More proof that speed belongs on the track and not the street..

[Steve1968LS2]

Stuff like this makes me sick.. and it hurts our hobby since it makes all of us in "performance cars" look bad..

Don't be stupid.. save the high speed stuff for the track where it belongs!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/05/grisly-corvette-crash-in-van-nuys-4-killed.html

Four people were killed early Thursday when a sports car crashed near Van Nuys airport, police said.

The yellow 2007 Chevy Corvette was traveling at high speeds when it hit a guard rail on Roscoe Boulevard shortly after midnight, said Officer Gregory Baek of the Los Angeles Police Department. The car skidded several hundred feet, crossed some railway tracks and came to rest upside down, he said.

The bodies of two men and a woman were found scattered around the car, he said. It was not immediately clear whether they were passengers or pedestrians.

A fourth body, found pinned inside the vehicle, was believed to be that of the driver, Baek said. He could not say whether it was a man or a woman.

The crash left car and body parts scattered along a half-mile stretch of Roscoe Boulevard, according to news reports from the scene.

Police closed Roscoe Boulevard between Hayvenhurst Avenue and Balboa Boulevard. The crash was not expected to delay Metrolink, Baek said.

[BonzoHansen]

snap, what a mess. A single 2 seat car accident kills 4. Wow.

I wonder if one really was a pedestrian and maybe they unsuccessfully swerved to avoid him.

[John Wright]

snap, what a mess. A single 2 seat car accident kills 4. Wow.

I wonder if one really was a pedestrian and maybe they unsuccessfully swerved to avoid him.
that would still mean that 3 were in the car.....not enough seatbelts to go around.

[406 Q-ship]

that would still mean that 3 were in the car.....not enough seatbelts to go around.

Sounds like only the driver was wear a seat belt anyway.....

I can just bet that the age in that Corvette was under 25. 10 feet tall, invisible, and bullet proof.

[buickfunnycar.com]

Surprised the article didn't say they were drag racing,as usual...

[Declawed69]

I believe all 4 were passengers 2 men and 2 women.

[MrQuick]

sad but we will continue to see as we have for almost a hundred years.

I wish I had a dash cam for all the stupid stuff I see on the road on a daily basis. People seem to under estimate the damage potential of a motor vehicle.

Vince

[BonzoHansen]

sad but we will continue to see as we have for almost a hundred years.

I wish I had a dash cam for all the stupid stuff I see on the road on a daily basis. People seem to under estimate the damage potential of a motor vehicle.

Vince

+1. My 9 year old asked me if driving was easy. I told him I used to think it was, but so many people are bad at it that it must be a lot harder than I think.

[moreHP]

4 people in a vette and then haul arse? Thats a really bad idea. I agree with them being young. Maybe driving dads vette and showing off with friends? Very sad story.

[Off Duty]

Unlike Ron White, I believe you CAN fix stupid....but it's usually FATAL:(

[Shiro666]

Tragic.

[1badchevelle]

yep all 4 were in the car. female driver pined.

[JEFFTATE]

4 people in a Vette , racing ???
No wonder ...

[406 Q-ship]

sad but we will continue to see as we have for almost a hundred years.

I wish I had a dash cam for all the stupid stuff I see on the road on a daily basis. People seem to under estimate the damage potential of a motor vehicle.

Vince

I agree with what you said but to add one more thing. Americans are not taught the dangers of driving a 2 ton battering ram at high speed while putting on make-up, eatting, reading a newspaper, texting, drinking, talking on a cell phone, ...........

Let alone the dangers of being inexperienced and driving at high speeds, which this I believe happened here.

Just think of the stupid to get a Corvette flipped over on to its lid.

[2Bad4Ya]

That sux!

It was decent of whoever decided to cover the car's license plates, respect the families privacy at this juncture in the accident.

[mpozzi]

Give me the ACM as there's a lot of pre-crash data available. That module can rat you out in many ways.

Mary P.

[John Wright]

Give me the ACM as there's a lot of pre-crash data available. That module can rat you out in many ways.

Mary P.
Ah...the pilot's black box

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

awww man thats messed up...

hilarious thing is I was going down I85 yesterday to a local cruise and 4 cars pulled up to me while i was going down the road.. a neon srt boosted, a civic, a evo, and some other thing.. challenged me to a race honked his horn 3 times and...


I waved goodbye as i putt down the road at 70..

i dont play with youngins.

[mpozzi]

Agree about being responsible with "our" kind of cars. Being an asshat driving a big red Camaro on the streets doesn't do much for the Pro-Touring or Street habit and I really keep it calm on the highway for that exact same reason. The area I live in isn't that large and if a car with this description is ratted out, it's either MusclecarJohn or me. As his is not driven much and in a garage ... tag, I'm it.

No reason to be stupid with the car when there are plenty of legal places to do this, i.e. track or autocross.

Mary Pozzi

[mpozzi]

awww man thats messed up...

hilarious thing is I was going down I85 yesterday to a local cruise and 4 cars pulled up to me while i was going down the road.. a neon srt boosted, a civic, a evo, and some other thing.. challenged me to a race honked his horn 3 times and...


I waved goodbye as i putt down the road at 70..

i dont play with youngins.

LOL and I have this happen a lot too. Usually, I talk to them about autocross and then tell them to bring it on ...

Mary Pozzi

[406 Q-ship]

LOL and I have this happen a lot too. Usually, I talk to them about autocross and then tell them to bring it on ...

Mary Pozzi

says the viper as she lures them to there doom......

[class67]

Tragic? yes...I feel bad for the families but I just don't have any patience with stupidity.

To expand on Vengenance' post, I have that kind of crap all the time, just had a a guy in an s2000 try that with me today in the middle of town...lol

[BuddyP]

several years back there was 2 guys and a gal in a fiero trying to "jump" over a hump in a cemetary here locally. The gal went through the front windshield and was killed.

[The WidowMaker]

that sucks... and it could have been me many times in my stupid youth. if you think you didnt do stuff like that when you were young, youre either lying or just too old to remember.

my parents had NO idea what my car was capable of when i was 16. 450+ hp and a new drivers license. recipe for disaster! and one reason my sons will never drive one of these cars until they are mature enough.

[srh3trinity]

That is a horrible story. My parents must have raised me right. I had a powerful car right off the bat when turning 16 and in spite of this, I never managed to get into much trouble with any of my cars in my younger days. I look back on it now and I can't believe some of the cars I had.

[class67]

that sucks... and it could have been me many times in my stupid youth. if you think you didnt do stuff like that when you were young, youre either lying or just too old to remember.

my parents had NO idea what my car was capable of when i was 16. 450+ hp and a new drivers license. recipe for disaster! and one reason my sons will never drive one of these cars until they are mature enough.


Good point!....I had the same thing at that age too, I did do some stupid things but I did have enough sense to know that there was a time and place for certain things. That, and the fear that my dad instilled in me, he was an intimidating dude with a temper...lol

[Off Duty]

Good point!....I had the same thing at that age too, I did do some stupid things but I did have enough sense to know that there was a time and place for certain things. That, and the fear that my dad instilled in me, he was an intimidating dude with a temper...lol

Although my dad didn't really have a "temper", he was someone I respected. Just like the above, I had enough sense not to take someone with me (no populated roads and-if I was really racing, no passengers!)

The occasional stop light jaunt, 50-75 yards or so and some wheelspinning action was ok with a passenger, but nothing more.

Finally, from the time I was about 12 or so, I knew what career I wanted. Couldn't do it with an arrest:)

Stupid people!

[John Wright]

several years back there was 2 guys and a gal in a fiero trying to "jump" over a hump in a cemetary here locally. The gal went through the front windshield and was killed.I shudder to think "what could have happened" when I was 16-17...driving my pickup, been playing basketball with my buddy and had my two kid brothers(11 and 12yo) on the back, in the open bed, sitting on their skateboards...punched it at about 45-50mph and hit a hump over a set of railroad tracks and sailed who knows how far and remember seeing my two kids brothers in the rearview mirror get launched up over my line of sight, still sitting on their skateboards....yikes!....so thankful that they stayed in the bed of that truck. Scares me to think back about... "what if"

Oh man was that stupid...

[Bowstring]

Thirty years ago last month one of my best friends and I were entering a set of S curves just north of a local town. As we were heading in to the first curve ( 45 mph limit) we were hit head on by a 1975 Corvette with 2 male passengers and 2 females traveling at an estimated 85 plus. The front bumper of the Vette was imbedded 2 feet into the Triumph TR7 that we were riding in. My friend was not wearing a seat belt and had his chest crushed from the impact and was thrown from the car. He was 23. I walked away with a concussion and a lot of cuts and bruises, very lucky considering a wasn't wearing a belt either. The driver of the other car was just under the limit for OWI, tried to blame the crash on us. He was charged with involuntary manslaughter. His defense didn't work, he was convicted and sentenced to 3 years. He served 3 months. The other driver and his cousin had just picked up the two girls at a bar and were showing them how fast his newly purchased Corvette would go. In the process a very good man was robbed of his life.

[93Polo]

Sounds like only the driver was wear a seat belt anyway.....

I can just bet that the age in that Corvette was under 25. 10 feet tall, invisible, and bullet proof.

A few thoughts here. First we don't know the speed and I don't trust the media or LEOs opinion of a "high" rate of speed.

Next, I would not assume the age, it could be a hot shot that just hit it big. I've been challenged by drivers over 30, a few over 50 when I had my C5. I can think of atleast 2 guys over 40 that were regulars in the performance newer model rwd car scene that everyone knew street raced. In the past few years metro Atlanta law enforcement has greatly reduced anything of the sort.

Last but most important, yes, save the racing for the track.

[formula]

I don't mean to be crass.....

but....


.......am I the only one still trying to figure out how you fit 4 people in a 'vette? 1 driving+THREE in the passenger seat?!?!

[cluxford]

Although my dad didn't really have a "temper", he was someone I respected. Just like the above, I had enough sense not to take someone with me (no populated roads and-if I was really racing, no passengers!)

The occasional stop light jaunt, 50-75 yards or so and some wheelspinning action was ok with a passenger, but nothing more.

Finally, from the time I was about 12 or so, I knew what career I wanted. Couldn't do it with an arrest:)

Stupid people!


My old man drove for a living, first big rigs then busses. A number of my friends old man's also drove trucks. Point being when you are 6-7 years old and watching idiots cut trucks off, pull in front at the last minute while the truck is slowing for lights, drive slow up a hill, etc etc etc, you learn to be super aware of what is around you on the road, front, side and behind. You also learn that these things are moving people killers (cars and trucks)

I like the Finland model. No one gets a license over there without something like 50+ hours on a skid plan amongst other advance driver skills.

Won't stop kids being kids, but if they do get in trouble they'll have a few more skills than they otherwise would, even with my background when i first got my license I still drove way to fast, did burnouts, and all the stuff kids did, I just did it on deserted country roads, but I was lucky not to be killed.....

[mikedc]

IMHO part of the problem is that our cars all perform too well these days. Not just the sports cars but everything on the road. These cars & trucks don't lose any traction at all until they've already built up enough inertia to really go into the weeds, and then it all finally lets loose at once.

Huge wide tires + huge swaybars + huge curb weights = wrecks.



I don't think most of the public has any idea how heavy their vehicles really are. People can read the curb weight figures but they don't get it at a viscral level. The weight is too well disguised by the chassis setups.


---

[Matt@BOS]

IMHO part of the problem is that our cars all perform too well these days. Not just the sports cars but everything on the road. These cars & trucks don't lose any traction at all until they've already built up enough inertia to really go into the weeds, and then it all finally lets loose at once.

Huge wide tires + huge swaybars + huge curb weights = wrecks.



I don't think most of the public has any idea how heavy their vehicles really are. People can read the curb weight figures but they don't get it at a viscral level. The weight is too well disguised by the chassis setups.


---

Agreed, and not only that, but I think most people lack even a basic understanding of what accompanies the increase in speed, where time to react is considerably less and damage is much greater. New cars drive so well and have so much more power than cars even ten years ago that once a person is out of control, chances are no minor accident is going to occur.

Matt

[BuddyP]

Agreed, and not only that, but I think most people lack even a basic understanding of what accompanies the increase in speed, where time to react is considerably less and damage is much greater. New cars drive so well and have so much more power than cars even ten years ago that once a person is out of control, chances are no minor accident is going to occur.

Matt
I think about that power difference a lot... heck when I was in high school the fox body 5.0's were considered fast at 225 hp... now the wifes '07 4 door FWD saturn would practically run circles around one with just a V6.

[rednecknate]

It is trajic But will continue as long as car's a powered by well power.. But with the Current Govenmental control we may be driving car limited at 50 mph anyway's

I had a 64 Nova with 450 hp when i was 16-19 We used to atleast go out away from town to race on a nice open road But sadly i can think of many times when i drove 70-80 mph in town in a 25 mph zone.. more than a few times... I'm just man enough to admit it..

I lost a very Good Friend in a horrific accident ... Out in the boonny's another Kid " drunk" had got a new Vw and decided to see how fast it would go.... While My friend was in the passenger seat!! well long story short... My friend died.. Car was going approx 115-120 when it over shot a turn.. crashed And he was helplessly pinned In the Car and Burned to Death!!!! While The driver was thown from the car basically uninjured somehow and ran up a hill and hid from the cops for fear of being taken to Jail.. Later the Driver admitted that my friend was screaming at him to slow down..

Kid DRUNK Driver only did Like a few months in Jail and Was released ..Becasue of HIs Parents Huge amount of Money and Expensive lawyer's

Th Bad irony of this story is my friend that Burned to Death was a Fireman!!! and an Only Child... The worst part was seing his dad and mom they were big time car people and Everytime i saw them at a car show they would almost cry when they saw someone who reminded them of there son... ME!! Sad times...all around..

[ArtosDracon]

While a tragic accident, I am forced to say that they were asking for it. My generation has too little respect for anything, be it their own life, others lives, or the amount of kinetic energy their stupidity carries. They've been raised to think that everything is going to be ok, no matter what, and far too many are reaching adulthood having been blinded from just how dangerous their stupidity is. It angers and saddens me on a regular basis. Life is not easy, and these types of people's parents need to quit making it seem like it is, or things like this will continue to happen.

[shortrack]

Thirty years ago last month one of my best friends and I were entering a set of S curves just north of a local town. As we were heading in to the first curve ( 45 mph limit) we were hit head on by a 1975 Corvette with 2 male passengers and 2 females traveling at an estimated 85 plus. The front bumper of the Vette was imbedded 2 feet into the Triumph TR7 that we were riding in. My friend was not wearing a seat belt and had his chest crushed from the impact and was thrown from the car. He was 23. I walked away with a concussion and a lot of cuts and bruises, very lucky considering a wasn't wearing a belt either. The driver of the other car was just under the limit for OWI, tried to blame the crash on us. He was charged with involuntary manslaughter. His defense didn't work, he was convicted and sentenced to 3 years. He served 3 months. The other driver and his cousin had just picked up the two girls at a bar and were showing them how fast his newly purchased Corvette would go. In the process a very good man was robbed of his life.

sad.....sorry you had to go through that

[shortrack]

It is trajic But will continue as long as car's a powered by well power.. But with the Current Govenmental control we may be driving car limited at 50 mph anyway's

I had a 64 Nova with 450 hp when i was 16-19 We used to atleast go out away from town to race on a nice open road But sadly i can think of many times when i drove 70-80 mph in town in a 25 mph zone.. more than a few times... I'm just man enough to admit it..

I lost a very Good Friend in a horrific accident ... Out in the boonny's another Kid " drunk" had got a new Vw and decided to see how fast it would go.... While My friend was in the passenger seat!! well long story short... My friend died.. Car was going approx 115-120 when it over shot a turn.. crashed And he was helplessly pinned In the Car and Burned to Death!!!! While The driver was thown from the car basically uninjured somehow and ran up a hill and hid from the cops for fear of being taken to Jail.. Later the Driver admitted that my friend was screaming at him to slow down..

Kid DRUNK Driver only did Like a few months in Jail and Was released ..Becasue of HIs Parents Huge amount of Money and Expensive lawyer's

Th Bad irony of this story is my friend that Burned to Death was a Fireman!!! and an Only Child... The worst part was seing his dad and mom they were big time car people and Everytime i saw them at a car show they would almost cry when they saw someone who reminded them of there son... ME!! Sad times...all around..

sheeeeeit man!....very sad

[dadto2jays]

I feel bad for innocent victims not for the idiots that have no common sense...

[H2Ogbodies]

Sad indeed...I just found out that two guys down at the KC House of Boost lost control of a sandrail car a couple weeks ago on the street while doing some tuning on it-they got loose with it somehow, flipped it and it rolled out of control-it killed one of the shop guys and Dorian who helps run the shop, was nearly killed-he has been on a medically induced coma while his body tries to recover...broken neck, fractured bones, internal injuries, etc. Neither was wearing any seat restraints at the time. A guy I build cars for has one of his cars at their shop and was checking up on it when he got the news and told me about it.

[79PonchoUK]

I don't mean to be crass.....

but....


.......am I the only one still trying to figure out how you fit 4 people in a 'vette? 1 driving+THREE in the passenger seat?!?!

No you're not. Sounds crazy.

I've got to put a bit on the other side of the fence though. Yes, don't drive like a mad man on the roads.....but you can still enjoy them with faster than average driving. When people like us open our cars up on the roads a bit it's sometimes frowned upon, as though it's automatically extremely dangerous. It isn't.

There will always be an inherant risk while driving a car. Especially cars like ours, remember they're pretty dangerous compared with modern production cars. We take that extra risk though because life is much more about just being safe.

4 up in a corvette???, obviously doing something crazy...it's not calculated risk...it's just lack of thought full stop.

We can all say no racing on the roads, and stick to the laws etc for safety....we're just bull****ting ourselves though.

[wmhjr]

When people like us open our cars up on the roads a bit it's sometimes frowned upon, as though it's automatically extremely dangerous. It isn't.

There will always be an inherant risk while driving a car. Especially cars like ours, remember they're pretty dangerous compared with modern production cars. We take that extra risk though because life is much more about just being safe.

We can all say no racing on the roads, and stick to the laws etc for safety....we're just bull****ting ourselves though.

I agree that it's not a terrible thing to drive a little fast on some roads. However I don't mean a "lot" fast. That is "extremely dangerous". We have to remember that we're not just judging the mechanics, design, quality and engineering of our own cars or our own driving. We're also talking about considering the kid riding a bicycle around the next corner on a rural road, the tractor pulling a hay wagon, the people doing community service picking up trash from the sides of roads, and the list goes on. We're also talking about other drivers - who we ALL agree are in many cases unsafe and incompetent in the best of circumstances. Speed differentials kill. From a purely safety statistics viewpoint, two cars going down a road with a speed difference of 15 mph is FAR safer than two cars going down the exact same road with a speed differential of 50mph. That's a fact.

Many of us did stupid crap when we were kids. I know I did. Things I would never ever do again. But you know, there were ALSO things I DIDN'T do as a kid because somebody older and smarter than I set a better example. I find no excuse in youthful mistakes in cases like this. Rationalizing stupidity is not a strategy for success. I think that when jerks like the vette driver here kill passengers who were voluntarily along for the ride, it's manslaughter. And when they kill other innocent people, it's murder. They should be put away for life.

And I'm not bull****ting myself when I say no racing on the roads. Frankly, IMHO anybody who DOESN'T say it is bull****ting themselves.

[79PonchoUK]

And I'm not bull****ting myself when I say no racing on the roads. Frankly, IMHO anybody who DOESN'T say it is bull****ting themselves.

I find it hard to believe that you, as a car enthusiast, haven't tried to beat someone off the lights, chased them off an on-ramp or given a bit of a blast on the highway to "show that porsche up".

I have, and do. That IS racing on the roads. Do I do it in a rediculous, dangerous way? No. Am I suggesting any of us do? No.

We can try and speak as politically correct as we like...that's fine, it's your choice. Not being politically correct doesn't mean I'm a danger on the roads though.
Even if I do turn out to bull****ting myself somehow, I'm not going to hide the fact that I drive assertively, enjoying the power of my car (what little power it has lol), taking the racing line where I can, hearing the tyres chirp at junctions. It's all part of driving fast road cars. I'm not going to feel guilty out of some insecurity and pressure to be politically correct. No way. I'll just make sure I stay within my limits, and the limits of calculated risk.

Shame this corvette driver didn't. Looks like he went way too far...with too many passengers not and probably none of them belted up either. :(
Just where did he put them all? Is there room behind the seats for anyone in a vette? Surely he didn't have 4 in the front?

[wmhjr]

I find it hard to believe that you, as a car enthusiast, haven't tried to beat someone off the lights, chased them off an on-ramp or given a bit of a blast on the highway to "show that porsche up".



I don't. You may find it hard to believe, but I do not drive on the street to compare myself or my vehicles with other cars. As mentioned before, I did lots of things decades ago that I am sorry I did. I put too much time and effort in my vehicles (either in buying or building them) to risk them or other people on the street. There are simply far too many track venues within extremely short driving distance. I find zero satisfaction in "beating somebody off the lights" or "chasing them on an on-ramp". On my project, I've got over $13K just in the engine. I've had track driving instruction and time on a track. They don't and there's nothing to prove.

I will admit to being on an empty road, downshifting into 2nd or 3rd and jumping on it a few times. I do mean a few times and not to high speeds or anything. Just putting a little load on the drivetrain. I'm not a saint. I do drive over the posted limit in places. Just not by double or anything. I know that's a "little" hypcritical.

Point is that we're not alone on the road. We may "think" we're driving within "our" limits, but on the public road there are other variables for which we don't have control - and there are unwilling participants in our risk equation. We have no right to force our risks on others. If I'm "chirping the tires" on the street, I'm wrong. If I'm "smoking" the tires on the track, I'm happy.

[79PonchoUK]

Point is that we're not alone on the road. We may "think" we're driving within "our" limits, but on the public road there are other variables for which we don't have control - and there are unwilling participants in our risk equation. We have no right to force our risks on others. If I'm "chirping the tires" on the street, I'm wrong. If I'm "smoking" the tires on the track, I'm happy.


Fair enough.

I suggest you're in the minority here. Not everything is about proving something anyway....it's just enjoyable.

...and just by being on the road you're forcing risk, where do you limit it? I've lost control of my car twice in 10 years...both times when I was hanging the back end out on a roundabout. I didn't hit anything because I didn't go fast enough to....most will still say I was being stupid in the car though....just because I was finding the limits.
I've never smashed one up, never totalled a car and I like to think that's because I know my limits.....I found them out when I went too far.

People who don't know their limits are just as dangerous in the wet, on ice or a hundred other scenarios.


....and doing double the speed limit is usually pure stupid. There's racing about and then there's pushing your luck. It's as though people struggle to see things in moderation any more.


Sorry wmhjr.....This is perhaps a little bit of a vent for me. Britain is rediculously PC. I can't drive my muscle car in an underground car park without getting a bollocking from a parking attendant. It's insanity. The LSD makes a bit of tyre squeal inevitable, yet they still get uptight saying there's no need. It's people being excessively righteous, simple as that.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm arguing...I just suspected a little hypocracy from a few people. I'm not having a go at anyone.

[79PonchoUK]

I do agree though...


....if you want to really push all limits of the car to the point that the risk becomes too great, you should definitely stick to the track.


...but if you just want to have a play on the road, your enjoyment from the car is no less important than someone else's convenience from it, despite all the frowning. Just keep the risk to a sensible minimum.

[79PonchoUK]

killed one of the shop guys and Dorian who helps run the shop, was nearly killed-he has been on a medically induced coma while his body tries to recover...broken neck, fractured bones, internal injuries, etc. Neither was wearing any seat restraints at the time. .


You only need to watch things like Nascar to see how important belts and other safety equipment is. Not wearing a safety belt is madness. They're usually more annoying when you're not wearing them anyway.


There was a lad I once met a few times who was a big supporter of not wearing seatbelts....said "they keep you trapped into the car" and " I don't need them anyway".

He's dead now too.

[mikedc]

Let's be honest with ourselves. If you don't EVER intended to drive aggressively fast on the street, then there is no reason for your PT car to be streetable.

That's the way it is. Our PT cars could be faster, cheaper, more dedicated race cars without struggling to maintain the dual-purpose nature.

The price of another daily driver is not really a big obstacle for the vast majority of us. A modern daily car will be more comfortable, better mileage, and probably safer in a street wreck. In fact most of us already use another daily driver car right now.

[wmhjr]

I sure don't agree with that. As a matter of pure fact, that flies in the face of current trends. LS technology allows for vehicles to more easily be streetable while at the same time track ready. You could just as easily build a non-LS motor even on the street but it allows you to enjoy the ride during the 90% of the time that you're just casually driving on a nice day. Just like you see people driving around on Porsche C4s, BMW M5s, C6 Vettes, etc. I have nothing against "spirited" driving. But this to me just sounds like rationalizing. Some of us want to build a car "capable" of but maybe not push it - except once in a while on a track. I've got lots of friends who have built magnificent cars but they are absolutely conservative on the street. Safer and less reckless than pretty much anyone you see driving to and from work. No excessive speeds, etc. It takes way too much time, effort and money to build a great car.

It would be interesting to see the ages of people along with their opinions in this matter. I have some suspicions, but.... Other people on the road didn't sign up for us to play Mario Andretti among them. Like I said - nothing against driving a little fast. But if you're breaking the rear end loose going around a bend on a public road, IMHO you deserve to have your car impounded. Too many innocent people killed because some fool "thought" they knew the limits of their car and their driving. The public road is no place to "find your limit". And every time it happens, it makes it that much easier for laws to be passed that try to outlaw just building or owning one of our cars.

I wonder how many people will get killed this weekend on the road? An interesting site is http://www.evostreetracers.com/Evo_Press_Release128.html

Interesting information. 11% of all deaths in their study were pregnant women or people over the age of 60. That says something for how being stupid doesn't just put yourself at risk.

[mikedc]

I'm not trying to argue that everyone who takes a hot car on the public road is doing stupid stuff. Lots of guys have fast cars and drive them like 100% sedate mature adults on public roads.



I'm just saying that there really isn't any theoretical reason to keep a hot car streetable except for the possibility of running it that hard on the street.

Fast cars are not as comfy as another docile type of daily driver and they're worse on mileage and things like that. The speed limits are set low enough and the roads are smooth enough to where you can't break loose the tires in a corner and you don't use very much horsepower. Not even close on either count.

In some very rural areas the roads are still untamed enough to call for a sporty car. But not in most areas these days.

.

[79PonchoUK]

nothing against driving a little fast. But if you're breaking the rear end loose going around a bend on a public road, IMHO you deserve to have your car impounded. Too many innocent people killed because some fool "thought" they knew the limits of their car and their driving. The public road is no place to "find your limit". And every time it happens, it makes it that much easier for laws to be passed that try to outlaw just building or owning one of our cars.

I wonder how many people will get killed this weekend on the road? An interesting site is http://www.evostreetracers.com/Evo_Press_Release128.html

Interesting information. 11% of all deaths in their study were pregnant women or people over the age of 60. That says something for how being stupid doesn't just put yourself at risk.

Lets evaluate here....

You can't kill someone getting the back end out at 15mph. If there is nobody around, they can't die either...even if you're doing it at 70mph.
Similarly, if you can't see if there are people around when you drive, whether sensible or not, then you shouldn't be behind the wheel at all.

It's a VERY easy thing to work out.

Also, you're assuming that the only people that crash are people dicking about in their fast cars. That's just blinkered. Most road deaths are caused by drunk people, people who are using lipstick (including pregnant women), or people not not reading the road or traffic ahead...

Most road deaths aren't caused by excessive speed. Inexperience is the most common cause of road deaths and that is certainly not directly related to excessive speed.

It's easy (and more and more the fashion) to criticise any kind of exuberent driving. People love to seem ultra-mature and sound as though they have a complete handle on life by criticising anything that isn't completely safe.....it's imbalanced though.

As a result of the 'no risk by any accounts' mission so many have, we have rediculous Health and Safety regulations. You can't move a fork-lift truck in a store without 4 people walking with it on each corner. You can't wire a light into your own house. You can't even step foot into a lot of engineering areas without a 4 day course.

What I'm saying is there is a balance and if I can mess about when the roads are empty at little to no risk to anyone else, gaining experience on how my car handles in the wet or dry and how to control it, I'm going to be a safer driver when I am around people and some pensioner swerves into my lane.

I have a huge respect for the road - especially adverse conditions. I wouldn't have that without practice, would I. You may well take my car off me, but it's entirely possible that despite (and possibly because of) my dicking about, I might be less likely to cause a death than you are. More likely to crash my car...certainly, but less likely to kill someone when they make a mistake in front of me.



This is the least black and white subject to debate that I can think of.



I mean, last month there was a woman in our local Sainsbury car park that rolled her car......in the car park. She's the second to write a car off there in 18 months.

[wmhjr]

I'm just saying that there really isn't any theoretical reason to keep a hot car streetable except for the possibility of running it that hard on the street.

.

Maybe you should rephrase that to "there really isn't any logical reason. There is also no logical reason to build a street car with a fully polished roots blower sticking out of the hood. Or any logical reason to build a car on hydraulics or air systems that hop up and down.

Some people do it because they like building it, knowing it has the ability.

Some of us carry concealed weapons. Some of us just like shooting. We don't every once in a while pull out a .45 or .357 and start blasting away.

I think some here are still trying to rationalize. Just my opinion. I simply don't buy the argument.

[wmhjr]

79PonchoUK, you seem like a good guy, and I agree with some of what you're saying. But to be honest, you also scare the hell out of me and I'm real glad you're not on roads near me.

You have absolutely no possible way to know if somebody on a bicycle is around the next bend. You have FAR too much security in your own ability and in some omnipotent ability to see what's around corners. A 15mph tail spin can EASILY kill a pedestrian. When you think of at least a ton and a half of mass moving under power, you incredibly underestimate the destructive force you are wielding.

Trying to further rationalize that it must be OK to take "some" chances with other peoples lives, because "heck, there are risks everywhere" is an incredibly bad attempt. You further attempt to state that "most road deaths are caused by inexperience" (a statement which is an opinion and not a fact) and you state that speed really isn't a primary factor. The FACT is that as mentioned, speed DIFFERENTIAL has been shown to be a primary factor related to highway fatalities. Then you talk about you MUST be safer because of the experience you gain by "exuberant driving". Experience that SHOULD come from being responsible, and getting it on a track. On a track, conditions are controlled and all participants are aware of the risks. On a public road, you are imposing your risks on others. As a cyclist with friends who have been hit by cars being driven exactly as you describe, on rural roads, which are quiet, your statements really piss me off.

You're right. We have too many restrictions, and they are growing. In many cases as a result of over-reaction due to stupid people doing stupid things. Like "pushing" their cars on the street.

Again, I'm not saying that even I drive within every single law. Do I exceed speed limits sometimes? Sure. Is that maybe a little hypocritical? Yeah, probably. I admit it. But, there's a big difference between doing 70mph on a 55mph highway, or 45 in a 35 zone when all the rest of the traffic is doing the same thing - and slinging my car around a bend when somebodies family dog could be walking across the road around the bend, or where there may be a cyclist , or a tractor, or whatever. Or what about the private property that you'll tear up if you lose control? Did YOU pay for that yard? Those crops? That mailbox? The area on either side of a public road IS NOT PUBLIC PROPERTY - AND IT AIN'T YOURS. Or by stupidly trying to blow off some guy at a red light. You see, I know what the cars I have built can do. They get tested at the track. Same place my driving experience came from.

[79PonchoUK]

79PonchoUK, you seem like a good guy, and I agree with some of what you're saying. But to be honest, you also scare the hell out of me and I'm real glad you're not on roads near me.

You have absolutely no possible way to know if somebody on a bicycle is around the next bend. You have FAR too much security in your own ability and in some omnipotent ability to see what's around corners. A 15mph tail spin can EASILY kill a pedestrian. When you think of at least a ton and a half of mass moving under power, you incredibly underestimate the destructive force you are wielding.

Trying to further rationalize that it must be OK to take "some" chances with other peoples lives, because "heck, there are risks everywhere" is an incredibly bad attempt. You further attempt to state that "most road deaths are caused by inexperience" (a statement which is an opinion and not a fact) and you state that speed really isn't a primary factor. The FACT is that as mentioned, speed DIFFERENTIAL has been shown to be a primary factor related to highway fatalities. Then you talk about you MUST be safer because of the experience you gain by "exuberant driving". Experience that SHOULD come from being responsible, and getting it on a track. On a track, conditions are controlled and all participants are aware of the risks. On a public road, you are imposing your risks on others. As a cyclist with friends who have been hit by cars being driven exactly as you describe, on rural roads, which are quiet, your statements really piss me off.

You're right. We have too many restrictions, and they are growing. In many cases as a result of over-reaction due to stupid people doing stupid things. Like "pushing" their cars on the street.

Again, I'm not saying that even I drive within every single law. Do I exceed speed limits sometimes? Sure. Is that maybe a little hypocritical? Yeah, probably. I admit it. But, there's a big difference between doing 70mph on a 55mph highway, or 45 in a 35 zone when all the rest of the traffic is doing the same thing - and slinging my car around a bend when somebodies family dog could be walking across the road around the bend, or where there may be a cyclist , or a tractor, or whatever. Or what about the private property that you'll tear up if you lose control? Did YOU pay for that yard? Those crops? That mailbox? The area on either side of a public road IS NOT PUBLIC PROPERTY - AND IT AIN'T YOURS. Or by stupidly trying to blow off some guy at a red light. You see, I know what the cars I have built can do. They get tested at the track. Same place my driving experience came from.

Thanks for the initial compliment....

But, i disagree, you can't kill a pedestrian on a roundabout if you're doing 15mph. The chances are astronomical. You see, if i lost control at ~15 mph I'd struggle to even hit a kerb, let alone go through the railings. It's a non-issue. By the time I've even left the road the speed differential is going to be nothing. That is IF I lose control near a pedestrian, which is wholly unlikely.

I would never do anything at all on a blind corner either. That's stupid...but naturally you assume I would...just because I said I do it all. Nothing omnipotent about it - I just use my eyes. lol

Yes, you are being hypocritical. EVERY SINGLE PERSON HERE takes a higher risk with other peoples lives on the road than they need to. Considerably higher.

Just by driving an old car with big metal bumpers at the front and no consideration to pedestrian impact safety DRAMATICALLY increases the risk that if you were to hit a child doing 45 ina 35 zone (because everyone else is) you're MUCH MUCH more likely to kill them. Even at 25-30mph.

That's an uneccessary risk you are willing to take. For what? Your own personal enjoyment? Damn right.

Risk for the reward of personal enjoyment is inevitable....we have a duty to minimize it, sure, but we don't feel compelled to stop what we're doing. I minimize it by not overtaking unless it's absolutely clear there are no junctions. I sometimes slow traffic down at crossings...not continue the same speed because everyone else is. I keep my speed down very sensibly in a built up area and if there are BLIND corners I don't do anything out of the ordinary at all.
In many ways, I see people driving about doing things in a much more dangerous way than I'd even consider. Traffic past schools at 30mph is rediculous....but it's a daily sight here by the very people that may frown at what I do 'out of the way'.

Just because I thrash about a bit on the roads doesn't mean I'm automatically a mad man. If we're doubting our own abilities...what the hell makes you think you're safe to break the speed limits? They're there for a reason aren't they? Or do you maybe analyse the risk and deem it acceptable? Like I do?


And it costs $350 for a track day here and that's without the additional costs involved...That's something I can afford occasionaly...but really, it wouldn't warrant the cost of having a fast car. It's road hobby for me or no hobby, especially with my company costing me so much money lately..... I'm certainly not alone.....and until my engine power, drivetrain and driving enjoyment is completely legislated out to suit the 'no risk by any means' ideal, I'm going to continue driving how I do. Not through rebellion or because I'm utterly nieve about the dangers...but because I, like everyone else thinks I've got a realtively good grasp of calculated risk.

[79PonchoUK]

I'm not out to make any enemies here - quite the opposite, I think these discussions are great and can teach both myself and others new things.

I've got absolutely no desire to injure/kill anyone. It would completely ruin my life. I'm not ignorant of what could happen in any situation, by any means.

I'm going to enjoy my car on the roads though. If I took great risks with inevitable consequences I'd expect to be frowned upon, but I'm not going to feel guilty for enjoying my car on the road amongst other people and I really don't think anyone here should either....not because of an international desire to be part of the politically correct group of experts in safety. No offense intended to anyone.




I also think there's going to be an imbalance of opinion here because of the differing dangers on the roads of our countries. The attitude to it all is universal though.

[wmhjr]

Thanks for the initial compliment....

But, i disagree, you can't kill a pedestrian on a roundabout if you're doing 15mph. The chances are astronomical. You see, if i lost control at ~15 mph I'd struggle to even hit a kerb, let alone go through the railings. It's a non-issue. By the time I've even left the road the speed differential is going to be nothing. That is IF I lose control near a pedestrian, which is wholly unlikely.


I'm sorry, but this statement is ridiculous. Losing control is losing control. Perhaps you want to calculate the power involved. A 3000lb car travelling at 15mph having an impact and stopping distance of 5 feet will have an impact force of 2.26 TONS. Now, I'd like you to go to the nearest truck stop, lay down, and have 2.26 TONS placed on top of you.



Yes, you are being hypocritical. EVERY SINGLE PERSON HERE takes a higher risk with other peoples lives on the road than they need to. Considerably higher.


You're making massive assumptions. You don't know the people here.

Lots or rationalization - IMHO simply excuses. Equating driving a car with chrome bumpers to "finding your limits" on public roads?

Just a suggestion: http://online.uwc.edu/academics/catalog/course.asp?cid=002699

:)

You want to drive fast in the twisties? Pay up and go to a track. If that's not worth the money to you, you're in the wrong hobby. Just because it's built to be ABLE to drive like hell, doesn't mean it actually GETS driven that way on a public road. Your desire may not be to injure or kill somebody - no question. But your desire to NOT injure/kill somebody is simply outweighed IMHO by more selfish motives. More importantly, it is imprudent behavior that is the root cause of increased legislation.

[vanwyk4257]

My wife and I have had extensive discussions about our son turning 16 (he's 13 now) and what he will be driving. I had a '71 chevelle with a very healthy 454 in it when I was 18...and it had 4-wheel manual drum brakes. That was not a safe car for me to be driving, thank God I never got hurt in it.

I have been driving a lot of different sports cars, mostly Porsches for a few years now, and have quite a bit of time doing autocross and road course/DE events as well.

Right now my daily driver is a Mazdaspeed 3 with a turbo 2.3 liter. Now it isn't fast compared to most of the PT cars on here, but it's still more than fast enough to get into trouble with. My son goes with me to every autocross I do, and has for about three years now. When he turns 15 he can start to drive during autocrosses with me in the car. I have lectured him at length about not driving fast on the street and getting his "fix" by doing autocross or track events. Oh, and there is no way he will get my Mazdaspeed 3 for his first car, he will get something safe and much slower.

I know I have become a much better driver after doing all of the autocross and road course events that I have done. I think autocross is a great way to learn car control in an emergency because everything happens so quickly you have to learn to look ahead down course and plan ahead what your line will be. In addition when you do overcook a corner or start to slide or spin you learn how to quickly correct it. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you can do it without having to think much.

I had a close call a couple of years ago with my '87 911 targa. I was running at a DE event with the local Porsche club at a local road course. We were doing timed laps on a Sunday afternoon. I wasn't too happy with my time on my second lap so I really let it hang out on my third lap. I was really on a scorchingly fast lap for what was essentially a stock 911 on street tires. I was coming out of the last corner onto the straight when the rear suddenly stepped out at about 90-95mph. Normally with a 911 you are hard pressed to catch up once all that weight in the rear starts to gain momentum. Fortunately because I had a lot of experience I immediately knew not to lift off the throttle and went full opposite lock on steering. I was able to get ahead of it and after a couple of "tank slappers" I gathered it up and finished the lap. If that had happened on the street I would probably have been dead, wrapped around a tree or a telephone pole, or God forbid, another car.

I think training is a big issue. As others have already pointed out, our driver's training in the US is really woefully inadequate when it comes to teaching kids how to drive. I think it's really left up to the parents to teach their kids car control, and given that most adults can't drive, we get the same end result.

I've already told my son that if he gets any major speeding tickets he will lose his driving privileges so fast it will make his head spin, I think he understands.

[79PonchoUK]

I'm sorry, but this statement is ridiculous. Losing control is losing control. Perhaps you want to calculate the power involved. A 3000lb car travelling at 15mph having an impact and stopping distance of 5 feet will have an impact force of 2.26 TONS. Now, I'd like you to go to the nearest truck stop, lay down, and have 2.26 TONS placed on top of you.




You're making massive assumptions. You don't know the people here.

Lots or rationalization - IMHO simply excuses. Equating driving a car with chrome bumpers to "finding your limits" on public roads?

Just a suggestion: http://online.uwc.edu/academics/catalog/course.asp?cid=002699

:)

You want to drive fast in the twisties? Pay up and go to a track. If that's not worth the money to you, you're in the wrong hobby. Just because it's built to be ABLE to drive like hell, doesn't mean it actually GETS driven that way on a public road. Your desire may not be to injure or kill somebody - no question. But your desire to NOT injure/kill somebody is simply outweighed IMHO by more selfish motives. More importantly, it is imprudent behavior that is the root cause of increased legislation.

A stopping distance of 5 feet? Next time I do anything crazy in a car 5 feet away from somone, i'll change my position...until then, my assumptions sound much more reasonable than yours. It's fair to say though that we're no doubt both assuming too much about each other.

My reference to the child-unfriendly bumpers is WHOLLY relevant to the conversation. Yes, it is all rationalisation - that's exactly my point.

You're not really addressing my points though so we may just have to agree to disagree. Fear not, I'm not a mad man. I'm just not willing to blanket my life in such restrictions without seriously thinking about it. Like my driving (and no doubt many other people's here), I like to think that I'm at least switched on enough to enjoy a good drive as much as possible it without automatically being a danger. If you can't perform a simple risk assessment as you drive, then you're going to be a danger behind the wheel no matter how slowly and carefully you drive.

Even if we can, many people can't...you can't stop them.


Off the record (lol), I rewired my own house too. That's not allowed here. I don't care. Frown all you want. :lol: :)