have you heard of this subframe

[70ptta]

i found this on a local site. do you think it is any good

custom made tube chassis designed to use modern aluminum Corvette C4 and C5 suspension, road racing geometry, tig welded, stress relieved, heat treated, made to order for any muscle car, or any car or truck, in 1020 round steel, not 1010 square tubing and mig welded like everyone else....the ultimate frame, your options include: custom coil over AFCO and QA1 shocks, 3 piece sway bars, rack and pinion steering, BAER or Wilwood or any custom brake system..... we use Mercedes Benz road racing engineering software to handle like a Ferrari or any exotic, not a hyped musclecar, save minimum 200+ pounds of weight of your front end, more if we do a full lenght frame....call for more info and specs....707-324-9120 or go to Round88.com

[68BNUT]

you got a link beside the one at the bottom? I couldnt find anything about a front subframe?

[MrQuick]

I have, I havent seen the frame in person but word has it he bought a frame from Due, built a jig and is using tube steel instead of square. He sells on ebay and I asked some questions I never got answers. He's in the Santa Rosa/Petaluma Ca area.

[70ptta]

the only link i found was that one at the bottom. let us know if he gets back to you.

[ryans67deuce]

Here's a 1st gen F-body frame he has for sale on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7966016735&category=6763

There a certainly characteristics similar to Wayne's products. The motor mounts and brackets for the control arms are identical....

Ryan

[68BNUT]

Does anybody sell a subframe thats bare and you can use the suspension parts from your camaro on them?? Ive already got a pretty penny wrapped up in aftermarket suspensions stuff already??

[dennis68]

custom made tube chassis designed to use modern aluminum Corvette C4 and C5 suspension, road racing geometry,

we use Mercedes Benz road racing engineering software to handle like a Ferrari or any exotic, not a hyped musclecar
Really, road racing geometry huh? I would like to a see a print out of the "road racing geometry" they use.

"Handle like a Ferrari or any exotic, not a hyped musclecar"....I've seen some musclecars flat out spank the "exotics".

[daryn67]

These are the specs they gave me when i emailed them. Reply was very fast and they at least talk like they know their stuff.


Daryn





with the first generation C4 we get
Bump:
@1" .094 degrees
@2" .033 degrees
@3" .204 degrees

Camber gain
@1" -.672 degrees
@2" -1.571 degrees
@3" -2.729 degrees

with the second generation C4 we get

Bump:
@1" .018 degrees
@2" .074 degrees
@3" .178 degrees

Camber gain
@1" -1.096 degrees
@2" -2.288 degrees
@3" -3.596 degrees

[dennis68]

There are a WHOLE bunch of other MUCH more important numbers than camber gain in bump.

[zbugger]

Hey Dennis, care to email them yourself? I think it would be a good test if you asked them some questions.....

[dennis68]

email sent.

[dennis68]

I got a reply this morning. It is kind of what I expected, his numbers don't make any sense....maybe "fabricated" numbers. Here is the email I got.

I don't have too much time right now, too many things being done at once, it will take me a couple of days to get you more specs on one of our usual builds....I have a couple of the pages of the data for the '69 Firebird we're finishing right now...... has bump steer: @1" .095 degrees @2" .035 and at 3" .201 degrees..... scrub radius @1" -.069" @2" -.18" and at 3" -.33" A couple things jump out right away; I had asked for things like FRCH, and RC migration numbers. Those are pretty important on a scratch built chassis, you would think he would know them off them top of his head. The bump steer results look strange; it toes in, then out, then in again...and that last inch of bump has a pretty good jump. I am also very curious how he came up with SR numbers like that; I never specified what wheel offset was to be used nor did he, acording to his numbers this subframe has better SR than a C6.

I would be very nervous about paying 3K for this subframe.

[Salt Racer]

Bumpsteer is expressed in toe angle. To convert it into inches...

Sine (angle) * tire diameter = toe change in inches per side.


And clearly he is mixing up scrub radius and side scrub.

I will let you be the judge.

I'll have to make a comment on one thing. Why does this guy even bother heat treating low-carbon steel?

[round88]

I build chassis' for people that want to go fast, or want great handling. There are many great chassis builders to choose from, the difference is in the philosophy. I tried the different chassis choices out there, and I found them lacking to my philosophy or taste.
I grew up in a place with no speed limits. We street road raced, no holds barred, no stopping for nothing, even hit 170 mph within city limits. Street road racing is like Rally Racing, abrupt changes, unforseen obstacles, always on a controlled slide....you need a car that is forgiving and flickable like a Go Kart, to be able to go very fast, and not bite it.....that's why an old Euro BMW I had, beats every other Exotic and super car on this mountain road that I use to test cars, by over 3 minutes.
The Corvettes, Vipers, Camaros, Mustangs....with twice or triple the power, twice the tire and brake size, get beaten...huge tires, brakes and power has nothing to do with going real fast, it's that flickable easy to correct and slide kind of handling, like an M3, that makes it faster, maybe not on a track, but so on an uneven winding mountain road...
That's the philosophy I build into my chassis. I only supply chassis to people I think will use them and enjoy them the right way. My software allows me to be very precise. If you don't agree with my philosophy, if you rather have the 'Vette or Viper on-rails type of handling, that gets nervous and psycho at the edge of traction, so it's all or nothing...my chassis' are not for you. If you want to go down a mountain road faster that you ever thought possible, with the car in a subdued ballet of motion, flicking smoothly between corners, then my chassis' are for you....the bump steer, scrub radius, roll centers, camber gains, etc, etc... are all a compromise, and my software optimizes every aspect of it, within the inherent design of the suspension parts chosen, like the C4 parts i like to use....if you think a minus hundreth of this or that, is what determines a better handling car and grip, by all means buy their chassis, I build huge Go Karts that put a smile on your face, not your nuts as your bow tie....sincerely....Round88.com

[round88]

we don't treat low carbon steel....we normalize or "hammer" the welds...heat treating is a word used for laymen that don't understand how you overcome the inherent weakness created by welding, and why they break there....welds become the consistency of cast iron inside, and you have to correct the grain structure to strengthen it......for those of you interested in how far we go with our stuff....

[Piet]

I build chassis' for people that want to go fast, or want great handling. There are many great chassis builders to choose from, the difference is in the philosophy. I tried the different chassis choices out there, and I found them lacking to my philosophy or taste.
Huh???? Are you the guy selling the frames on eBay?


I grew up in a place with no speed limits. We street road raced, no holds barred, no stopping for nothing, even hit 170 mph within city limits. Street road racing is like Rally Racing, abrupt changes, unforseen obstacles
Street Racing is for idiots! Those unforseen obstacles might be my kids going to the playground!


That's the philosophy I build into my chassis..... My software allows me to be very precise.....the bump steer, scrub radius, roll centers, camber gains, etc, etc... are all a compromise, and my software optimizes every aspect of it
Those are some big claims!


if you think a minus hundreth of this or that, is what determines a better handling car and grip, by all means buy their chassis, I thought you said "My software allows me to be very precise"

Now, I don't wan't to get off on the wrong foot when this is your first post... but you seemed to have swaggered in and made some big claims, no numbers, no proof. Care to tells us a bit about yourself? What's your background?

[dennis68]

I guess our only reservation is that either you don't seem to understand the analysis of "your software" (what software are you using BTW) or you just have a very difficult time explaining what you mean.

Isn't it a bit unscientific to base your claims off of stop watched times down a public roadway? That is like saying my truck runs 11's because I count to eleven in the time it takes my trip odometer to read between .2 and .3.


..that's why an old Euro BMW I had, beats every other Exotic and super car on this mountain road that I use to test cars, You have got to mad to think anyone here would believe that your old BMW would spank a Viper on any road, anywhere. (Yes, I have actually driven several of them).


My software allows me to be very precise Again, what software?


....the bump steer, scrub radius, roll centers, camber gains, etc, etc... are all a compromise Of course they are, but you seem to think they really don't matter. Throwing some welds on a tube sub frame and bolting up some C4 arms and spindles does not make a road course terror (well it might be a terror as you hang on for dear life). This is definitely not he place to boast about how great your product while bringing no tech and in fact knocking that tech and research has any validity.

[TitoJones]

heat treating is a word used for laymen that don't understand how you overcome the inherent weakness created by welding, and why they break there....

I'll stop you right there, and let you know that there are a 'few' engineers on this board, including suspension designing ones. I *think* you just took a crack at one of the smartest guys on the board with this comment.

Not a real bright start to becoming a member here.


I only supply chassis to people I think will use them and enjoy them the right way.

I've always found Ebay to be a real great tool for finding 'honest' and 'good hearted' people too. It's all in the screen name- A guy with DrivesFasterThanYou as his Ebay name will surely 'use and enjoy' this subframe more than say a guy with a sign in name like KnowsHowSuspensionWorks ever could.
:bsjerk:

Tyler

[MrQuick]

Ok lets see it go. Down for a test drive? Im local and I'll bring my own helmet and Hanns device. I wanna flick around.

[yody]

Yes me and mr.quick are willing to come and drive your ole BMW 170mph in front of your house

[zbugger]

Hey, don't forget me!!!! I'll gladly test that stuff out for you. Should be fun!!!

[MrQuick]

you get your helmet yet?

[zbugger]

My skull is thick enough. Who needs a helmet?

[vanzuuk1]

We have all driven too fast on a public road at one time in our lives, but when someone asks you for some specs on a product and your response is "i've driven 170 on city streets" you lose all credibility. Save the philosophy stuff for another site.

[derekf]

I think the point has been made, there's no point in rehashing it over and over.

At this point, probably best to just wait for Mr. Round88 to respond to the actual questions that have been asked - he'll either step up with tech, or he won't.

[Salt Racer]

we don't treat low carbon steel....we normalize or "hammer" the welds...heat treating is a word used for laymen that don't understand how you overcome the inherent weakness created by welding....

Annealing or Normalizing is valid. Even this "layman" can understand that. This is what I was refering to.

Taken directly from your E-bay page...

...1020 DOM steel, tig welded, stress relieved and heat treated....


Every suspension engineer has different way (or "philosophy" if you prefer) of designing things, but I've never seen anyone who intentionally builds in non-linear bumpsteer curve especially when he claims his chassis is "predictable". Even this layman knows how to fix it in sleep.

But whatever. Talk is cheap. Have your R&D mule tested by the third party. If it consistently pulls better lap times than exotic cars w/o cheating (no slicks, no gutted interior, identical power/weight ratio, etc), then I'll believe what you say.

BTW, street racing is for idiots who don't have guts to run on real race tracks.

I am done in this thread, but I fully expect him to back up his claims with actual tech for others' sake.

A cyber layman

[Travis B]

Yes me and mr.quick are willing to come and drive your ole BMW 170mph in front of your house

This is funny!



So did anyone ever get an answer out of the oversized go cart guy!

[Mean 69]

Clearly, this guy has developed his own intellectual property in terms of the precise software package. I mean, the ones out there use the classical equations to determine things like roll center, swing arm lengths, etc, based upon the literature (Milliken, Adam's, Van Valkenberg, Olley, Staniforth and so many others, I have all of these and have never found a disagreement). So I think clearly that we are dealing with one of the true and rare genuises of the earth, much like Galileo, Newton, Einstein, etc. These guys were so smart, that the mathematics to describe solutions to their problems didn't exist, so they invented their own (well, at least in the form of Newton who developed the Calculus, Einstein had a lot of help in developing the math for Quantum Mechanics). Anyway, I think you get my point. Super duper stuff inside there, clearly.

Flicking a full sized car around like a go kart is a bit of a wish, my friend. There is a very important distinction between the two, one, the kart has tires that ARE the suspension, two the car has SUSPENSION that is the suspension (okay that sounded a bit funny). Of course, you could likely just remove all of the suspension gear in a car, but darn, the last time I looked there was this silly limiting factor to ultimate traction, beyond the suspension, called TIRES. A kart tire can create a couple g's of grip, easily. A car tire cannot. A typical GT1 car can probably sustain in the 1.7-ish range, depending upon the tire compound. Are you running Hoosier slicks on the car? I doubt it. Hey, we could just put Michael Schumacher's tires on the car! Yeah, that's it, but darn, there's that suspension thing all over again. F1 cars barely have any, because they rely on the tires, and buttloads of aero downforce. Gosh, they're kind of expensive too, you basically can't get a set unless you own an F1 team, and then they don't even let you keep them after they've worn! Shoot, now what?

Clearly though, none of this applies to your obvious genious. It would appear that you have discovered a way to cheat physical laws, all within your computer program. That is really just too cool. But darn, having obtained my degree in Physics, well, call me just a litte skeptical. See, one of the things I learned is that FACTS tell the story, and FACTS can almost always, in a physical problem, be described as EQUATIONS and DATA. If you'd like to share some of this information with us, if your design can be described in such terms, well, that'd be great, we'd love to hear what you have to say. Otherwise, I think you should stick to E-bay, and sell parts to people you have cornered through etherial claims that can't be backed up.

Lastly, and please forgive me if English is a second language, but can you please make an attempt to write properly, punctuation, etc? Besides being hard to read, well, writing as you did previously doesn't instill a lot of confidence in your products, frankly.

Kind Regards,
Mark

[MuscleRodz]

My only comment is if this was Corner Carvers, he would already be banned.

Mike

[vanzuuk1]

Remind me never to talk @#$% on this site!

[dennis68]

Remind me never to talk @#$% on this site!
Chew 'em up and spit 'em out. Try talking ***** over at CC.com.

[vanzuuk1]

CC.com. doesn't sound like a barrel of laughs.

[round88]

...a story I know that will say a lot about the people in this page:
an old man was walking down the road with a donkey, and saw a small kid on the side of the road, asked him if he wanted a ride, the kid agreed and got on the donkey....as they passed the first town, the people said: look at that kid making that old man walk, so the old man got on the donkey and the kid got down.....through the next town the people said: look at that old man making that young kid walk, so the old man got on the donkey also....as they passed the next town, peolpe said: look at those two people abusing that poor donkey.....so they both got off the donkey and as they went past the next town, the people said: look at those couple of idiots, walking instead of riding the donkey!
...the moral to that story is like the postings on this page.....I will waste my time once, as a a favor to a client, to paint a clearer picture: I'm older now, maybe a little wiser, back then I didn't think of kids or dogs or cars in the way, and God loved me so much I never hit one.... so no, you cannot go that fast as we did in the past, even in the place I grew up, it's a different world now....we got stopped running 20 red lights in Boston in the late 70's doing like 100 and we bailed the driver out with $20 and the ticket was $700....what do you think would happen today?....I was in my 30s the general manager of a Ferrari/BMW/Lamborghini/Porsche dealership and drove hard most of them.... my main welder and fabricator build race and formula cars for 20 years.... my father founded one of the japanese car companies and distributed GM products in my country.... I was in diapers in an assembly plant before I could walk.....the fastest street drag racer i ever saw was a 2200cc VW bug with a single seat in the back and it took hundreds of dollars every night from Roller cammed Camaros, Vettes, Cudas, etc, does that mean that the VW is faster, no, it means that for that particular application it was better.... everything has all kinds of solutions and angles to look at, and to seat and bs and benchrace and spew poison all you want alters or means nothing.....my software is my business....a stopwatch from stop sign to stop sign late at night on a winding country road is to me the best indicator of how fast a car is, you want to measure G forces, angles, quarter miles, etc, etc....my chassis are not for you...I got to the formula I use to build my cars by my life experience, and how I think a car should handle, I want an M3, Renault 5 Turbo 2 (watch the street race in James Bond's Never Say Never Again with the R5 Turbo 2), kind of feel to my chassis', and I think that's what's fast down a winding road....don't agree, great, there's countless chassis builders around that probably build what you want, and have the name recognition you want.....if you like my philosophy, contact us....otherwise go back to the spit ball game played here.....regards....Round88

[Mean 69]

No! Don't leave, please share the SPECIFICS of your philosophy here. The problem that your post had was that there was NOTHING in there to state what approach you took, why, where you were willing to make compromises, etc. As bad as you might have taken the some of the responses, folks in here are eager to learn. But, once again, you neglect to share any specific details, so the folks in here, myself included, are going to be very quick to chalk you up as a total fraud. Frankly, the only data supplied is so absurd as to be incomprehensible, unless you can explain WHY you did it that way, 'cause I(we) just don't get it. Is your name Cory Shaw, by chance?

We all want great handling cars, but we are here to learn from each other, critically look at things, and hopefully learn from, and teach each other. When you come in basically stating that your design is better, well, if you are not willing to back it up, you are not going to be looked at favorably, rather, it will probably do you more harm to even reply.

You have a very diverse audience here. Lots of folks building the first car ever and wanting input, to others who have been building cars that handle for decades, to still others who use technology, lessons learned from other applications, etc, to design, engineer, and build their own setups. For the less experieinced, you can get away with the vague posts, but not for me, or many others. So either bring on the TECHNICAL aspects of your design, philosophy, manufacture, or go back to E-bay. Or go ride your donkey (can you make it handle like a kart too?).

Mark

[Mean 69]

Oh, darn. I had to go and actually look at your frame, didn't need to previously because of your earlier responses. One question, an easy one that I don't need a computer to tell the answer to. Does the wheel rate rise, or fall, or stay the same in bump/roll? Gosh, that looks just like Wayne's unit, 'cept in round tube, and I can virtually guarantee that it is not as stiff as you broadcast. It ain't the type of tube, friend, it is the design.

Katz, I am afraid you are out of luck with regard to the independent test, well, at least as far as the Euro BMW that outhandles every car ever brought to North America. It looks as if it suffered a terrible accident, but hey! Look at the bright side! It can be used as an advertising approach for an adult website address!!!! How cool is that!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11153&item=5736943127

Keeps getting better.
M

[baz67]

Bring the tech and you may be accepted. Stay with the clever quips and you will be regected. How is that for some philosophy.

[wally8]

Wow! I'm sure there are some people you could sell that horse **** to but you can see how far it's getting you here.

Bring the tech or go home. A brief biography is no substitute for facts.

As Mark said, you must be some sort of uber genius if you've suddenly discovered something radically new in the realm of SLA suspensions. You'd really have to be so to have come up with something that many of us here couldn't understand. I make my living by understanding what most others don't and so do a lot of other guys here.

This is a good lesson for other would be vendors as well. Better be prepared to discuss some specifics or you may not like what you get in return.


Wally

[dennis68]

my software is my business...Round88
For the love of all that is fast and pulls over a "g" on the skid....what the hell software are you using that will allow a bump steer curve of in a little, out a little, in a whole bunch? That would make for one hell of a ride on the types of roads you claim to build chassis for.
@1" .094 degrees
@2" .033 degrees
@3" .204 degrees

I hope that is total bump and not per side as it is expressed by most software. .408 total at 3" of bump would be a handful at the 150+MPH speeds you claim to drive at.

[Joe_Rocket]

I think you guys gave this guy too much grief.

Yody says, "Yes me and mr.quick are willing to come and drive your ole BMW 170mph in front of your house"

In his story, he mentions doing 170 and later mentions his BMW being faster in the mountain road that whatever else was there racing with him. No where did he say his BMW does 170. You took two different parts of the story and made it one.

Tyler says, "I'll stop you right there, and let you know that there are a 'few' engineers on this board, including suspension designing ones. I *think* you just took a crack at one of the smartest guys on the board with this comment. Not a real bright start to becoming a member here."

I don't think he took a crack at anyone, Tyler. I think he was only explaining his use of wording.

You guys just tore this guy up. His numbers may not make sense, but now, I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of this. And, he had something that seemed interesting enough to take a look at.

He made some claims in story fashion back to some good old days with a bit of boasting and bragging. I think some of you read into it a little too literally. Some of us are engineers and looking for concrete statements and proof. The rest of us don't speak the same way. But there is no need to roast the guy.

I don't think he said anything offensive. Someone else mentioned his product, and I think his story was his way of trying to introduce himself. Why not be polite and welcome him and question his numbers instead of bashing and trying to question and put him down.

You guys got kind of a nice brotherhood going here. I enjoy being part of it, but we're all here from different backgrounds with knowledge in different areas. Some of us talk apples and some talk oranges.

The thing is, the guy built something. It sure looked nice in the pics, and it's more than I am capable of building at this point. I think we blew the opportunity to learn more about this one.

You can be polite, make friends, and decide whether they are worth being friends with. But, tear them up before you really know anything about them, and you've learned and gained nothing.

[vanzuuk1]

I can see your point joe rocket but he did kind of lay on the b.s. in his answers.

I will admit I am not a suspension engineer but if someone asked me for numbers on a subframe that I had built I would not go into philosophy and say that the car that gets down a mountain road first has the best suspension.

I admit to doing some really risky things on public roads but I have the sense not to brag about it here.

You are right about giving people a chance , its a little too easy to gang up and shred someone. Sometimes I am waiting to get jumped on for an error in my comments.

[nancejd]

I don't know, won't a car that gets down the mountain road first, by defintion be the quickest? Might not be every time. It's like saying that the car that won the race was first. I agree that we could have been a little more polite about this whole thing, but to post a whole bunch of claims that are not backed up in any way, it wears on my patience, and I don't know anything, I can only imagine what's it like for someone who really is an expert.

[dennis68]

The thing is, the guy built something. It sure looked nice in the pics, and it's more than I am capable of building at this point. I think we blew the opportunity to learn more about this one.
I think the point you are missing Joe is that anyone is who is scratch building suspension components and KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING doesn't have to think about the numbers his chassis design produces, he spend dozens of hours studying the design before scratching a single arc, he knows them off the top his head.

He has been given several opportunity's to put a few numbers together, the 2 results he has produced so far are either made up or he doesn't have clue what he doing because he built non-linear bump steer in on purpose..that is not a compromise, it's being ignorant.

Most of the guys giving him a bad time already know he is just buger welding a W.D. copy together and didn't spend anytime researching the geometry nor does he have a clue as to what it 's "compromises" are.

I am more than willing to shut up and listen if he wants to talk about the tech, I DO NOT want to hear another long winded story about some damn donkey that doesn't end with "and here are the results of analysis using xyz software, I compromised this and that for these reasons". I think he a fraud and fake and wish there was a way to warn potential e-bay buyers from getting a very untested product.

maybe I can start selling stuff on ebay...wait I just put my ad together. Available now for the first time ever, professionally built sub frame. It has been extensively tested and all welds have been heat cycled and burnished, we only use the best T6 1040 DOM for our chassis. All welds are deburred to induce stress risers and ensure a contigous uniformity to the spectrum. You won't find a better mountain racer, it's beat the very finest F1 cars in the world. Through our custom software we have been able to defy the laws of physics and build a chassis that will rival any thing like it while looking a 6 year old designed on paper(old family secret). All stock used has been fully annealed at over 40000 degrees, all welds ultra sonic checked for straightness and true, design specs tested by the ASE, scientifically proven by the ABC, and proven to be biokinetically sound. Mario Andrei himself has inspected this chassis and is considering replacing his current F1 car with one of mine.

[vanzuuk1]

Nance I edited my post I should have said the car that gets down a mountain road first may not have the best suspension, just a better driver or a driver willing to take bigger chances. Put a rally driver in anything and he'll beat a street driver in a better car. Thats what I was getting at.
The donkey analogy was a little weak.

[Steve Chryssos]

Chew 'em up and spit 'em out. Try talking ***** over at CC.com.

Chew 'em up and spit 'em out? Just exactly who do you think you are Denny? That doesn't play over here. This ain't C-C.com. If you're not getting your fill over at C-C.com, here's another hardcore forum for guys just like you:

http://www.superdupersuspensionexperts.com (http://erectile-dysfunction.open-forum.info/)

I knew you when, Denny. I knew you when. Not 10 months ago, you were asking some pretty basic questions about suspension theory, and now you act like some gatekeeper know it all, rousting anyone who asks a stupid question.
Your education will not be complete until you have applied the theory that you so eagerly crave--and have applied it many times over. From there, your thesis will be SEAT TIME--and lots of it. Step up.
Even then, you have no right to preach, condescend, or otherwise demoralize anyone else on this site. This is a hot rod site. Elco’s and other 35 year old cars make mediocre race cars at best. We’re hot rodders. That’s why you chose an Elco and I chose a Camaro. We’re here to upgrade our old clunkers to various extremes—emphasis on the word various. Anyone with a half a brain would start with a better platform if winning races were the sole goal. And at the core of hot rodding is comraderie—not FVSA, SVSA or any other individual parameter. It’s all about personal expression.
That goes for anyone else who’s using this topic in particular or the forum in general as a platform to bolster their low self-esteem. I’ll see to it that this topic gets handed back to people who are happy just to bolt on that next part that they’ve saved up for all month—It’s going back the way it used to be. Back when “ask a stupid question” was met with a patient, courteous response. Chew 'em up? Spit em out? No freakin way. Not in this club. Step off.

P.s: To the guy who made the original post. I would not recommend this subframe. If for no other reason, the forward round tube frame members look sub-standard. The fabricator chose this approach because small diameter round tube is so easy to bend. He may lack the ability (or know-how) to spec mandrel bent square tube frame members, so he substituted round tube. Actually, all he needs to do is call up Art Morrison and order the mandrel bent frame members to spec--Anybody can. That’s what Wayne Due does. It’s the right approach. Go with the Wayne Due clip.

[vanzuuk1]

was the chew-em up comment directed at me? what the hell did I do?

where is the love?

steve I think we are gonna get rained out tommorow, but if not I will call you en route. If its raining I'll watch Monaco gp on speed.

[MrQuick]

word up Steve, but you know the ameture pretending to teach can be more dangerous than the novice with the drive to learn. I have no idea where that applys but we all can learn without attacking each other, thats why we are here and not at CC. Round88 has an open invitation to bring his product to the track day in July. Lets see it.

[Mean 69]

Oh, I don't know, Steve. I think that when a guy is asked specific questions, about his product that potentially could go on a customer's car (with the opportunity to fail if not designed appropriately), and then jumps in with a bunch of fluff, dancing around the question, it should put folks on notice. Further, when it is pretty darned clear that he basically ripped off a design from someone else that worked hard on it and earns a living selling them, well, that somehow doesn't sit too well with me. Calling folks who are EXPERTS and PROFESSIONAL engineers that do this for a living, "laymans," shows a total lack of respect for them. I can assure you, if he would have addressed the question differently than he did, the responses would not have come out the way they did. Sorry, I call BS when I see it.

And for the last time, please, stop referring to CC.com as this terrible place where a bunch of meanies hang out waiting for nothing more than to thrash other people, yes, it happens, but when a sensible question is asked, it never gets out of hand. If you don't like cc, then don't go there, the choice is yours alone.

Yep, Den has come a long way. He learned a lot. I trust him a lot more than the other guy. At least when he doesn't know something, he asks. That's how we all learn.


I would not recommend this subframe. If for no other reason, the forward round tube frame members look sub-standard. The fabricator chose this approach because small diameter round tube is so easy to bend. He may lack the ability (or know-how) to spec mandrel bent square tube frame members, so he substituted round tube. Actually, all he needs to do is call up Art Morrison and order the mandrel bent frame members to spec--Anybody can. That’s what Wayne Due does. It’s the right approach. Go with the Wayne Due clip.

How is this statement different than the original questions posed to the guy? I don't disagree with you at all, and further, if he did this, what other nasties lie in the design? Would you put it on your car? Your wife's?

From what I have seen this guy has NO business selling parts of such a critical nature to the population.

Mark-out

[ks71z28]

As a shifter kart racer myself.... I dislike my 71 Camaro more and more. I want that feel of the kart to an extent. I have driven 200 hp 1200# Radicals. They make my wicked Camaro seem like a 34 year old heap! A fabricator is an artist of sorts, and philosophy is necessary. Give this guy a shot. He joined in on the thread to defend himself, not explain his product. He was attact first. I race at Sears Point (Infineon) near him and would like to be invited to have a look at his operation. I am an Engineer, but no chassis designer. Ease up guys, I like this site, but don't gang up on anyone. I am developing some 2nd gen carbon fiber parts. I would hate to have some one shoot them down before seeing them.

[dennis68]

I would have done this in PM but since Steve called me out I am going to answer in public forum. Steve, I have over 15 years of suspension and brake experience as a professional so I was not by a long shot anywhere near amateur status 10 months ago. I may have been inquiring as to how to apply the knowledge I already had to race car technology of which I had very little experience.

Chew em and spit em out was based on the fact after he had numerous opportunities to back up his claims (both in and out of public forum) he still has brought no tech at all.

I didn't realize you were the self appointed referee and determined who had what background and could decide based a few posts whether or not someone was starting from scratch or expanding their knowledge. Maybe before you spout off in public forum a private conversation might be in order huh?

You may also want to think reviewing some my posts as of late, with this exception I have made no one feel like their questions were too basic or feel belittled.

[chicane67]

Ya know what Stevo and Denny??

Both of you shut the F*** up. I'm the only one around here that can be an arrogant @**hole and pull s**t like that out of my *ss.
:bananna2: My attempt at sarcasm :bananna2:



I do however find the true comedy of these:

"we have been able to defy the laws of physics..." (You guys too ?? I did the same with the girlfriend last night)

"All welds are deburred to induce stress risers" (I really hope that was a type-o)

....This guy MUST be the chassis god we have been waiting for.

Too bad we ultra lame-o's cant hang around with the "biokinetically sound and Mario Andrei himself...." Someday, I wanna be as cool as that.




Seriously though........ I am playing the devils advocate to myself and I'm killing all of you with my professional comedy.



round88~ Bring the tech or find your place back on the bench. Some 'qualified' individuals here have asked you some pretty strait forward questions..... to no avail and answer from you. Yes, there are those of us here that would really like to hear about the why's and how's of the direction you have taken in your construction. And without becoming adversary, I too ask you to provide some insight to those of us interested in hearing your input and ideas. :headbang:

[David Pozzi]

Steve,
I kinda long for the good old days of a couple of years ago when we were so glad to just have found each other to talk to! Thanks for reminding us of why we are here, -at least most of us.

Dennis,
The "Chew 'em up and spit 'em out" remark was a bit too much. You got a rise out of Steve by doing it, it obviously isn't the kind of remark he wants to see in this forum, the same goes for me. It sounds like you were egging on more attacks on the guy.

Chicane67,
You crack me up! :)
I like your last paragraph the best.

Round88,
I think I understand your philosiphy of having a more "supple" suspension for rough backroad driving, but please - HOW DO YOU ACCOMPLISH IT!!!!!

[andrewb70]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/05/britney-1.jpg


Andrew

[dennis68]

"All welds are deburred to induce stress risers"


It was intentional....in fact the whole "ad" is full of idiotic, redundant and plain old BS. My feeble attempt at sarcasm.

[chicane67]

Heh heh heh.... :poke: ....got ya !

[Mean 69]

I am playing the devils advocate to myself and I'm killing all of you with my professional comedy.

Thank you, thank you all. I'll be here all week....

Geeze! Lost Wages is really rubbing on you! BTW, I sent you an e-mail, check it please. Sunny, 78 degrees here. You?
M

[Steve Chryssos]

Yup. I'm not defending Round88 at all. No sense confirming suspension geometry for a frame that may crack in half. Send him down the highway. But do it quick and do it with character.

Forget about Round88.

I'm defending the atmosphere and tone of pro-touring.com. In fact, I probably would have just clicked on the next thread were it not for the statement "Chew em up and spit em out--that's the c-c.com way" That miserasble mojo does more to tarnish the reputation of c-c.com than I ever could.

That statement is indefensable

When I read that statement, I said enough is enough. So I chose to make an example of Denny--who made the statement. I would have just as easily set my sights on someone else if they pulled that trigger.

And that's the problem: Negativity is contagious. It escalates. No one is immune. Let's see how Denny he likes being chewed up and spit out? And I can spit venom with the best of em.

I suggest we put a sticky at the top of the suspension topic. It's a heady subject, so maybe it deserves its own special intro.

Read Before Posting in the Suspension Topic. David Pozzi should probably write the text. Definitely not Tom (Chicayne67)

1) Enlighten members about the benefits and consequences of suspension modification.
2) Recommend some key literature and software that should be read before purchasing parts or posing questions.
3) Indicate that there are some smart fellas here who can greatly assist you in tuning your chassis. That these smart fellas will make EVERY EFFORT to be patient with you. There is no such thing as a stupid question. (That's the tone that we need) However, communication is a two way street. Make every effort to pose your question only after you have done your homework with the search button and required reading.
4) Tell manufacturers that if they wish to promote their chassis parts they should be prepared to back up claims with data.
5) Finish up by emphasizing the importance of the Search Button.

And then we need to follow through: Be being patient and courteous--no matter how painful it may be. Educate the newbies and learn from the experts. The shams should be shown the door quickly. In the end, I think we can elevate the whole club to a higher level of knowledge and therefore performance.

Dennis,
If you agree that a sticky note should be tried and that a positive tone should be the cornerstone of this club, I'll be happy to go back and edit out my slamfest so that it's not hanging around for posterity. Or maybe it's easier for a moderator to just delete the sucker.

Sorry to have made an example out of you.
/Steevo

[chicane67]

We needs a 'WIKI'.......

Now Steevo, why on earth would you say 'definately not Tom' ???

[Mean 69]

Oh, gee, well, uh..... Hate to bring up "cc" again, but the "rules" suggest, no, DEMAND, basically what you brought up. Steev-O. Not a bash, but..... I have met you, Steeve, if only for a minute and I know you're a great guy. Oh, the shame of it all.

I did say previously that I was "out." Aack.
Eeekk.

[wally8]

Hmmm. Where to start......(without offending a bunch of people anyway).

Steve,

You're bringing up some good points. I too agree that this shouldn't be a CC.com experience for anyone but I'm growing tired of "Should I bolt part A on and if so what will it do for me, this is for a street only car that I'm mostly just going to drag race"....

I'm sure I'm being a little too hardcore when I say this but honestly, who cares what you do to your car if you're only going to drive it only on the street. Fact is you shouldn't be doing anything on the street that can get your car that far out of shape.

However, there has to be some middle ground in here where we can have some meaningful discussion and reduce the amount of meaningless questions and vendors hocking their wares and trying to create some marketing hype. Maybe that's the stuff that's been putting people on edge lately :-)

Don't get me wrong, this should be as friendly for new folks as it is for more advanced members but the meaty tech discussions have definitely been lacking lately.

Since I hate bitching without offering a suggestion for improvement, here it is. Maybe we can start posting topics about different aspects (maybe we could start with scrub radius....) and discuss them to death. Then, as a few topics wrap up, start rolling it all up into one kick ass FAQ. It could end up being a great body of knowledge in the end.

I realize a lot of this discussion has been done well before I showed up here and the search yeilds some great info but it could be better and the real concept is to really generate a body of knowledge in the form of a meaningful FAQ. We could put all this pent up theory aggression to good use.

Just brainstorming here.................


Wally

[dennis68]

Hey Steve, I'm perfectly fine with that, in fact if you go through my history you won't find many "klinks". You may find multiple posts that are klinks in which I was the original author. You also will not find many posts in which I bash anyone on the basis of ignorance....I will be the first to jump on the wagon for posting erroneous information as fact or posting "the parts I build are the best and offer no scientific evidence to back it up" though.


There is no such thing as a stupid question. (That's the tone that we need) Maybe if roundy had come asking questions about his sub frame rather than stating a bunch "facts", useless but facts in his opinion, this thread would have gone a different way.

I guess if roundy88 has nothing more to offer this thread is done.

[vanzuuk1]

sorry if I am only driving my car on the street, I havent even paid for it yet and I dont want to roll it into a metallic green ball of metal.I thought the definition of protouring was a street car with roadrace flavor and capabilities,not a race only car.Most cars on this site see limited track use at best. My car is barely driveable with the stock worn out suspension, am I a poser for trying to bring the handling up to par? I am not attacking you or your comments but I am new here and I thought it was a place to swap info about cool cars .None of us slid from the womb with working knowledge of engineering and physics so even the smartest guys on this site started somewhere,correct? If someone on the street asks me what year my mustang is (its a camaro) I dont say "YOU F@#$%^NG IDIOT its a CAMARO!" Sometimes you get more from a persons enthusiasm than their experience.
I think the problem also stems from not knowing someones tone when they write something.When you read someones comments you dont know if they were smiling as they wrote it or trying to rattle the other person.
And thanks to those who were patient with my early posts, I search before asking and my typing gets a little better each time.Dave Pozzi is a gentlemen.
On to more important things , steve whats for lunch tomorrow? Does anyone go if its raining? Are these stupid questions?

good night.

[Steve Chryssos]

I think this could be a kick-ass tool.

Tom: Cuz, I know you can take a joke.

Mark: I wouldn't know. Haven't been to that site in years. I didn't like what I saw then, and now I can only go by statements like the one that caused the blow-up "....the c-c.com way". If we put it in writing that we will make every effort to help, maybe the tone will be set for all.

Wally: No matter how hard you try to steer towards the hardcore, this is a site for hot rodders. And yeah, they're (me too) mostly gonna use their cars on the street. That's just what this site is about. Otherwise, we'd all go out and builds spec Miatas or IMCA modifieds. But I can't do that. I want a hot rod that handles.
Top of the bell curve are guys buying bolt-on parts. The meaty discussions can help people understand how and why those parts are beneficial as well as to explain the limitations inherent to those same parts due to their bolt on nature. That's probably the best way for folks to step up to the extreme.
Dennis: Yeah let's be sure to emphasize that vendors need to come prepared or they will be politely warned and then shown the door. We don't want our members getting hosed or hurt due to substandard parts. Put that right in there.

I'll get with Ralph on initiating a sticky that will evolve into something comprehensive.


Poof! This thread is gone. See ya on the flipside.

Ralph, please put the smackdown on this sucker.

[David Pozzi]

For starters, read the posting rules:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6

vanzuuk1,
THANK you for posting the new guy's view of this forum. I do sometimes skip basic questions because I get tired of the same old thing. I DON"T go in and bash the guy for not doing a search but do try to point that out in a friendly way. I ALSO do the SAME things at Team Camaro, so I get plenty of basic questions, SOME with my name on the message specifically. I also get lots and lots of Emails with basic what should I do questions.

If I don't feel jazzed to help a newbe, I clam up or wait until I'm in a more positive mood, there are plenty of others who will offer help in my place. I often look down the list of posts for one that has 0 replies and is getting old, I try to get in there and offer something to pop it back up or get the guy an answer to his question if I can.

The more hardcore racer questions intrest me more, those are MY chance to learn something, sometimes I look for an answer in one of my books and it helps me learn or think of things in a different way.

If you do a search and find a really interesting hardcore topic, you can post to it and bring it back to the top of the list and continue right along with the discussion, that way it's all in one place. A hardcore forum section woud be nice but I think we can just include those topics here and reference them in a sticky.

I could post a sticky topic that would contain links to all the interesting hard-core tech. You guys would have to help me fill it out though.
Sound good?

[Steve Chryssos]

Thank you. :firefire:

[383blown]

Well put Joe Rocket! its as simple as if you don't like it dont buy it. We don't need to be rude or act arrogant just because we disagree with his statments or should I say lack of statments with anything to back them up.

[David Pozzi]

I think we are done here, the mod's agree I should close this now.