PT 2nd gen Firebird Formulas pics?

[killer67]

Working on a 79 formula firebird. Looking for pics of wheels, stance, engine pics, etc. Will accept any and all suggestions. Thanks :)

[PhillipM]

Nice trailer!

[srh3trinity]

I will soon be working on a 74 Firebird, but it isn't a Formula or a TA. It was a 350/350 car with a vinyl roof. I don't think it was an Esprit either.

[ProdigyCustoms]

My favorite, but I am partial I guess

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[killer67]

My favorite, but I am partial I guess

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Frank,

What size TA3's and tires are those? How big can you go front and rear tires without a tub and stock subframe? How about with a tub? What kind of suspension gives it that perfect stance?

[NOT A TA]

Wes's car shown above is my favorite! Very classy and yet bad ass at the same time. Could show up at the country club or the drag strip and be right at home.

[formula]

oh my god how did I miss this thread??!?!?! Haha my car beat me here...

Frank's busy on project unfair, so I'll try to answer all of your questions--and any others if you think of them!

Working on a 79 formula firebird.
Oh man, that is one pretty bird already...but I like the idea of hacking it up! I have around 9 million pics of mine...But I realized the newest ones I have up on photobucket are actually right before everything was finished up, so I'll just post one underhood and one interior shot (ok, and one other outside shot--I can show off a little, right?) , and let me know if you want any specific shots of anything.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

What size TA3's and tires are those?

255/35/19s front, 325/30/19s rear, 19x8.5 front and 19x12 rear.

How big can you go front and rear tires without a tub and stock subframe?

Front, Mine rub at full lock on the frame (stock sub). Rear, there's a lot of debate--depending on your suspension setup, you can go as wide as a 315, but not when combined with....

What kind of suspension gives it that perfect stance?
Air ride's street challenge kit.

How about with a tub?
again, depends on your suspension setup--but anything above a 325 starts to get tight fast on air ride. On a setup where you're using less of the wheel well, you could probably get away with a 345. Wider than that and I'd start to worry about suspension mounting points having to be moved...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Hopefully that shows what I'm talking about/gives you an idea of the space tubs would give.

Now, onto your car...

Looking for pics of wheels, stance, engine pics, etc. Will accept any and all suggestions. Thanks

This is just an "If I were you"--but with a formie in that nice of shape already, I think a subtle, clean approach would be awesome as well. Frank is the go-to man on all things forgeline, but if you want other ideas, you might look into these wheels...

http://wheelvintiques.myshopify.com/products/billet-pontiac-93-series
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/93BilletPontiacRalleye_II-1.jpg

Then, depending on how far you want to go on suspension,

-PTFB has an EXCELLENT budget setup that is great if you're looking to stick with leaf springs and stock control arms.
http://pro-touringf-body.com/

-Detroit speed builds one of the nastiest coil-spring setups for 2nd gens, if you want to take things to the limit, but keep a stock (or stock appearing, heh heh) subframe.
http://detroitspeed.com/

-Air ride's got the market cornered on bolt-in air suspensions for 2nd gens.
http://www.ridetech.com/shop/

-or, if you're looking for "holy crap, you did what?", there's always Schwartz's full frame for 2nd gens...
http://www.schwartzperformance.com/projects.aspx?projectid=13

Beyond that, I'm deeply, desperately in love with my LS engine--mine's an L76 backed up by a TKO tranny with a 'vette Z06 clutch, and after a camswap I'm at 420 WHP/400 WTQ and 18-20 mpg, including city driving and autocrossing.

Unfortunately, it also means that a lot (maybe even most?) Pontiac enthusiasts hate me a little, deep inside--but since the car came from the factory with a chevy 350, I feel no guilt. As soon as I can build an all-aluminum, fuel-injected, 500 crank horse poncho that can pull 20 mpg for less than 5k, I'll be convinced I put the wrong engine in. IF you do decide to go the LS route, make sure you call Frank--he comes across crazy engine deals all the time, and can help set you up with all of the support gear at the same time.


Wes's car shown above is my favorite! Very classy and yet bad ass at the same time. Could show up at the country club or the drag strip and be right at home.

Yeah, well, it's guys like you who inspired me to do it! Haha thanks as always, man!

[tazzz25906112]

Wes has a really cool car here and Prodigy is excellent to deal with,,, just an overall winning combo..

[killer67]

Wes,

Thanks for all your insight and ideas. C'mon man, now you just reached into my pocket and took more money out of it. :spank2: Thinking of an LS conversion but not sure how radical I want to go. I like L76 compression in case I add a blower later but LS3 might have a little more juice if I can find a deal.

What about Hotchkis suspension kit instead of air - sway bars, A-arms, drop springs etc. Is that an inexpensive mod or is it better to go all out and save for the DSE stuff and better suspension components.

Those TA3's are SICK and color-matched perfectly. :drool: Dont know if I can spring $5000+ for wheels. Like your other suggestion but your wheels MAKE that car.

What did you do for brakes? Wilwood 6 and 4 piston front and rear? For all that money, you can't see them very well. Do you need those brakes for your HP level or was it a luxury?

Fernando

[novaderrik]

i don't know how much you are looking to spend on a set of wheels, but a guy over on the www.turbobuick.com board just had a set of billet 18" 3 piece GNX styled wheels made for his GN that would look absolutely badass on that car. actually, i think he posts here, too..
i think he was trying to get $3k for the set of 4 wheels, which is a lot- but they are beautiful wheels and you'd have one of 2 sets..

[formula]

Wes,

Thanks for all your insight and ideas. C'mon man, now you just reached into my pocket and took more money out of it. :spank2: Thinking of an LS conversion but not sure how radical I want to go. I like L76 compression in case I add a blower later but LS3 might have a little more juice if I can find a deal.


Call Frank, man--he'll probably be able to make magic happen. 400+/400+ at the wheels was my goal (the tranny's spec'd to 500/500) and is plenty fast for me, especially with 3.73s, but like you said, I figure if I ever get bored, the L76 makes it a lot easier to just strap an extra 100 hp or so to the intake, haha.



What about Hotchkis suspension kit instead of air - sway bars, A-arms, drop springs etc. Is that an inexpensive mod or is it better to go all out and save for the DSE stuff and better suspension components.


Hotchkis isn't bad stuff, not my favorite but I know people have been fast with it before. 2nd gens benefit from having a waaaaaayy more intelligent suspension design from the factory than 1st gens, so a factory-arm 2nd gen with the chassis stiffened up, then the right springs and shocks and swaybars, can be a force to be reckoned with. The air ride was a necessity for me, as I have literally 12-14" tall speed bumps in my neighborhood and I would have had to choose between a good stance and being able to get my car home otherwise.



Those TA3's are SICK and color-matched perfectly. :drool: Dont know if I can spring $5000+ for wheels. Like your other suggestion but your wheels MAKE that car.


Haha thanks man, but again, if TA3's are what your heart's set on, call Frank before you rule them out. He has a real soft spot for those wheels, and tends to make some magic things happen.



What did you do for brakes? Wilwood 6 and 4 piston front and rear? For all that money, you can't see them very well. Do you need those brakes for your HP level or was it a luxury?

Fernando

Yup, wilwood 6 pistons on the front and 4 pistons on the rear, but I'm with the "smaller rotor, bigger caliper" crowd--I only have 13.5" front calipers and 12.5" rears and use the combination of larger calipers and hydroboost to generate as much mechanical advantage as larger rotors with smaller calipers would. Here's the best shot I have of the backs...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


They might not give the "maximum pie plate" look, but I actually have TOO much brake now, because of the hydroboost--I'm trying to figure out how to decrease the line pressure so that I can't sneeze the wrong way and lock up the brakes. If I can get the boost backed off, I think they'll be perfect. I definitely needed to upgrade over the stockers after the engine swap--whether or not these were necessary, I'm not sure, but they weren't completely unnecessary!

[PT_79_TA_461]

hey formula, would it be to much to ask to post alot of pics of the rear and some of the front setup? im seriously considering getting this kit, and i want to look at it in detail. worst case i can pm you my email and you can send them there.

[formula]

Don't bother me a bit. I'll snap a bunch of quick camera phone shots and upload them on my way out to utah today. May be tonight before I have them up. I'll probably put them in a PM, unless the original poster asks to see them, to keep his thread clean for him.

[PA Formula 78]

Formula how do you like your Procar seats. I have been looking at these, and am not sure if I want to go with them or not. I definately like the looks of them.

[PT_79_TA_461]

Don't bother me a bit. I'll snap a bunch of quick camera phone shots and upload them on my way out to utah today. May be tonight before I have them up. I'll probably put them in a PM, unless the original poster asks to see them, to keep his thread clean for him.

Thanks, id appreciate it alot.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Keep in mind if your going to mini tub and use the Air bar, your going to need a offset lower arm we will custom build for you.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Frank's busy on project unfair, so I'll try to answer all of your questions--and any others if you think of them!


Actually working on a really cool Butternut Yellow convertible getting 2010 Camaro running gear, AME front, CA rear, Big Wilwoods, all the tricks. Unfair is a night and weekend project.

[PT_79_TA_461]

Keep in mind if your going to mini tub and use the Air bar, your going to need a offset lower arm we will custom build for you.
i dont fallow ....?

[ProdigyCustoms]

The stock location of the air bar lower link will hit a 315 or bigger tire. So we can have it custom built with the lower arm offset to the inside to gain more tire clearance. You will also have to weld on lower brackets like we did on Wes car.

[PT_79_TA_461]

The stock location of the air bar lower link will hit a 315 or bigger tire. So we can have it custom built with the lower arm offset to the inside to gain more tire clearance. You will also have to weld on lower brackets like we did on Wes car.

ok gotcha, ill let you guys know when it happens.

[bkkpool]

I have had my eye on a set of Procar Rallys for awhile but wanted to sit in them before ordering them. Wes was kind enough to let me check out his a PSMC2. I ordered a set for my Camaro the following Tuesday!!! Thanks Wes!! They are now sitting in my dining room waiting on my carpet to arrive.

[srh3trinity]

Wes's car is the standard for late 70's PT Formulas. That car is amazing. There isn't anything that I would have done differently. The Killer Bandit TA is the standard for second gen TA's, or at least it is in my world.

[killer67]

Don't bother me a bit. I'll snap a bunch of quick camera phone shots and upload them on my way out to utah today. May be tonight before I have them up. I'll probably put them in a PM, unless the original poster asks to see them, to keep his thread clean for him.

Keep it going Wes - I want to see the pics also. I have lots to learn. :)

[Roadrage David]

My Frinds formula 455ho(468 stroker)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5h-kI_t1oc&feature=player_embedded

[Doug1]

The Killer Bandit TA is the standard for second gen TA's, or at least it is in my world.


Just wait a while longer. The guys are putting the 3-4 clip from Art Morrison Engineering, along with their front clip under my 79. Bascially the same setup from "Unfair" but under a 2nd Gen. There will be a new standard for TAs... I am going to start a build thread , though the car has only been blasted to this point. The suspension won't be finished until late September so this build is just a baby at this point.

I went with a 535 IA2 Pontiac motor built by SD Performance. 750hp on pump gas. It's here and ready to go. Once the AME stuff done, we'll jump on it, though there are a few custom pieces still to determine. I am considering carbon fiber for the front end but need the late 70s version, which no one makes at the moment so it will be a one off if I go that route.



Went ahead and started a build thread...
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70526

I am trying to decide on calling it Project "MORE UNFAIR" or "Triple Threat TA"

The "More Unfair" is a good natured poke at Frank. I want him to help me build a car that will have the pontential to spank "Unfair" but not do some of the wilder mods like raising the floor. Only bad news it it has to be back halved but Frank is on it. Pro-charging the new motor would give it killer horse power but it already has 750 and 700 ft. lbs of torque throught most of the RPM range. That is more than enough for autocross and the the bottom of the motor is built to hold up to double the horsepower. So I may start off with a multi stage NOS setup for drag strip bragging rights.

Of course to do worth a darn at the autocross events, I will have to find a more experienced driver. This car will be way more car than I can take advantage of.

[formula]

Formula how do you like your Procar seats. I have been looking at these, and am not sure if I want to go with them or not. I definately like the looks of them.

I love everything about them EXCEPT the seat tracks, combined with seat adapters for a late 2nd gen, make them sit up too high--everybody over 6' tall is miserable at first. You get used to it (I'm 6'3), but I'm still desperately trying to figure out some way to get them down lower and still maintain adjustability. An early 2nd gen should have no problem, but there are two large humps under the seats for catalytic converters on a late 2nd gen that sacrifice a ton of headroom.

Now for a few pics--Sorry that these suck, but my car's down right now getting tweaked for RTTH so I couldn't get out to better light conditions. I'll try to augment these later with some older photos I have--it's my little sister's birthday so I don't have much time.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/54343de2-1.jpg

Here we see the front passenger lower arm and swaybar. Of note: the swaybar end links (at least on the older kits--this may have been updated) have to be cut down from factory height. Also, you can just make out the line of the cut you have to make on the outside of the spring pocket to allow the bags to clear. Your compression adjustment ends up between the two rails of the lower shock mount, which makes it easy to reach but tough to see.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/8e2ea915-1.jpg
Same side, upper. Notice our ridiculous stack of shim attempt to get some friggin' camber into this subframe. This is the sub's fault, not the control arms--mine's just weird. Most people shouldn't have this much trouble getting a decent alignment. You can also see how the rebound adjustment for the upper arms actually comes out of the top of the shock, making on-the-fly adjustment super easy. I kinda love these shocks.

Since my previous shot showed how the lower rear arm bracket that Frank has works, I'll just post this shot of my upper arm.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/d8f26bff-1.jpg

There is a large bracket that bolts to both of the frame rails and then bolts through the rear firewall to two spreader panels you install under/behind your back seats for the upper arms. From there, the DIY approach is to get your axle into place and just swing the arms and brackets down, then tack them into place and weld them up.

Popular hot rodding also had an excellent article on their install....make sure to check it out if you're considering this setup. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0603phr_chevrolet_camaro_air_ride_shockwave_instal l/index.html



Keep in mind if your going to mini tub and use the Air bar, your going to need a offset lower arm we will custom build for you.

OH YEAAHHHHHH I knew we did that for a reason. Haha thanks for keeping me on track good sir!

Gotta run now--I'll update more later.

[Doug1]

I love everything about them EXCEPT the seat tracks, combined with seat adapters for a late 2nd gen, make them sit up too high--everybody over 6' tall is miserable at first. You get used to it (I'm 6'3), but I'm still desperately trying to figure out some way to get them down lower and still maintain adjustability. An early 2nd gen should have no problem, but there are two large humps under the seats for catalytic converters on a late 2nd gen that sacrifice a ton of headroom.



Couldn't you just cut the floor plan and weld in the early gen sections you need? If so, that wouldn't be terribly expensive to do and would only take a skilled fabricator a couple of hours to do.
I've never looked all that closely but may need to do this on the one Frank has.

[formula]

Actually working on a really cool Butternut Yellow convertible getting 2010 Camaro running gear, AME front, CA rear, Big Wilwoods, all the tricks. Unfair is a night and weekend project.

Ah of course, business before pleasure as always. Will we get to see shots upon completion?

[formula]

I have had my eye on a set of Procar Rallys for awhile but wanted to sit in them before ordering them. Wes was kind enough to let me check out his a PSMC2. I ordered a set for my Camaro the following Tuesday!!! Thanks Wes!! They are now sitting in my dining room waiting on my carpet to arrive.

Hey my pleasure man! Let me know if you see any way to snug them down to the floor a little.

[formula]

Wes's car is the standard for late 70's PT Formulas. That car is amazing. There isn't anything that I would have done differently. The Killer Bandit TA is the standard for second gen TA's, or at least it is in my world.

Thanks dude! All you guys sure do know how to make a feller feel like he dd something right--I just designed the car the way it looked in my head from the start, but all the kind words and compliments make me proud of what mr, Jc, my father, and frank's team put together!

[formula]

Couldn't you just cut the floor plan and weld in the early gen sections you need? If so, that wouldn't be terribly expensive to do and would only take a skilled fabricator a couple of hours to do.
I've never looked all that closely but may need to do this on the one Frank has.

Yeah, and if I had it to do over, that'd be one of the things I'd do for sure. Too late for my car, though, as it'd end up most likely meaning recoating the floor, new carpet, and re-doing all of the sound deadening stuff. But for you, yeah definitely look into it.

[killer67]

i don't know how much you are looking to spend on a set of wheels, but a guy over on the www.turbobuick.com (http://www.turbobuick.com) board just had a set of billet 18" 3 piece GNX styled wheels made for his GN that would look absolutely badass on that car. actually, i think he posts here, too..
i think he was trying to get $3k for the set of 4 wheels, which is a lot- but they are beautiful wheels and you'd have one of 2 sets..

Those would be perfect! Nice suggestion - I will look into those

[formula]

Just found that thread withthe gnx wheels... https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68195&highlight=Gnx

[srh3trinity]

Does anybody know which cars had the hump for the catalytic convertors? 75 and up? I am trying to find a set of seat sliders for my 74 now. I can't seem to find out which ones I need for a 74. The car is in the shop and is without interior, so I have a blank slate. I will be waiting to buy until the car comes home, but I am trying to gather information while I can't wrench on it.

[PT_79_TA_461]

thanks for the pics.

[jeff s]

Here's a 79-81 with our Schwartz Performance bolt in full frame and Forgeline TA3P wheels. Email us for pricing.


http://www.schwartzperformance.com/projects.aspx?projectid=13

[PT_79_TA_461]

Here's a 79-81 with our Schwartz Performance bolt in full frame and Forgeline TA3P wheels. Email us for pricing.


http://www.schwartzperformance.com/projects.aspx?projectid=13


thats SICK! what dose that frame go for?

[LeighP]

Does anybody know which cars had the hump for the catalytic convertors? 75 and up? I am trying to find a set of seat sliders for my 74 now. I can't seem to find out which ones I need for a 74. The car is in the shop and is without interior, so I have a blank slate. I will be waiting to buy until the car comes home, but I am trying to gather information while I can't wrench on it.

Floor pans that have the hump for the cat are 1975 and up.

[srh3trinity]

Thanks for the answer on the floorpans. I am 6'4" and when I bought the car there was no interior in it. My Firebird is coming home to roost today. The metal shop guys called and said they were finished and are putting it on the trailer today. I won't be able to work on it for a few weeks, but I am anxious to get it home.

[CCC]

What is the advantage of bags over adjustible coil overs? Do they work as well on the track or just make a nicer ride on the street?

[formula]

What is the advantage of bags over adjustible coil overs? Do they work as well on the track or just make a nicer ride on the street?

Modern bags are very similar to coilovers and work very well on the track--better or worse than actual coilovers is a tough argument, as you'd realistically have to have two identical cars with the same setup (other than the springs) to make an accurate judgement-- but, at the end of the day, to some extent a progressive rate spring is a progressive rate spring, be it made of air or steel. Both springs offer a level of adjustability that is tough to achieve with separate spring-shock units, the air is just a little more on the fly as you can just punch a button or two and retune your springs. When I took the car autocrossing, we were able to readjust shock compression, rebound, and spring rate between every run- it's that quick of a process. Coilovers would have been slower, and might have required waiting until you had finished all your runs to retune spring rate. The fastest car of the day was on bags, and the second fastest was on coils. So, is either setup really "the hot ticket"? No, IMO. If you're more "set and forget", coils may be for you. If you're the type that fiddles a lot with your setup-or the type that needs to be ready to roll rapidly in a variety of situations- air may be a wiser choice. Me, I keep my car as low as I can around town, but in order to get my car home I have to clear several 12"+ speed bumps. With any other setup, I'd be playing taps for my headers in less than a week- this way, I can just punch a button and it's "go go gadget 4 by 4" mode.

[srh3trinity]

The RideTech guys have done a pretty good job of taking their cars out to the Autocross track and proving that it is a worthy suspension option for the Autocross/Road Course. There are plenty of videos out there and on their website. It will come down to whether you want the adjustability and the extra weight of the compressors/tank, etc. I am sure this is minimal. I am on the fence in some regards because I do have to deal with some pretty interesting terrain and steep driveways.

[formula]

In popular hotrodding's testing, air ride's complete kit actually saved a significant amount of weight over stock suspension. Clearly, throwing out the compressor and tank and using coils in the same setup would most likely save even more weight, but I just wanted to put things into perspective against an easy benchmark.