Can a 65 ot 67 A-body handle better than a gen III IROC Z?

[rockytopper]

I am asking because I am about to upgrade mine. I am only using the iroc z as an example because I use to own a new one in 1985 and it is the only real modern handling sports car I have ever owned. I have driven newer vets & camaro's etc but they weren't mine so I never pushed them to the edge. I have no idea how they really respond. I could put the IROC Z in a S turn and throw it side ways in a 4 wheel skid and then turn the wheel in the opposite direction and come around the corner in an opposite skid and then just hit the wheel a touch and put the car in a straight line exiting the turn. I think they call that drifting these days. The IROC felt like a slot car. It had little or no body roll. I believe it had .92 g#'s in stock trim. For reference this is the car I am about to upgrade. It has a 2002 ls1 and 4l60 trans drive train.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/DSC08801-1.jpg

Anyone who has upgraded their A-bodies to pro-touring levels please respond. I have already pm'd 2 of you that have a PT cutlass. I have decided to go with 17X8 on all 4 corners with 255/50zr17 rear and 255/45/zr17 fronts.

Thanks in advance
Rocky

[MrQuick]

one of the godfather's of pro touring, Jeff Smith's 65 Chevelle fits the bill.


Vince

[Lowend]

The short answer is "Yes" - it's just a matter of spending enough money in the right places

Start Saving
http://www.scandc.com/suspensions.htm#streetcompafx

[novaderrik]

you've already got the IROC wheels, so that's a start.

[PhillipM]

Honestly I too have owned the IROC series cars and I would say that our Olds handles just as well with the Air Ride Street Challenge kit on there.

[rockytopper]

Honestly I too have owned the IROC series cars and I would say that our Olds handles just as well with the Air Ride Street Challenge kit on there.

Thanks Phillip, the more I keep hearing this the more stoked I am getting. I put the icing on the cake this morning. I said screw a budget just send all of it, I want all of it, yea ok that too if you thank I need it.

[Bill Howell]

one of the godfather's of pro touring, Scott Smith's 65 Chevelle fits the bill.


Vince

Scott Smith? You mean JEFF Smith?

[Gitter Dun]

Pretty sure you mean Jeff Smith, and yes, that thing handles very well. He was only .300 of a second behind me at 341. The fact that he has skills doesn't hurt either.

[frankenstang]

Jeff Schwartz has a chassis that will out-handle just about anything. Cars with his stuff have won the Car Craft RSE 2 years in a row.

He's a sponsor here too.

www.gmachinechassis.com

[MrQuick]

Scott Smith? You mean JEFF Smith?
your right, where the hell did I get Scott from?


vince

[zbugger]

Scott Smith? You mean JEFF Smith?
Is it really Jeff? Or is that just what he goes by?

[zbugger]

your right, where the hell did I get Scott from?


vince
All that dust you've been inhaling lately.

[MrQuick]

or just lack of sleep...I need an editor

[CreepinDeth]

Stock, no chance in hell.

Like Lowend said though, spend enough money on something it can make worlds of difference.

[tommycomfort]

I've got to say that I am blown away at how well our 66 handles. Granted, it has been 25 years since I drove an IROC, but I think with all the upgrades, the A-body handles better. The only thing holding the 66 back now is the driver... :hammer:

[rockytopper]

Thanks for all of the replys. Not to hurt anyone feelings. The 65 chevys don't count in this conversation. They are a totally diffferent car than the 66 & 67 chevelle. I only mentioned 65 because the olds,gto's,buicks, etc were using the bigger chassis earlier even in 64 chevys didn't start until 66.

[nekkidhillbilly]

actually the velles frames are still shorter than the other a bodies even in 66-67

[rockytopper]

I have answered my own question. the answer is YES it handles better. I went around a tight curve last weekend not thinking and put my 89 year old mother in-law in the floor board between the buckets. Her seat belt was not tight and she was not holding on. My boss in the back seat was not smiling. I was grinning ear to ear and so was my mother in-law..... It is unreal how this mid 60's car handles now.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/DSC09377-1.jpg

[mc84_zz4]

Bolt ons are great, if you have deeper pockets, the sky is the limit...
The guys from RS Performance also have pushed the performance threshold.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
http://www.roadstershop.com/products/1964-1972-chevelle-chassis

Here's a great article on their '66
http://www.superchevy.com/features/chevellemontecarlo/sucp_0712_1966_chevy_chevelle/index.html
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/sucp_0712_05_z1966_chevy_chevelledriver_-1.jpg

[wmhjr]

Thanks for all of the replys. Not to hurt anyone feelings. The 65 chevys don't count in this conversation. They are a totally diffferent car than the 66 & 67 chevelle. I only mentioned 65 because the olds,gto's,buicks, etc were using the bigger chassis earlier even in 64 chevys didn't start until 66.

BTW, since this thread got updated. The differences between '64-'67 GM A-body cars in terms of chassis are so small as to be not worth mentioning when it comes to handling potential. The frames are identical with the exception of a little bit of extension at the back of some of the A-body cars compared to the chevelle. However, wheelbase is exactly the same, and the little bit of extra length on the back end may well be an improvement as it allows for better weight distribution. You can take a 64 chevelle frame, and with the exception of not being quite long enough in the back (where there is no structural effect nor any real weight) a '67 GTO body will bolt right on. Or, take a '67 GTO frame, cut 4" off the back (behind the rear wheels) and it's the same length as a GTO. The position of the body mounts are different, but that's about it. That's also why the Schwartz chassis will go under them all, right?

I suppose from a purely theoretical perspective, the mass of the extra sheet metal toward the rear of the car will have an impact, but in general it's so small as to be negligable. In terms of chevelle vs chevelle, non-existant. BTW, using digital race scales, I validated that my GTO (after the build was complete) is almost exactly 50/50 weight distribution.

[sixty5hellvell]

Its not so much as can the A body outperform the 3rd gen F body its that with the A body you have style and no smog laws, not so with the F body and unibody cars suck, ya I said it, take one look at my frame and tell me that a 3rd gen F body is a better platform.

[MonzaRacer]

Heck I have an article on Ridetech 66(?) Chevelle they hopped in, drove to Cali for a spin and stopped at Bonneville, well somewhere with salt and lots of space to open her up and then drove back home and it was best looking in my book and the best bang for the buck.
HEHE

[bret]

We've done some work with Chevelles...

http://www.ridetech.com/garage/1966-chevelle/

Here is what we use: http://www.ridetech.com/store/suspension-systems/vehicle-packages/1964-1967-gm-a-body-level-3.html

Check out the results from the various track day events this year...Motorstate, Face Off, Midwest Musclecar, Run Through the Hills, etc. Keep in mind this is a 369RWHP car with an automatic [although we recently upgraded to a new GM E Rod LS3].

It runs well.
We will be at the Ft. Worth Goodguys show new week. Come out and take a ride!

[tommycomfort]

We've done some work with Chevelles...

Wow, that might be the understatement of the year! Watching the Ridetech Chevelle is awesome. I spent a little time yesterday installing my new Ridetech front swaybar and it is well engineered piece of equipment!
Tom

[rockytopper]

We've done some work with Chevelles...

http://www.ridetech.com/garage/1966-chevelle/

Here is what we use: http://www.ridetech.com/store/suspension-systems/vehicle-packages/1964-1967-gm-a-body-level-3.html

Check out the results from the various track day events this year...Motorstate, Face Off, Midwest Musclecar, Run Through the Hills, etc. Keep in mind this is a 369RWHP car with an automatic [although we recently upgraded to a new GM E Rod LS3].

It runs well.
We will be at the Ft. Worth Goodguys show new week. Come out and take a ride!

I'll take you up on that. The event is in my back yard. I plan to try the autocross for the first time ever in any car. I'll get to see how well the cutlass really handles compared to you pro guys.

[david068513]

I own two third gens and they are some of the best handling cars in the world with minor mods. I love mine.

[H2Ogbodies]

Hmmm...I wonder if my gbodies handle so well is because they have a lot of 3rd gen parts on 'em....lol.
Let's see, offhand, 1LE front brakes, quick ratio gearbox, 36mm front anti-roll bar, etc. Yep, 3rd gens help gbodies handle too! Heck, even the 3rd gen headlight buckets fit the SS Montes with minor trimming....oops, cat's outa the bag now! lol

[a73formula]

All it takes is money, that being said the f-body platform is set better for handling right out of the box which means your already ahead of the game. So it just depends on how much money you have though you'll never be able to make up for the aerodynamics of the f-body. Just my .02 and I have a 65 malibu thats modded.

[shortrack]

All it takes is money, that being said the f-body platform is set better for handling right out of the box which means your already ahead of the game. So it just depends on how much money you have though you'll never be able to make up for the aerodynamics of the f-body.

right on the money.....

[rockytopper]

The intent of my post was not to get into a debate over which is better or get into some long drawn out technical lesson. I just wanted to get a response out of those A-body guys who had upgraded their suspensions in anticipation of getting mine done. As originally pointed out I once owned a 1985 gen III IROC when they came out new and was only using it as a comparison. I loved mine then and still do love them. The look of the TPI engine is still one of my favorites. They were the first real handling car ever produced out of GM besides the vet which released in 1984 to my knowledge. The first V rated tires etc.... All I know is I am very very pleased with how my car drives and handles now. The components I purchased (so called bolt ons) do exactly as advertised. I can't honestly say my car handles better than a gen III IROC I haven't been in one in years but I can say my car handles night and day compared to what it had originally.

[jeff s]

Yes, A bodies can be competetive with later model stuff.
Our Tempest won the autocross on Hot Rod Power Tour against 168 other cars including many late model cars. Zo6, Ford GT, RX8, Porsches, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, gens, 4th gens. Jeff Smith of Car Craft owns one of our chassis. Chris Jacobs has won 2 Goodguys events this year with his Chevelle and has been in the hunt to win at other events as well. We recorded 1.08 g's on his car in testing.

[Derek69SS]

Locally, I compete in SCCA C-Prepared against modded 3rd Gen IROCs. Our lap times are very similar... all of us are overweight and underpowered for the class.

[sixty5hellvell]

All it takes is money, that being said the f-body platform is set better for handling right out of the box which means your already ahead of the game. So it just depends on how much money you have though you'll never be able to make up for the aerodynamics of the f-body. Just my .02 and I have a 65 malibu thats modded.
That sounds like a challenge, here is my begining attempt at beating the f body areodynamics. Air dam fully blocks the grill, rear mounted radiator.

[Blitz]

Anyone have snapshots of Jeff Smith's Chevelle? I'm unfamiliar with it. If it's an issue for the OP, I can be PM'd.

[sixty5hellvell]

I think he is part of car craft magazine if I am not mistaken.

[a73formula]

Having had and still have a lot of f-bodies and have a 65 malibu with mods(lots more this winter) I'm still gonna have to go with the f-body in the aero dept. I have the full sc&c kit basically on my malibu and its handles awesome so I will agree on the original question that it is possible. I'm hoping to get it out on the autox course next spring.

[rockytopper]

We've done some work with Chevelles...

http://www.ridetech.com/garage/1966-chevelle/

Here is what we use: http://www.ridetech.com/store/suspension-systems/vehicle-packages/1964-1967-gm-a-body-level-3.html

Check out the results from the various track day events this year...Motorstate, Face Off, Midwest Musclecar, Run Through the Hills, etc. Keep in mind this is a 369RWHP car with an automatic [although we recently upgraded to a new GM E Rod LS3].

It runs well.
We will be at the Ft. Worth Goodguys show new week. Come out and take a ride!

Yea it runs well indeed. Bret had me pend to my seat the entire ride. What a first time experence in a real pro-touring car with a real pro-touring driver. It was my first ever autocross ride as well. I'm hooked. I drove my cutlass thru the course latter on and man how much fun that was. I'm addicted now. Thanks Bret great time in Texas this past weekend. The cutlass got it's first dent in the rear quarter. Guess I should have got the beer chest and the lawn chairs out of the trunk first. :)

[switchblade327]

I have answered my own question. the answer is YES it handles better. I went around a tight curve last weekend not thinking and put my 89 year old mother in-law in the floor board between the buckets. Her seat belt was not tight and she was not holding on. My boss in the back seat was not smiling. I was grinning ear to ear and so was my mother in-law..... It is unreal how this mid 60's car handles now.

I combed over the rest of the thread but found no mention of *which* solution you went with to get these
results! Obviously, this thread shows there are a lot of good options but I'm curious which one you went with.

[robbie9999]

Rocky Topper - what mods did you do to your car for it to handle so much better ? I am currently building mine up with all new components ? did you do a full frame from schwartz ? or bolt ons ?

Rob

[rockytopper]

I went with the SC&C entry level package seen here http://scandc.com/new/node/735
with the lower arm upgrade. It fit my goals and budget. I was going for more but after discussing my goals and planned use for my car Marcus convenced me that this is all I needed. As previously stated very happy with results and the stance ain't bad either.
Before
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/DSC09058-1.jpg
After
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/DSC09377-1.jpg