. Money is killing hot rodding and racing . When I used to make money on Saturday night , I would hunt after people who I thought put money into there cars and take there money ...EVERY TIME . Well , I have my money and house in order and I plan on racing my car . The price of every thing is so far out of site I can't believe it . I remember seeing the top custom car builders crying about the hot rod hobby and laws that seem to be killing the hobby , but it's there and our fault . The averege guy can't pay that high a price , so why care about some old car when you can get a new car that is good out the box for the same price . Now only somebody that has allot of money can get what they want , and the rest of us are just S.O.L ! The guy's doing the parts are'nt into cars , just money ( how high they can price it till sells . Maybe no one cares about any thing and every thing is going to crap , and this is just a rant for nothing but the good old days . But it just dose'nt feel like it's about the car thing at all , but everything . Granted , I have a FORD , so the price for my car is 25% higher then any other car here and some imports . Well , I plan on racing in the Redline Time Attacks With the 78 THUNDERBIRD .But it looks like I'll be using the 96 THUNDERBIRD . The class I'm going in is a street car class so I might not be able to make it in time , but it looks way to close to make it with the 78 Thunderbird with a bad (very bad ) engine . A 400M , need I say more . And I can't get any one to make or get me a dropped two to three inch spindle 8.75" inches tall or a rollcage put in my car for under $1500.00 for a 6-point . Side note : if your in Las Vegas and can get me help cheap , P.M me . Does any body else feel like the days of being smart and faster then any body else is replaced by big bank accounts ? Many of the road racing events are so high you need a shop account behind you just to get a place to park your car and parts .

Cliff Notes?
The monoparagraph is too irritating to read.:dunno:

[XLexusTech]

BURN THE RICH!!!

I mean really.. who gives a crap what other people spend on thier cars?

After all, it doesn't men you have to spend that much.. and getting all bent over it just sound petty and jealous.

Besides, the "rich" help keep all these companies in business and thier buying keeps prices down on certain items.

And what "good old days".. my rememberance of those days was that it was cheaper because:

A. there wasn't **** available to buy relative to today.

B. because everything was cheaper than today

Like everything in life this hobby is as expensive or affordable as YOU want it to be. Maybe you should focus on that instead of how people choose the money they work hard to EARN.

Just Sayin'
One thing to think about is the reality that driving up the prices for clunkers by those with the ability to do so...$$$$... put some of these cars out of reach... that's why you care what other pay for their cars...\\

Speed cost how fast do you want to go... has applied since the 60's and still does.. today with all the supercharged twin turbo XYZ you have to pay more then ever to go "Fast"

After all Fast is relative you know :-)

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

god not one of THESE threads again..

[Chevrolaine]

Kleenex to aisle 1 please. :nopity:

[EPYON]

Mel Gibson ? Only before she goes to the hot tube !! And parsons , Saturday night me and other people would meet to do something we can't talk about here :6gears::6gears:. I hate to sound like a get the rich people , poor me guy , but I was having a hard time getting something done that before would have been cheaper and done well . Know the price didn't just go up , it is out of sight . And some of them even try to tell you that if you don't pay a lot more money , they will not do that good a job .:nopity: I know poor me . Just needed to rant about prices being higher then I thought it would be 3 years from now . And to be fair , some parts are cheaper .

[LateNight72]

And I can't get any one to make or get me a dropped two to three inch spindle 8.75" inches tall or a rollcage put in my car for under $1500.00 for a 6-point .
Custom spindles, are going to be ubber-expensive, plain and simply. I'd estimate the raw material alone for a set of 7075 spindles into the $750+ range. (Random guess, I haven't looked at 7075 in a long time, it's probably more). If you seriously want a set of custom spindles, PM me. But there's no way to even think about comparing price of custom spindles to ATS or LG's stuff.

[Damn True]

Envy and jealousy are really ugly emotions.

[TonyHuntimer]

Does your wallet go to 11?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll7rWiY5obI

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[Damn True]

Does your wallet go to 11?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll7rWiY5obI

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

We've got Armadillos in our trousers! It's bloody frightening.

[Gitter Dun]

I would rather dump $50k in an old car of my choice instead of buying new!!!

[XLexusTech]

Envy and jealousy are really ugly emotions.
:postpics:

[Satatic]

Meh I always find it irritating anyway when talking to the "average joes" showing "their" car and its all "xxx painted this" "xxx installed that" "xxx built this" "uhhh it came with the car".

Whatever.

[Steve1968LS2]

One thing to think about is the reality that driving up the prices for clunkers by those with the ability to do so...$$$$... put some of these cars out of reach... that's why you care what other pay for their cars...\\

Speed cost how fast do you want to go... has applied since the 60's and still does.. today with all the supercharged twin turbo XYZ you have to pay more then ever to go "Fast"

After all Fast is relative you know :-)

Seriously?

But if you already own a car then isn't it good that prices get "driven up"?

Cars arn't "out of reach".. it's just that people want champagne on a beer budget. Buy a car and fix it up to the level you can afford. But don't bag on people that worked to get extra cash to spend. It would be like me crying that I can't afford a Dusenberg because some rich guy drove the price up.

Being upset at people that have money is one of the things wrong with this country. Just about anyone has the capability of becoming rich, it's just that most lack the motivation.

[Steve1968LS2]

Meh I always find it irritating anyway when talking to the "average joes" showing "their" car and its all "xxx painted this" "xxx installed that" "xxx built this" "uhhh it came with the car".

Whatever.

So you can't like cars unless you built it yourself?

Some people have lives that don't allow for the time spent to build a car themself. Or maybe they don't have the skills or the time to learn the skills because they have to work and have a life.

That's doesn't mean they don't have a love of hot rods or should be excluded from our little club.

[Steve1968LS2]

I would rather dump $50k in an old car of my choice instead of buying new!!!

It would certainly be a better investment.. lol

[XLexusTech]

OK someone feels attacked.... Lets all leave the rich guys alone :-)




Meant with the kindest of harts and humor please don't take it wrong...

Lighten up Francis... :-)

[Satatic]

So you can't like cars unless you built it yourself?

Some people have lives that don't allow for the time spent to build a car themself. Or maybe they don't have the skills or the time to learn the skills because they have to work and have a life.

That's doesn't mean they don't have a love of hot rods or should be excluded from our little club.

Text book response.

The average joe does not buy premium cars. 50k this 50k that. A K here a K there. I dropped 10 Ks on a paint job. That is not average joe. But this is what the argument is about. Car builders killed hot rods for the average joe because the cars they sell have 17,000 dollar paint jobs and 10,000 dollar engines. ETC. Average joe doesnt think in xx,xxx digits he thinks in x,xxx digits or more likely xxx digits. I guess I have a diferent idea of what an average joe is though. But yes I do think some people should be excluded from things like wining trophies. Hell if I did not build close to 100% of my car there is no way I could morally accept an award for it.

[Steve1968LS2]

Text book response.

The average joe does not buy premium cars. 50k this 50k that. A K here a K there. I dropped 10 Ks on a paint job. That is not average joe. But this is what the argument is about. Car builders killed hot rods for the average joe because the cars they sell have 17,000 dollar paint jobs and 10,000 dollar engines. ETC. Average joe doesnt think in xx,xxx digits he thinks in x,xxx digits or more likely xxx digits. I guess I have a diferent idea of what an average joe is though. But yes I do think some people should be excluded from things like wining trophies. Hell if I did not build close to 100% of my car there is no way I could morally accept an award for it.

So you're saying your response is "textbook"??.. I would agree since it sounds like the same "dislike people with money" banter that pops up every now and again.

[Steve1968LS2]

OK someone feels attacked.... Lets all leave the rich guys alone :-)




Meant with the kindest of harts and humor please don't take it wrong...

Lighten up Francis... :-)

I don't feel attacked.. and I'm certainly not rich.. just having a discussion :)

But I do dislike the "I'm so much better and cooler because I shot my own paint" and "guys who write checks for cars aren't REAL car guys" banter.. it's not productive, petty, and fails to the see the larger picture.

But, it is what it is I guess.. :cheers:

[Van B]

This is reminding me of the Miller ad campaign. "Am I living the High Life?" It just goes like this.

I paid someone to paint my car and weld the thing I didn't trust myself or have the talent to weld (suspension, exhaust, minitub). Oh and I had a well known engine builder put together my engine, but otherwise I built my car in my garage.

Am I a car guy?

[Scott Parkhurst]

Honestly- I think the OP is full of it.

Why?

Because truly competitive cars are relatively affordable. Price some Fox Mustangs or third Gen F-bodies, and they're downright cheap and can be made competitive.

Are they edgy? Stylish? Unique? None of the above. But if you want to hit the track for a minimum of funds and have a shot at it, they're capable of delivering.

[Drewcrane]

Hey I have one challenger that is done and i simply cant afford to pay someone so I have learned how to do most of the stuff my self,I am now restoring a GC barracuda and again i cant afford to pay someone so i will take a little longer ,

that being said if i had the coin, i would most certainly farm out the work who cares how you get there and how much money it takes as long as you get there,

And yes in this country making money is about motivation right? so either make money at a job you know , or make money learning how to restore cars ,there are lots of both worlds and they:cheers: collide with the crazy remarks from both sides its kinda funny:spank2::spank2::spank2:


If you cant stand the heat, get out of hotrodding

[parsonsj]

I don't understand how somebody can hunt down people in their nice cars, take their money -- EVERY TIME -- and still be poor.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Why not save the money ( THAT WAS TAKEN EVERY TIME) and apply it to newer and better things.. That seems to be the best way to make money, and with that applied to your ride, you should have been up to keep up with the Jone's.. I thought that is how it used to work? Start small and build of Knowledge, Experience, and pocket book... I never knew any of it to be easy off the shelf, always thought is was individual innovation that put people on top..

[Vegas69]

What a bogus thread. I watched a clean pro street 69 Camaro that had never been raced go for 22k at Mecum Des Moines today. Hot rods are what you make of them. One mans junk is another mans palace. You don't have to spend alot of money to have something cool and respected. To us car guys, it's an addiction that turns into a snowball. My car is a galaxy away from an average Joe build, so what? It's my hard earned money AND I have more blood and sweat inot this car than anybody else. Quit being so damn negative and make the best of what your capable of financially and skill set wise. You can definitley find some deals on cars and parts today.

[critter]

And while you're at it go take a drive in your "hot rod", regardless of what it is and remind your self why you loved that car to begin with!

It ain't about money. It's about what you love. If you don't love it you need to find something better.

My 2 cents. Shutting up now.

[DarkBuddha]

Uh, what?

[Steve1968LS2]

My first car at 16 was a el-cheapo.. the next one a bit nicer.. 15 cars and 28 years later I have Penny...

[Mathius]

So you're saying your response is "textbook"??.. I would agree since it sounds like the same "dislike people with money" banter that pops up every now and again.

I agree with him whole-heartedly. Chip Foose is loaded. But he builds his cars. He gets involved, he designs them, he gets his hands dirty.

What makes someone special because they dropped $50k on someone else doing the work? Why should they feel a sense of satisfaction from that? All they did was pick out stuff from a catalog.

Honestly, I have told all my friends and family.... even though I struggle to get stuff done on my '76 Malibu because of money issues. I would be pissed if one of them ever submitted my car to Overhaulin or some other like show. Because I want my car done my way, and I want to say I did the work. There are some things I can't do, like get a show quality paint job, but that's ok. At least I'm willing to try and do the work. At least I can say _I_ did the work. That's something to take pride in.

I take no pride in signing checks.

Mathius

[SixD7]

Well each to his own but some people take no pride in doing work they aren't qualified for and their efforts are better spent in an area they can earn money to pay for the things they enjoy. Just sayin...different strokes for different folks.

[MonzaRacer]

So I can see where there might be some animosity about local specialists costing more cash.
Now on that note I am lucky right now as I have a friend with a machine shop, old equipment but accurate none the less. My big block needs freshening and I am trying to figure out how to drop a few points of compression.
With the ability to hone the block, install cam bearings, bore and sleeve the block if needed (it got some rust on couple of cylinders I didnt know about till I pulled the heads) I can and have access t odo it for parts.
I see where the OP came from used to be you could take a block to most good shop with honest race knowledge and get $500 worth of machine work done, now the local shop has $500k in CNC machines and a punk kid pushing keys on a keyboard to do the same job in 15 minutes that used to take 2 hrs, old days they got $150, now they charge $500.
I could never pay what most tranny shops want to go through one, so I built it my self, yes I am a technician but I dont do that for a living, but I also instead of going to shop and buying the $2200 trans I can buy the $500 in aftermarket parts and do the same thing my self or find one of the tranny guys who actually do some little stuff on the side.
I hav an uncle who is a body man, I ask questions , read a lot and I can actually do some really decent painting and actual wreck repair.
Being a tech gives me access to tool trucks, I have literally thousands of dollars in "extra" tools, like I have a nearly $500 hydraulic flaring tool for work, yes I am the guy who can hand bend brake lines as good or better than some machines, and just picked up the 37deg flaring tool parts so I can do single and double flares in 37deg.
I have a scratch TIG/Stick welder, mig welder, clecos, and tons of other tools that I dont need for my job,,,but I decided to expand my abilities and capabilities so I didnt have to pay Foose to do work.
I figure out how to do said jobs for less.
We have a local guy who does chassis and cages and such and will do them cheaper, trouble is unless you know what he is using he could slip mild steel pipe not legal for racing in on your roll cage, so you need to know if he is using the right stuff, like DOM.
Does speed or good looks cost a lot, yeah cause the guys who had to scrape or wanted to do it got the know how,tools,etc together and have a building open.
They pay guys to do said work and now it costs.
This is where you get to know them, dont be a punk street racer, learn some skills, get on Ebay buy one of the cheap stick/tig/plasma cutters and LEARN, then next guy can come to you and hand have 6 hours of welding doen on his roll cage done and you charge him $150 to $200 instead of $1500.
Figure on a 6 point you may have $200-$500 in DOM tubing, gusset plates(laser cut on their machine or ordered?) 6 hrs at welder/fab guys pay of $20-$30 an hour(well any good tech is now getting $20+ on flat rate pay)and then how much to open doors turn on electricity, insurance cause some dip stick with credit card tripped over a marked bad spot in floor and scuffed his hand and sues for $50k or so.
I agree building cars cost, but there ARE little shops doing great work at reasonable prices, if you can afford it, LEARN HOW TO DO IT YOUR SELF!
I do.
I hope when one of my cars runs a autocross Steve or Parsons or Jim Nielsen come over and appreciate everything I did, becasue Isee what they did and how far it took them.
Penny would be totaled in real world terms if it hadnt been for some good knowledge, insurance, luck and a skilled shop,,,,that got many thousands of dollars to apply there skill.
Now could a local shop do as good,,,MAYBE, but they figure out they can and their prices WILL go up as they now have more marketable skills. Tech gets more money has more cash for HIS project.
The big circle strikes.
But honestly if you can buy it(ie cash) build it. Thats where a lot of people go.
It doesnt take a $50k honing machine to finish a cylinder, it takes a sunnen hone, a big half in drill, a tank with some oil and a pump and a way to catch it, a micrometer and dial bore gauge and a torque plate and skill to to do it your self, say $500-$750,,,ooppss most shops will hone a clean block with a plate for $10 a hole give or take,,,,hmmm maybe $80 buck to hone to spec isnt too much.
Now also who needs to paint every little piece on a car professionally, some stuff can be done cheaper and still look good.

[vintageracer]

Big money is what drives ANY hobby. There are always a few and in some cases many who will work hard to move the hobby to the next level. Radio control planes, trains, models, dolls you name it and the level of expertise in any hobby over the last 10 years has grown exponentially. Cars are no different.

Look at a car built 10 years ago by the "Best In The Business" at that time. They almost look cartoonish today in design, color and build quality when compared to the best in the business today. In the 60', 70's and 80's the you saw a significant car ever 5-10 years. Now there is one every year with the level of craftsmanship, design and execution done to much better level than the year before. Why? Money!!!!

Money has not ruined our hobby. Money has MADE our hobby!

Could Troy Trepanier, the Ring Brothers, Foose, our own Frank, Brian, Brent and Schwartz build the cars they now dazzle us with without a car owner or a business with deep pockets behind them? Probably not! Would Kyle @ Detroit Speed, Speedtech, Baer Brakes, Total Cost, Marquez, Fletchers, Bowler, Ricks, Keisler, Forgeline, SC&C and all the others who advertise here be creating AND manufacturing their products for our cars if there was no money in it? Maybe but again probably not. Most of today's suppliers and creators of these products started out in their garage with a dream to make a product or service which was their DREAM and PASSION. Low and behold that passion fed the dream that became the reality. Ain't it great to be alive and live in the USA!

Many times I read the comments about how money has ruined our hobby and want to ask the poster who started the thread this SIMPLE question:

On Friday every week are you an employee who DRAW'S a paycheck or are you a business owner who is responsible for PAYING a weekly payroll?

The answer to that question is usally very apparent in the attitude and the comments made about money by the original thread poster! It's easy to draw a paycheck but it can be damn hard many weeks to pay a payroll. There's that "Money" thing again. It's a part of your everyday life not just our hobby!

Be glad that our hobby has the interest of people with money otherwise we would have no hobby!

[Mathius]

Big money is what drives ANY hobby. There are always a few and in some cases many who will work hard to move the hobby to the next level. Radio control planes, trains, models, dolls you name it and the level of expertise in any hobby over the last 10 years has grown exponentially. Cars are no different.

Look at a car built 10 years ago by the "Best In The Business" at that time. They almost look cartoonish today in design, color and build quality when compared to the best in the business today. In the 60', 70's and 80's the you saw a significant car ever 5-10 years. Now there is one every year with the level of craftsmanship, design and execution done to much better level than the year before. Why? Money!!!!

Money has not ruined our hobby. Money has MADE our hobby!

Could Troy Trepanier, the Ring Brothers, Foose, our own Frank, Brian, Brent and Schwartz build the cars they now dazzle us with without a car owner or a business with deep pockets behind them? Probably not! Would Kyle @ Detroit Speed, Speedtech, Baer Brakes, Total Cost, Marquez, Fletchers, Bowler, Ricks, Keisler, Forgeline, SC&C and all the others who advertise here be creating AND manufacturing their products for our cars if there was no money in it? Maybe but again probably not. Most of today's suppliers and creators of these products started out in their garage with a dream to make a product or service which was their DREAM and PASSION. Low and behold that passion fed the dream that became the reality. Ain't it great to be alive and live in the USA!

Many times I read the comments about how money has ruined our hobby and want to ask the poster who started the thread this SIMPLE question:

On Friday every week are you an employee who DRAW'S a paycheck or are you a business owner who is responsible for PAYING a weekly payroll?

The answer to that question is usally very apparent in the attitude and the comments made about money by the original thread poster! It's easy to draw a paycheck but it can be damn hard many weeks to pay a payroll. There's that "Money" thing again. It's a part of your everyday life not just our hobby!

Be glad that our hobby has the interest of people with money otherwise we would have no hobby!

I don't necessarily agree with the OP, that money is "ruining" the hobby. I did agree with the guy that said you should work on your own car. But I do think if you really consider what the OP said about costs going up, there are some valid points to be made.

Like you said, people need to be paid. Problem with that is the big corporations are spending so much time on research and development, that they have to raise the prices to compensate for all time it takes for them to finally come up with something new. They're not taking it off the profit line anymore, they're building it into the cost of a car.

New cars engines cost more than old technology engines, and they cost more to fix. You have complex systems of sensors and computers that require special machines to diagnose and fix problems. It's become harder and harder for a simple mechanic in his back yard to fix these things and in a LOT of cases, people have just given up trying to fix their own cars.

The thing is, I don't see any of this new technology lasting longer than the old technology. Sure there's always stories about vehicles that last well over 100k, 200k, etc. but you're telling me those cars were never repaired? They didn't have a transmission go bad, or a drive shaft fail, or have to replace the front end etc. etc.? I've never owned a car that didn't need work done on it at some point, usually after the 50k mark.

The only thing that's really made advances are comfort, horsepower, and fuel efficiency. I don't really see the individual parts lasting longer.

And the main reason for those things is people actually care about it now, and they've become common place. I remember growing up power windows was a luxury. Now none of my friend's could believe that I didn't have power windows on my Silverado standard.

Fuel efficiency didn't get better without spending tons of hours into research and development because people WANTED better fuel efficiency because gas prices rose so high. Something else that some people find justified by the intense amount of effort it takes to actually make gasoline, but other people are appauled by the amount of profit those oil companies are making. And then you have the stories about how our planet is going to run out of the resources necessary to make oil, so we all have to go green and electric.

Guess what? Technology isn't there for the electric car. They have some sure, but they're just not practical. But when it is, you can bet all the past mechanical experience will go to the way side and we'll all have to be computer experts and electricians to work on our cars. And the price of electronics vs. mechanics is a huge difference.

So yeah, I think the OP's viewpoint has SOME relevance. Is it RUINING the hobby? It's hard to say. I think there is some justification for the fact that to a certain standard it's becoming too expensive for some people. But for those of us who still cruise the junkyards, try second hand parts... have the patience to wait for a deal on Ebay... you can still build a car a little cheaper.

At some point time became more valuable than materials. Hell I've even seen some hobbyist wanting to be compensated for time alone. They build something on the side, and if it takes them $25 to build it, they still want to be paid for the time they put into it. It used to be that time was free. Now everyone is a contractor on the side.

Mathius

[cornfed]

Was this discussion sparked by one man's frustrations with poor aftermarket support of a 1978 t-bird?

[Steve1968LS2]

Money has not ruined our hobby. Money has MADE our hobby!


What he said.. :)

Or the phrase "I never got a job from a poor person."

Rich people is why my 55" plasma cost me only $1500.. or why I can buy a DVD player for $60..

It's also why we have such a wide array of aftermarket parts for our cars. Hey, you want to fab your own control arms, then have at it. But don't hate on a guy that buys the parts. Want to paint your own car? That's cool, but don't expect a guy with a job, family, and a lack of time or tools to do it just to fit your expectations of what a "real car guy" is.

We're all in this hobby for the same reason and that's a love of classic cars. Does it really matter if someone gets there by building thier own or writing a check to make thier vision a reality? I really don't think so and the whole "I'm better because I..." mentality only serves to weaken our community and our hobby.

So enjoy the car your capable of having and stop worring about the other guy, what he has, and how he got it.

:cheers:

[jocko124]

Is the car hobby expensive? Yes! But remember the worth of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it; and guess what? There's always someone with more money the you that is willing to pay more than you are. It can sometimes be frustrating, but it's a fact of life. Just enjoy the hobby at your own technical AND financial level.

[vintageracer]

Was this discussion sparked by one man's frustrations with poor aftermarket support of a 1978 t-bird?


No.

His comments about the lack of support and his inability to get dropped spindles and a 6 point roll cage installed cheap in his T-Bird were only in the last 3 sentences of the post.

The beginning and the main body of the post was about money and the hobby.

[dadto2jays]

"dont blame others for your failures" I am not rich but I am definetly not poor by any means my lifestyle does not show what I am worth with that in mind I dont think any less of a person that has an ok vehicle nor the guy that has that 100k car built by someone else. The worse thing someone can do is be jealous I know plenty of super wealthy guys that are miserable and know plenty of guys that live check to check that are super happy. Money does not buy happiness it does make problems go away faster.

[Boatmark]

Hard work + Ingenuity = Successful results

Whining + Blaming + resentment = No results

Stop and think about how the "money guy" got to be the "money guy". Could it have been hard work, education, taking a risk, building a business. Twenty years ago he may have been in the same shape as the poster, maybe he chose to do something more than whine.
I have a close friend in my industry whose company did about 40mil last year, and it drives me nuts to hear employees in his company complain that that they should get more, or he has too many toys. They were not around in the beginning when he was working 100 hour weeks, building engines at midnight. Or the month he had to sell his truck to make payroll. His skills were long since proven, it doesn't matter whether he buys or builds the trick boat he is playing with.

Bottom line is work with what you have. If you want more, figure it out. Learn new skills to build your car, learn new skills to help pay for your car, trade skills for work on your car . . . . . then go out and enjoy YOUR car. This is supposed to be about fun with cars.

If it were all about money, then I want an answer to this example. How come Mary Pozzi with a mid-tech car, can out run Bad Penny with the latest high tech. And then get in Penny and make a run faster than Steve (no offense Steve, just making a point). Could it be that she has spent years of work optimizing what she has, and honing superior driving skills?

I think this is where my rant started - Hard work + ingenuity + results

[go-fish]

I just can't believe people are bitching about people who pay others to perform work for them. Sometimes the person wants quality work done that they can't perform themselves. I chose to have Muscle Rodz perform some work for me, my welding sucks and I didn't have the time to work on the car myself.

Envy for the people who choose to have a shop build their whole car is completely childish and stupid. I couldn't even imagine being a shop owner in a world of such stupidity. Hating on the wealthy and financially succesful without giving thought to the people they employ and contract is utterly stupid. That is where trends and styles are born.
Re-evaluate the absurdity of what you spout and think of the guys who are the foot soldiers out in the custom car industry. You should thank those "bazterds with all the money".

It's capitalism and just because you and I might be on the bottom of the system it is much better because with capitalism come the liberty of a free market.
Socialists make me want to throw up!

[go-fish]

I did agree with the guy that said you should work on your own car.
-Mathius


So you think it should be up to you, a community, or anyone else to dictate that someone actually have to work on their own car if they want to be in this hobby? I'm too poor to have someone build my car for me but I wish I wasn't. I have a very time consuming profession and the 5 years I've been working on my car could have been spent with my family and not in the garage and learning the skills it takes to perform the work myself.
So you are saying that I have to work on my own car in order to be in the good graces of such a wonderful group of enthusiast we have in the Pro-Touring and hotrodding community? I used to frame houses and build cabinets, what if I thought people SHOULD build their own cabinets? It's a stupid way of thinking!
Well, what if I said I don't like you telling me what to do and to bugger off?

[BirdsThaWord]

I (almost) built my first car all by myself in a 1 car garage. Now I work crazy hours and have little time left for my wife and son. The car I now have will mostly be built by others, from my check book. Seeing as how I did build my first one, but can't possibly build this one, does that mean I'm not a "car guy"? Should I feel guilty that I now have more money than time? Should I feel guilty when I drive it, knowing that others did a lot of the work? HELL NO! I'm gonna drive it like I stole it and enjoy every minute of it!!!

[class67]

Ok, I am officially bored with this thread now....anybody else?

[vintageracer]

Ok, I am officially bored with this thread now....anybody else?

Maybe but your still clicking on it!

[Damn True]

Ok, I am officially bored with this thread now....anybody else?

I'm officially bored with the premise of the thread that keeps getting recycled every 6mos or so.

I love the ***** out of writing checks for car stuff. Wish I could do more of it. I worked my can off and earned every dime of it. The idea that someone is more "core or soul" because they do it themselves is flat-out bull$hit. It's jealously. It's being a whiny biotch about the fact that someone has something that they don't. It's pathetic and the mindset that allows it is what is wrong with this country.

Doing something yourself, if it turns out well IS cool and widely respected. Doing so and denigrating others who did it differently IS NOT cool and is widely disrespected......well, mocked to be precise.

[go-fish]

Agree 100% Damn True


Car builders killed hot rods for the average joe because the cars they sell have 17,000 dollar paint jobs and 10,000 dollar engines. ETC. Average joe doesnt think in xx,xxx digits he thinks in x,xxx digits or more likely xxx digits. I guess I have a diferent idea of what an average joe is though. But yes I do think some people should be excluded from things like wining trophies. Hell if I did not build close to 100% of my car there is no way I could morally accept an award for it.





Bro, I'm about as "Averge Joe" as it gets. E-5 in the military, unemployed wife and a kid that is starting school this year.



With my car, I think in $XX,XXX digits, as you say. It's also a little backwards from how you stated but the values are the same. I have about 17K in the supercharged small block and looking to spend around 10K on the paint and body.



I don't care what your idea of averge Joe is because my tax bracket tells me I'm an averge Joe. It's just that this average Joe has a dedication to save his money and go out and make money on top of his paycheck to get that forged rotating assembly, pay that better machine shop, or get that Wilwood set of brakes instead of the cobbled together 8.8 disc set up from the junk yard.



Average Joe's have the same options as anyone else. The average Joe might take a little longer to save the coin but he has the freedom to take his car to anyone the wealthy guy takes his sled to. Take pride in writing those checks Joe's. You saved the money, you sweat through those extra hours at work, you took that extra job just for the sake of making money dedicated to the car.



It's OK to not build the car 100% yourself. Even if you think you will do it 100% yourself ask yourself who built the rear and set the axle end play, did you build the engine, did you rebuild your calipers or fabricate your own rear discs? I can see where you may have overlooked that "kit" you bought when having such high and mighty illusions of grandeure.

[Tony_SS]

Money has not ruined our hobby. Money has MADE our hobby!
....

Be glad that our hobby has the interest of people with money otherwise we would have no hobby!

Amen to that!

I wish someone like a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet were motorheads...

[fantasygoat]

For me, it comes down to this.

My previous car was built by someone else, and when I got it I grew bored of it within a few months and sold it.

My current car, I spent 2 years building it myself, and it's been almost 2 years I've been driving it and working on it, and I couldn't be happier with it.

Doing it yourself makes it mean more to you, it's that simple.

For me! That's my opinion!

[LowBuckX]

I build there for i am cheap... The rich guys on this site are great. When they buy new parts to replace their LAST YEARS new parts they end up in the for sale section. As long as the seller doensnt beleive what he owns is made of gold you can get good parts cheap.

Cant afford that trick suspension well guess what the steel supply store isnt far away and thats the same place the high dollar parts start at.


The only valid rants ive read around here are the RIP OFF rants like when I was ripped off by 3 body men in the last 10 years.

[Damn True]

I build there for i am cheap... The rich guys on this site are great. When they buy new parts to replace their LAST YEARS new parts they end up in the for sale section. As long as the seller doensnt beleive what he owns is made of gold you can get good parts cheap.

Cant afford that trick suspension well guess what the steel supply store isnt far away and thats the same place the high dollar parts start at.


The only valid rants ive read around here are the RIP OFF rants like when I was ripped off by 3 body men in the last 10 years.

^^Respected^^

[shmoov69]

So you think it should be up to you, a community, or anyone else to dictate that someone actually have to work on their own car if they want to be in this hobby? I'm too poor to have someone build my car for me but I wish I wasn't. I have a very time consuming profession and the 5 years I've been working on my car could have been spent with my family and not in the garage and learning the skills it takes to perform the work myself.
So you are saying that I have to work on my own car in order to be in the good graces of such a wonderful group of enthusiast we have in the Pro-Touring and hotrodding community? I used to frame houses and build cabinets, what if I thought people SHOULD build their own cabinets? It's a stupid way of thinking!
Well, what if I said I don't like you telling me what to do and to bugger off?
I think he was just saying that the person that bitche$ about money in cars should build his own and learn to do the work himself. I don't think that he was meaning it as a blanket statement. Just common logic that the "money haters" can't grasp sometimes. Like the person that can't make the electric bill but won't stop smoking or drop the cell phone or drop the cable tv or even shopping at the convience store! Simple logic.

[go-fish]

I think he was just saying that the person that bitche$ about money in cars should build his own and learn to do the work himself. I don't think that he was meaning it as a blanket statement.


Ahhh! Gotcha. I just took it the other way because I HAVE heard it often. People say to be a "real' car guy you should build 'em yourself and some even say 100%. I don't hate on the "check book enthusiasts" They are doing it they way I wish I could, granted I have to farm out some work. I've learned that the cheapest way to get a muscle car in your garage is to buy one someone else has restored!


Just common logic that the "money haters" can't grasp sometimes. Like the person that can't make the electric bill but won't stop smoking or drop the cell phone or drop the cable tv or even shopping at the convience store! Simple logic.

I know what you mean about the dropping the cable and all that. The wife and I went on a cable "diet" and all but quit eating out and ANY unnecessary expenditures when we were saving up for the suspension. The regular Joe has to make a bigger scarifice but there is no need to hate on the person that doesn't have to.

I used to hang out with a dude that had a dam fast Firebird. He only ate two meals a day and didn't do anything that spent the car's money, except beer.

[EPYON]

To clear some things up . I used to work in a custom car shop that built custom cars . I changed jobs to detail work . I think that it is nice that there are custom cars for the rich and I do like to see them too . My problem is not with a guy working in a office for 80 hours and paying for his dream car , but the people that raise the prices so much that us little people can't sit beside you on both of our days off and enjoy our loves together . And that because Foose is'nt standing next to my car I can't win best of show But get peoples choice . That is not fair and or right . I am a road racer and I love muscle cars (don't figure) . But I don't think of it as just a hobby but a love and a need for power . I sow a story of a nurse that saved her money and got a Viper . A guy I worked with said that she shouldn't have that car because she doesn't make the money that most Viper owners have .
And it is funny that every person here loves these cars that were built to performe and not be as much as a Enzo or a Veryon , is now un-loading a lot of money in them now . I don't think you should be rich to have a nice car or you can't save a dollar here or there and have a nicer car either .
Oh , I did find some spindles for $260.00 , not my bolt pattern but I could make them work . Kind of goes against the whole cost a lot of money to go fast thing a little . Or at least the people who are just making money out of it and don't realy care about it ...... and some will even say it in one way or another .

[79-TA]

The OP seemed focused on speed an expressed an interest in running the redline events. If the OUSCI showed anything, it's that there is no substitute for preparation and driver talent. There are some good examples of budget builds on this site. Check out Jon R's Nova for a speed-focused build. My Trans Am was once a budget machine (and at 15k total investment over 6 years can still be considered as one depending on who you are) but a collision with a van meant that I had an opportunity to focus on some aesthetics.


And I really get tired of the "built not bought" crowd. I generally don't let people touch my car, but I did get the paint, bodywork, and exhaust done by others. And then of course, I didn't do any of the machining to my engine block either. What is really built and what's just assembled? If you assemble a 383 from a kit are you really building? No creativity and no real fabriction. It's not much more than a grown up erector set. The engineering and problem solving was all done by whoever did it first. The people who do it first often happen to be those at the forefront of racing . . . with money. There's still plenty of room for home-grown ingenuity, but I'm tired of people thinking that bolting on an intake manifold etc makes them a real builder who is automatically so much better than the check writer.

[T_Raven]

I'm still curious what the OP would like the hobby to be.

[Rhino]

To be quite honest, I never really thought about these projects as "rich" or "poor"... just different build styles.

Maybe I just hate labels.

[scr8p]

guys with deep pockets are the reason i can keep a roof over my family's head, and food on the table. try doing that working for guys that earn less per hour at their job than your hourly shop rate.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

goooddd... would you guys stop crying.

just get to building.. how ever you do it!

[XLexusTech]

... One assumption people may be making is that the majority of the people who choose to build the car themselves are doing so because they don't have the means to write a fat check or several chubby ones.

I can today write a 6 figure check for a car, keep my house and pay my bills every month and still have a 401k.

I chose instead to spend 3 or more years building the car myself, because I see more value in that..

Just my worthless opinion Not jealousy, not crying just the way I see it and the origin of my values.... It my be different but at least their mine...
:-)

[LowBuckX]

goooddd... would you guys stop crying.

just get to building.. how ever you do it!

I save my tears to wash my car with.

[parsonsj]

For Mr. EVERY TIME:

http://www.RASR.org/

[rrunner68]

Be glad you are building a brand with parts availability like Ford. And I call BS on the 25% price fact. Every price out a set of Hemi Rockers?

[wmhjr]

This whole thread is ridiculous. EVERYTHING is more expensive. Money talks. But there are a whole bunch of points that the OP just completely misses. On the surface, it just sounds like class envy to me.


Without people having money to spend on leading edge stuff, there are LOTS of components that simply wouldn't be available, period. Those "Rich guys" that the OP is blasting are also the people that make things like cutting edge suspension components slowly more commonplace, and within the reach of small budget backyard builders.
You think you're going to win Best of Show when Foose is against you now, but it wasn't that way years ago? Every hear of George Barris, "Big Daddy" Roth? Dean Jeffries? Same thing - different names.
Guess what? It's not 1969. Or 1979. Or 1989. Or 1999. Or 2009. Every year there are less and less of the body styles and years that we really like to build left in decent shape. There is this funny relationship between supply and demand. common sense.
Those people writing checks? They're the ones keeping small businesses alive right now. Just like with my first point, their projects can end up making things possible for the rest of the hobbyists that would be simply unobtainable.
If you're trying to build a major ISCA "Best of Show" car you'd better have money. Just like 30 years ago. Even if you (try to) do all your own work. If you thin otherwise you need some smelling salts.
This thread is just about class envy IMHO. I know an incredibly talented guy who is now building a really wild lowered 70s VW Bug in his garage. It's an inexpensive build, and will probably be a blast on the AutoX. You don't "need" one of the really desirable body styles. You also don't need 700hp. What you "want" is a different story, but you know the saying, "want in one hand and &$*(# in the other, right?

[wmhjr]

Be glad you are building a brand with parts availability like Ford. And I call BS on the 25% price fact. Every price out a set of Hemi Rockers?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If it's not a SBC or BBC, prices are higher. Try building a traditional Pontiac Standard Block. That's the way it goes - no sense crying about it.

[79PonchoUK]

In the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s it was very difficult to make a world class car....


....even if the cars of that time seem relatively easy to do today.


It's all down to the times we live in. In 20 years time, people will think the world-class hotrods of today were a bit....simple to do. Boundaries are ALWAYS being pushed.

[79PonchoUK]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If it's not a SBC or BBC, prices are higher. Try building a traditional Pontiac Standard Block. That's the way it goes - no sense crying about it.

Building a tradtional pontiac block still isn't really costly. I'm putting one together at the moment. Parts for that are obsenely cheap in comparison to what I'm used to buying.

Anything japanese, cosworth etc and you're doubling, maybe tripling the price of parts.

We can buy a full forged bottom end kit for a Pontiac for the price of a set of 4 pistons for a YB engine.

[Bill Howell]

GAWD!!!! Why do we have to have these type threads?
This past weekend, I attended an event, Day at the Strip, at Lawerenceville, Ill.
It cost a whopping $35 to attend, for two days. You could show your car, Autocross your car, Speed/Stop Challenge your car and Drag Race your car ALL for that $35.
I live about 400 miles from Lawerenceville, but know a bargain when I see one, so for about $440 total, I had another great weekend, including a couple free meals along the way. I had to leave early Sunday so did not get to Drag, but trust me, I got my monies worth, 10 fold. I have counted up about 30 autocross strip tickets, plus I know Brian drove my car 3 laps so the car probably ran the course 40 times, unreal. I know I improved my driving skills and had a blast doing it.
There was a guy there with a ASTRO VAN that ran as many laps as I did and Speed/Stop challenged as much as I did. WHO had more fun, probably neither, because we both had a blast.
I get SO SICK of whinners bitching about this and that. MAN UP, go to an event in your DD and get some seat time. I PROMISE that is the best money you will ever spend in your quest to build that ultimate car, not matter if that is a $5000 car or a $500,000 car.
If you have a class hate issue, you are certainly in the wrong sport and have obviously never been to an event. Regardless of who you are or how much money you can throw at a car, there are always those that can out do you, get over it. If it wasn't for those guys, manufacturers would have a hard time making us new parts that we can pick and choose from. Sadly, life moves forward and prices do go up as a general rule, so either jump in now, or quit bitching if you see a increase in cost two years later.
Defining "Rich People" is such a stupid game and waste of time, since every one of us have a different idea on who "those people" are. Why not come to an event near you sometime and check out all these people you read about and judge for yourself. I promise if you will get over your "class envy" and just come to have a blast, you will find everyone there helpful and willing to share their knowledge. If you don't have a great time, I will refund your entry fee. So far, I have not had a request for a refund!!

SO, PLEASE, be a part of this sport and learn to live within your own budget and have a great time. I promise you will have a much better time with your car.

[wmhjr]

Building a tradtional pontiac block still isn't really costly. I'm putting one together at the moment. Parts for that are obsenely cheap in comparison to what I'm used to buying.

Anything japanese, cosworth etc and you're doubling, maybe tripling the price of parts.

We can buy a full forged bottom end kit for a Pontiac for the price of a set of 4 pistons for a YB engine.

My point was in comparison to the statement that building a Ford is "25% more expensive than any other car here". I'd say building a Ford is zero percent more expensive than bulding a Poncho.

It also depends on the type of build. Because of all the investments by other people, aftermarket heads are "relatively" reasonable (though for us Poncho guys there are FAR fewer choices. Heads? You've got KRE and E-Head castings, with the Tigers and Rolands if you're not building a street car. Not much more than that). Blocks? You've got stock (starting to get scarce), IAs or MRs. Building a 300hp engine is pretty inexpensive. 400hp? Not bad at all. When you start passing the 500hp point it starts getting more expensive. 1000hp? Oh oh! It's just more expensive than a Chebby. I know there are far more expensive engines to build than a Poncho also.

[wmhjr]

Regardless of who you are or how much money you can throw at a car, there are always those that can out do you, get over it. If it wasn't for those guys, manufacturers would have a hard time making us new parts that we can pick and choose from.

Why not come to an event near you sometime and check out all these people you read about and judge for yourself. I promise if you will get over your "class envy" and just come to have a blast, you will find everyone there helpful and willing to share their knowledge. If you don't have a great time, I will refund your entry fee. So far, I have not had a request for a refund!!

SO, PLEASE, be a part of this sport and learn to live within your own budget and have a great time. I promise you will have a much better time with your car.

More accurate words have not been spoken.

[fordsbyjay]

Well it is going to be pretty hard to follow Bills post but here goes.

I don't really think it is anymore to build a car now then it did 20 years ago if you want. The problem is peoples expectations are out of wack. Twenty, thirty years ago you had 14" wheels and probably disc/drum brakes in the 10" range. Head out to an autowrecker and I bet prices aren't much more than a long time ago. Now some people just want big ticket items like 13" brakes for autorwrecker prices.

Thanks to the big money cars more, positive attention has been brought to the whole aftermarket industry. This in turn creates more jobs and companies that create more parts which in turn has lowered many prices. I think it doesn't hurt that a lot of baby boomers are just getting to retire and have money saved up to build that car they always wanted either.

As far as money goes and building a car everyone has a choice. When I went to college I worked at a racecar fabrication shop. I absolutely loved that job, even stayed there when I got out of school. The decision I made was that I could stay there or go get a better paying job and make 5x as much money. So I make a lot more money now and can afford big brakes and nice wheels so does that make me less of a car guy? Everybody is in charge of their own destiny. If you choose not to get an education or take that job out of town that pays more money then that is your choice not mine so don't hate me and others like me. BTW, I have built most of my cars but I wouldn't think twice about buying a finished car if it was what I want. The cost is way less that way.

[fantasygoat]

I have to say that when I see someone win a trophy for writing a cheque I raise my eyebrow. I mean, they don't give the Oscar to the financier, they give it to the director.

I think it's more about who deserves the credit for me. But hey, that's just me.

[Rhino]

I have to say that when I see someone win a trophy for writing a cheque I raise my eyebrow. I mean, they don't give the Oscar to the financier, they give it to the director.

I think it's more about who deserves the credit for me. But hey, that's just me.
A few key points to keep in mind.

1.) The dude writing the check makes the decisions on what gets in the car. (The "director" in this case... the builder would be akin to an actor)
2.) Driver skill is more important than how much his billet gauge bezels cost.

[Bill Howell]

I have to say that when I see someone win a trophy for writing a cheque I raise my eyebrow. I mean, they don't give the Oscar to the financier, they give it to the director.

I think it's more about who deserves the credit for me. But hey, that's just me.

OK, so I just got to ask. Name some check writers. I am looking for those that wrote checks for real protouring cars that we see on the road or track. I could care less about show cars, that is a whole different world. However, if the car is driving or tracked, I am curious as to who you are refering to above.

[fantasygoat]

1.) The dude writing the check makes the decisions on what gets in the car. (The "director" in this case... the builder would be akin to an actor)

I guess it depends on how involved the owner is in the build. A lot of guys just say "do whatever you want" and some guys get very specific.

A few people were mentioning how they'd ask owners questions and the owners would have no idea. Those are the guys I would say are financiers.

But at the level of a Riddler or AMBR award? I think they only started mentioning the builders in the past 15 years or so.

[Steve1968LS2]

I have to say that when I see someone win a trophy for writing a cheque I raise my eyebrow. I mean, they don't give the Oscar to the financier, they give it to the director.

I think it's more about who deserves the credit for me. But hey, that's just me.

Maybe he directed the build.. ;)

He had a vision and hired someone with the skills to make that vision a reality.. that's good in my book.

As stated before.. some people have more money than time or skill..

[Steve1968LS2]

OK, so I just got to ask. Name some check writers. I am looking for those that wrote checks for real protouring cars that we see on the road or track. I could care less about show cars, that is a whole different world. However, if the car is driving or tracked, I am curious as to who you are refering to above.

Well, I could name a couple guys that hired builders to make the car of thier dreams..

But that misses the point that they are car guys just like us.. well except they have more cash. lol

[Tony_SS]

I would love to be a check book hot-rodder, please. I'd art direct the whole build and create the ride of my dreams. I would even contract out the rendering - even though I'm perfectly capable. Why? Because I could! I earned every cent in my checking account. I could give 2 dumps if people respect that or not. I don't have my own interests to satisfy other people. If you have to build a car to just impress someone or gain acceptance, no matter how you did it, you're not going to gain my respect. If you share my passion for anything on wheels then we can relate. But if you hate the guy who had his car built - you've got issues! If you hate him because he's a jackazz, then that's justified. :)

[Bill Howell]

Maybe he directed the build.. ;)

He had a vision and hired someone with the skills to make that vision a reality.. that's good in my book.

As stated before.. some people have more money than time or skill..
I am sure we both know the same people. I want to see who others name. Even the ones I know are truely car guys. I want to see who isn't.

[Jarcaines]

Seriously?
Just about anyone has the capability of becoming rich, it's just that most lack the motivation.

I agree that dogging on people for the way they choose to build their cars or spend their money is wrong, but this statement simply isn't true. Just because there have been some success stories of people pulling themselves out of horrible situations doesn't mean that it's something everyone has the ability or resources to accomplish. Don't go judging peoples motivation level based on their income, that's just as bad.

[TonyL]

Think it's impossible to build a car that gets into magazines, is fun to drive and is reliable for under 5 grand? Don't look in my driveway then. Car building is what you put into it. You dont *need* to buy all that high dollar stuff. There's always an alternative.

That's the whole reason I built my car. I could have gotten caught up in the whole high end build stuff, but chose to prove it could be done on the cheap. It should be illegal how much fun I have with my car.

[Rhino]

It should be illegal how much fun I have with my car.
Some of it probably is! :)

[Jarcaines]

As stated before.. some people have more money than time or skill..

I agree Steve, but then some of us (me) have none of the above... ;-)

I have full respect for the guys who can do everything themselves in their garage for less money, but some people don't have the abilities or facility to be able to weld, or do body work, or paint, etc. This doesn't make their love for cars any lesser or greater then the guy writes a check and turns over a dream to a capable shop. Or, like me, the guy who has a car in his garage and a plan in his head but doesn't have the money, time, or skill to get further then that at the moment.

Can't we just share our love for cars and respect other peoples ways of doing it even if they are different then our own? We are all in this together!

[Jarcaines]

Think it's impossible to build a car that gets into magazines, is fun to drive and is reliable for under 5 grand? Don't look in my driveway then. Car building is what you put into it. You dont *need* to buy all that high dollar stuff. There's always an alternative.

That's the whole reason I built my car. I could have gotten caught up in the whole high end build stuff, but chose to prove it could be done on the cheap. It should be illegal how much fun I have with my car.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I love your car, it's an inspiration.

[James OLC]

It's been a long time since I been here . I am still a Thunderbird guy and now I just have a 96 Thunderbird and a 78 Thunderbird . Along the way I had car , house , money and parts problems . But all my problems aside , I learned two things , 1. You can not have a $50,000.00 hot rod . 2. Money is killing hot rodding and racing . When I used to make money on Saturday night , I would hunt after people who I thought put money into there cars and take there money ...EVERY TIME . Well , I have my money and house in order and I plan on racing my car . The price of every thing is so far out of site I can't believe it . I remember seeing the top custom car builders crying about the hot rod hobby and laws that seem to be killing the hobby , but it's there and our fault . The averege guy can't pay that high a price , so why care about some old car when you can get a new car that is good out the box for the same price . Now only somebody that has allot of money can get what they want , and the rest of us are just S.O.L ! The guy's doing the parts are'nt into cars , just money ( how high they can price it till sells . Maybe no one cares about any thing and every thing is going to crap , and this is just a rant for nothing but the good old days . But it just dose'nt feel like it's about the car thing at all , but everything . Granted , I have a FORD , so the price for my car is 25% higher then any other car here and some imports . Well , I plan on racing in the Redline Time Attacks With the 78 THUNDERBIRD .But it looks like I'll be using the 96 THUNDERBIRD . The class I'm going in is a street car class so I might not be able to make it in time , but it looks way to close to make it with the 78 Thunderbird with a bad (very bad ) engine . A 400M , need I say more . And I can't get any one to make or get me a dropped two to three inch spindle 8.75" inches tall or a rollcage put in my car for under $1500.00 for a 6-point . Side note : if your in Las Vegas and can get me help cheap , P.M me . Does any body else feel like the days of being smart and faster then any body else is replaced by big bank accounts ? Many of the road racing events are so high you need a shop account behind you just to get a place to park your car and parts .

I tried for a while to respond to this post but after sitting here for the better part of my lunch hour I decided that I have no clue what this post is about ... period.

The title says that money is killing hot rods... dead... and yet the post has nothing to do with hot rods and, unless you have been living in the basement for the last three years, you have to acknowledge that the performance car community has never been as fortunate as it is right now. For the sake of arguement I am going to keep using you're description - "hot rod" - but with the understanding that we are not talking about "Hot Rods"... your post refered to drag racing and open track racking a street legal car... so let's work with that.

You say that you can not have a $50,000 hot rod. BS! Pure and simple. Not only are there a ton of examples on this board and in our garages that contadict this, but face the facts... $50K is big coin! The third place finisher in this years RTTC has less that in her car. Heck , at BJ I watched Bob Johnson buy a quarter million dollar touring car for $35K... (heck, I was writing him an email when I saw him win asking if I could borrow it for OLoA). You can build almost anything you like for under $50,000 if that is what your budget it so get off it. Besides which, this is one of the only communities - anywhere - which openly welcomes everybody - rich, poor, no talent, and gifted - to participate together and stand shoulder to shoulder with one another - without descrimination.

You say money is killing hot rodding and racing. BS! The hand-me-down parts and technology alone are proof that you are 100% wrong. That's not even taking in to account all of the new events that have been created - a lot of them by members of this very community - to meet the increasingly competitive nature of "hot rod" enthusiasts.

You say that top custom car builders hurt... what? By and large the "professional" builders don't bring their cars out to race and most will admit that they don't build their cars for (on pavement) competition. And those that do generally are not that successful - notable exceptions aside. But you don't have to go to a top custom builder to be fast, or cool, or happy - that is your decision.

You say that you can get a new car that is as good for the same price as an old one... as if that is a bad thing? Not only do they not have anything to do with one another, but your only complaint there is that new cars are too cheap and too fast?

In reading your post what it seems like is this - and everyone who gets out of the hobby for a while experiences this - when you left, you were fast... and now you are not. You're built 11 second street car used to **** of the walk... and now it is not. You're '78 T-bird used to be fast... and now it is not. And you're looking at what it will take to get back on top of the hill... and it's not going to be cheap. But this is not because things are out of control expensive... it's because there are SO MANY choices and SO MANY other cars that what used to be fast isn't any more. And not all of those cars are that expensive - they are just that good.

This stuff has always been expensive and whatever your reference point... well... as Bill said... there is always someone who is faster than you so get used to it.

As to your specific complaints, about not being able to find a cheap drop spindle for a '78 T-bird or not being able to get a race ready roll cage installed for under $1500 - I don't know what you expect.

Drive your stuff... have fun... enjoy it. Don't get bitter about stuff you have no control over.

[parsonsj]

and James gets the final word.

Nicely put.

jp

[JEFFTATE]

Money is not killing Hot Rods !
Anyone can build a nice car for any budget ..
The big money helps move the hobby along ,( with research and developement ).
Not everyone needs a $500,000 car or even a $50,000 car to have fun.

Take my Camaro for instance.
I only have $18,000 in my car.
It's pretty rusty and needs to be restored , but I drive it to events and enjoy it..
I don't care what everyone else can afford , I only care what I can afford..
It doesn't take $50,000 to have fun !!