69 Firebird - Wheel Setup

[ModernMuseum]

Happy Tuesday! I hope everyone had a safe Memorial Day.

Concerning the wheel setup on Project Death Machine,
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68672

I want to run solid black BOZE Pro-Touring wheels.
http://www.bozeforged.com/protouring.html

I haven't decided on going with a glossy or matte black finish. The car is solid black - almost all chrome has been removed and converted to black. I'm guessing either one would be powder coated for durability. I've read on here that an 8" wheel would be the widest that could be run in the front without limiting the steering. I'm not sure I want to go with the full 12" wide in the back, so I may just run an 11" to maintain a wide stance but reduce the contrast (width) between the front and the back. The vehicle currently has the following suspension components:

DS&E mini tub kit
DS&E rear leaf springs 2" lower than stock
Hotchkis 2" lowered front spring
Hotchkis front/rear sway bar
Ford narrowed 9" 3.73 rear end

Can I get people's thoughts on this wheel setup? I don't have any idea on the offset yet, so any recommendations would be helpful. I want to maintain the stock control arms and spindles right now and do an arm/spindle/brake upgrade in a year or two when the budget opens up again. I want to make sure the wheel selection right now won't experience any negative repercussions with future upgrades.
In summary here are my requirements:


I would like the top of the wheel to be just under the fender. I prefer minimal wheel gap between the top of the wheel (not the tire) and the fender. I want to maintain the lowest (reasonably) possibly stance in the front. 69 Firebirds that are too high are unappealing to say the least.
I obviuosly want everything tucked inside the fender. I'll try to find some typical photos of what I'm trying to achieve later today.
I'd like to get people's thoughts on the following:


Running an 18/19 setup versus 18/18.
Effect on future spindle/arm upgrades to tubular design.
Wheel finishes - matte or glossy!!??
Suggestions for offset

[ModernMuseum]

Ok, here is kind of what I'd like to achieve. Can this be done with the stock spindles/arms and rear leaves as I have them with only minor adjustments? I'm willing to add/remove leaves in the back and change the springs if need be. Again, I'd like to do the control arm / brake upgrade in a few years.

This guy has 8"/11.5" and 18's in the front and 19's in the back:

http://www.lateral-g.net/members/jhanson/

[ProdigyCustoms]

The front 8s are no problem. The backspace on the rear wheels will be totally dependant on how much (if any) you narrow the rear end.

The solid black Pro Touring wheel will look very aggresive. be care though, it is hard to tell where a black wheel starts and a tire ends!

Let us know when your ready, we are a Boze dealer

[68firebird]

I love Boze rims!!!

[ModernMuseum]

Wow, I finally got some replies!!!! Thanks gents. This sub-forum is almost as bad as the brakes forum :machine:

Yeah, I'm on the fence about completely black rims. It seems like everyone and their dalmation is utilizing a chrome trim around a black rim. I was thinking that if I don't like the completely black rim, I could come back and add a red pinstripe or something.

The goal is in fact to look very aggressive. I don't want it to look awkward or silly though.

[ProdigyCustoms]

A brushed lip is cvool, and adding a red pinstripe is even cooler.

Check out these forgiles we just did for a member

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68859&highlight=forgelines

those are a brushed nickel hoop, a little brighter then a brushed aluminum hoop would be.

We could be a brushed hoop / black center Boze Pro Touring no problem.

[ModernMuseum]

A brushed lip is cvool, and adding a red pinstripe is even cooler.

Check out these forgiles we just did for a member

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68859&highlight=forgelines

those are a brushed nickel hoop, a little brighter then a brushed aluminum hoop would be.

We could be a brushed hoop / black center Boze Pro Touring no problem.


Yeah, those are cool I guess. Definitely not me though.

It's basically just down to what finish would look the best (glossy, matte) and what would be the toughest against rock chips. Paint? Powder coating?

I'm trying to decide if a glossy black car would only look good w/ glossy wheels or if i could skate by with a matte finish (or some in-between compromise). If you were the grim reaper, what would you chooise if you had to collect souls and be aesthetically pleasing? Hehe.

[mc84_zz4]

I saw one of these Z06 Black editions recently, and I thought it looked killer. If you're going to murder it out, go all the way.
JMHO
Your paint looks enviably deep. :1st:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[ProdigyCustoms]

Matte Black!

[Josh69]

Looks familiar! I was considering doing matte black wheels on mine down the road and those Boze PT wheels are a top choice, I'd love it if you did it first so I can decide after that. LOL!

Keep us posted, cool to see another black '69 in the house.

[ModernMuseum]

I saw one of these Z06 Black editions recently, and I thought it looked killer. If you're going to murder it out, go all the way.
JMHO
Your paint looks enviably deep. :1st:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

heh, my paint looks deep?

Yeah, the only super black/black combo I've seen is on newish vettes. They seem to be the only crowd that will venture into the uncharted abyss of a completely murdered out vehicle.

Are those glossy? They look like somewhere in between glossy and matte.

[mc84_zz4]

Here's another pic of the same car, they used gloss finish on them..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/chevroletcorvettez3_800x0w-1.jpg

[montessaj]

Murder it out!

[ModernMuseum]

Wow, that's not sexy at all :yum:

That's it, I'll probably end up going with the glossy black. Thanks for posting up that photo.

[ProdigyCustoms]

It is a double powder coat fee, but gloss black lip and matte black center, kind of a two tone black, is very cool also and gives back some detail in the wheel still holding on the the Murder theme.

[ModernMuseum]

Sweet. Do you have any photos of the two-toned powder coated wheels?

[ModernMuseum]

I've decided to go ahead and order the tires and do a mock-up fitment after performance numerous "in-air" measurements. I've decided on these, as they fit my budget and I believe are a good cross between street and track. Most of the 315+ tires seems like track-ish tires anyway unless you want to pay $450/ea. for the Michelin PS2's, which is ridiculous.

Kuhmo Ecsta XS
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+XS&partnum=13WR8EXS&i1_Qty=2

Anyway, tirerack has both a 245/35/1 and 245/40/18 for the front. Will the 35 look too thin up front? It looks like a lot of people have been running the 40 tread wall.

For the rear's, after searching numerous boards, I'm going to go with a 315/30/18.

The wheels I plan on going with a are 8" fronts and 11" rears - Boze Pro Touring 18". After getting the tires here, I'll have to figure out the appropriate backspacing.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I could not find a Pro Touuring wheel in 2 tone black but I got a pick of a Pro Lite in Gloss Black lip and matte black center.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I've decided to go ahead and order the tires and do a mock-up fitment after performance numerous "in-air" measurements. I've decided on these, as they fit my budget and I believe are a good cross between street and track. Most of the 315+ tires seems like track-ish tires anyway unless you want to pay $450/ea. for the Michelin PS2's, which is ridiculous.

Kuhmo Ecsta XS
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+XS&partnum=13WR8EXS&i1_Qty=2

Anyway, tirerack has both a 245/35/1 and 245/40/18 for the front. Will the 35 look too thin up front? It looks like a lot of people have been running the 40 tread wall.

For the rear's, after searching numerous boards, I'm going to go with a 315/30/18.

The wheels I plan on going with a are 8" fronts and 11" rears - Boze Pro Touring 18". After getting the tires here, I'll have to figure out the appropriate backspacing.

It's important to not make a mistake when ordering custom made wheels, so based on above here's what I'd do:
- measure your wheelhouse @ 10,12 and 2'oclock
- measure the width of your rear end flange to flange
- go here for reference: http://www.1010tires.com/tiresizecalculator.asp
- go to Kore3's website - or any other's that sells the brake kit you are considering - and print out the caliper fittment template for reference. This way when you do any upgrades you know the brake of choice will fit!
- Call Frank w those measurements and he'll get you the proper Bspace for your wheels

Another thing to consider is that you're doing the tubs so you should be good on 315's. If your rear end is too wide for whatever reason, you can usually buy a 1/4" - 5/8" with a fender lip roller.

Last thing - post pics when you get them!

[ModernMuseum]

Frank - thanks for the pics. Looks good!

Flash - thanks for the information. The tires are on the way.

I'm a little confused by your first point: "- measure your wheelhouse @ 10,12 and 2'oclock"

Do you mean perpindicular to the axle, i.e. from the flange face/centerline of the axle to
1) the outer wheel well (10 o'clock)
2) The upper wheel well (12 o'clock)
3) The inner wheel well (2 o'clock)?

Thanks.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

It's really simple - blue tape the outide of your fenders @ 10:00, 12:00 and 2:00. Take the tape measurement on the inside of the finder lip parallel to the ground to the inside (rear) of your wheel house. Do both sides front and rear, just in case there's any variance. Usually the fronts are not the issue; it's the big meat in the rear, but just in case take note of your subframe and control arms to relay to Frank. This measuring point is where the tires will or will not fit. Typically 12:00 will have the most room. Make sense?

[ModernMuseum]

Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, I can do that. However, I noticed in your points that you didn't mention how these three measurements are referenced to the location of the wheel mounting face. Don't some dimensions need to be taken there as well? i.e. wheel mounting face (on the axle) to the inner our outer fender?

[Ron.in.SoCal]

If I understand your question correctly, the measurements and resulting BS measurement will take care of this. Diff wheel manufacturers each have their own mounting pad design specs, but they don't vary too much. The only 'face' issue you really need to be concerned about is what wheel will clear what brake caliper you ultimately use. The template mentioned above will take care of that.

Final thought - Frank guarantees fitment!

[ModernMuseum]

Sweet, thanks a lot man.

I'll take the measurements and post them back up here for everyone's viewing, including Frank's.

[ModernMuseum]

Ok, tires have arrived:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/4731216333_10bc73ae15_o-1.jpg

I took all the dimensions as previously specified...I think.

Frank - let me know if you need some other dimensions:

(O'clock)
10 -------- 12 --------- 2

Rear:

Wheel Flange - Flange: 59"

Left Rear:
14-5/8 ---- 15 ---- 13-3/4

Right Rear:
13-7/8 ---- 15 ---- 14-3/4

Note: The rear inner measurement point was the leaf spring, since the tire would potentially impact the leaf before the inner fender. I already fit the wheels in there and they will fit with APPROXIMATELY 1/2" from the leaf and 1" from the fender lip.

Front:

Wheel Flange - Flange: 60-5/8"

Left Front:
13-1/2 ---- 14-1/4 ---- 13-1/8

Right Front:
13 ---- 14-3/4 ---- 14-1/2


There is a small discrepancy between the left front at 10 o'clock and the right front at 2 o'clock (these should theoretically be the same). I noticed that the inner fenderwell is fabbed a little different, i.e. has a different number of ripples where it is bent at the front.

[ProdigyCustoms]

You need to lay the tire flat on the ground and measure the section width without being mounted to a wheel. Mounted on a 12" wheel they will be 13.6 section. See if they are going to get more narrow or wider when mounted. You can also measure the outside bead to bead to see if they think they are sitting on 11s. 11.5, 12s, etc. Will give you a big indication how much more narrow or wider they will get.

I say a 12" wheel with a 7.5 BS.

[ModernMuseum]

Frank-

Section width: 12-11/16 for the rear.

Bead-to-bead: 11-5/16

I guess I'd like to get them on an 11" if possible. I'll give you a call shortly.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Are they 335?

[ModernMuseum]

315's. I left you a voicemail.

seven one three 494 nine five three seven.

[ProdigyCustoms]

OH, thought they were 335s

I was traveling yesterday, playing catch up today. I am back today. Will call

[ProdigyCustoms]

Frank-

Section width: 12-11/16 for the rear.

Bead-to-bead: 11-5/16

I guess I'd like to get them on an 11" if possible. I'll give you a call shortly.

And yes, those will pull down to 12.5 wide on a 11" rim.

[ModernMuseum]

Ok, give me a shout when you have a chance.

I'm ready to pull the plug once we get the BS issue verified.

Matte Centers, Glossy Rim (provided the dual powder coat option isn't an arm and a leg extra)
8"/11" Front/Rear Wheel

[ModernMuseum]

Frank-

The lug spacing is 4-1/2".

Also, I took some more measurements for your information. I measured from the wheel mounting face to the inner leaf spring (with the disc rotors installed) on the rear wheels and got the following:

Driver's Side Wheel:
In Front of the Tire: 6-3/4"
Behind the Tire: 7"

Passenger Side Wheel:
In Front of the Tire: 6-5/8"
Behind the Tire: 6-3/4"

Your recommendation for a 6.7" back-spacing seems off. This back-spacing would have the wheel touching the leaf spring, no? Please confirm.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Are you sure on the 4.5? GM pattern is 4.75. I could understand if the rear were 4.5 since it is Mopar, but it is very unusal the front is 4.5?

As for measurements, I think another phone call is in order tomorrow.

What your saytying would need a 6" to 6.2 BS (on pass side) which would make a front sapce of 6 to 5.8. Better measure somemore

[ModernMuseum]

I'll take another measurement for the lugs on the front.

I didn't take any measurements on the front tires today, only the rear. The BS that you specified for the fronts should be okay if you specify that for everyone (for camaros) I'm guessing.

I'm just saying in my above post that the minimal distance in the rear from the wheel mounting face to the leaves is 6-5/8", so this distance will be the nearest impact point of the tire on the inside.

[ModernMuseum]

Ok, I re-confirmed. Lug spacing is 4-1/2" center-center on all wheels.

Here's some pics of the front rotors. They're 11" in diameter. I assumed they were stock discs, but they may not be. I'll call tomorrow.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/4877432827_31a3ae29c8_o-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/4878042962_0283ef7468_o-1.jpg

[meinthe73]

I could not find a Pro Touuring wheel in 2 tone black but I got a pick of a Pro Lite in Gloss Black lip and matte black center.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
What wheels are these? thanks