Vintage air... what do most folks do?

[XLexusTech]

Here is the delema... buyig a LS2 Drop out which comes with a compressor.. not a big fan of the lines that come with the Vintage air kit....
What do folks do when they already have a compresor and or plan on changong the lines...

Buy it is pieces? or do thay make a kit with just the controls, box evap condenser and dryer?

[dhutton]

I don't think you can use that GM compressor with Vintage Air. Do a search. You can use the EZ clip hoses from VA and make your own. Frank can put a custom system together for you. If you notch your subframe you should be able to mount the Sanden compressor down low with a VA bracket. Here is some info on the EZ clip hoses:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66131

[jhiphopjunky]

Gearhead Garage was able to use the stock Ls2 AC compressor with my Vintage air Kit.

I think we were able to order the kit with out the compressor Vintage air offers.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The factory variable compressor WILL work for a while, then when it goes it is sensational and kills half the system. The variable compressor are controlled through the factory ECM and are not pressure controlled. With no factory ECM they are in laymens terms running wide open all the time. And avebntually go boom! And yes, your VA warrenty is voided using a factory compressor.

[brans72]

I call Frank and order one. Opps already did that and it is very nice kit!!!! Thanks again Frank!
Brandon

[XLexusTech]

I called VA.... what you do is ask for a 20.00 upgrade for longer hoses... and for the camaro LS conversion they can substitute a new bracket for the traditional SBC one that comes with the kit to fit the LS

[ProdigyCustoms]

The extra lentgh hoses kits are included at no extra cost with our kits. We orderd so many of them VA recently added a part number for the hose kit with 3' extra of -6 and -10 hose.

[BBPanel]

... The variable compressor are controlled through the factory ECM and are not pressure controlled. With no factory ECM they are in laymens terms running wide open all the time. ....
How is the compressor controlled if not by pressure? Isn't there a factory pressure switch communicating with the ECM? Are you saying if using the oem ECM they work fine? Still trying to understand how they work. -Bob

[ProdigyCustoms]

Me too Bob. There is no expansion valve in the factory variable system and the system is controlled through the ECM. Beyond that, we need a A/C scientist!

Bottom line, the 2 systems work different.

[ErikLS2]

How is the compressor controlled if not by pressure? Isn't there a factory pressure switch communicating with the ECM? Are you saying if using the oem ECM they work fine? Still trying to understand how they work. -Bob


Me too Bob. There is no expansion valve in the factory variable system and the system is controlled through the ECM. Beyond that, we need a A/C scientist!

Bottom line, the 2 systems work different.

There is a pressure switch input into the ECM but there are also temperature sensors that input into the Body Control Module, which tells the ECM to turn on the A/C compressor.

There is also an expansion valve listed for a 2005 GTO, there has to be some type of regulator in the system.

The electronics part of it is all based on an algorithm programmed into the BCM. It takes input from all it's sensors and determines the correct output for the variable displacement A/C compressor. You can easily turn the compressor (either the variable or fixed displacement) on with a circuit separate from the ECM but you won't get the idle speed correction to compensate for the extra load the compressor causes.

Kind of the long version of saying without the BCM part of the system, a "standard" type of compressor is best as Frank said. Otherwise, it would kind of be like trying to adapt a drive by wire throttle to a carbureted engine.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Erik, your hired!

[BBPanel]

Sounds like we are getting somewhere now - so physically how big is the BCM and is temp all that's needed? I guess what I'm asking is how difficult would it be to run the BCM for only the a/c? Any other reason to run a BCM?


There is a pressure switch input into the ECM but there are also temperature sensors that input into the Body Control Module, which tells the ECM to turn on the A/C compressor.

There is also an expansion valve listed for a 2005 GTO, there has to be some type of regulator in the system.

The electronics part of it is all based on an algorithm programmed into the BCM. It takes input from all it's sensors and determines the correct output for the variable displacement A/C compressor.....

[ErikLS2]

Sounds like we are getting somewhere now - so physically how big is the BCM and is temp all that's needed? I guess what I'm asking is how difficult would it be to run the BCM for only the a/c? Any other reason to run a BCM?

On a modern car, all the modules talk to one another over a network. Body, engine, cruise, ABS, airbag, etc. I have the BCM for my car (from a 2005 GTO) but am not sure if it will work, though I may try using it for stuff other than A/C. It's about an inch thick and maybe 6" x 8". It needs various inputs for A/C including a cabin temp sensor, ambient (oustide) air temp sensor, solar sensor (measures how much sunlight is coming into car) and a refrigerant pressure sensor.Take enough stuff away from it though and it wont work.

It would be a lot of work to get a BCM incorporated into the car and probably not worth it. I have an ISIS system I'm going to use and a lot of modern type stuff can be done with that. As far as the A/C goes, going to all the trouble of getting a BCM in there really isn't worth it. It's not like you're going to get any colder air than with a Sanden compressor. Plus, the evaporator/expansion valve were not designed to work with a variable compressor that is part of a much more complex automatic climate control system which maintains a pre-set temperature inside the vehicle.

Going to all the work of putting a LSx engine in our cars is very much worth the effort for all the benefits it provides. That same principle doesn't apply in the A/C dept. You can go through all the R&D work of getting the modern A/C system into your car but your still not going to get any colder air our of your vents. Only thing you'd gain is a true "automatic climate control system". Personally, I'd guess at some point Vintage might attempt this with their system, if they're not working on it already.

I'm not to that point in my project yet were I've determined if a BCM can be used for anything else beneficial or for that matter even made to work at all but I plan on having a little fun finding out.

[TnBlkC230WZ]

Dakota digital alreay had automatic climate control for the older VA systems. I'm just waiting for it to appear for the Gen IV systems.

[ssealeycpa]

I'm fairly new to the site but have gotten some great info and this thread is saving me a ton of $ because I was planning on using my factory LS1 compressor (thinking that it would work with VA) and fixing to buy a VA Gen IV evaporator kit. My reasoning is that by looking at the VA LS1 brackets, it appeared that the compressor would be shifted to to close to the frame (1967 Camaro w/ AME frame). Does anyone know how this works w/AME front sub? (Sorry if this has been addressed before). I'm to the point of needing to order the kit for mockup in the dash area.

[dhutton]

I'm fairly new to the site but have gotten some great info and this thread is saving me a ton of $ because I was planning on using my factory LS1 compressor (thinking that it would work with VA) and fixing to buy a VA Gen IV evaporator kit. My reasoning is that by looking at the VA LS1 brackets, it appeared that the compressor would be shifted to to close to the frame (1967 Camaro w/ AME frame). Does anyone know how this works w/AME front sub? (Sorry if this has been addressed before). I'm to the point of needing to order the kit for mockup in the dash area.

Starting at post 44 are some pics etc of how I installed VA with my AME subframe:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/765005-lsi-69-camaro-c-mounting-problems-3.html

[RYU]

I called VA.... what you do is ask for a 20.00 upgrade for longer hoses... and for the camaro LS conversion they can substitute a new bracket for the traditional SBC one that comes with the kit to fit the LS
Can you elaborate more on this one please? Will this LS bracket fit the VA compressor on the passenger side (i'm guessing) and on the top or bottom towards the cross member? Trying to avoid to having to notch the cross member in my 66 A-Body with the F-body accessory drive.

Does it look something like this?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/installedfront341x256-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/installedrear341x256-1.jpg

[dhutton]

Can you elaborate more on this one please? Will this LS bracket fit the VA compressor on the passenger side (i'm guessing) and on the top or bottom towards the cross member? Trying to avoid to having to notch the cross member in my 66 A-Body with the F-body accessory drive.

Does it look something like this?


The VA bracket puts it on the lower passenger's side and lines up with the stock pulley. It does not look anything like the one you posted. You would very likely have to notch the crossmember on an A-Body.

[kochevy67]

I would listen to Frank and use a VA compressor. I have heard horror stories of factory comprssors trashing the system.

[ProdigyCustoms]

No, That bracket you have pictures is a Kwik Performance bracket. We have those also. The Vintage Air bracket is a adapter tha allows you to mount the compressor in the original down low location and move the compressor outward 5/8". it requires a serious frame notch on a factory subframe and in some cases won't work at all depending on which frame mounts and engine mount adapters you use, and where it places the engine

[69 Ghost]

Well guys there seems to be a bit of confusion as to if this will work or not. First off the variable compressors are made to work all the time when on. They function based on the load. They can be converted to a fixed compressor if desired or you are afraid to run it in variable mode which would make it the same as a Sanden. The third issue is yes there is no expansion valve in the system but they use an orifice valve in it's place. Both work on basically the same principle. I have done a bit of research and asked a certified A/C guy and posted on other forums about this. The certified A/C guy said it will definately work. Guys have posted stating that they have run well over a year with no ill effects. Other guys have converted older A/C units and did not change the orifice valve. They said it was warm at idle but at speed it worked fine. All A/C units work on the same principle of a high/low pressure. The compressor is the valve controls the low side. You increase the pressure remove the heat then reverse the procedure to get the cooling.
The pressure valve in the system may also cause a bit of confusion. From what I can tell it is used by the PCM to turn on the high speed fan and it may also be used for the idle speed but I think that is about it. A simple test for the pressure valve and high speed fan is to remove the pin and ground it. You will see that it will turn the fans on high. I have not personally heard from anybody that has had a failure due to a conversion. Docs Blocks makes a adapter to convert GM compressors to your Vintage hose setup. It is about $25.