1969 Camaro - Blank Slate - Wanna Help?

[sykox]

Evening Gents,

First off I really like the site here, I just spent a few hours reading back through all the suspension pages and my brain is fit to bust now. Truth be told I am somewhat confused though, I guess I am too new at this to understand some of the acronyms being used and the same question tends to get different answers. I know, everyone has a difference of opinion which causes that disconnect so I figured I'd ask my own questions and get my own answers.

So here goes. I just bought a 1969 Camaro, which has been my dream car since I was 9 - I'm 31 now. The body is decent, no powertrain at all, I suspect it was originally a 6cyl or small V8 car and someone switched the trim tag, the rear axle is a 10 bolt, it is mono-leaf, and I am about to rip it apart and start learning how to put it back together. I have a fairly nice 427 sitting in the corner which will probably be backed by a T56 but that is WAY dow the road for now. Seeing as I am about to take it down to the frame I would like to bring it back up a bit nicer than original. I like the idea of pro-touring but I will never road race this thing. I want a streetable, well-handling, quick, good looking car. If I'm on a back country road and take a curve with a little speed I don't want it running away from me. I have estimated 3-4 years for the restoration to where I want it but suspension is first on the list. OK, that being said I would also say I am not a Rockerfeller or a Trump. Budget does come into play during this build BUT I will save up in order to get the performance I am looking for. I really want to do it right the first time.

Well that is my story. Any recommendations on front and rear suspension? Also, and this is probably the wrong forum for this, do I keep the 10 bolt or start looking for something that will stand up to the 427 a bit better?


Thanks guys,

Ron

[boodlefoof]

Hi Ron,

I'm in somewhat of the same boat as you are, except that my current project is a Datsun 240Z.

I've been researching different suspension designs trying to determine what to do with this little car. I'm starting with a blank slate, and hope to design the best system I can and then build it all myself.

I suppose the first question is... how exotic do you want to get? The stock style suspension can be made to handle pretty well. Stiffer springs, better shocks, subframe connectors, sway bar, etc... will make a world of difference over the factory handling.

Keeping the stock style suspension and upgrading it is probably the least expensive option unless you plan on designing and building your own suspension from scratch (assuming you already have the tools).

Another option is to replace the stock style suspension with an aftermarket kit suspension. There are several companies that make complete front subframes for first gen Camaros... for example, www.waynedue.com sells one such frame that utilizes Corvette pieces and coil over springs. As for the rear, there are also a few kits which can change your leaf spring suspension to truck arms, or a four link of some sort. Also, you may have noticed the thread in this forum about a new 3 link kit in the works. This option will allow big improvements, but will cost a bit.

The final option is to design your own suspension. Basically, make your own version of one of the kits above... This can be done fairly inexpensively, but it requires a lot more planning and work to do. For my project, I'm planning on an unequal length A-arm front suspension with coil over shocks. For my rear suspension, the 3 link looks tempting and is very popular for a fun corner-turner. I'm debating between that and a Satchell link, which is a type of 4 link.

Keep asking questions and you'll figure out what you want to do and what will fit your budget. Good luck!

:cheers:

[Tom Welch]

I recommend contacting Guldstrand Motorsports. Speak to Bobby. He set me up with good products at a fair price and a bunch of advise that was worth its weight in fast curves. I have a budget that is tighter than ****'s hat band and I have been satisfied with my progress so far. Also read Dave Pozzi's suspension info in the tech section of this site. Excellent information.

[baz67]

Do not discount a modified stock sub-frame and leafs. By using both you can keep the budget somewhat sane a get a great handling car to boot. boodlefoof gives some good advice. Keep asking us and, more importanly, yourself, what are the options and direction you want to go.

[TitoJones]

I used this in the past with excellent results. I got it almost 4 years ago this month, from a former Guldstrand employee. It's a copy and paste:

1012 Upper control arm bushings (Global West)
1013 Lower control arm bushings (Global West)
702 Offset shafts (Global West)
Adj-2 Tie rod sleeves (Global West)
801 Subframe bushings (-1/2") (Global West)
900 Subframe connectors (Global West)
103-sh Rear shackel kit (Global West)
TOM1 Custom rear spring (E+C Spring)
6041 Front spring -2.25/-2.5 Coils (MOOG)
? Upper Ball Joint (MOOG)
? Lower Ball Joint (MOOG)
? Inner Tie Rod (MOOG)
? Outer Tie Rod (MOOG)
? Pitman Arm (MOOG)
? Idler Arm (MOOG)
? Drag Link (good used, hard to find new)

3/4 to 15/16 Sway Bar -Custom made- (Hellwig)

Bilstein Shocks -Custom Valaved- (Bilstein)

Steering Box 12:1 / 35lb valve (LEE)
Steering Pump Alloy Sagnaw (CV Products)
Rag Joint Poly u-thane (LEE)

Rear End 3.42 ratio (US GEAR)
Limited Slip Eaton 12b / 3s (Eaton)

Front brakes 13" PBR 'track' (Baer)
Rear brakes 12" PBR 'track' (Baer)

Guldstrand Control arm modification with stock upper
and lower control arms (I boxed the lowers on my 67)

I am going to be installing the new Global West upper
control arms.....they add a whole bunch of caster, so we will soon see how
the GRA modification and GW arms work together.

Sway bar- I have Scott himself bend the bars I need. I
run a 3/4" on my 67'. I also have 13/16 and 15/16 bars
and really like the 3/4" best.

Shocks are custom valved and need a special part
number to order with the required valving. Depending
on chassis set-up and engine mods, will determine
valving to be used.

The above MOOG part numbers I havent with me but they
are directly out of the MOOG catalog.

The front spring out of the box will need an initial
cut of 2 1/4 coils. I then would drive them for a
couple of weeks to 'settle' them and THEN, trim to
ride height. This is a little more time consuming, but
the end product is on the money.

The rear springs are made by a friend of mine, I can
give you the spring on paper or help you out by having
him wittle up a set or two. Ride height must be noted
before build!!!!! So that it can be built into the
spring as much as possible....will still need the use
of 1" rear lowering blocks, available through
Guldstrand. Also need 1/2" 'U' bolts for the
differential to spring. The above setup will handle very well for a street driven car, and it is not much more than $3500 total.

Tyler

[vanzuuk1]

Tito What is the target for that setup,street or track? Is it a good handling sunday driver or too rough riding for casual cruising? It sounds like a good setup , give us some driving impressions.

[sykox]

WOW! Now this is an active board with interesting people. Thanks so much for the replys guys, I now have some food for thought.


I'll start at the top and work my way down. Boodlefoof, there seems to be many different options here to consider before even starting to decide on parts. :) As far as how exotic I want, not very. I want good street manners and a decent ride. This will above all be a pleasure cruiser with the ocassional corner carving thrown in. I could probably aquire the tools to build a suspension but I can guarantee I can't gain that kind of skill in the time frame I'm looking at. I will probably go upgrade the stock suspension as it seems to be the option that will get me to my personal goals, unless I run across a really sweet deal out there on a bolt in!

Tom, I will do that. Gulstrand is a name that keeps popping up as is Dave Pozzi's. I have read, I think, most of Dave's stuff but with my level of understanding of suspensions it gets confusing some times. I guess I need to get a suspension primer somewhere! :)

Baz67, that's kinda what I am thinking. The stock frame and springs, modified of course, will probably meet my needs nicely. And trust me on this, ya'll certainly haven't seen the last of me, or heard the last silly question I will eventually ask.

Tyler, wow man, thank for that post. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. As I am about to head out to work I will take the time this afternoon to dissect your post take in the info a bit better. Looks like you have a real nice setup and it is inline with my particular budget. I would like to know your driving impressions as well. Vanzuuk1 brings up a good point, is it a good cruiser or a hardcore jaw rattler. Oh yea Tyler, is this setup in a big block or small block car? I assume the spring rates will be a tad different for one or the other.


Thanks again for the info guys, I now have a starting point. If I can get over this dang cold then perhaps I can start doing something on it. (Wife won't let me near the garage right now! :0)

Lastly, nobody mentioned much about the rear end, Tyler mentioned he has a 3.42 rear with Eaton posi. Is that a good starting point for a 427/T56 combo in a 69? I also noted a rather heated conversation on here from some months ago on the benefits of posi vs. lockers. Any thoughts?

Oh I guess I have one more question, a friend who is helping me out said we will probably need to mini-tub the car to get a decent wheel under the back. He then mentioned the possibility of installing ladder bars. I don't know much about those except they keep popping up on pro-street sites. What do you think?

Thanks again,

Ron

[boodlefoof]

For a rear, your 10-bolt can handle a bit of power as long as you aren't dumping the clutch on that T56. I'd start with it and see how it does myself.

I have always used a posi carrier, so I can't really comment on which is better, posi or locker.

Mini-tubbing is an option if you want to fit some bigger rubber out back... but even without mini-tubbing you can probably squeeze about a 275 tire back there.

I'd personally not go with ladder bars. Not really made to hang corners.

[wally8]

sykox,

If you're going to mini tub and put 275's or bigger in back, don't put any money into that 10 bolt. You may as well start putting it towards a 9 inch. Then you'll have a rearend that will handle whatever you want and you get the flexibility of easy gear swaps down the road with lots of ratios available. You won't regret it, with a 10 bolt you will eventually.

With a T56 you can go with a pretty deep gear. 4:10 wouldn't be out of line and is used by a lot of F-body guys. I personally think 3:90's would be a good compromise.

Why cut springs when you can go with one of these and use easily found stockcar springs:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/asp/strBase_List./hilt./source.2191/base_no.91645551/str_base_no.3001000%2C3007100%2C5501285%2C582A200% 2C91025102%2C91025105%2C91045538%2C91045555%2C9104 5560%2C91045565%2C91089808%2C91645533%2C91645535%2 C91645550%2C91645551%2C91720243%2C/header_title.Race+Products%2DStandard+Coil+Spring+ Accessories/page_name.prod%5Flist%5Fdisplay.asp/search_type.L2%7E712/search_option./deptsearch./deptSearch_id.2/dept_id.L2%7E712/dept_id_p.2/dept_name./dept_name_p.Race+Products/ShowImages.yes/sq.0/cont.1/intPgNo.1/redirect./qx/product.htm

Notice there are two versions for height.

I'm sure someone can help you out with actual spring rates for your car.


Wally

[sykox]

Thanks for the comments guys. I think I'll start keeping an eye on the classified and see if a 9in comes up. Might as well feel comfortable with it right. I need to sit down and seriously consider if I want to tub it or not, seems like I may not need to. This weekend I'm gonna get into it good and proper and see whats salvagable in the back of the car. I'll keep ya'll posted.

[TitoJones]

The setup I mentioned is for a SBC, but we can still do the same thing fo a BBC, just increase the spring rates. It is not kidney jarring suspension either, the Del-al-lum bushings act more like a bearing than some solid item that would transfer road harshness right to your butt.
I loved the way it handled, and think it is one of the best ways to go for a strictly street driven vehicle. It is stable, predictable, and easy to drive.
The rear gear of a 3.42 is from a 4spd, but I had a T56 in my car at the time. I'd say a 3.73 would do just fine when the T56 gets in there.

Tyler

[chicane67]

Well, some things have changed since I wrote that a few years ago, but none-the-less..... it works the best for the least amount of money and/or modifications, hands down.

Ron~ If you would like to PM me, I will help with what I can. I will need to have some more information from you to possibly help you into the direction you would like to go...... and to also keep you on the inside track of changes with technology (which might change the original parts list above) and maybe even give you some insight for possible future modifications or ideas.

But to answer some other questions:

The 3.73, 3.90 or 4.10 ratio would be choice for that specific transmission.

No on ladder bars.

Dont need to mini tub, as you can fit a 275 in the rear without any problems.

12 bolt, go with an Eaton. 9" go with a Detroit locker.

[sykox]

Outstanding Gents, I never expected this much support. I'l pm you Chicane and get you the additional information. I think I'll start scouring the yards for 12 bolts or 9 in's. Whichever housing comes up in the lottery first will probably be my choice.

:)

[SatisTraction]

Try wiley deans. BTW i am from the jackson area. where are you?

[sykox]

Hey Chris, I'm in Olive Branch. I pm'd you a bit more info on that. What is wiley deans?

Ron

[SatisTraction]

its a junkyard in jackson. they have alot of old cars. no camaros

[Derek69SS]

My advice is to stay away from the 9". They are not as strong, and in stock form have much more resistance, and take about 12 more hp to turn than a 12 bolt (that's what I've been told anyway)

The camaro/nova 12-bolt housings are in the $1000-1200 range, it'd be cheaper to find a $100 '65-70 impala 12-bolt and weld on leaf spring perches and narrow it to whatever width you want. go with ford axle ends to eliminate the C-clips (only real downfall of the 12-bolt unless you want to swap gears a lot)

You'd be doing all the same work to the 9" anyways, so why not go with the stronger and cheaper option? :)

[sykox]

You make a good point Derek, thanks! I've been thinking along those line also, once I put gears in it they will probably stay unless they break. Another interesting point you brought up is different cars to pull from, I've noticed several 12 bolts on e-bay and in the papers that do not indicate what they came out of. Is a 12 bolt a 12 bolt? Can any 12 bolt be modified to work in my 1969 or do I need to be a bit pickier (is that a word?) in my search?

Thanks,

Ron

[Piet]

One suggestion..... buy this book.
How to Build & Modify GM Pro-Touring Street Machines
by Tony Huntimer

(Tony hangs out here as well)

You can buy it at:
http://www.racehome.com/protourbook.htm

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/05/sample1button-1.jpg (http://www.racehome.com/images/sample1.pdf)

Money well spent.

[sykox]

Thanks for that tip Piet, just ordered it.

[yody]

Tom, i like the part# of the rear leaf springs. Screw the 12 and 9 bolt, Use a 10 bolt out of a nova. The 8.5 10 bolt can be built for about a grand and be almost as strong as a built 12 bolt. 30 spline eaton posi, 30 spline moser axles and a good set of gears is all you need. I built mine just like that, had it powdercoated and used an aluminum cover all for $1400

[Derek69SS]

I've noticed several 12 bolts on e-bay and in the papers that do not indicate what they came out of. Is a 12 bolt a 12 bolt? Can any 12 bolt be modified to work in my 1969 or do I need to be a bit pickier (is that a word?) in my search?

12-bolt chevys are different than the corporate (B.O.P.) 12-bolts... not sure if any are better than the others, except that some oldsmobiles had 12-bolt covers with 10-bolt internals.

All 12-bolt chevys will have an upside-down "V" in the inspection cover for oil to run to the axle tubes. Corporates don't have that. This is an easy way to I.D. a chevy 12-bolt. Corporates do NOT have C-clips (that's a plus!)

Some chevy/GMC trucks had a "12-bolt" that is completely different as far as I know.

Camaro and Nova housings are worth $1000+

Chevelles have the C4L suspension with bushing ears on top of the pumpkin, which may or may not be a problem... 68-72s start at $300 and 65-67s go for $600

65-70 impalas (easiest to find in '69-70 impalas) have a 4-link PHB and would need to have the control arm brackets cut off, and weld on your leaf pads. They go for $50-100 around here.

Cody brings up a good point about the 8.5" 10-bolt (73 and later, and some late 72s) being almost as good. They're pretty cheap and easy to find, but I think the low-perf later ones have the 7.5" POS you'd want to stay away from.

[sykox]

Once again you guys provide excellent info, I think I am gonna bulk up on my identification skills and go hunting this weekend, see what we can find! Thanks gents.