Do younger urban musclecar people even exist?

[fantasygoat]

I'm in my mid-30's, work in the internet industry and I live right downtown in Canada's largest city, Toronto. I also spent 2+ years fixing up my '69 Torino and I drive it almost daily in the summer. Apparently, I'm some sort of weird anomaly because I don't know of even one other person like me within a 50 mile radius!

There are people who like musclecars, but they all live out in the suburbs - for a cruise night, I have a choice of several a week if I don't mind driving for an hour in rush hour traffic. Then, when I get there, everyone is usually about 25-30 years older than I am and seems to really like Elvis, and then they pack it in by 8pm. Definitely not my crowd in any way.

There are younger urban people who like cars, but they all drive BMWs and Hondas. I can appreciate them but it's not really my scene - no one really likes or knows anything about older cars.

Driving downtown, I might see an old car once every month in the summer. As far as the type of attention I get, it seems like the grubbier and more unpleasant the person is, the more they want to come over and tell you about your car. It's never hot chicks, it's always guys missing teeth!

The difficult part of all this is that I'd really like to interact with other people like me in person - bench racing, discussing parts, swapping tips, that sort of thing. I hear stories about people getting their friends to help them swap an engine and it boggles my mind because none of my local friends could change the oil, if they even owned a car.

Anyone else in a similar situation?

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

well dont feel bad.. im probably the only Camaro owner that still breakdances..


ahhaha

[WS6]

I'm not urban but I'm 30 and have been into muscle cars always.

I find urban areas in general to care more about style than substance. So whatever is "in" is what you find.

[dadto2jays]

I have had some sort of hot rod or bad ass truck since my teens I am now 41 and I find my self in a similar dilema not quite as bad because what I do find are succesful guys in my age group that buy these bad ass cars/trucks that someone else built since I build mine is kind of hard to shoot the **** as merely none of them knows squat about their ride but we do share the same love for these buckets.

[EBARTH55]

I Know what you are saying. I've been around and in this industry since i was a kid. I had the only fully customized vehicle in Highschool, built my first show truck at 16 then progressed into the collison and custom body shop business. That move has been very good to me, but not one single of my friends will get into this hobby. I am 29 and fortunent I have a nice Car collection started from custom trucks, street rods, corvette, mustang, firebird, and my custom buicks. I hang out with my buddies but they never stop by to drink a beer and mess around with the cars. I still love what I do and will never stop but I have made tons of new friends and Yes they are Older than me, just face it younger guys don't have the money to pay & play if you can't do it yourself. Its hard to get younger generation involved around here Northern Indiana, their all famers. Good Luck and make the best of it if we give up the industry dies.

[wmhjr]

You're right - but it's not just urban areas. It's in general. That's why companies like Summit are making more investment into the "younger" generations and focusing on imports. Had several conversations with some Summit guys (not sales people) a couple months ago concerning this. They were very direct in their comments about it.

Don't worry, though. If you hang in there you'll get old like me someday and will be hanging out with people your own age :)

[fantasygoat]

Amusingly I bumped into a guy in an El Camino this afternoon who told me about a "local" car show. Turns out it was once again the same old story - in the suburbs, with do-wop music and a sea of grey hair and boring stock cars or dragsters - not a one that could turn a corner worth a damn.

Why can't there be some younger pro-touring people within 50 miles?!

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

the most hilarious thing is that (at the cruise in) they always wear..

Jean shorts(sometimes stonewashed)
socks too tall for the shoes
dirty ass white tshirt
and if they have money then a clean ass white tshirt
and finally.. a huge damn gut!

ahhahahaa

[Bad94]

Theres a few of us running around. Im 25, building car for customers twice my age, and they want me to do it there way:enguard:, LOL.

[showa]

You guys kill me... LOL... When we get together once a month in Vegas, I'm the "old guy" (54)... All the others are at least 20 years younger (and alot better mechanics)....So you should move here...

[Kenova]

Well, let's see here. You live in Toronto, so that doesn't help. It's damn near impossible to get anywhere in that hell hole in a timely fashion. Also, as mentioned above, most people in the bigger cities are like sheep and just follow the trends instead of developing their own interests.
You are also working in an industry that probably pays somewhat better than jobs a lot of people your age have. I'm quite certain that my son (just a little younger than you) would be knee deep in the old iron if it weren't for things like student loans.
When it comes to the cruises, you have some valid points (especially about that damned do wop crap). They are however one of the very few places and occasions in our part of the world where you stand a chance of meeting someone with the same interests as yourself.
As for the chic thing, well the vast majority of them just see an old car and nothing scares them away like something they think screams "poverty".
If you are looking for someplace to enjoy your hobby with others, the only advice I can give you is "Get out of Millertown". My son likes the London/Kitchener/Waterloo area because of it's wider automotive appeal.

Ken

[T_Raven]

I'm 27 and feel the same about the car scene in general. Old cars are owned by old guys that talk about how great the "good ol' days" were and think everything should be stock and that the 327 was the greatest engine ever invented. Though I like imports I've always hated "ricers". One guy explained it to me one day. Younger guys usually appreciate muscle cars but consider them unaffordable. So they buy $5000 Civics and Neons and put all the "bling" from auto zone on them and think they have a nice car. Plus most younger guys can only afford one car so they need a cheap reliable car they can mod here and there. It's hard to afford a daily driver and a $10,000 pile of rust from the 60's that needs $5000 worth of sheet metal. Then you get into the pro touring scene and you're looking at big money to make an old car perform like a new one.

I don't know many people that are into cars in general. And most of the younger guys that are, are into BMWs and Benzes cause they want to impress women. Well they can keep those gold diggin hos and I'll keep my Firebirds lol.

[WS6]

The costs involved in having an old car are a concern for sure. Without modifications, these old cars ie 20 years and older are slow and do not handle compared to what's out there today. There is simply no comparison.

So you take that into consideration as well and you end up with the younger guys wanting performance they can live with and drive everyday. That pretty much limits you to a modern car only.

This could go on and to a deeper level. We could get into the thoughts and questions surrounding the modern generation's inability to seemingly do anything expect to purchase what they want. People today are so used to simply being able to walk into a store a buy what they want. There's very little make it your own or make it yourself compared to what our parents did. This can be good and bad. This conversation could get much mroe complicated and in depth too.

I think it's just a matter of the changing times for the most part. Good or bad it's changing. In 20 years, todays' BMW's and other sports cars will be the classic cars. Will people be showing them, driving them, passionate about them the way we are about our current "old cars"? Only time will tell.

Keep trying to find people with your same interests but don't discount the other guys who may have a modern car but are also into performance. They may be different but that can be a good thing and they may become the best people you'll ever meet if you give them a chance.

[LeighP]

I am one of those 'old guys" at a cruise night....I see plenty of guys in their late 20's with musclecars or cruisers.
But to tell you the truth, I know what you mean about the music thing...man, I hate going to a run and all they're playing is cheezy 50's music.....these are musclecars guys...late 60's early 70's....lets try some Led Zeplin orsomething a little more contemporary with the cars....lol.

[vintageracer]

Do younger urban musclecar people even exist?

That depends upon what you call a "musclecar"?

It's all changing now!

A turbocharged mid 90's Toyota Supra is the musclecar to many young guys. This car will do everything better than an old guys muscle car.

People are creatures (car guys) of habit and will continue to want what they dreamed about in their teens/high school. As people age and achieve a little success in life that allows them to have toys and they tend to gravitate to what was their dream in the teens/high school when it comes to old cars. An "old car" depends upon how "old" you are. It's changing now just as has changed over the years.

If we could watch a BJ auction on TV from 1990 what would you see? Full classics, European cars and a few Corvettes. A Musclecar? NO WAY! How do I know? I was there!

When the collector car market surges AGAIN it will not be old Musclecars leading the pack. You might just be surprised to see 3rd/4th gen Camaros, Fox body Mustangs and other late model cars and more importantly Japanese cars as the prized collectible. Guys who were in their teens in the late 80's early 90's generally did not dream about 69 Camaros. It was 5.0 Mustangs, later Camaro's, SS Monte Carlo's and then Japanese "Musclecars".

It's a naturaly progression. You might not like it but sometimes reality is not what "you" think it should be!

[Nomad_K]

You're not alone man, but I think there is hope.

EDIT - I went a bit off track into the general motor sport scene below. As for classic and muscle cars... with and open mind and a bit of time, it will work out. As people have pointed out, going fast in an older car takes more scratch than a modern ride. When money is tight, I'd rather see people having fun in something they can afford versus nothing at all.

Now, for my earlier tangent... The following are random musing from time spent in countries ranging from Australia and America to Thailand and Japan...

The economy has sucked 'it' out of quite a few people, and that has put a damper on the automotive and motorsports scene. I think the biggest decline I saw was in Japan. In 2003 in the middle of no where I saw tuned FD3 RX-7's, Supras, Sylines, 200 sx's, and yes, old school American muscle flying from here to there. Now... fewer young people are into cars in general there, regardless of the make. I haven't been back for awhile, but I think the automotive scene there will have to change to come back to life. Maybe that means more tuned bybrids or nano-cars. That doesn't mean the end of the world... electric motors can be tuned to have crazy torque and spin to otherworldly speeds. Small, lightweight cars are great fun on the track.

In the US, Australia, or Thailand, there are plenty of people who are only into one sort of car, some people who are only concerned about appearance, impressing girls, or on occasion, girls trying to impress boys. There are people like that in every hobby, sport, profession, etc.

On the bright side, there are people who are into fast cars, regardless of make. Capable off road vehicles, regardless of origin. Custom Harleys from Germany and tuned Ducatis reworked in Thailand. I do not run into these people that often, but I always enjoy the times that I do. And in between, I have found a few cool places to read and 'hang out' online. Pro-touring and a the odd model specific forum for performance goodness... IH8Mud and Expedition Portal for my off-road and overland needs, the Greenhulk for jet skis, etc.

I wish that I could hang out with people from all of these forums in person, near a racetrack, off the beach, over in Thailand or up in northern Queensland all the time. Of course, I would never get any work done, my girlfriend could get jealous, and with the lack of work, I might run out of money :doh: etc.

In the long run though, I think that on a global scale, we will be okay. There are plenty of great trails to ride, fun winding roads to drive, and great people to share those rides with.

[novaderrik]

the most hilarious thing is that (at the cruise in) they always wear..

Jean shorts(sometimes stonewashed)
socks too tall for the shoes
dirty ass white tshirt
and if they have money then a clean ass white tshirt
and finally.. a huge damn gut!

ahhahahaa

hey now.. that's not fair.
sometimes i wear blue t shirts.

[70stangvert]

I definitely know what you're talking about - the suburbs here still feel much more like the hotbeds of classic car culture, and the car shows are as everybody here is describing them, but there's more of a mixture in California that I've noticed.

Here, you have more young urban hipsters driving old Mustangs, Falcons, Darts, maybe a wagon, El Camino, Ranchero, or old pickup. Usually they choose the cheaper retro unrestored ones, for cost and cool factor. Lots of guys doing the urban "bling" thing to older Mustangs, Falcons, and some big boats like Impalas. Rollin' on dubs, etc.

There's not much "pro-touring", though, in the city. It's a shame - some kids spend as much on a luxury BMW or Lexus as they would doing a nice pro-touring build, but I guess they want to take out a loan and go buy sophistication at a dealership to impress the ladies. ;)

I do compare notes with a tuner guy at work, though. We've taken each other in rides in our cars, and we both came away with an appreciation for the other guy's work. Can't wait to show him how the car performs with the new 331. ;)

[65-Flat6]

There are a few of us, im 22, my current projects are a 1965 corvair 500 full resto mod street/race car, 1972 VW Baywindow bus (full restoration)almost done now. and i have an original 27 model t frame waiting for the t bucket treatment

[montessaj]

We are out here!. I'm 21, I have a small car club in my area and all the guys are in there 20's. I have an 82 Monte SS clone, we have a 69 Mach 1, 2 Grand Nationals (1 is PT), a 69 GTO, 78 Trans AM, 73 AMC Javelin, a couple of El Caminos, and a few Fox bodies. We are about the only group like us in the area of Ft. Hood but it works for us. Hang in there man, they aren't all they stereotypical car show geezers.

[wmhjr]

There's not much "pro-touring", though, in the city. It's a shame - some kids spend as much on a luxury BMW or Lexus as they would doing a nice pro-touring build, but I guess they want to take out a loan and go buy sophistication at a dealership to impress the ladies.

I think you're missing an important point. For most of us, our PT type cars are not daily drivers. That BMW, Lexus or whatever is as happy between red lights and in parking garages as it is on the open highway - with better fuel economy and reliability.

For lots of us, we HAD 1st gen camaros, GTOs, Darts, etc when we were in HS. Now we have them again - but we have more money and opportunity than we did then. When I was in and just out of HS, my dad would talk about the tri-fives, the Willys, '42 Fords, etc. A camaro or GTO was a "newer" car. Everything changes.

It's pretty simple. You generally have more resources as you get older.

[Mathius]

So you take that into consideration as well and you end up with the younger guys wanting performance they can live with and drive everyday. That pretty much limits you to a modern car only.


That's the key right there. They say the economy is getting better, but money for toys is still not there like it was 10 years ago and the price of gas whether justified or not has easily tripled in my lifetime alone. I drove my Malibu daily for something like 2-3 years and let me tell you it was rough on gas with that old carburetor and a 305. I went out and bought a pickup truck so I could have the luxury of towing (also geared towards the hobby car you speak of), and let me tell you, a few years later I'm now feeling the sting of THAT investment because even 17mpg mixed is hurting the wallet.

Not to mention the appeal of the tuner fits these "young kids" you speak of, because those mods they do to the imports are EASY. They don't have to know how to tighten down valves in sequence when installing a new cam, or pay 2 grand for a welder so they can cut and chop to their hearts content because that's not what the import scene is about. Even the ones that are done up with paint jobs and performance mods are usually a case where the kid just threw money at it. He didn't do the work himself.

Lastly as someone else brought up... at the risk of sounding prejudice (I'm not), you (the OP) DO live in Canada, and your lifestyle and city may or may not be a good grounds for comparison to the typical US city.

Mathius

[joemac]

I'm 26 and cost I would say is the most definite issue. Like stated above if you can only afford one car it has to stay in daily use instead of sitting under construction for months. And lets face it no one wants to drive a rusted out, junk drum brake, no a/c, no power steering hulk that is uncomfortable. Throw in tons of maintenance work and ancient technology it really makes best sense to find something more modern to daily drive. Of course there are exceptions.

I would recommend not discriminating between muscle cars/hotrods/imports/european. I myself am a diesel head but I respect and see the hobby as one contiguous group although there are some well defined segments. I can get along with the import guys just as well as the muscle car guys just because it's all the same in principal and I can respect their stuff. You're just going to have to start talking to all the gear heads no matter what segment they are in and you will find the muscle car guys I believe. Are there any motorsports events in your area? Dragstrips and such?

My little '93 ranger is a good example. It's definitely not a muscle car but I'm upgrading brakes bigger in the front and converting to discs in the rear. Adding a swaybar in the rear, better wheels tires, lowered, positive rear and hope to do a diesel swap and T56 sometime soon. It's just going to be a long timeline. So even though I am not technically a "muscle car guy" I enjoy hot rodding and am a gear head.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[anarchy99]

In Coronado, their are tons of old muscle cars that are also daily drivers. I daily drive my 69, another buddy daily drives his 70 chevelle. The others I see daily are an olds 442, 68 camaro, several old novas, and a green 63 ford falcon. Tons of old trucks also. I guess military guys like their muscle cars alot more.

[tazzz25906112]

Your right,,, the banking policies of Canadian banks and insurance issues make it very difficult for younger people to participate in the hobby...

Toronto is famously conservative and most of the cruises are exactly what you describe..... That said there is a merging of the Bike/ Hot Rod/rat ride/ tattoo element that is drawing a wide spectrum of people that includes young and old....

As an example I believe there will be a car show this wed night that will be small but a whole lot more up your alley across from the Sherway Gardens west of the 427 in the free standing food restaurants on the north side of the Queensway... They will be setting up out front with bikes and cars and I know I'll have a couple of my pro-touring rides there as well....

The show will be sponsored by Kreater Motorcycles I believe.... These guys build some of the highest quality show bike in in Canada in not North America and compete with the likes of the major US builders (and usually win)... They are a young crew and their customers are older like me,,, however you will see some very exotic cars and bikes (and the bar has a younger crowd that isn't interested in the do-wop scene)...

Follow these guys around the city and I'm sure your chances will greatly improve in finding the smaller more interesting type venues/ crowds/shows your looking for (or at least as close as it going to get in T.O.).....

[Pro Stock]

I'm in my mid-30's, work in the internet industry and I live right downtown in Canada's largest city, Toronto. I also spent 2+ years fixing up my '69 Torino and I drive it almost daily in the summer. Apparently, I'm some sort of weird anomaly because I don't know of even one other person like me within a 50 mile radius!

There are people who like musclecars, but they all live out in the suburbs - for a cruise night, I have a choice of several a week if I don't mind driving for an hour in rush hour traffic. Then, when I get there, everyone is usually about 25-30 years older than I am and seems to really like Elvis, and then they pack it in by 8pm. Definitely not my crowd in any way.

There are younger urban people who like cars, but they all drive BMWs and Hondas. I can appreciate them but it's not really my scene - no one really likes or knows anything about older cars.

Driving downtown, I might see an old car once every month in the summer. As far as the type of attention I get, it seems like the grubbier and more unpleasant the person is, the more they want to come over and tell you about your car. It's never hot chicks, it's always guys missing teeth!

The difficult part of all this is that I'd really like to interact with other people like me in person - bench racing, discussing parts, swapping tips, that sort of thing. I hear stories about people getting their friends to help them swap an engine and it boggles my mind because none of my local friends could change the oil, if they even owned a car.

Anyone else in a similar situation?
First of all are you in a situation that you could move to a different location ? If so the London/Kitchner area previously mentioned would probably have more of what you are looking for, that would put you close enough (and thankfully far enough) from Detroit for a couple of yearly cruise night trips (Including the Dream Cruise). I live in Mooresville, North Carolina and it seems to be different than other places that I have lived (Southern CA, Columbus, OH ect.) It seems that there is all sorts of stuff going on here that would satisfy any gearhead of any age, I know that moving is a big thing especially by yourself but give it some thought.

Another "old Fart" that HATES doowop, Dale

[Jarcaines]

Also, as mentioned above, most people in the bigger cities are like sheep and just follow the trends instead of developing their own interests.

As opposed to suburbs where they aren't sheep and set trends? Come on man, no need to generalize like that.

[Jarcaines]

Jeremy,
I am with you man. I am 31, and a graphic designer living near downtown Kansas City. When I first moved here from Washington my wife and I where living in a loft and I couldn't even bring the Camaro over here. When we finally bought a house, we got what we wanted, a small historic bungalow in an urban neighborhood. I now have a garage in my basement for the Camaro, but not exactly ideal for running the car, or working on it with anything that has any sort of fumes or fire hazzard.

I love city life, I love the culture, the art, the restaurants, the old architecture, to me it goes hand in hand with wanting to take an old vehicle (wether its a muscle car or not) and making something unique, and improved out of it. I wouldn't trade my location for ease of working on my car, or surrounding myself with people who's interests are just like mine.

One idea though, Toronto might be different, but in Kansas City, our urban art core is pretty accepting of the "rat rod" type custom car crowed, in fact many of them are involved in the local art scene, I have found that while my car isn't anything like that, there are many people who are interested in talking shop when it comes to hot rodding cars in any style.

Or you can just pack up, move to KC, and we can start the urban chapter of PT.com. ;-)

[joemac]

That's a good point that there may not be as many places for people to work on their junk in the cities as in suburban areas. I'm sure though if you lived there a while you could find places.

I really don't think it's a lack of young gear heads, you might just have to dig a little deeper. I don't know the demographics of the 5.0 mustang movement but I assure you there are bunches of young guys that are into the 5.0 mustang scene. Probably that many more in the fbody crowd.

[wmhjr]

In Coronado, their are tons of old muscle cars that are also daily drivers. I daily drive my 69, another buddy daily drives his 70 chevelle. The others I see daily are an olds 442, 68 camaro, several old novas, and a green 63 ford falcon. Tons of old trucks also. I guess military guys like their muscle cars alot more.

Coronado gets slightly different weather than Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc.

The reason some of us DON'T drive our "good" cars daily is because we like them so much. BTW, I'm a military guy.

I do think weather/climate has a lot to do with it.

[JohnUlaszek]

I live inside the beltway (DC), and almost never see anything that isn't fuel injected. My shop is is further south and the scene is quite a bit better yet very diverse.

I've been to London and Toronto tons of times, and the scene in London/Kitchner...et al is much better than Toronto. I think the problem with urban centers has much to do with garage space. I love living in close to the action, but it's cheaper for me to own a condo and rent garage space than it is to own a house with a garage where I want to live. Same deal with London, it's a heck of a lot cheaper to get a place with a garage than it would be in Toronto. The funny thing is that people with garages downtown aren't gearheads -- at least I haven't seen one yet.

[Mathius]

Coronado gets slightly different weather than Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc.

The reason some of us DON'T drive our "good" cars daily is because we like them so much. BTW, I'm a military guy.

I do think weather/climate has a lot to do with it.

Another good point. I live literally 2 blocks from Cleveland, OH (I'm in a suburb) and some years we're lucky to get 3 months of good weather. There's really no way I'd drive a finished musclecar/ptouring car, whatever all year round because the salt would destroy it in the winter.

Mathius

[79PonchoUK]

I'm in my mid-30's, work in the internet industry and I live right downtown in Canada's largest city, Toronto. I also spent 2+ years fixing up my '69 Torino and I drive it almost daily in the summer. Apparently, I'm some sort of weird anomaly because I don't know of even one other person like me within a 50 mile radius!

There are people who like musclecars, but they all live out in the suburbs - for a cruise night, I have a choice of several a week if I don't mind driving for an hour in rush hour traffic. Then, when I get there, everyone is usually about 25-30 years older than I am and seems to really like Elvis, and then they pack it in by 8pm. Definitely not my crowd in any way.

There are younger urban people who like cars, but they all drive BMWs and Hondas. I can appreciate them but it's not really my scene - no one really likes or knows anything about older cars.

Driving downtown, I might see an old car once every month in the summer. As far as the type of attention I get, it seems like the grubbier and more unpleasant the person is, the more they want to come over and tell you about your car. It's never hot chicks, it's always guys missing teeth!

The difficult part of all this is that I'd really like to interact with other people like me in person - bench racing, discussing parts, swapping tips, that sort of thing. I hear stories about people getting their friends to help them swap an engine and it boggles my mind because none of my local friends could change the oil, if they even owned a car.

Anyone else in a similar situation?

I've been driving a muscle car since I was 20. Naturally, I've got used to being somewhat on my own in the scene with being in the UK.

In England, it's very much like you say - most american car owners think they're in the 50s and elvis, rock'n'roll and country music seems to be everywhere in the scene.

I was once banned from a uk american car forum for complaining about the constant 50's music theming at the show...ordinarily I'd have no problem, but this it's a show hosted twice a year by the Britains US car auto club. It shouldn't be themed just to suit the top 5 people in the club...it should cater for everyone.

Needless to say - I started my own website and I've found that some younger muscle car owners are out there experiencing the same as us...and some older muscle car owners don't want die-hard theming of the shows either.



Re: the tuner shows...I find my car gets HUGE attention at such events. It's always well received, even if you do get the most stupid comments. I know there aren't many like us at those meets, but they're worth going to for that reaction. lol

[Shiro666]

I'm 27 and live in Maine, bit I WISH I was urban.....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/16hotp1-1.jpg

[rosslord]

I would recommend not discriminating between muscle cars/hotrods/imports/european.

I can't emphasize that enough. The car guys I hang out with are into imports, 4x4s, bikes, etc. On the east coast and in cities, there are just aren't many car people in general. Just because someone doesn't like the same cars as you do doesn't mean they won't be fun to hang out with. My friends are willing to lend a hand on my El C, even if it isn't really their style.

[sinnner70]

Amusingly I bumped into a guy in an El Camino this afternoon who told me about a "local" car show. Turns out it was once again the same old story - in the suburbs, with do-wop music and a sea of grey hair and boring stock cars or dragsters - not a one that could turn a corner worth a damn.

Why can't there be some younger pro-touring people within 50 miles?!

Dude, i'm in Whitby, 38, '70 TA. Wow, that is so Lavalife it's scary :bsjerk:.

Anyways, yeah the cruises aren't a priority for me for awhile now due to what has been captured here. There is one pretty good one though on Wednesday nights at Haugen's Chicken just north of Brooklyn, usually 2-3 hundred cars (at least there were when I used to go), so you get a variety of folks there and more 70's rock than anything iirc. But it sure doesn't solve your geographically challenged issue.

I hear you about TO, had the car downtown on a date with the wife and the biggest draw was the dirty looking BICYCLE messenger tapping the window hollering about the car...freaked the wife out lol...all I was thinking was 'Dude! Fingerprints!'

[Kenova]

There is one pretty good one though on Wednesday nights at Haugen's Chicken just north of Brooklyn, usually 2-3 hundred cars (at least there were when I used to go), so you get a variety of folks there and more 70's rock than anything iirc. But it sure doesn't solve your geographically challenged issue.
I've been going there a couple times a month for the past few years. There aren't as many cars as there used to be. Don't know why :dunno: . You are right though, there is usually a good variety in the fifty or so that show up. Haugens is one of my favorites because of the forty minute drive. There is a cruise in my town the same night, but it's just around the block. No fun in a short drive like that.



I hear you about TO, had the car downtown on a date with the wife and the biggest draw was the dirty looking BICYCLE messenger tapping the window hollering about the car...freaked the wife out lol...all I was thinking was 'Dude! Fingerprints!'

:lmao: Reminds of years ago when my buddy pulled into a gas station with his '69 Barracuda. He had spent most of the afternoon cleaning it up, including the windows. The pump jockey was determined to clean the windshield on the 'Cuda. My buddy threatened to break his legs and use the squeegee to give the kid a proctollogical examination.

Ken

[joemac]

I live inside the beltway (DC), and almost never see anything that isn't fuel injected. My shop is is further south and the scene is quite a bit better yet very diverse.

I've been to London and Toronto tons of times, and the scene in London/Kitchner...et al is much better than Toronto. I think the problem with urban centers has much to do with garage space. I love living in close to the action, but it's cheaper for me to own a condo and rent garage space than it is to own a house with a garage where I want to live. Same deal with London, it's a heck of a lot cheaper to get a place with a garage than it would be in Toronto. The funny thing is that people with garages downtown aren't gearheads -- at least I haven't seen one yet.

Where is your shop located? I'm about an hour South of DC.

[fantasygoat]

I love city life, I love the culture, the art, the restaurants, the old architecture, to me it goes hand in hand with wanting to take an old vehicle (wether its a muscle car or not) and making something unique, and improved out of it. I wouldn't trade my location for ease of working on my car, or surrounding myself with people who's interests are just like mine.

You really summed the situation up perfectly. Quite a few people recommending I move, when the whole point is to try and have the best of both worlds - the lively downtown life *and* other gearheads to meet up with that aren't an hour's drive away.

The suggestion for the Wednesday night show is a good one, although that's still technically Mississauga. :smoke:

Another person recommended I try the local SOLO parking lot races to find more performance-oriented folks.

I may be forced to start my own urban car club!

[69496]

the most hilarious thing is that (at the cruise in) they always wear..

Jean shorts(sometimes stonewashed)
socks too tall for the shoes
dirty ass white tshirt
and if they have money then a clean ass white tshirt
and finally.. a huge damn gut!

ahhahahaa

The shows I go to they usually are wearing a button up shirt with corvettes or other cars all over them. Similar to a Hawaiian shirt. Same jean shorts, socks and shoes though. Add in the Aviator glasses and sun burn. :enguard:. All in fun, not trying to hurt anyones feelings.

[Rybar]

Interesting thread, I see where you are going with this as downtown Vancouver seems very similar. More people driving Lambos and Ferrari's than musclecars in the downtown scene.

I never thought about the downtown core being mainly condo's with very little detached houses, meaning little to no garage space to work on a car. Plus the fact that living closer to downtown costs so much more money. If you want a house with a big lot, with a shop? Move out to the burbs. All the car shows, cruise nights, speed shops etc have all moved out that way, away from the Lambo and Ferrari dealerships from downtown.

On a funny note, I witnessed some red-neck mothers with small kids flashing pro-street car owners to do burnouts at local sub-urb cruise nights. Doubt that would ever happen downtown to some rich guy driving an Lambo. lol

[ill steez]

I'm 26 and have been into muscle cars since high school, along with most of my friends.... and I def don't have a gut :rotfl:

I've actually noticed that there aren't nearly as many car/musclecar guys in so cal as I would have though. A lot of really high end stuff though. Lots of porsche and lambo.

[tazzz25906112]

You really summed the situation up perfectly. Quite a few people recommending I move, when the whole point is to try and have the best of both worlds - the lively downtown life *and* other gearheads to meet up with that aren't an hour's drive away.

The suggestion for the Wednesday night show is a good one, although that's still technically Mississauga. :smoke:

Another person recommended I try the local SOLO parking lot races to find more performance-oriented folks.

I may be forced to start my own urban car club!

Actually it's still considered Toronto and you can get there from the city core in approximately 15 minutes max (provided you're not trying that a 5pm)....

Give it a shot you have nothing to lose bud....

[Hellky]

Rybar, where are you seein the flash show? I should head out that way lol.
I agree, the younger cruisers are in integras and civics n such, not muscle cars unfortunately. Im 24 and drive my 72 camino daily, overdrive helps. I have a few friends with some older first and second gen firebirds and corvettes, my bro is 21 and he has a 64 riviera and 78 vette. Its the cost of owning them, fuel economy, insurance is higher than guys our age insuring civics, that tends to turn them away, and to build up power you have to actually bolt stuff on and swap things, not hook up a laptop or a tuner that cost 100 bucks and can give you a lot more horsepower percentage wise.

There are younger guys with muscle cars out there, they are just harder to find. At $1.15 a liter it gets pricey, but id rather drive my car than a import anyday. I still can't get over the fact that i live in a smaller town and have driven the car everyday and the same local people still think i have taken my dads car without him knowing!

[DocJr]

So...pretty much all bases were covered..I'm just giving my couple of cents now.

I'm 22, and own a '69 Cutlass (A heap of rust right now). My dad owns a '68 442. (It's basically an original car with custom paint, and a beast of a 455)

I think the original poster said something about Muscle cars in general not just the letters PT. (No Offense here) If you wanna get technical, when muscle cars came out, they were in fact intended for straight line use, sure they did other tests and stuff, but cmon we all know it was the horsepower wars, and drag racing.

Music at Cruise In's?? my advice would be to get over it. I'm used to everything from 50's up to 80's The club I belong to plays 50's and 60's most of the time, it suites the "crowd" which is basically everybody, my cruise ranges from 300-400 cars (Huge variety of people) therefore Zepplin isn't the music of choice. Expect 50' and 60's.

Then we have the famous argument of style. To each their own man. Just because the 'lots full of dragsters means nothing. I was brought up on '90's pro street. It's still prevalent in my area. I think the most Pro Touring we get is when Jason and G-Force visits, most of the time it's just a slightly modified car sittin on 18's and 20's..then again we have a large variety of cars, low riders, lead sleds, rat rods, Blown Alki, imports, anything you want.

Apparel? why is that in the conversation? who cares what you wear? I'm a bluejeans t-shirt guy myself.

Overall, I would say if you're not satisfied with what's around ya...change it. Ima 'bout ready to high tail it to SoCal!!

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


The shows I go to they usually are wearing a button up shirt with corvettes or other cars all over them. Similar to a Hawaiian shirt. Same jean shorts, socks and shoes though. Add in the Aviator glasses and sun burn. :enguard:. All in fun, not trying to hurt anyones feelings.

[79PonchoUK]

I can't emphasize that enough. The car guys I hang out with are into imports, 4x4s, bikes, etc. On the east coast and in cities, there are just aren't many car people in general. Just because someone doesn't like the same cars as you do doesn't mean they won't be fun to hang out with. My friends are willing to lend a hand on my El C, even if it isn't really their style.

No, no, no.

I strongly recommend hanging out with people from other car scenes. I totally agree.

But...


DO DISCRIMINATE.


Most of my friends have little engines with turbos. We have the best banter ever over what's better, what's faster etc.

When my friends turbo engines blow themselves to bits, I have a great time and they know it.

Similarly, when my muscle car chews it's own internals because it encountered a corner...they piss themselves with laughter....and I know it.

All in all, it makes healthy friendships with plenty to talk about, good times and bad times.



Make friends with a turbo import owner then revel in picking up bits of piston as a favour to him. Take your car to the import meets...and get them to come with their imports to the muscle car meets. Let the piss taking flow and know that none of it really matters.

[79PonchoUK]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I just don't understand why that made me laugh.

Please explain.

[rosslord]

DO DISCRIMINATE.


Most of my friends have little engines with turbos. We have the best banter ever over what's better, what's faster etc.

Haha. I agree that this is very important. You have to give each other some crap over what is better. Make sure you bring 5lb bags of rice and sake to help out your import friends, because they will definitely be bringing mullet wigs and trucker hats to help you out.

[sinnner70]

Haha. I agree that this is very important. You have to give each other some crap over what is better. Make sure you bring 5lb bags of rice and sake to help out your import friends, because they will definitely be bringing mullet wigs and trucker hats to help you out.

Yup, but this can also be applied within our own segment, for example, how I love to give my brother in law (in his mid-thirties by the way :woot:) a hard time about his craptastic (my synonym for fricken' awesome that I will NEVER admit to him), Hotchkiss suspended, 388 stroked, triple black '69 vert GAYmaro. Or in kind, how I have to take it on the chin for my far superior Fireturd.

Did I mention that the Fireturd is by far the superior specimen? :slap:

[79PonchoUK]

Haha. I agree that this is very important. You have to give each other some crap over what is better. Make sure you bring 5lb bags of rice and sake to help out your import friends, because they will definitely be bringing mullet wigs and trucker hats to help you out.

The best thing in the world is when you race a ricer and he blows his engine up trying to beat you. I'm not saying that's happened to me, but it was a bit of a coincidence that the next day this ricer was running on 5 cyls instead of 6.

I don't condone mocking other people over their engine misfortune.




....unless they own japanese cars.




It's all very healthy rivalry. It's like a harmless war and it's blatently obvious that mankind simply can't do without some kind of war.

Damn, that sounds almost political. Ignore me.

[joemac]

When I said don't discriminate I just meant that import/european or any other segment are still gear heads and you shouldn't not associate with them just because you're in a different segment.

So, we are in agreement more or less because you have to be friends and hang out with them to give them truckers hats and bags of rice.

[James21]

I'm only 23 and have been in to all types of cars. Most of my friends are in the euro scene. Ill tell you what they have some of the best cruises I've been on. Forget the honda scene though. Its fun and cheap to tune a honda, but the crowd that comes with it is bad. I went on a cruise with them and two cars ended up getting totaled because they were driving recklessly.

I agree on the cost of the car's being the main factor, that and there are not nearly as many hot rod shops as tuner shops anymore. My hot rod guy up and left Oregon. Now I'm on my own trying to build a turbo system for my Nova. I also think its the lack of knowledge of the older cars as well. They are so easy to work on but like other people were saying, these days people would rather pay some one to do the work rather then do it themselves.

My cars:

My nova, its my baby. Ive had it since 2002.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/nova2-1.jpg

The black rabbit was mine (I've had 5 VW's LOL)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/DSCN3385-1.jpg

My DD civic
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/mycivic4-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/IMG_0107-1.jpg

[64Chevelle]

Hi, I recognize a lot of what you guys are saying. In my club here in Norway (Europe) a lot of the people are very nostalgic. I think most of the older guys (which the majority is) thinks everything was better before and dream about getting back to the 60's/70's when they were young and the 50's cars where the classics. When I showed up with motor related questions about the LT1 fuel injected engine in my Chevelle 10 years ago they looked at me with suspicion and they still want the cars to be like they rolled out the factory.

To show you what I mean, here is the place where the wednesday cruise in's are located: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfp5KVk_7WQ and http://www.nostalgia.no/. Click "Undersider" in the menu and below are links to the cruise nights with pictures.

Some younger guys have picked up the hobby, in part due to:

- Lot of HP for relatively low cost.
- Very cheap insurance
- Cool factor and a lot of classic US cars in the country.

If it wasn't for the low cost of owning such a car I probably wouldn't own one myself.

Norway is probably the country in the world with highest percentage of car people. There are so many cool cars around here, even though they are expensive as h***. But because of the price, perhaps we take better care of the cars and value them more :)

US government should tax the same way we do, f.ex a new 2010 camaro costs $200.000 here, I could get a pretty decent PT car for that kind of money :)

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/2upe3aw-1.gif

[TonyHuntimer]

Here's another angle...
There's less people getting started in hot rodding now because there's less local access to it. Thanks to $umm!+ (and other cheap walmart-type businesses) we've slowly lost almost all of the local speed shops where kids can easily access hot rod parts, sage advice, and hang out with other hot rodders. Young people who would like to get into hot rodding are forced to call hotrod-walmart, buy the part without good advice over the phone or over the internet and install it on with no advice...and have all sorts of problems because it didn't fit right or it made the car run worse. This has happened enough that the young hot rodders have decided hot rodding is only for the people who can afford to have a shop build their car and they have given up.

Here's the other problem I've found with living in a big city...like let's say...San Francisco. People typically move there because they want to live somewhere where they don't have to drive and can take public transportation. If they do have a car, it's a hassle. You hardly drive your car. You have a garage, but your car doesn't fit in it and if you do park in your garage, somebody will block your driveway because parking in big cities sucks! You haven't driven your car in 2 months but you have to go move it every other Tuesday for street sweeping...but you have to park 5 blocks from your house because parking sucks. Your car is out of sight and it gets broken into or stolen. Pretty soon you figure having a car when living in a big city is more trouble than it's worth.

Two rants. my $.02

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com
Tony's Speed Shop

[joemac]

Here's another angle...
There's less people getting started in hot rodding now because there's less local access to it. Thanks to $umm!+ (and other cheap walmart-type businesses) we've slowly lost almost all of the local speed shops where kids can easily access hot rod parts, sage advice, and hang out with other hot rodders. Young people who would like to get into hot rodding are forced to call hotrod-walmart, buy the part without good advice over the phone or over the internet and install it on with no advice...and have all sorts of problems because it didn't fit right or it made the car run worse. This has happened enough that the young hot rodders have decided hot rodding is only for the people who can afford to have a shop build their car and they have given up.

Here's the other problem I've found with living in a big city...like let's say...San Francisco. People typically move there because they want to live somewhere where they don't have to drive and can take public transportation. If they do have a car, it's a hassle. You hardly drive your car. You have a garage, but your car doesn't fit in it and if you do park in your garage, somebody will block your driveway because parking in big cities sucks! You haven't driven your car in 2 months but you have to go move it every other Tuesday for street sweeping...but you have to park 5 blocks from your house because parking sucks. Your car is out of sight and it gets broken into or stolen. Pretty soon you figure having a car when living in a big city is more trouble than it's worth.

Two rants. my $.02

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com
Tony's Speed Shop

I'll expand on the first point. The customer service rep on the summit order line also isn't going to say you don't need that $872 rear disc brake conversion kit, you can find a stock set off of a _______ and it's a direct bolt on. Where as the speed shop owner will probably know tons of these money saving tricks. So, there is always a larger market when it costs less to do something. Simple supply and demand. I tend to agree with this.

It's a shame to see our economy controlled by these huge corporations with much of their merchandise coming from outside the US. One reason I got started doing what I'm doing. It's a US company that sources their materials from the US and uses Independent Dealers for distribution.

[shortrack]

Dude, i'm in Whitby, 38, '70 TA. Wow, that is so Lavalife it's scary :bsjerk:.

Anyways, yeah the cruises aren't a priority for me for awhile now due to what has been captured here. There is one pretty good one though on Wednesday nights at Haugen's Chicken just north of Brooklyn, usually 2-3 hundred cars (at least there were when I used to go), so you get a variety of folks there and more 70's rock than anything iirc. But it sure doesn't solve your geographically challenged issue.

I hear you about TO, had the car downtown on a date with the wife and the biggest draw was the dirty looking BICYCLE messenger tapping the window hollering about the car...freaked the wife out lol...all I was thinking was 'Dude! Fingerprints!'

Hey Im in Whitby just off Thickson on the road to Optimists Park....you should drop by

Haugens is still good but if theres any threat of rain the turnout will be bad....

To the OP...you need to move to the Burbs for all the reasons mentioned above.....

[wmhjr]

Hold up there a minute.

I completely get the fact that a lot of local shops no longer exist. But frankly, at least around here, Summit had nothing to do with that. They started evaporating long before Summit became a force in the industry. This is a very geographically regional issue.

I am also a HUGE proponent of small business, and make every effort to give business to the small shops - though frankly in my case those small shops happen to be quite a distance from my home. There are a number of small business sponsors on this site that know I'm not talking BS. They have happily gotten a good bit of money out of me, and I'm thankful that they're around. But so has Summit and Jegs, and I'm also thankful that THEY are around.

But beyond that, let me give you another perspective. Without Summit, there just wouldn't be the availability of product that we all need. And frankly, there are probably products out there that we all use now that wouldn't exist because they wouldn't get enough volume to survive otherwise. AND - I know for certain that many of the small shops that DO exist now, do so by using Summit and Jegs. You guys are absolutely right that neither Summit or Jegs provide the down home mechanical advice that the small shops provide. It needs to be a combination of both. My bet at the end of the day, however is that we have MORE performance cars on the road because of summit and jegs than we would have without them.

[fantasygoat]

To the OP...you need to move to the Burbs for all the reasons mentioned above.....

So your solution to the problem of finding young urban car people is to move to the suburbs to hang out with the old suburban car people?

[69projectKAOS]

I am 19, and i had my 69 since i was 13 and have been in love with American muscle all my life. also i have been doing all the work on my car with my dad and brothers.-Dom

[badbu68]

60's cars cost too much and are too rusty here in IL. Most of the guys I know that would be musclecar guys have 80s foxbodies cause they are cheap, have plenty of aftermarket for em and are setup for drag racing. I've had a 68 chevelle since I was 18 (I'm 32 now) and haven't met many my age or younger that have any muscle cars.

[wmhjr]

So your solution to the problem of finding young urban car people is to move to the suburbs to hang out with the old suburban car people?

Well, you could go with the strategy of redesigning the entire city, eliminating obstacles, reducing traffic and congestion, increasing parking and garage availability or forcing all the people that don't live in the city to move INTO the city where they would also not have garages, where they'd have limited space to park - much less work on their vehicles, where sound restrictions are more severe, and where traffic is heavier.....

I think the point was that the urban landscape is just not as physically conducive to the musclecar and PT car hobby as suburbs. It's unfortunate, but probably pretty realistic, don't you think?

[Smock67]

Im 20 living in Tampa and guess I am fortunate enough to have a DD camry that my girlfriends mom is letting me use. I wish I didn't have to use it and had my Firebird finished which is not finished because of lack of time (full time student, full time job) and money again full time student.

I am a car guy I started out with a 2003 Tiburon, with so many modifications it was ridiculous. Car got stolen and burned, decided for a change and got my 67 Bird, been working on it since 2007. People are out there it may just take awhile to find them.

[shortrack]

none of my local friends could change the oil, if they even owned a car.


I think you pretty much summed up most urban Toronto people right there, makes it hard when those are your friends......I know The Third Gen Assc. of Ontario is all guys about your age and I would think the local Mustang clubs (mostly Fox body I would think) is prob the same, maybe you could check out their websites and find some guys who speak your language nearby

where did you get your influences to build a Torino?....you gotta admit its not your typical urbanites Beemer or Prius.

[TonyHuntimer]

Hold up there a minute.

I completely get the fact that a lot of local shops no longer exist. But frankly, at least around here, Summit had nothing to do with that. They started evaporating long before Summit became a force in the industry. This is a very geographically regional issue.

I am also a HUGE proponent of small business, and make every effort to give business to the small shops - though frankly in my case those small shops happen to be quite a distance from my home. There are a number of small business sponsors on this site that know I'm not talking BS. They have happily gotten a good bit of money out of me, and I'm thankful that they're around. But so has Summit and Jegs, and I'm also thankful that THEY are around.

Well, after being in the speed shop business for many years I can tell you that those big retail chains cut into the bottom dollar of the local shop puting them out of business since in order to compete the local shops have to cut their prices to about 0-10%. You tell me how any small business (retail or any other type) that can make it on 0 to 10%. The saddest part of the small shops is that they are forced to buy their products from the wholesale side of the big retail giant you mentioned in order to survive...so this method further supports the giant that is cutting their business down to the bone. NICE!

Oh, and don't forget that all the business you send to the big retail chain in Ohio puts all the money into their economy...not your local economy.

I get the points you made, but the bottom line is that being outside of the industry allows you to see it with rose colored glasses. If you talk to anyone who's been behind the scenes for more than 10 years and you'll probably get a similar opinion to the one I'm voicing.

The big names you mentioned weren't the first companies to hurt the industry. Remember Super Shops? The big places you mentioned have really honed the business method of "cheaper and more volume" without having the support and advice.

My only hope in mentioning all this is that if you have a local shop, try to support it and your local economy if you care or can afford to and it may help them stay open a little longer so local kids can get a taste of hot rodding.

I know return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

I live in a city with about 1.5 million people (including closely neighboring cities) and there are a lot less hot rodders per capita here than there are in some of the surrounding towns 20 minutes away. Maybe there are too many people here that are into being green. Most kids these days (I just turned old) are being brought up as wussies and have many other interests sitting at the computer instead of being out and about having fun. If I grew up with a computer with so much to "see" on the Internet at my fingertips...you know what I mean...I don't know if I would have ever left the house to hot rod around with my friends. So many things have changed for young urban kids. There are hot rod urban folks, there's just less of them than there were 20 years ago. It's sad.

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[wmhjr]

Well, after being in the speed shop business for many years I can tell you that those big retail chains cut into the bottom dollar of the local shop puting them out of business since in order to compete the local shops have to cut their prices to about 0-10%. You tell me how any small business (retail or any other type) that can make it on 0 to 10%. The saddest part of the small shops is that they are forced to buy their products from the wholesale side of the big retail giant you mentioned in order to survive...so this method further supports the giant that is cutting their business down to the bone. NICE!

Oh, and don't forget that all the business you send to the big retail chain in Ohio puts all the money into their economy...not your local economy.

I get the points you made, but the bottom line is that being outside of the industry allows you to see it with rose colored glasses. If you talk to anyone who's been behind the scenes for more than 10 years and you'll probably get a similar opinion to the one I'm voicing.

The big names you mentioned weren't the first companies to hurt the industry. Remember Super Shops? The big places you mentioned have really honed the business method of "cheaper and more volume" without having the support and advice.

My only hope in mentioning all this is that if you have a local shop, try to support it and your local economy if you care or can afford to and it may help them stay open a little longer so local kids can get a taste of hot rodding.


Gotta tell you, Tony - it's sure different around here. There used to be one (1) speed shop near here. It was in business for decades, and was known for their high prices and relatively shady reputation. They didn't stock much, and you were subject to their whims. They went out of business as a speed shop LONG before ANY "super" store was around. You were forced to call all over to distant shops to order stuff, wait a long time and pay high prices. If you were on a budget - you were out of luck.

Today it's different. Don't get me wrong - like I said I support MANY small shops. Many of the sponsors here. But businesses need to provide some value add. If they do, then their business model can work. If a small shop is expecting to make a big margin and be profitable just selling parts, they'd better wake up and smell the coffee. That's not just a speed shop issue - it's simply econ 101. I'm looking at nothing with rose colored glasses. I'm just looking with realistic glasses (btw, they're bifocals). A speed shop that provides added value can still compete with Summit/Jegs. A speed shop that doesn't provide a value add - well - rough times are ahead.

[79PonchoUK]

Gotta tell you, Tony - it's sure different around here. There used to be one (1) speed shop near here. It was in business for decades, and was known for their high prices and relatively shady reputation. They didn't stock much, and you were subject to their whims. They went out of business as a speed shop LONG before ANY "super" store was around. You were forced to call all over to distant shops to order stuff, wait a long time and pay high prices. If you were on a budget - you were out of luck.

Today it's different. Don't get me wrong - like I said I support MANY small shops. Many of the sponsors here. But businesses need to provide some value add. If they do, then their business model can work. If a small shop is expecting to make a big margin and be profitable just selling parts, they'd better wake up and smell the coffee. That's not just a speed shop issue - it's simply econ 101. I'm looking at nothing with rose colored glasses. I'm just looking with realistic glasses (btw, they're bifocals). A speed shop that provides added value can still compete with Summit/Jegs. A speed shop that doesn't provide a value add - well - rough times are ahead.

Agreed...it's often a case of not keeping up with the times.

9 times out of 10, excuses for going out of business are the sole fault of the business owner.....you can't blame the competition for doing something you could just as easily do yourself.

The summit shop does pose a challenge for selling similar parts, but good local advertising would nearly always be further forward in the minds of 'hotrodders' than national...The vast use of internet forums like these makes it even more difficult, but there's nothing stopping local shops getting in on the national market by specialising in a particular area - be it a particular engine, part of an engine, suspension, transmission, paint, headlings, lol. anything.

As said above, you can also add an advantage so easily with this industry. Local shops could sell parts at a higher price and offer discounted fitting, free oil change etc. Advertising the competition's extra charges in shipping etc. to make your prices seem more reasonable....the list is huge.

One thing I notice in the UK is the companies that don't embrace the scene. Those that try to be too professional and too 'arms length' don't last long. You need a local following and you need to almost become a club at the same time. Have people drop by for the sake of it, don't give them any time, but don't make them feel unwelcome. Have a website, have a forum. Have open days. So many of them don't, they just want to come to work, do that work and go home.

Building loyalty to your business makes it much, much more secure.




It's all about advertising though. I tell that to all my customers, obviously, I sell marketing products and services....but it's true. The only businesses that survive recessions are the businesses that spend more on marketing during it. Oddly enough, it's the first thing companies cut back on. I noticed the one's that are still doing well in recession time are the companies that are still spending. You could argue that's the reason they're still spending, but I see the number of calls and website visitors coming direct from the advertising I do - It's plain to see. If anything, a recession should be seen as a time to get ahead of the competition more easily.




Times may be harder, but any sensible speed shop should see it as barely more than an obstacle, rather than a falling axe.

[JChilders]

I think the problem with the city is who wants to cruise in traffic and deal with morons. My friend lives in South Philly and has had his car stolen 3 times. I think he is now done with muscle cars.

[79PonchoUK]

I live in the center of England - population 230,000 in the urban area.

I can think of at least 10 muscle car owners that live within 10 minutes of me. Obviously, this is a very small city, and large cities will have more restricted road systems.....

....although at certain times of day, in most cities, you can enjoy your muscle car as much as you want without too much traffic. I regularly go out in mine after 9pm and enjoy the relatively empty roads. Stay out until after midnight and you can really have some fun. Though I do feel guilty about going past peoples houses that late at night - it's a bit loud. lol


And if you can't sit in your muscle car long enough to get out of the city with it, then you're not really intrested anyway.

[Neil B]

I was 30 years old when I bought my '69 Z28 and I lived in San Francisco. We only had room for our daily-driver at our home, so I kept the Camaro in a rented garage in an alley-way about 6 blocks from my house. There were cool cars and projects-in-progress all over the city if you looked for them.

[wantahertzdonut]

I'm one of a few friends who has some old muscle, but we're the exception. I am starting to see a few other guys my age popping up with older cars of some sort, but mostly it's cars that were the thing to have when we were teenagers: fox Mustangs, 3rd/4th gens, MkIII/IV Supras, etc.

I'd like to drive mine more and would take it out when I go out, but I fear the car would just be stolen. It's the unfortunate reality of living in a large city on the decline.

[vintageracer]

The "local" speed shops I see today are service centers and not parts sellers, nothing more. Sure they try to sell parts and be competetive but the reality is that they MUST make a living from the labor they turn in the shop. Installing what they sell AND working on customers cars installing parts provided by the customer is the reality in today's world.. From my perspective these shops "like" to think of themselves as a full service speed shop, tuner shop, specialty shop or whatever the new term is but the reality is that they are just automotive service centers that "try's" to heavily specialize in a certain market segment. Iin most cases most shops still have to do regular servcie work on regular cars to survive. If these shops had to depend upon parts sales for their livelyhood they woulld be gone in 90 days.

The problem with these shops is that most if not all of them have not learned the word NO and how to use with a potential customer! No, I cannot look at your car today. No, you can't drop the car off at my shop for storage until I can get to it. No, I cannot have the work done on your short time schedule. I understand that most if not all small business people, especially in the service industry, are afraid to say no to the customer. In many cases that really is the best answer! So much business and goodwill has been lost by many shops for saying yes and not producing what they said do in the time frame in which they said they would do it!

Most all the speed shops and specialized body shops that "say" that they are the local source our type of cars are really in the storage business. These shops are great at selling the job and HORRIBLE at turning the work. You only get PAID when you complete the job. If more "speed shop" owners understood this concept they might learn to say "no" so they can complete the work they have already sold. The local speed shop owner now needs to be a people manager instead of a gearhead. If more shop owners had a clue of how run a business and that can turn out the work on older muscle/collector cars there would be a lot more choices for the buyer and many more successful "speed shops" in many local cities. As it stands right now who really wants to have a shop build a car since the car ultimately ends in up in "jail" unfinished as deadline after deadline passes. That's the reality for most people building cars today!

That's why there are no local speed shops anymore!!!1

[sinnner70]

Mike, I hear you, when I spun a bearing and had now defunct Agostino Racing Engines rebuild my engine, it was to be a 4 week project.

In retrospect, I was very, very glad that I pulled the engine and brought it down to the shop as opposed to having the car towed there. Now at the time, ARE had an amazing head and cam package for LS1s and with the dollar the way it was, there were more American cars in the shop than Canadian cars.

4 months later and the summer just about over, I had my engine ready. Had ARE install it so I'd be off the hook if anything were to happen. Now the plan was to break it in on my drive to Woodward (on a Saturday). Got about a 100 miles and the engine seized. Had the car towed to the shop. When I went in on Monday to discuss the matter, the owner advised that he had already spoken to his lawyers. The cause: a cracked guide plate (the old ones that weren't replaced in the rebuild for some reason).

Long story short, after 'working' out the repair and who would cover what, I was done with ARE. I then looked elsewhere, obviously, and found exactly the opposite of what you describe above and what I had previously experienced, locally, here in Whitby. The guys are amazing, honest and truly love my car, and as such, it gets the attention I expect it to. Some parts I bring to them, but most they can come close to matching on (after I account for shipping and whatnot to Canada) so I give them the purchase. When it's time for it to go in, we work out the date in advance. If I want it fast, they do their best to accomodate, if not, it just gets a bit more attention. For all these reasons, I do give them the parts business when applicable, and do my labour in cash. It's a great relationship we've built over the past 10 years (I can even work on it myself in their shop from time to time as a result of our mutual trust and friendship).

All that to say, that old school local speed shop does still exist for some, thankfully, and it's been a great experience to be a part of, something that my son is now just getting in on at the age of 8, as he pokes his head in just about every engine compartment he can.

Vince

[wmhjr]

The "local" speed shops I see today are service centers and not parts sellers, nothing more. Sure they try to sell parts and be competetive but the reality is that they MUST make a living from the labor they turn in the shop. Installing what they sell AND working on customers cars installing parts provided by the customer is the reality in today's world..


Right on! There is the "value add". So many people ARE willing to pay a bit more for extra service beyond the sale. But, the service needs to be competent and trustworthy.


The problem with these shops is that most if not all of them have not learned the word NO and how to use with a potential customer! No, I cannot look at your car today. No, you can't drop the car off at my shop for storage until I can get to it. No, I cannot have the work done on your short time schedule. I understand that most if not all small business people, especially in the service industry, are afraid to say no to the customer. In many cases that really is the best answer! So much business and goodwill has been lost by many shops for saying yes and not producing what they said do in the time frame in which they said they would do it!


You REALLY hit the nail on the head with this one! I've been having the same exact conversation with a local shop owner who I've become friends with. He has been building a good reputation for the quality of his work, but his inability to stop accepting cars which results in everyone believing he'll never finish projects is starting to kill his business. I've been trying really hard to get his head straight, but thus far he has yet to say no to a project. As a result, there are some people who have walked away.


The local speed shop owner now needs to be a people manager instead of a gearhead. If more shop owners had a clue of how run a business and that can turn out the work on older muscle/collector cars there would be a lot more choices for the buyer and many more successful "speed shops" in many local cities.


Another terrific insight - but it's not just that they need to be a people manager. They also need to be at least a rough project manager and they need to be able to understand cost and time. Because they get into the business because they love cars, they often believe they don't need to worry about actually managing people or learning how to manage build schedules, supply chain or profitability. As a result, they underbid projects in terms of time and expense, and get low on operating income. Then, they're forced to accept new projects to get cash so that they can continue working on existing projects - which leads back to the previous point.

Todays market is more competitive because there is so much transparency in markets. The internet allows you to easily determine what something "should" cost at least to some extent, so to successfully run a business you need to be smarter than the average bear.

You hit on some really really good points. I think maybe some of these things are ALSO reasons why you don't see as many young guys driving muscle/PT cars. It takes time and money. And regardless of what conceptions some folks have, it's the older of us who generally have more disposable income.

[mikedc]

The bottom line is that kids today don't mess with old cars because they can't afford to get started with a daily driver.

Musclecars start out fast, and then you spend the money making them decent & livable cruisers. Whereas imports start out decent & livable cruisers, and then you spend the money making them fast.

The ultimate final cost doesn't matter when it comes to young people. It's the initial buy-in cost that has to be low.




It's tempting to poke fun at kids for this short term cost mentality. But look in the mirror - guys spending 3x the finished value of a car during its restoration is the backbone of the classic car hobby.

.

[93Polo]

The bottom line is that kids today don't mess with old cars because they can't afford to get started with a daily driver.

Musclecars start out fast, and then you spend the money making them decent & livable cruisers. Whereas imports start out decent & livable cruisers, and then you spend the money making them fast.

The ultimate final cost doesn't matter when it comes to young people. It's the initial buy-in cost that has to be low.




It's tempting to poke fun at kids for this short term cost mentality. But look in the mirror - guys spending 3x the finished value of a car during its restoration is the backbone of the classic car hobby.

.
It is also much easier to finance the purchase price of a 10 yr old or newer car than a muscle car.

Corvettes are becoming more common for kids in their 20s thanks to ease of financing, insurance was not as high as many Imports, affordable purchase price, and they are easy to mod.

[Idesigner]

I currently live in providence RI. I moved here from Philadelphia. I just turned 28 years old and have a 70 Chevelle which is still at my parents house in Philly. Since living here for the last three years i just have not had the money to bring the car up here and store it. I am currently looking for a garage up here in the city to store my car. It is super hard to find a safe location that is clean where i can keep my car and tools so i can work on it when i want too. I am often tempted at selling my car and pocketing the cash to buy a nicer daily driver with a project car down the road.

There are some older cars around in the city not any i would call pro- touring. I wish there were more car clubs or culture here that i could involve myself in. It would be a great way to meet new people.

we are currently living in a time that is making wants less possible because we are more focused on just getting our needs.

[wantahertzdonut]

I'm with you on that. It's tough to have a car that everyone wants, and is very easy to steal. It really makes it hard to take the car out because nothing would be worse than coming out from wherever you are to find the car missing.

I have my car up for sale simply because I have so much money tied up in it, and I also have another car that is super fun to drive, despite not being nearly as "cool" (it is in its own right). It's making having a third car a bit of a trying experience.

Would I like an old car? Absolutely. But it would be nice to have something without so much money tied up in it.

[fantasygoat]

It looks like I'm going to have to be the one that starts an urban musclecar club, so now I'm on the hunt for a meeting spot downtown. Surely there must be a central place for 20+ cars to come hang out!

[claytonisbob]

Man, to the OP; that is EXACTLY how I feel. I'm 25, I live in Dallas and it seems like when I do find someone who's "into cars", they drive a 4th gen Camaro, post fox body Mustang, BMW or a Japanese car (ie G35, 350Z, civic...). No body my age that I run into works on their own cars. I live in an apartment complex, but I have 2 garages. Working on my car IS my weekends, so I justify the cost pretty easily. I can honestly say I'm the only one I know around (under 40) swapping a 6.0L LS engine with a t56 in a '69 Chevelle, keeping the fuel injection. Most people I run into just ask, "How do you know how to do this? (working on cars/bikes)" My reply, "I didn't know until I started, and now I know".

I go to my desk job with grit under my nails. I am a programmer/business analyst, and people I work with typically talk about cars frequently, but it's always new cars. Every time I think about how much a BMW cost, I think of all the crazy things I could do to an older car for less.

That being said, I'm sure there are several people here that work on their own cars. I just never see them. It's probably best I don't work with other guys that work on cars, I wouldn't get any work done.

[Blue67gto]

I live in Seattle, I'm 26 and have a 1967 GTO, a 1972 K5 blazer, a 1979 ford f250, and a 1931 model A Ford.

[sovain]

come down to Cambridge/Kitchener way there is always a gathering of muscle cars at nearly every timmies.there is also a cruise the king in Kitchener in July follow by a little street action(sometimes)afterwards!
the ladies down this way are decent to hot and love the muscle car scene.check out Milton also.

[sik68]

I'm 26 and live in the Bay Area, CA; there is serious money around here and I see awesome cars on a daily basis. Most of the cars are driven for posturing, but the gearheads are well represented too. The majority though, is the "car is an appliance" crowd. It's almost better to have such a dichotomy, it makes my passion for cars feel that much more special.

[woody80z28]

Sounds like I'm in your boat. I'm 24 and the old farts in the local car club don't have the appreciation for pro-touring or new technology in general.

I've found the Beretta crowd is more my age, but there are few of them that are really well built, and we have meets only a couple times a year because we are so few & far between.

[youngdeezy]

great topic and i feel your pain . im urban and young and only have 1 main friend into this like myself which sucks. my plan is to just post something up on craigslist to get something going with some younger guys who dont mind doing suspension mods and slapping bigger rims on a car.