Fourth gen pro touring?

[louie138]

i have a v6 94 camaro. i know the first thing everyone is gonna say is to not even bother with it and sell it for a ls1, thats not my question. to that i say no because i want a challenge regardless of price range. beside a lot of pro touring cars her are constantly being worked even when they are already running on the street. i am willing to have a work in progress car. anywho my question is, should i sell it (i know i know) and get a 1979 camaro being sold in my city and mod that, or give it a good college try and "pro tour" my 94 camaro? yes i know it be better to get an ls1 but thats a quiter way of thinking in my opinion. i rather get something that will need to be fixed and has room for more

[exwestracer]

Lots of parts avail for both. The V6 could be a challenge depending on what HP you're looking to end up with. Real question is, which car do you really WANT?

[louie138]

tough one. i like both. the 79 is a legit z28. but my 94 has history with me. i want to swap out the engine in my 94 though to an lq9. no lt1/ ls1 here. it would defeat the purpose of the swap cause then thats when i should just by an ls1 car

[exwestracer]

94- better rear suspension. Built by GM in the 90s so quality is suspect, but you know the car...
79- better front suspension (but bad geometry). Near the end of it's production run (1981) so quality is suspect.
Engine will fit in either car....
94 is 15 years newer, but relative condition is your call.

[louie138]

you gave me a lot to think about. i think imma have to sleep on this. starting to lean towards sticking with mine and modding it to perfection. thanx

[CHRIZ28]

Yea, really either is going to involve alot of work to get where you want. I cut my teeth on the 4gen's, so I'm alittle biased on them. A few good select suspension pieces will get it handling good. But, the v6 is the problem there. I say just go with whatever you would like to have as a finished car (realistically). I'm in the process of pt'ing my Firehawk. Go to ls1tech and look around in the suspension section, lots of good info there for 4gens.

Chris

[ArtosDracon]

You can twin turbo that 3.8 and get 500+ hp out of it, it'll be heavier than an aluminum block LSx engine at that point though.

[nickdoe6]

We have a 2001 Z28 Project Car at Camaro Performers magazine that is a ton of fun on the autocross. Very competitive, too.
With a few dollars in suspension upgrades those cars can kick ass.
Look for suspension upgrade articles in the July and September issues.

Nick L.

[louie138]

i actually feel comfortable sticking with my fourth gen after hearing about and research suspension parts. oh and my camaro is the dreaded 3.4l engine that i can do a top end swap with parts from a 3400 car but i see it was pointless. however does anyone know if its true that upgrading the suspension on a 2nd gen still doesnt do any good? thats what i have read

[mpozzi]

You can make a second gen handle pretty good too ...

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[shortrack]

The engine in a 4th gen comes out from the $$$ bottom.....and sooner or later that engine WILL have to come out!......for that reason alone I went with another third gen....

[ArtosDracon]

The 3400/3500 top end swap is not pointless, not by a long shot, it might not be worth the money in the long run, but far from pointless. And any car can be made to handle with enough money, lol, the fourth gen does get a decent head start over it's 30+ year old counterparts.

[subtlez28]

79- better front suspension (but bad geometry).

Why would you say that? You do realize the 4th gens have double a-arm front suspension, not strut type like 3rd gens... right? Rack and pinion steering is a plus also.

4th gen is a great start, easy brake upgrades, strong aftermarket.

That V-6 though... I know you don't want to hear it, but why re-invent the wheel? LS1 4th gens can be so cheap!

Maybe just locate a wrecked LS1 f-body and swap in the front k-member, etc if you have emotional attachment to your car. Putting an LQ9 will be very easy then.

[-The Stig-]

You can make a second gen handle pretty good too ...

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi


Bull.....

;)

[novaderrik]

why are you so opposed to an LT1/Ls1 swap? there is a reason they are so popular- they work.
i'd find a wrecked similar year Z28 and swap everything over.

[louie138]

its not that im against the engine or car, its just that it makes it pointless in swapping versus just buying one with it in it. in that case i would rather get a different engine (lq4, lq9, ls2 or if i get lucky ls3). and as for the whole engine coming out of the bottom issue with these cars, its a real bad boner kill. regardless fourth gen cars look good.

[CHRIZ28]

The engine in a 4th gen comes out from the $$$ bottom.....and sooner or later that engine WILL have to come out!......for that reason alone I went with another third gen....


SOOOOO much easier than it sounds. I've done several, twice in the firehawk, and about 4 times in my old '00 Z28. The very first time we pulled it, we pulled the heads off the engine to get it out the top... The k-member drops in no time, and if you've done one before, all the hidden plug-ins come loose in a few. I'll be dropping it all out of the Firehawk again to swap the trans in a couple weeks.

Chris

[louie138]

so i guess the question comes down to this, since everyone has their opinion id like to hear them. which would you rather mod and see be a pro touring. late 2nd gen camaro, iroc camaro, or lt1 style camaro (i like the front end better than the ls1 version)? and why would you versus the others

[louie138]

oh and ps, lets say the budget was unlimited just to keep this interesting:headbang:

[Rybar]

Why don't you tell us your plans for the car and budget to help us understand.

If the 2nd gen requires body and paint it will end up costing you alot more than the 4th gen to modify.

I would think suspension wise the 4th gen would be a better starting point.

[louie138]

i would want something with easy mods, hassle free engine swap, variety of upgrades, and just something that you can drive around and not have it be a trailer queen

[796spdbu]

As on owner of both gens menchented here,I will say I had a blast with my 95' at Road America event. My 95 is an lt1 car. I dig it. My 80' is a project.

Marry Pozzi has a well balanced 2nd gen that has very well balanced aftermarket parts. Its seems simple and it runs hard.That says something about budget and form.

In my 4th gen I have qa-1 coilovers front,PA tube k memeber,tube upper lower front control arms,Global West rear lower control arms,hotchkis rear double adj rear panhard bar. Soon ill be swapping out my self made torq arm and hotchkis rear bar for Global Wests pieces.

I say if you have the car,do the suspension and learn to drive with what power you have. Then when time and money allow,do an engine swap of your chioce.

Im not sure this helps but its my take on your question

Greg

[louie138]

you bring in a good point. fourth gens are covered with options for upgrades in every area of the car. plus i wont face a huge rust problem.

[796spdbu]

Exactly! I did a corvette c-6 13" rotor/caliper swap with a freinds cnc'd brackets and it was quite a differnce,I also did the 12" ls-1 rear swap. Once you get the suspension dialed in you can focus on driving.Then swap to v-8 power and go from there. Call Doug at Global West. He is a very knowledgable guy. A friend recomenned that I talk to him about my current set up and he straightened me out and was very easy to talk to. I would recomend calling him first and discuss what you have as an idea and he can work with you.

Greg

[ArtosDracon]

Fourth Gen is going to be easier and cheaper to get to modest performance goals, but it won't look as good doing it.

[louie138]

Exactly! I did a corvette c-6 13" rotor/caliper swap with a freinds cnc'd brackets and it was quite a differnce,I also did the 12" ls-1 rear swap. Once you get the suspension dialed in you can focus on driving.Then swap to v-8 power and go from there. Call Doug at Global West. He is a very knowledgable guy. A friend recomenned that I talk to him about my current set up and he straightened me out and was very easy to talk to. I would recomend calling him first and discuss what you have as an idea and he can work with you.

Greg
send me this guys info i wanna see what i can do to get this show on the road.

i am sure we can all agree at some point that the old car are awesome and all but they dont compare to the new tech of newish one.

[JJEH]

You can twin turbo that 3.8...

That's what i thought... :razz:

[796spdbu]

My thoughts..turbo anything doesnt seem like a good idea on a short auto cross track as boost will come on when its not needed. Now I know I mabe flamed for this but boost comes with RPM and constent RPM is somewhat short lived on the auto cross. It would seem to me as soon as the RPM comes up the boost with make the car very unpredicable. My reason for this thought comes after watching a certain twin turbo small block get all kinds of outshape at our event at El Toro earlier this year,and that was a big auto cross as compared to Good Guys events.

Just google Global West and you should find a contact number for them. Ill try to get the info for you but incase it takes me a day or so,you can do it that way. Im also pretty sure they are a sponsor so look to your right and you may find them.

[79PonchoUK]

You can get any car to handle well.

Second gens are no different.

All I've done with mine is fit hotchkis springs and shocks, poly bushes and increased front camber and caster....it transformed the car and it's more than a match for my quattro in the dry.

Remember, 2nd gens were about on par with Sierra Cosworths as standard. They're not that bad out of the box....over here, the biggest problem is people fit crap shocks to them, which they're especially sensitive to considering how inboard the springs/shocks are.

I do like 4th gen cars though. Naturally it's even better than the 2nd gen as standard...I'd not bother with a V6 if the V8 was an easy option...trying to get power out of a small engine is a little pointless even if you have a romantic ideal about it. You'll not add any weight or fuel consumption with fitting an alloy V8...


Personally, I'd say sell the V6 for a V8. The V8 will have better spring rates, better ARBs, etc...It's not just the engine you're changing.

[shortrack]

SOOOOO much easier than it sounds. I've done several, twice in the firehawk, and about 4 times in my old '00 Z28. The very first time we pulled it, we pulled the heads off the engine to get it out the top... The k-member drops in no time, and if you've done one before, all the hidden plug-ins come loose in a few. I'll be dropping it all out of the Firehawk again to swap the trans in a couple weeks.

Chris

so you have a 2 post lift?

[Neil B]

so you have a 2 post lift?

Just as a point of interest, I've seen an 4th Gen engine swap done at the track. I remember Powell Motorsports swapping the motor in their Motorola Cup Firebird in the paddock at Road Altanta. The motor came out the bottom and they had the front jacked so high it looked like a funny car with the body up. I wish I had a picture.

[srh3trinity]

I always wondered if a Grand Prix GTP supercharger would fit in a fourth gen on top of the 3800. You would probably run into a problem with firewall clearance at the cowl. That could be done with junk yard parts and could really change the game up on a v6 car.

[louie138]

thats one of the boner kills about the fourth gens, the cowl issue. yeah gm made the car look sleek but they made engine work harder. but damn they have the most options when it comes to body styling, engine mods, etc. every other gen has some minimal options in those fields minus the 5th gen. regardless each gen has their pluses and minuses

[ArtosDracon]

I always wondered if a Grand Prix GTP supercharger would fit in a fourth gen on top of the 3800. You would probably run into a problem with firewall clearance at the cowl. That could be done with junk yard parts and could really change the game up on a v6 car.

The throttle body would be in the firewall, which might not be a bad thing for a race car, but could be a real PITA on a stock dash car.

[Cannon]

On the 94 camaro...

LS7/T56
Z06 Brakes/Wheels
Nitto NT05 tires
Strano suspension
Subframe connecters(pick any welded on)
DONE - go destroy Ferraris

[CHRIZ28]

so you have a 2 post lift?

Nope, just use a hoist to lift the front of the car up, then roll the k-member/tranny out from under it. A lift would be nice though!! Lol. The cowl issue does suck. Working on these motors is a pain in the... well.. arms. haha. That's the main reason I pulled the a/c and heater out of the old Z28. Just made it TONS easier to put plugs in. I think pt'd 2nd gens look awesome though. Just pick one and get to work! Haha

Chris

[ChrisRZ28]

Strano knows how to make a 4th Gen fly. Many time autocross champ. You will be money ahead with his stuff. Stay away from overpriced Hotchkis and Global West.

[Hotchkis]

i have a v6 94 camaro. i know the first thing everyone is gonna say is to not even bother with it and sell it for a ls1, thats not my question. to that i say no because i want a challenge regardless of price range. beside a lot of pro touring cars her are constantly being worked even when they are already running on the street. i am willing to have a work in progress car. anywho my question is, should i sell it (i know i know) and get a 1979 camaro being sold in my city and mod that, or give it a good college try and "pro tour" my 94 camaro? yes i know it be better to get an ls1 but thats a quiter way of thinking in my opinion. i rather get something that will need to be fixed and has room for more

Either option is a solid "dare to be different" type ride and we salute that wholeheartedly. Both the late 2nd gen and the early 4th gen are solid platforms that can be stellar performers with just a little work. Subframe connectors (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Search_Keyword=subframe+connectors&SubmitForm=Search) are a good way to go on both, as are sway bars (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Search_Keyword=sway+bars&SubmitForm=Search), sport springs (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Make=7&Model=188&SubmitForm=Search) and good performance shocks. Coil-overs aren't really necessary on either car, particularly if you're on a budget. The tough part about a V6 is the lack of performance parts for the engine, but a decent cat-back and a cold air intake if you can make one would probably help too. Add an SS hood and some cool wheels and you'll have a killer ride. Also, many people forget that one of the fastest factory F-bodies ever built was a V6: the 1989 Turbo Trans Am. So if anyone gives you grief about a V6 Pro-Touring car, tell 'em that it has a performance heritage.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/0610_hppp_01z1989_pontiac_trans_amfull-1.jpg

[louie138]

Either option is a solid "dare to be different" type ride and we salute that wholeheartedly. Both the late 2nd gen and the early 4th gen are solid platforms that can be stellar performers with just a little work. Subframe connectors (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Search_Keyword=subframe+connectors&SubmitForm=Search) are a good way to go on both, as are sway bars (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Search_Keyword=sway+bars&SubmitForm=Search), sport springs (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Make=7&Model=188&SubmitForm=Search) and good performance shocks. Coil-overs aren't really necessary on either car, particularly if you're on a budget. The tough part about a V6 is the lack of performance parts for the engine, but a decent cat-back and a cold air intake if you can make one would probably help too. Add an SS hood and some cool wheels and you'll have a killer ride. Also, many people forget that one of the fastest factory F-bodies ever built was a V6: the 1989 Turbo Trans Am. So if anyone gives you grief about a V6 Pro-Touring car, tell 'em that it has a performance heritage.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/0610_hppp_01z1989_pontiac_trans_amfull-1.jpg

if the oppertunity for a turbo or supercharged 3.8l v6 engine came up i would jump on that. sadly i have 3.4l engine that can be worked on and all but i dont see it meeting my standards

[subtlez28]

i would want something with easy mods, hassle free engine swap, variety of upgrades, and just something that you can drive around and not have it be a trailer queen

This really screams LS1 F-body to me... but I know you are resisting that idea. You could always swap on the older 4th gen nose. Or again, buy a wrecked 98-02 and swap in the k-member and power-train to your current ride.

As much as I like 2nd gens, starting w a newer (and hopefully rust free) 4th gen will make you life much easier and cheaper.

[louie138]

totally agree.

[bobbaganoosh]

Exactly! I did a corvette c-6 13" rotor/caliper swap with a freinds cnc'd brackets and it was quite a differnce,I also did the 12" ls-1 rear swap. Once you get the suspension dialed in you can focus on driving.Then swap to v-8 power and go from there. Call Doug at Global West. He is a very knowledgable guy. A friend recomenned that I talk to him about my current set up and he straightened me out and was very easy to talk to. I would recomend calling him first and discuss what you have as an idea and he can work with you.

Greg

If the LS1 spindles are swapped onto the LT1 cars, you can use the CTS-V's Brembo's with 14" C6 Z06 rotors. It's practically a bolt on with the exception of custom made brake lines. It can be done for about $500. I have the parts & will be doing the swap soon on my '98.

[796spdbu]

Aaron,
I read on frrax.com about that swap and followed it up on ls1tech.com. After much deliberation with fellow racers,it seemed 13" was the way to go for me. Just my opinion, I know alot of guys run the 14" stuff.