Jeremy Clarkson does it again!!!

[protouringuk]

Last night on the new series of TopGear Jeremy Clarckson once again aired his hatred for American muscle this time on the 2010 Camaro,comparing it to a new AMG merc.
They did a track test between the two,but as usual Clarkson had to have the final say on the outcome of the test saying the camaro was rubbish and hateful,and how good the merc was,
I mean,the two cars couldnt get any different if they tried, ones a purpose built peoples muscle car and the others a overpriced german executive.the camaro over here is about 40000pounds and the merc 70000pounds!!!!!
I personally would have the camaro,Clarkson has his head so far up his own arse im suprised he can stand up straight!
GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!

[novaderrik]

the biggest problem i have with other people is that most of them have different opinions than me...
this might sound weird, but maybe Camaros aren't terribly popular in England..
isn't Clarkson the guy that thinks that the Corvette ZR1 is one of the most crazily impractical and utterly awesome cars ever built?

[ArtosDracon]

Only when he's driving one here in the states, he seems to waver once he crosses the ocean again.

[LeighP]

Clarkson is a Euro-phile....if it doesn't have a European badge on it, as far as he's concerned, its a ****-box.
As our UK friends would say....He's a tosser....

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

You really care what he thinks?

I personally think he needs to order himself some situps with a side of diet... and some aerobics for desert.
im sure those extra pounds are great for a driver test.

[65-Flat6]

dont get your feathers ruffled over someone on tv's opinion, or anyones in gerneal its not that big of a deal...

Personally i think the new camaros arnt that cool either, the only way i would own one was if it was givin to me and I'd sell it to buy an original...

[-The Stig-]

I can't say I'm a huge fan of the newer Camaros myself... love the power, but just can't get past the small windows.

Older Camaros.... I'm all for though. They're yummy.

[Rhino]

Clarkson is a Euro-phile....if it doesn't have a European badge on it, as far as he's concerned, its a ****-box.
As our UK friends would say....He's a tosser....

While pretty accurate, it's not entirely true. He did seem to dig the CTS-V.

[LSx_88_Ciera]

I can't say I'm a huge fan of the newer Camaros myself... love the power, but just can't get past the small windows.

Older Camaros.... I'm all for though. They're yummy.

Agreed and it need to go on a diet.

[sik68]

SS v E63 is an odd comparison yes, but they did mention multiple times that it was nearly twice the price. The episode was meant to show that there are multiple price points in the muscle car game. The SS is a level 1 or 2 muscle car...the E63 is simply on a different level. That Top Gear segment was all about telling the Camaro to check its ego at the door.

LOL at its power lap.

[06RangerSTX]

He also loved the Ford GT when it came out...

[Rhino]

He also loved the Ford GT when it came out...
He still owns a GT if I recall correctly. :)

[06RangerSTX]

I Believe it, I think he drives it all the time...

[PT_79_TA_461]

what happens is that, when he came over to the States, i dont think he had some one feeding him lines (IE, the writers) and he was on his own with the camera crew to test the cars as he pleased, then when he tested the cars again in the UK, he had to go by what the writers had written. he loved the Ford GT, then he bashed it being a multi country involvement due to how the old one was built (in the UK by lola) and the new for the suspension or the frame being made or engineered by lotus.... it gose on and on, same deal with the stang= solid axle, vette= plastic with a leaf spring, Caddy= cheap interior and the bonging ,Viper= no trac control engine being the biggest on the market with not enough power to reflect it (i must say hes right on that one it needs 4valve per cylinder overhead cams and direct injection) now the camaro. i know Hammond had the Chally when thay did the U.S special but did thay ever test it in the UK?

apart from the U.S and U.S. car bashing, i still love that show. nothing else like it.

[Nessumsar]

I too am not a fan of the new Camaro or it's small windows, and as a whole, American cars have been sub-par for soo long.

Clarkson sold his GT a while back IIRC.

And you have to remember what market he is catering to as well, the blokes on the other side of the pond have a different idea of what is funny.

[Wicked]

Yep, he loves certain american cars. CTS-V, Ford GT(until he had so many problems), and the Pontiac G8(Vauxhall something or other in Europe). The truth is, brits and europeans in general like a car that's built with better quality, better materials. The primary thing Clarkson hated about the ZR-1 was its plastic-y interior and exterior. The Camaro while a decent car, is just not that nice. It doesn't have the poise and engineering that the Merc or most other europeans have.

[buickfunnycar.com]

Yep, he loves certain american cars. CTS-V, Ford GT(until he had so many problems), and the Pontiac G8(Vauxhall something or other in Europe). The truth is, brits and europeans in general like a car that's built with better quality, better materials. The primary thing Clarkson hated about the ZR-1 was its plastic-y interior and exterior. The Camaro while a decent car, is just not that nice. It doesn't have the poise and engineering that the Merc or most other europeans have.

If you read between the lines,Clarkson's right...outside of power,these cars ain't all it.
This 2011 F-450 King Ranch I just sold has more plastic in the interior than the law should allow...especially for $67K!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Damn True]

He still owns a GT if I recall correctly. :)

No. He got rid of it. It was broken A LOT and very poorly supported by Ford-UK.

[79-TA]

Clarkson is consistently biased on Top Gear, the show. That said, if you ever get a chance to read Top Gear the magazine, you'll find he's more fair minded and less ridiculous towards American cars.

[novaderrik]

i've seen him say that American cars are good.. in America.. but he seems to always think they just don't work out all that well in Britain where the roads aren't really built to accommodate that type of car.

[ArtosDracon]

To be fair, he also ahd a very bad experience with Ford of Europe not handling is GT woes very well. If I spent that much on a car and had such terrible service, I would be bitter.

[Damn True]

This

To be fair, he also ahd a very bad experience with Ford of Europe not handling is GT woes very well. If I spent that much on a car and had such terrible service, I would be bitter.

[wmhjr]

I'd agree that the comparison is pretty tough. If money was no object I'd DEFINITELY take the AMG. I'd love to have one. It's one of those "you get what you pay for" scenarios. But the cars are dramatically different.

As for the Camaro, I'm just not a big fan. It's "almost" but "not quite". I absolutely detest the interior, and am not real crazy about the tail. I think Ford did a much better job with the Stang. The window visibility of the Camaro is very poor.

I wonder what would be a better comparison for a european car vs a camaro?

[wmhjr]

same deal with the stang= solid axle.

True, but it handles pretty well even with the solid rear axle


vette= plastic with a leaf spring.

Plastic? Absolutely. Recent thread about the vette here shows that owners also agree that the interior just doesn't measure up.


Caddy= cheap interior and the bonging.

ABSOLUTELY! CTS-V has great potential. The interior isn't even close.


Viper= no trac control engine being the biggest on the market with not enough power to reflect it.

Yup.

I think his delivery is difficult for those of us on this side of the pond to engage with. Different culture over there. But many of his positions are pretty accurate.

[Wicked]

To each his own right?

And Musclecarjohn is right, other than power, most american cars are rubbish(haha).

I have loved my 2001 Mustang Cobra for the most part. But after working for Honda for a while, I started to see how crappy certain aspects are and how cheaply built it is.

[fantasygoat]

I like how the Camaro came in at the bottom of the list too.

[ProjectSideOiler]

To be fair, he also ahd a very bad experience with Ford of Europe not handling is GT woes very well. If I spent that much on a car and had such terrible service, I would be bitter.

He was pissed at Ford but turns out the issue stemmed from an aftermarket stereo/alarm system and had nothing to do with what ford built.

[MonzaRacer]

Well Mrecede can take the AMG and the CL600 and shove them.
My brother got a hard on for the AMG, kept saying he could get older ones for song yada yada, and I told him yeah buy it you can afford to maintain it. So he picks up a 02 CL600 90k, "clean" from Chicago Toy Store for $15k, brings it home and week later water leak and water cooled alternator went out.
Over $1000 to fix him self!
Then has issue with cylinder kill, so he thinks of controller $1200 normal $800 online, not fixed.
So he takes it to local Mercedes guy, this is connected with Mercedes cause they had to ship a major part from Germany after many calls to Mercedes tech line.
This fix on car he had less than 6 months,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
$11,000 . F__K THAT. I told him to go see if dealer would give him good trade on a 08 Roush Blackjack, but nooooo he had to keep it.
Mercedes can go sink in the ocean, no crap from them is worth that kind of cash.
Heck for that kind of cash I could have converted it to a twin turbo LSx!

[ArtosDracon]

He was pissed at Ford but turns out the issue stemmed from an aftermarket stereo/alarm system and had nothing to do with what ford built.

Source? I simply hadn't heard.

Oh, and P.S. this thread - :nopity:

[79PonchoUK]

If you read between the lines,Clarkson's right...outside of power,these cars ain't all it.
This 2011 F-450 King Ranch I just sold has more plastic in the interior than the law should allow...especially for $67K!

Rubbish.

French cars are popular here, clarkson often rates them too.

The difference in plastics between a french car and an american car is huge. The american car is vastly superior.


It's ALL fashion to knock american cars. Top gear started it because very few people in england could argue with them and in the UK people love to hear they're doing better than america. Because top gear did it, and it's now popular in the US, the americans have started at it too.

German engineering is often hugely overrated and I'll back that statement up with examples, technical reasoning and a plastic 'tap' test on volkswagen door cards. :lol:

[wmhjr]

Well Mrecede can take the AMG and the CL600 and shove them.
My brother got a hard on for the AMG, kept saying he could get older ones for song yada yada, and I told him yeah buy it you can afford to maintain it. So he picks up a 02 CL600 90k, "clean" from Chicago Toy Store for $15k, brings it home and week later water leak and water cooled alternator went out.
Over $1000 to fix him self!
Then has issue with cylinder kill, so he thinks of controller $1200 normal $800 online, not fixed.
So he takes it to local Mercedes guy, this is connected with Mercedes cause they had to ship a major part from Germany after many calls to Mercedes tech line.
This fix on car he had less than 6 months,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
$11,000 . F__K THAT. I told him to go see if dealer would give him good trade on a 08 Roush Blackjack, but nooooo he had to keep it.
Mercedes can go sink in the ocean, no crap from them is worth that kind of cash.
Heck for that kind of cash I could have converted it to a twin turbo LSx!

Your brother got taken to the cleaners. One bad second hand story about Mercedes (and an '02 CL600 w/90k for $15k was a bad purchasing decision, as well as it is not an AMG by any stretch) doesn't make a whole brand bad. But bottom line, your brother got taken.

To me, this story is about how a guy bought an (at least) 8 yr old car that he thought was an AMG (at least that's how this reads) used, and then got ripped off when there was a mechanical failure. If the engine blew on an '02 CTS-V with 90k miles would you be saying the same thing?

[wmhjr]

Rubbish.

French cars are popular here, clarkson often rates them too.

The difference in plastics between a french car and an american car is huge. The american car is vastly superior.


That's like saying that your Mom is way more hot than your sister. Or the AMC Matador had way better styling than the Pacer.



It's ALL fashion to knock american cars. Top gear started it because very few people in england could argue with them and in the UK people love to hear they're doing better than america. Because top gear did it, and it's now popular in the US, the americans have started at it too.

And now I'll call rubbish. On steroids. The above statement is BS. Americans have been frustrated with the quality of domestic cars for decades - therein the popularity of the Camry and the Accord 20 years ago. FAR longer ago than Top Gear ever existed.


German engineering is often hugely overrated and I'll back that statement up with examples, technical reasoning and a plastic 'tap' test on volkswagen door cards. :lol:

We've been down this road before. It amazes me how few people really understand that individual examples are relatively meaningless. You see stories about how AMG is worthless because an 8 (or more) year old CL600 which is NOT an AMG and has 90k miles on it, bought at the Toy Store so you have no idea how it was maintained, had a really expensive repair of unknown detail done by an unknown shop. Yet, those same people have absolutely no idea that the part in question is used on multiple models, and has an incredibly low failure rate even in extreme circumstances. Or people talk about their "technical reasoning" and "examples" yet ignore that for every point they make, others will have opposing examples. Let's be clear. I guarantee you that for every flaw (other than price) you find in an AMG I'll find 10 in the Camaro. Which is reasonable, given the price. And let's not use some "tap test" on a VW as data about an AMG, OK?

I'm not knocking the camaro. I don't think a comparison between it and the AMG is reasonable. I already posted that I wonder what a "relevant" comparison would be. But the camaro SURE ain't perfect. IMHO it has perhaps the ugliest interior in a new car period, with cheap materials. I don't like the back end, nor the window lines. I sure don't like the forced wheel sizes, and the fact that you can't run anything more "performance oriented" because the wheels get lost in the wells. But on the other side of the coin, the camaro is a pretty good performer, and is pretty good looking, and seems to be pretty decent quality. It's a step in the right direction, but it sure isn't the final destination.

[79PonchoUK]

That's like saying that your Mom is way more hot than your sister. Or the AMC Matador had way better styling than the Pacer.


Whatever floats yer boat. lol



And now I'll call rubbish. On steroids. The above statement is BS. Americans have been frustrated with the quality of domestic cars for decades - therein the popularity of the Camry and the Accord 20 years ago. FAR longer ago than Top Gear ever existed.


To me, it looks like people have been particularly frustrated at american car quality for 20 years........for about 6-7 years.


People here have hated Rovers since the 70s.....except....they haven't....the discontent came about as reasoning for Rover going bust (which wasn't truly down to quality of the product). They produced some cars that rusted incredibly quick, and those cars had a bad reputation. But in the 70s and 80s japanese cars rusted far worse. There are none left, at all. That's not remembered though, is it because they're in favour now.



We've been down this road before. It amazes me how few people really understand that individual examples are relatively meaningless. You see stories about how AMG is worthless because an 8 (or more) year old CL600 which is NOT an AMG and has 90k miles on it, bought at the Toy Store so you have no idea how it was maintained, had a really expensive repair of unknown detail done by an unknown shop. Yet, those same people have absolutely no idea that the part in question is used on multiple models, and has an incredibly low failure rate even in extreme circumstances. Or people talk about their "technical reasoning" and "examples" yet ignore that for every point they make, others will have opposing examples. Let's be clear. I guarantee you that for every flaw (other than price) you find in an AMG I'll find 10 in the Camaro. Which is reasonable, given the price. And let's not use some "tap test" on a VW as data about an AMG, OK?
.

Lets get something straight...you seem very intelligent and generally a good bloke, but you're being hypocritical. You were a prime example of using your own single example. I've given details in numerous post before spanning the whole range of the argument - i'm not looking at a single detail from a single person from a single perspective at all. I base it on my knowledge of marketing...as a marketer, engineering...as an ex-engineer and as an enthusiast. I rarely use a single personal experience.
You however, were the first to chime in with "i've had numerous german cars and never had trouble". The only arguments you put forward seem to be about how other people are arguing. Perhaps best to the subject and stop trying to hypocritically council people on how they debate.

The tap test was a light jest at how people praise german cars now. OK?

[79PonchoUK]

Ignoring the above arguments, there is no doubt that Clarkson is heavily biased against the american cars - proven simply and blatently by the fundamentally incorrect 'facts' he spouts not just on the TV show, but in the Top Gear magazine and his columns in the UK newspapers.

Simply put, he's an entertainer who people refer to for fact. It's bound to get people's backs up.


He certainly is a good entertainer though. It's a shame it actually has an unfair effect on peoples jobs.

[CraigMorrison]

Clarkson is consistently biased on Top Gear, the show. That said, if you ever get a chance to read Top Gear the magazine, you'll find he's more fair minded and less ridiculous towards American cars.

His newspaper column is great too!

Unfair to compare those two cars. The E63 AMG is an amazing car - I got to go for a ride in one with a MB factory driver over in the UK. It's a serious car, but it's double the price of a 2010 Camaro.

[79PonchoUK]

His newspaper column is great too!

Unfair to compare those two cars. The E63 AMG is an amazing car - I got to go for a ride in one with a MB factory driver over in the UK. It's a serious car, but it's double the price of a 2010 Camaro.

$22,000 - It's cheaper than some diesel VW golfs. It can't be compared to anything.

It should be a privilege that the Camaro is automatically compared to cars twice the price....but in the end it seems to be detrimental. It's a shame.

[wmhjr]

To me, it looks like people have been particularly frustrated at american car quality for 20 years........for about 6-7 years.

Actually it's more than 30 years since the Camry took the US by storm. It's pretty simple. Look at market share and growth over the past 35 years. The US started getting hammered in the 70s - that's 40 years by my math. We can conjecture all we want but sale figures are facts. People voted with their wallets - unfortunately, a little too late. IMHO if people had done so earlier, it would have forced the big 3 to respond quicker when they had both the market share and the resources to do so. It's never been a question of capability - more a question of focus and understanding what customers want.


People here have hated Rovers since the 70s.....except....they haven't....the discontent came about as reasoning for Rover going bust (which wasn't truly down to quality of the product). They produced some cars that rusted incredibly quick, and those cars had a bad reputation. But in the 70s and 80s japanese cars rusted far worse. There are none left, at all. That's not remembered though, is it because they're in favour now.

And you're comparing Rover to the Big 3? Beyond which you don't think quality was not a major downfall of Rover? Really? No problem - it's an opinion.


Lets get something straight...you seem very intelligent and generally a good bloke, but you're being hypocritical. You were a prime example of using your own single example. I've given details in numerous post before spanning the whole range of the argument - i'm not looking at a single detail from a single person from a single perspective at all. I base it on my knowledge of marketing...as a marketer, engineering...as an ex-engineer and as an enthusiast. I rarely use a single personal experience.
You however, were the first to chime in with "i've had numerous german cars and never had trouble". The only arguments you put forward seem to be about how other people are arguing. Perhaps best to the subject and stop trying to hypocritically council people on how they debate.

The tap test was a light jest at how people praise german cars now. OK?

Actually, you're being not quite honest here. My comments in a different thread entirely about my experiences with german cars were in response to some very limited and singular comments by a couple other posters - including you. And I've been very clear that YMMV. It's also why I did not bring up personal examples here. But honestly, in this particular thread, the "examples" go way beyond being ludicrous. We're talking about a brand new AMG and one poster uses an (at least) 8 yr old stock (non-AMG) used high mileage purchase by his brother as an example of why AMG sucks. You use the example of a "tap test" on a VW.

I also think you're probably a decent "bloke" but honestly have little confidence in your lack of bias. As opposed to where I give credit for major improvements in the camaro for example, I have seen nothing but german engineering bashing from you, and no "engineering" data to support it at all. I'm not being hypocritical. Just honest. Sometimes people don't like honesty. Oh well.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Let's just not confuse opinions with facts.

[wmhjr]

$22,000 - It's cheaper than some diesel VW golfs. It can't be compared to anything.

It should be a privilege that the Camaro is automatically compared to cars twice the price....but in the end it seems to be detrimental. It's a shame.

$22K stripped. I doubt that a single unit has been sold for $22K. But the point is valid. As I said before, I wonder what import to measure it against. It's a different breed.

OTOH, if you measure it against its domestic competition (Mustang and Challenger) it's not always a rosy picture. Motor Trend did so for the 2010 and 2011 model years, and the Stang seems to dominate it. Their largest complaints were (in no particular order) the fact that it's too heavy for no apparent reason (the stang is a lot lighter) the visibility out of it just plain sucks, the interior is lacking. They are, however, consistently impressed with its handling capability but less so with its lack of precise steering feel. Several comments about it not aging well.

Like I said, it's a neat car and a real improvement, but to me it falls into the "almost but not quite" category. Tons of potential left on the drawing board.

It's hard to come up with an "import bias" argument in this case. All 3 are Big 3 icons. Either 6 or 7 testers in each case. Universally the Mustang comes out the winner. Not surprising to me. A friend has a 2010 Shelby GT500 and it's an impressive car to be sure.

[dipren443]

He was pissed at Ford but turns out the issue stemmed from an aftermarket stereo/alarm system and had nothing to do with what ford built.

Yup,

I believe it was an immobilizer that insurance required. Not installed by Ford I am fairly certain.

[79PonchoUK]

Actually it's more than 30 years since the Camry took the US by storm. It's pretty simple. Look at market share and growth over the past 35 years. The US started getting hammered in the 70s - that's 40 years by my math. We can conjecture all we want but sale figures are facts. People voted with their wallets - unfortunately, a little too late. IMHO if people had done so earlier, it would have forced the big 3 to respond quicker when they had both the market share and the resources to do so. It's never been a question of capability - more a question of focus and understanding what customers want.
.

The big 3 weren't hammered in the 70s. They suddenly gained foreign competition but they were hardly hammered.

Again, it's anti-domestic 'facts' being blown out of proportion.



And you're comparing Rover to the Big 3? Beyond which you don't think quality was not a major downfall of Rover? Really? No problem - it's an opinion.
.

Rover was our big 3. It was a big producer. It made the most successful car ever. It made some exceptional cars and continued to sell well until they shut up shop. The rover 25/MGZR, Rover 75 etc were hugely popular and actually pretty good cars. Unions and lack of competitive labour costs killed rover - along with a number of bad PR episodes.

You've watched Top Gear though, so you seem to know more about it.



Actually, you're being not quite honest here. My comments in a different thread entirely about my experiences with german cars were in response to some very limited and singular comments by a couple other posters - including you. And I've been very clear that YMMV. It's also why I did not bring up personal examples here. But honestly, in this particular thread, the "examples" go way beyond being ludicrous. We're talking about a brand new AMG and one poster uses an (at least) 8 yr old stock (non-AMG) used high mileage purchase by his brother as an example of why AMG sucks. You use the example of a "tap test" on a VW.

I also think you're probably a decent "bloke" but honestly have little confidence in your lack of bias. As opposed to where I give credit for major improvements in the camaro for example, I have seen nothing but german engineering bashing from you, and no "engineering" data to support it at all. I'm not being hypocritical. Just honest. Sometimes people don't like honesty. Oh well.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Let's just not confuse opinions with facts.

You're using your opinion as fact easily as much as anyone else.

You'll find 10 faults on the Camaro for each fault on a German car? That's fact? I don't think you read what you're typing.

I'll give you a quick example (I only have time for one, sorry) of how these written 'facts' misrepresent good cars...The vauxhall corsa, rated the most likely car in the UK to fail it's MOT (annual safety test a car needs after it's 3 years old). They were slammed internet-wide and even on TV because of this revelation - NEVER BUY A CORSA BECAUSE THEY ARE NO GOOD AFTER THREE YEARS OLD.
What do they always fail on? A CV gaitor clip. £0.49p fix. Otherwise they fail on very little. Does that fact misrepresent the car? Certainly....would you know about it when quoting such facts -as facts? No.

American cars recently topped the german cars in dependability polls. How do you answer that fact? Reckon there's more to that one?

I don't 'just bash' the German cars either, I just bring them down from the god-like status you're elevating them to. I OWN a german car, I wouldn't buy a **** product, but I do notice how much of their reputation is myth....no, not from just the cars I've owned, but the many road tests I've done in the past.

American engineering is everything German engineering is. Even if it is down to differing 'levels' of engineering.....the germans will trump the americans on the surface - the parts you have to touch, but the american engineering uses better fundamentals, whether we're talking electronics, engine/gearbox configuration or even materials.

And you're right - it's not as simple as a tap test.....to which you still haven't fathomed (despite me spelling it out) was a tongue-in-cheek comment.

[southernfriedcj]

This 2011 F-450 King Ranch I just sold has more plastic in the interior than the law should allow...especially for $67K!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

It's a truck for christsakes, not a 120k touring car. I have owned 10 Superduty Fords since 1997 and I think the interiors are great for a truck.
I also thinks anybody who pays a premium for a "King Ranch" package is a dolt, unless they happen to own the King Ranch.

[Damn True]

The big 3 weren't hammered in the 70s. They suddenly gained foreign competition but they were hardly hammered.


Can you share the market share analysis that you are basing this assertion on?

1970-2000 I think would give the most accurate picture.

[79PonchoUK]

Can you share the market share analysis that you are basing this assertion on?

1970-2000 I think would give the most accurate picture.

I've not looked at it much at all TBH. Maybe not enough to argue with, but lets see.

I know that in 1991, the japanese brands cornered a third of the US auto market. I also know that until recently they had seen year on year increases in sales in the US.

Now, even in 1991, a third of the market share for all japanese brands isn't HAMMERING the big three.



If I was in a market that had 7 main players and two of those players took 33% of the market, I'd not feel like they were 'hammering' the rest of us. Proving successful, certainly, but they were being hammered no less than the german imports....and besides, did that make the german imports bad cars? Because they didn't sell as well?

Of course not. That's just crazy. The late 70s/early 80s will have been a shock to the big 3, considering the growth in sales of japanese cars....but that in no way means the japanese manufacturers 'hammered' them.





Basing the quality of a car on its ability to compete in a market is rediculous...people here are getting to grips with that idea with certain cars. The most popular cars are french. Everyone knows they're generally relatively ****...it's a proven concensus, but people buy them because of the deals. Japanese manufacturers build dependable cars, generally, but what sold them is marketing. They had a nice jump in the 80s because they were something new. Different ideas, not necessarily better, but people like new and they like different....particularly if it doesn't look like it costs them any trouble.

Whether that marketing be technical buzz words, working on the fuel crisis, working from reliability statistics (remember my corsa example) or just managing better PR. Nobody here thinks french cars are the reliable, well built option...so why don't more people buy japanese?

Simple, marketing.

It's weird, just lately you can see a notable shift of favour away from japanese cars in enthusiast circles. Not just the circles I'm in, but on talking with people in the industry. It may be that one day, fashion, market trends and marketing prowess shift in favour of US manufacturers again. It won't be the products that determine it, that's for sure. I've spent too long marketing good and bad products for other people to believe it.

I've said all I can say on the issue. People will be asleep now. Sorry, wake up, it's over. :lol:

[79-TA]

American cars do currently suffer from the "perception gap." Consumer opinion lags at least 5 years behind what is actually currently offered. Since GM and Ford have been putting out pretty good product since '04 the perception of American cars is finally on the rise again.

Much of what helped the popularity of foreign cars is that people began moving to them once cars in general became less terrible. Imagine going from a "midsized" '70's GM dinosaur to the subsequent generation of '80's fuel injected imports. Fair comparison? Not really, but transitions like that made a huge impact on people.

It's not as simple as foreign makers just coming in and giving detroit a wake up call. Detroit was competitive in the 80's and 90's. The early 00's can be thought of as a lapse, but the competition wasn't exactly solid either.

[wmhjr]

American engineering is everything German engineering is. Even if it is down to differing 'levels' of engineering.....the germans will trump the americans on the surface - the parts you have to touch, but the american engineering uses better fundamentals, whether we're talking electronics, engine/gearbox configuration or even materials.

And you're right - it's not as simple as a tap test.....to which you still haven't fathomed (despite me spelling it out) was a tongue-in-cheek comment.

With comments like the above, it's clear that you're in denial and I give up with you. Do you work for one of the Big 3 by any chance? Just curious. Buy what you want, say what you want. But you're on another planet. If you're going to bash Clarkson you should know that I'd put you on the other extreme. It's very difficult to determine where you're joking or being sarcastic because so many of your comments are out in left field with a catchers mitt.

The Big 3 was not "hammered"? Really? Just marketing? So having an import being the longest running market leader in the US is not getting hammered? Really? Just marketing? The Camry having the very highest sales figures in the country just a myth?

And let's be accurate, shall we? I didn't say I'd find 10 faults in a camaro for every one you find in a "german car". I said I'd find 10 in every one you find in an "AMG". That's my claim, and I'd conservatively stick with it. Please don't lower yourself to changing what people here say.

The point is that I'd EXPECT that to be the case. The AMG is a completely different beast. I said before it was an unfair comparison - that's not good enough for you. You seem to be prey to some sort of condition that makes one believe a 30K car (no, not $22K) should BE the equal of a $100K+ car. I don't expect that. Doesn't mean the AMG is crap. Or that the Camaro is crap. Bad comparison. My question - as before - was what WOULD be a good comparison. Perhaps it's just that Pony cars don't exist in those markets, maybe? I'd be frankly real happy if the $30k car could best its domestic rivals, like the Mustang. To date, it can't. Or maybe if it didn't have a dash that looked like it came out of a Nintendo game. Or windows that you need a periscope to get decent visibility out of. Or wheel wells that didn't require you to run poorly performing 20" wheels in order for it not to look like a 4x4.

But that's just me.

But here's another idea. Perhaps you'd be more aware of what happened between the Big 3 and the imports in the 70s-90s if maybe you lived here, in an autoworkers family that actually BUILT the friggin cars. Just an idea.

[wmhjr]

American cars do currently suffer from the "perception gap." Consumer opinion lags at least 5 years behind what is actually currently offered. Since GM and Ford have been putting out pretty good product since '04 the perception of American cars is finally on the rise again.

Much of what helped the popularity of foreign cars is that people began moving to them once cars in general became less terrible. Imagine going from a "midsized" '70's GM dinosaur to the subsequent generation of '80's fuel injected imports. Fair comparison? Not really, but transitions like that made a huge impact on people.

It's not as simple as foreign makers just coming in and giving detroit a wake up call. Detroit was competitive in the 80's and 90's. The early 00's can be thought of as a lapse, but the competition wasn't exactly solid either.

I think you've got some good points here. However, I'd also say the 80s were the latter part of the detroit dark ages, and they didn't really compete. Think about the crappy throttle body injection, the Caddy 4-6-8 crap motors, the VERY poor fit and finish. There is little doubt that into the 90s, Honda and Toyota cleaned the clocks of the Big 3 in terms of REAL reliability (not some paid off JD Powers crap)

I also agree that Detroit is building far better stuff today. Way better, in fact. I have a good deal of what you may call "inside information" having lived through the GM fiascos. Very close family members involved with both UAW and corporate GM activities, and since this was where our food was effectively coming from, we paid attention. GM for example dropped the ball big time. They were arrogant. I know for a fact that very senior GM execs actually stated that "We're GM. It doesn't matter what we build, people will buy it". And that Fisher Body got so big for its collective britches that GM finally had to break it up. Anybody wonder why the Fisher Body HQ building in Detroit was bigger than their "owner" GM corporate HQ across the street? How's that working out now?

In the 80s the only thing that kept the big 3 in relative control was marketing. A massive blitz to "buy American" (at any cost). What did it deliver? Massively overly bloated and liability ridden dinosaurs that had so much long term debt that by the time the roosters came home to roost they no longer had the means to easily retool and finance getting back in the drivers seat. All while the competition was relentlessly focusing on what consumers actually WANTED.

The problem now is of the Big 3, you have Government Motors, Chrysler who nobody knows if they'll survive another 2 years, and Ford who mortgaged themselves at just the right time and is now doing OK. Quality is better at Ford and GM. Not at Chrysler. How many people are aware of the warranty claims for convertible tops being denied by Chrysler now? There's lots more. It could have been avoided by plain speaking and honesty, forcing capitalistic corporations that WERE private (as opposed to taxpayer) owned to focus. Now it's gonna be tough and we're all paying for it. So long as some people still have their heads in the sand it's going to continue.

[79PonchoUK]

With comments like the above, it's clear that you're in denial and I give up with you. Do you work for one of the Big 3 by any chance? Just curious. Buy what you want, say what you want. But you're on another planet. If you're going to bash Clarkson you should know that I'd put you on the other extreme. It's very difficult to determine where you're joking or being sarcastic because so many of your comments are out in left field with a catchers mitt.

The Big 3 was not "hammered"? Really? Just marketing? So having an import being the longest running market leader in the US is not getting hammered? Really? Just marketing? The Camry having the very highest sales figures in the country just a myth?

And let's be accurate, shall we? I didn't say I'd find 10 faults in a camaro for every one you find in a "german car". I said I'd find 10 in every one you find in an "AMG". That's my claim, and I'd conservatively stick with it. Please don't lower yourself to changing what people here say.

The point is that I'd EXPECT that to be the case. The AMG is a completely different beast. I said before it was an unfair comparison - that's not good enough for you. You seem to be prey to some sort of condition that makes one believe a 30K car (no, not $22K) should BE the equal of a $100K+ car. I don't expect that. Doesn't mean the AMG is crap. Or that the Camaro is crap. Bad comparison. My question - as before - was what WOULD be a good comparison. Perhaps it's just that Pony cars don't exist in those markets, maybe? I'd be frankly real happy if the $30k car could best its domestic rivals, like the Mustang. To date, it can't. Or maybe if it didn't have a dash that looked like it came out of a Nintendo game. Or windows that you need a periscope to get decent visibility out of. Or wheel wells that didn't require you to run poorly performing 20" wheels in order for it not to look like a 4x4.

But that's just me.

But here's another idea. Perhaps you'd be more aware of what happened between the Big 3 and the imports in the 70s-90s if maybe you lived here, in an autoworkers family that actually BUILT the friggin cars. Just an idea.

I wrote out a post explaining why I'm experienced enough in these cars for my point to be valid, but it asked me to log in again and I lost the lot.

Suffice to say, The number of german and american cars in the UK give me a good idea of what either are like. I've worked on most cars from either side of the pond and tested many in ways you probably haven't. My opinions have basis even if they're shared with a minority....and I'm bored of you trying to discredit me rather than my points.

We'll save these people any more eye-rolling and bash heads in another topic, another time.

[79PonchoUK]

I'll add, I never liked most chrysler products. Excluding the Cherokee maybe.
For me, GM have always averaged as the best of the big 3. Particularly in the past 15 years. I simply don't get the quality concerns of cars like the 4th gen F-bodies etc. There was nothing wrong with the interior whatsoever, the mechanicals were durable (except optispark lol). It compared with anything you could buy of a similar price, and compared well.


And if you're mentioning the Caddy 4-6-8 crap motors, throttle body injection etc. I'll mention BMWs Vanos, the BMW nikosil liners etc. With innovations comes risk, sometimes it backfires. The caddy engine was a truly innovative idea that they got wrong. They didn't do that on the 'if we build it, people will buy it' philosophy. If they were running that ideal then they wouldn't have bothered trying that technology out. The idea is now in use, 20 years later, albeit with different methods.

Look at the histories of the companies...for the past 40 years they've tried every different type of car they could, every technology - HARDLY an example of companies in complacency.
If they ran by the ideal that 'if we build it, they'll buy it' then they wouldn't have tried anything new. Ever. Unless we actually speak to the top brass of the decades in question, we can just as easily write those quotes off as hearsay.

Damn, I said I'd stopped the argument. :lol: sorry. lol

[Damn True]

I've not looked at it much at all TBH. Maybe not enough to argue with, but lets see.

I know that in 1991, the japanese brands cornered a third of the US auto market. I also know that until recently they had seen year on year increases in sales in the US.

Now, even in 1991, a third of the market share for all japanese brands isn't HAMMERING the big three.



If I was in a market that had 7 main players and two of those players took 33% of the market, I'd not feel like they were 'hammering' the rest of us. Proving successful, certainly, but they were being hammered no less than the german imports....and besides, did that make the german imports bad cars? Because they didn't sell as well?

Of course not. That's just crazy. The late 70s/early 80s will have been a shock to the big 3, considering the growth in sales of japanese cars....but that in no way means the japanese manufacturers 'hammered' them.



i' set aside the fact that your assertions are based on assumptions and conjecture and not any empirical data. You are wrong on your perception of what losing a significant chunk of market share can do to a company. Losing 1/3 of market share can and often does completely tank companies.

"Hammered" is a pretty apt description. The fact that they've survived this long is testament in part, to the management that we all enjoy deriding from time to time, but it also says something about the import of those companies in that the .gov and banking industries have taken it upon themselves to prop the companies up more times than is easily justifiable.

[sik68]

Losing market share is also an inevitable effect of globalization. The proper response is to minimize share loss, and gain share in other markets.

[wmhjr]

And if you're mentioning the Caddy 4-6-8 crap motors, throttle body injection etc. I'll mention BMWs Vanos, the BMW nikosil liners etc.

I'll stop too after this one. Comparing the Caddy 4-6-8 to VANOS shows your massively different perspective. VANOS and VANOS 2 are IMHO huge successes. I've owned a number of them, though that makes no difference. The differences between VANOS and the Caddy system are night and day. VANOS works. VANOS boosts torque and overall power. It's a leading technology that was effectively implemented. Nikosil liners were frankly used by many manufacturers on ALL continents.

Bad, bad attempt at a comparison. Matter of fact, I think you just made my point. Suffice it to say that I'm not trying to discredit you. I'm simply pointing out that I don't trust your obvious bias, and that you're making statements as to the "why" things happened in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s HERE in terms of the Big 3 manufacturing when you clearly are without any experience in those areas. Sure, you may have driven some of the product. While we can agree that the quality of 2 of the Big 3 has increased sharply, some of your claims go well beyond the ludicrous (such as stating that US Domestic material quality is superior for example that MB or BMW.

I recently stayed in a Holiday Inn Express :)

[79PonchoUK]

I'll stop too after this one. Comparing the Caddy 4-6-8 to VANOS shows your massively different perspective. VANOS and VANOS 2 are IMHO huge successes. I've owned a number of them, though that makes no difference. The differences between VANOS and the Caddy system are night and day. VANOS works. VANOS boosts torque and overall power. It's a leading technology that was effectively implemented. Nikosil liners were frankly used by many manufacturers on ALL continents.

Bad, bad attempt at a comparison. Matter of fact, I think you just made my point. Suffice it to say that I'm not trying to discredit you. I'm simply pointing out that I don't trust your obvious bias, and that you're making statements as to the "why" things happened in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s HERE in terms of the Big 3 manufacturing when you clearly are without any experience in those areas. Sure, you may have driven some of the product. While we can agree that the quality of 2 of the Big 3 has increased sharply, some of your claims go well beyond the ludicrous (such as stating that US Domestic material quality is superior for example that MB or BMW.

I recently stayed in a Holiday Inn Express :)

I'm sorry, I wanted to stop, but I can't let that lie.....you're showing what you say I'm showing. It's not night and day, they're fundamentally very similar problems indeed.

VANOS was a huge PITA for BMW. Much of it was well swept under the rug but the problems with that system have cost them a lot of money and certainly didn't make it an easy system to make 'huge' success of, you can see that by the number of times it was dropped from the specsheet. If you can find a single VANOS bmw over 10 years old that hasn't had, or shows signs of a VANOS fault, I'll fly to the US and hand you a cheque for $10. It was there to make the engine more economical for it's size - like the caddy 4-6-8, which like the VANOS worked fine when in tip-top condition, but inevitably ended up with problems which, like the vanos, led to running problems (or in the VANOS case, nasty rattles too).

How is it not comparable? Because there was 10 years between the two efforts?

I'll admit, the nikasil liner is partly down to us having **** fuel....it's no excuse though. There were a few engines using nikasil lining at that time and it was BMW/JAG engines that showed the huge number of failures. On top of that, BMW released an engine with nikasil liners even after they had been made aware of the problems with exisiting engines....

....of course, with BMW, such a thing was honest and a mistake. How could they have known, it wasn't their fault.
With GM it's 'they sold it because they didn't care'.

Please.

If anything, you are making my point.

Re: Your comment about my thoughts ont he materials....
The materials you touch on a BMW are often very good. Some other materials aren't as nice as those you'll find on a GM product though. Strip down a modern BMW engine, get underneath a modern BMW and tell me the fixings are made using better materials. Do it, then come back to me. Tell me how most of the rubber products on any Volkswagen or Audi over 5 years old don't need replacing.

Maybe we're both equally as crazy and blind to reality....but maybe you do subscribe to the 'tap test' :lol:




PS, I drive a £22,000 BMW everyday that has an interior that makes a Mustang feel like a Bentley inside. It's cheap, it's plastic, it's rattly and the car itself has about 5 EXTREMELY common, costly faults, one of which is certainly dangerous. You'll ignore that though, no doubt. It somehow doesn't count because it's BMW.

[79PonchoUK]

i' set aside the fact that your assertions are based on assumptions and conjecture and not any empirical data. You are wrong on your perception of what losing a significant chunk of market share can do to a company. Losing 1/3 of market share can and often does completely tank companies.

"Hammered" is a pretty apt description. The fact that they've survived this long is testament in part, to the management that we all enjoy deriding from time to time, but it also says something about the import of those companies in that the .gov and banking industries have taken it upon themselves to prop the companies up more times than is easily justifiable.

Sorry bud. none of them lost 1/3rd of the market share. The big 3 aren't a single company....they're actually 3 competing companies. lol

[wmhjr]

If you can find a single VANOS bmw over 10 years old that hasn't had, or shows signs of a VANOS fault, I'll fly to the US and hand you a cheque for $10.

And right there is an example of how you let yourself get in trouble.

Buy the plane ticket and let me know when you'll be here. I can give you more examples than you can POSSIBLY shake a stick at. That is perhaps the most unsubstantiated and emotionally based statement I've seen.

I'm waiting for your dates so you can hand me the check. Sorry, but you really screwed the pooch on that one. Tell you what? When you get here I'll let you follow me in your rental car to a handful of examples of 10 yr old BMWs with VANOS that have never, ever, ever, ever had a single fault. As expected, your statement is not based on fact. Yeah, all those S52 and S54 engines were junk. They were EXACTLY like the Caddy 4-6-8. Rigggghhhhhtttttt....... Those M-Coupes that race here with S52 and S54 motors which were last built 10 years ago? Pure junk. Yup. BTW, the "number of times it was dropped from the spec sheet? Are you on crack? Seriously? What mind altering substances are involved here? VANOS has been (and is) a staple of BMW from 1992 to present. We're going on 20 years of VANOD or DOUBLE VANOS. And sorry, it (like so many other things) was really a performance enhancer at heart which waterfalled down. Here's a question - in what car did DOUBLE VANOS first appear? Was it an econobox? Hint. I owned one.

Like I said, make your flight reservations.

[wmhjr]

It's a truck for christsakes, not a 120k touring car. I have owned 10 Superduty Fords since 1997 and I think the interiors are great for a truck.
I also thinks anybody who pays a premium for a "King Ranch" package is a dolt, unless they happen to own the King Ranch.

So you're saying that musclecarjohn is a dolt? Nice. And you're saying that even if Ford offers a premium product and a customer pays that premium, they don't deserve to get what they're paying for? Because you think it's a "truck for christsakes"?

Hmmmm.... Don't get me wrong. I haven't owned a Ford truck in years. The interior of my '04 Dodge is craplastic. I really don't care. I bought it for the Cummins and the 6spd - used. But if it were my daily driver and I bought it new, I'd care.

[Pagani]

Clarkson schould not be taken serious

[Damn True]

Sorry bud. none of them lost 1/3rd of the market share. The big 3 aren't a single company....they're actually 3 competing companies. lol


Seriously?

Do you think I don't know that?

User CP ---> Ignore

I don't suffer fools........period.

You are now completely irrelevant. Run along. The adults are having a discussion....


To continue the discussion.

AMERICAN

GM

Maximum 1960's: 1962 (50.7%)
Minimum 1960's: 1961 (45.7%)

Maximum 1970's: 1976 (46.5%)
Minimum 1970's: 1970 (38.9%)

Maximum 1980's: 1980 (44.2%)
Minimum 1980's: 1989 (34.7%)

Maximum 1990's: 1990 (35.2%)
Minimum 1990's: 1998 (28.7%)

Maximum 2000's: 2002 (28.3%)
Minimum 2000's: 2009 (19.6%)

Ford

Maximum 1960's: 1961 (29.3%)
Minimum 1960's: 1967 (23.9%)

Maximum 1970's: 1970 (28.3%)
Minimum 1970's: 1979 (23.8%)

Maximum 1980's: 1989 (24.5%)
Minimum 1980's: 1981 (19.8%)

Maximum 1990's: 1995 (25.5%)
Minimum 1990's: 1991 (23.2%)

Maximum 2000's: 2000 (22.6%)
Minimum 2000's: 2008 (14.2%)

Chrysler

Maximum 1960's: 1968 (15.2%)
Minimum 1960's: 1962 (9.6%)

Maximum 1970's: 1970 (14.9%)
Minimum 1970's: 1979 (11.1%)

Maximum 1980's: 1988 (14.0%)
Minimum 1980's: 1980 (9.1%)

Maximum 1990's: 1996 (15.9%)
Minimum 1990's: 1991 (12.0%)

Maximum 2000's: 2000 (14.2%)
Minimum 2000's: 2009 (8.8%)

JAPANESE

Toyota

Maximum 1960's: 1969 (1.1%)
Minimum 1960's: 1965 (0.1%)

Maximum 1970's: 1970 (2.0%)
Minimum 1970's: 1979 (4.5%)

Maximum 1980's: 1981 (6.6%)
Minimum 1980's: 1984 (5.7%)

Maximum 1990's: 1998 (8.5%)
Minimum 1990's: 1994 (7.1%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (16.7%)
Minimum 2000's: 2000 (9.1%)

Honda

Maximum 1970's: 1979 (2.5%)
Minimum 1970's: 1970 (0.0%)

Maximum 1980's: 1989 (5.3%)
Minimum 1980's: 1983 (3.3%)

Maximum 1990's: 1991 (6.4%)
Minimum 1990's: 1993 (5.1%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (10.9%)
Minimum 2000's: 2000 (6.5%)

Nissan

Maximum 1960's: 1969 (0.8%)
Minimum 1960's: 1965 (0.2%)

Maximum 1970's: 1979 (4.1%)
Minimum 1970's: 1970 (1.5%)

Maximum 1980's: 1980/1982 (5.5%)
Minimum 1980's: 1988 (4.1%)

Maximum 1990's: 1995 (5.1%)
Minimum 1990's: 1998/1999 (3.9%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (7.3%)
Minimum 2000's: 2001 (4.0%)

Mitsubishi

Maximum 1980's: 1989 (1.0%)
Minimum 1980's: 1982 (0.1%)

Maximum 1990's: 1991 (1.5%)
Minimum 1990's: 1998 (1.2%)

Maximum 2000's: 2002 (2.0%)
Minimum 2000's: 2009 (0.5%)

Subaru

Maximum 1970's: 1979 (0.9%)
Minimum 1970's: 1970 (0.1%)

Maximum 1980's: 1982 (1.4%)
Minimum 1980's: 1989 (0.9%)

Maximum 1990's: 1998 (0.9%)
Minimum 1990's: 1994 (0.7%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (2.0%)
Minimum 2000's: 2000 (1.0%)

KOREAN

Hyundai

Maximum 1980's: 1987 (1.7%)
Minimum 1980's: 1986 (1.0%)

Maximum 1990's: 1990 (1.0%)
Minimum 1990's: 1998 (0.6%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (4.1%)
Minimum 2000's: 2000 (1.4%)

Kia

Maximum 1990's: 1999 (0.8%)
Minimum 1990's: 1994 (0.1%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (2.8%)
Minimum 2000's: 2000 (0.9%)

GERMAN

Volkswagen

Maximum 1960's: 1968 (5.0%)
Minimum 1960's: 1962 (2.7%)

Maximum 1970's: 1970 (5.6%)
Minimum 1970's: 1976 (1.8%)

Maximum 1980's: 1981 (3.1%)
Minimum 1980's: 1989 (1.0%)

Maximum 1990's: 1999 (2.2%)
Minimum 1990's: 1993 (0.4%)

Maximum 2000's: 2009 (2.8%)
Minimum 2000's: 2005 (1.8%)

Read more: http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8087824/the-general-forum/maximum-and-minimum-market-share-by-major-automake/index.html#ixzz0uDEEeISf

[79PonchoUK]

And right there is an example of how you let yourself get in trouble.

Buy the plane ticket and let me know when you'll be here. I can give you more examples than you can POSSIBLY shake a stick at. That is perhaps the most unsubstantiated and emotionally based statement I've seen.

I'm waiting for your dates so you can hand me the check. Sorry, but you really screwed the pooch on that one. Tell you what? When you get here I'll let you follow me in your rental car to a handful of examples of 10 yr old BMWs with VANOS that have never, ever, ever, ever had a single fault. As expected, your statement is not based on fact. Yeah, all those S52 and S54 engines were junk. They were EXACTLY like the Caddy 4-6-8. Rigggghhhhhtttttt....... Those M-Coupes that race here with S52 and S54 motors which were last built 10 years ago? Pure junk. Yup. BTW, the "number of times it was dropped from the spec sheet? Are you on crack? Seriously? What mind altering substances are involved here? VANOS has been (and is) a staple of BMW from 1992 to present. We're going on 20 years of VANOD or DOUBLE VANOS. And sorry, it (like so many other things) was really a performance enhancer at heart which waterfalled down. Here's a question - in what car did DOUBLE VANOS first appear? Was it an econobox? Hint. I owned one.

Like I said, make your flight reservations.

Are you on crack? You're paranoid as **** about what I say. I didn't say any of the engines were junk, did I? Some BMW engines are outstanding. Now you're lowering yourself to changing what people say. Does that sounds familiar?
I spent half of last week drewling over their legendary straight 6 sat in the back of 3-4 BMW M1s. Awesome.
I happen to love my mates e28 M5. Great car. I'm not a 'fanboy', good stuff deserves merit.



You're right, VANOS is perfect. It never failed. It never had any teething trouble and BMW never had thousands upon thousands of warranty claims over it. If you google VANOS, it doesn't fill the screen with VANOS faults and remedies....it just says how good VANOS really is. There's even a link to a website about how VANOS beat chuck norris. It really was that robust. (NOTE: to avoid litigation, there was in fact no website mentioning chuck norris, I used that for comedic/sensationalist reasons)

Every BMW enthusiast knows early VANOS wasn't reliable. Except you.

...and this needs spelling out for you it seems.....If BMW were looking for a performance increase, they'd just use a bigger engine, cheaper and more reliable with negligable weight gain. No, like most manufacturers they wanted to use a smaller engine to make it seem more efficient....that's what all performance enhancing devices on smaller engines are...they're not performance enhancing, they're effectively efficiency enhancing by replacing the performance giving displacement.


I'll hold back on my sensationalist statements for my own sanity from now on. You seem like the kind of person who'd take me to court for not actually flying over.


I'll happily concede one here.....I was on crack about it being dropped...I must have been living off the change to single VANOS for some of the M models over here. For that error, I apologise. The rest of my points still stand strong though.

VANOS, as a new technology designed with efficiency in mind, had problems when launched. Big problems. Problems that led to rough running and rattling engines on a substantial number of vehicles.

Cadillac 4-6-8, as a new technology designed with efficiency in mind, had problems when launched. Big problems. Problems that led to rough running on a substantial number of vehicles.


How untrue, and how different are those statements?

The fact that BMW stuck with theirs to eventually make it a success has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they both came unstuck trying to use new technology and that you only pick up on the GM fault, not the BMW one.

[79PonchoUK]

Seriously?

Do you think I don't know that?

User CP ---> Ignore

I don't suffer fools........period.

You are now completely irrelevant. Run along. The adults are having a discussion....



Adults? you're not acting very mature. Is WMHJR your friend? Is that why? I hope this place isn't cliquey.
I don't have anything against WMHJR, for the most part it's just a debate. If someone is wrong, it doesn't make them a fool. I don't think anyone in this topic is a fool....all seem pretty intelligent.

I think you know exactly what your statement looked like it was implying. I suppose I shouldn't make assumptions in the future.
There's no need for you to be a **** about it though.

Fact remains, in 91, the big 3 hadn't lost a third of their market share. If they had, plenty of companies have swallowed up such drops in less time than 20/30 years. lol. Most manufacturers have just had to deal with a 50%+ drop in sales in the space of a couple of years.

I suppose the problem comes back to unions making downsizing impossible....a problem their competitors never

[79PonchoUK]

So you're saying that musclecarjohn is a dolt? Nice. And you're saying that even if Ford offers a premium product and a customer pays that premium, they don't deserve to get what they're paying for? Because you think it's a "truck for christsakes"?

Hmmmm.... Don't get me wrong. I haven't owned a Ford truck in years. The interior of my '04 Dodge is craplastic. I really don't care. I bought it for the Cummins and the 6spd - used. But if it were my daily driver and I bought it new, I'd care.

WTF is a dolt? lol

[Rhino]

I revisit the thread and notice one post referencing Jeremy Clarkson on this entire page. Maybe this thread has outlived it's usefulness?

[wmhjr]

Now you're lowering yourself to changing what people say.

No I'm not. You said


If you can find a single VANOS bmw over 10 years old that hasn't had, or shows signs of a VANOS fault, I'll fly to the US and hand you a cheque for $10.

Your exact words. Now man up, buy the plane ticket, and hand me the check. I never said VANOS was perfect. I can't remember the last man made object that was perfect. But you made the above statement which is complete BS and now you need to back it up. Sorry. It's the down side of making BS statements.


Every BMW enthusiast knows early VANOS wasn't reliable. Except you.

And in the words of the Gipper, there you go again.

[Bow Tie 67]

Way to much time on our hands?

More wrenching and less bickering.