68 Camaro - my journey of new parts and fun

[Chad-1stGen]

If you guys are like me you like seeing everyone's project updates, big and small. I've been fairly busy with my Camaro recently and thought I'd share what I've been working on including my experiences purchasing the parts, installing the parts, and driving with the parts on.

I've always thought it would be "cool" to get the AFX spindle since they first came out and vette brakes but in the past it was more about want than actual need (not that any of us "need" parts or even these cars, right?).

Anyways back to my "need." See back in early 2009 I took the car on it's first track day at the Streets of Willow Springs raceway. It wasn't my first time on a track but it was my first time on a track with my own car!

Here is me having a blast on the course:
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Everything looks awesome right?? I was having a blast but my car's tires were not! The problem is that while I had Hotckis springs front and rear, Hotchkis sway bar, and Hotchkis Bilstein shocks none of that fixes the problems with the stock suspension geometry. I was even luckier than most in my alignment specs with stock arms. I was able to get 4* of caster, 1* negative camber and 1/16" toe out. This did a good job of wearing out the inside of my tires on the street but couldn't overcome the stock geometry's shortcomings on the track as whitenessed by these pics from that track day:

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As you can see from the pics my 1* negative camber turned into unknown amounts of POSITIVE camber during hard cornering. This proceeded to have *adverse* effects on my brand new BFG tires.

Fast forward to the past holiday season when I finally decided to pull the trigger on an SCandC stage 2 plus kit. Around this same time I got a great price quote on new rims and tires from Jon at Driverzinc. One thing led to another and scope creep went into full effect. Instead of the stage 2 plus kit I went with the following parts from Marcus at SCandC:

- SPC adjustable upper control arms
- AFX Spindles
- SPC lower control arms
- Ball joint removal tool
- Fastrax caster/camber gauge

This meant ordering brakes and wheels too!

Jon from Driverz Inc hooked me up with Rushforth Livewires 18x8 up front and 18x9 in the rear with 245 and 275 Nitto NT05 tires. I'll add another post later about my thoughts on these.

Tobin from Kore3 supplied the brake kit. I wanted to go with the C6 calipers given their stronger design but *cough* form won out for me because I really wanted red calipers so I went with the C5 Z06 calipers in the Z51 kit so I could get the larger rotors.

What a shopping spree! At this stage all of the vendors above were extremely helpful in discussing various options as scope creep continued.

Now on to the receipt and installation of the parts.

[Chad-1stGen]

The biggest obstacle in obtaining the parts were the fact that around the beginning of 2010 the AFX spindles were still on back order. This didn't bother me too much because the Rushforth's had a 4 week build time which coincided with the best estimate of when AFX spindles would start shipping again.

Funny enough, I ended up receiving the spindles before any other parts. So I ended up having my wheels and spindles but not the other parts from SCandC which held me up about a week.

Once the parts arrived I tore into the project.

Here are the old parts coming off:
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https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890211_large-1.jpg

And we get down to the subframe bared and ready for new goodies!

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New upper and lower arms going on:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890216_large-1.jpg

AFX spindle time!!!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890217_large-1.jpg

Z51 rotors!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890218_large-1.jpg

The braked bolted up and bled. Time for the new wheels!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890219_large-1.jpg

EDIT: Almost forgot! Check out the pics of the differences in rotors
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890212_large-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890213_large-1.jpg

Ok, my thoughts on the parts from an installation point of view.

Let me start with the best. The Kore3 kit was how a package deal should come. The parts fit great and I didn't need a single other thing than tools to install them. All hardware such as bolts, clips, etc were included. Even little packets of caliper lube and thread locker were included. I give this kit an A+ for us shade tree mechanic types. I see why Tobin has such a great rep even though he doesn't post much on here.

Now on to the SCandC AFX package with lower arms and ancillary items. Out of the box these parts are high quality in appearance and bolted in fine. Now the nits that irked me a bit.

-Unfortunately at this point I still hadn't received the ball joint removal tool from Marcus at SCandC. In fact after 4 months I still haven't received the tool. So I had to use a pickle fork to remove the drivers side ball joints which sucked!

-The lower SPC arms have the bump stop located on the front of the arm. My stock lower arm had the bump stop on the rear of the arm. My subframe has a special bracket welded to the frame for the bump stop to hit when the suspension compresses. With the new bump stop location the stop hits the rim of the upper coil spring pocket which is already cutting up the rubber bump stop. Marcus said it was not a big deal but I'll have to keep an eye on it.

- The parts were incomplete. Not a big deal to a shop but as a garage guy with extremely limited space it sucks to have to go buy zerk fittings and cotter pins for the new lower ball joints. No upper ball joint is included in the kit so I had to buy new ones.

- Upper SPC arms BJ mounting plates are drilled differently than stock arms. I had to go with the cheapy ones at the autozone because the moog ones would not fit the upper control arm BJ mounting plate. The autozone ones fit because they have two oblong mounting holes. I assume they fit more applications this way and the SPC part assumes you will use the other. This was also a bummer because the moog BJ's use a larger bolt than the autozone ones.

Time for the wheels!

[Denvervet]

I found the same problem with moog BJ with the spc arms. I just used a dremmel tool and loosened up the holes a bit to accomadate . Worked no problem and so if I ever have to replace BJ will work again.

[Chad-1stGen]

When planning my wheel purchase I was really wanting to run wider front tires. I think all of us have been inspired by Carl's ability to first fit 275 and then 285 tires on a stock subframe. I had several conversations with Marcus at SCandC and Jon at Driverz in on this subject and they finally convinced me to stick with the tried and true 245 up front.

I also planned on getting 10" wheels out back since that is what I was running already with my Bonspeed Delta wheels. Jon convinced me to go with the 9" and that it would not impact the lip of the wheel because the extra width of a 10" wheel is on the inboard side.

Here are pics of the wheels installed and working. They are awesome!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890225_large-1.jpg

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Jon was great to deal with in going through the stages of purchasing these wheels. However, once I purchased them I had a number of problems (torn valve stem seal, loose schrader valves, one wheel not balanced and another with bad balancing - guessing not rebalanced properly after new valve stems installed) that required three additional trips to Jon's or a tire shop to fix. Jon was always willing to stand behind the sale but was never apologetic for me having to go through those trips that were the fault of poor work by the installer. I was lucky he was 1.5 hours away instead of the other side of the country.

These Nitto NT05 tires are NARROW!! Comparing my BFG 275/40/17 mounted on a 10 inch wheel to the 275/40/18 mounted on a nine inch wheel showed that the Nitto set up is a hair over 10.5" in width at the widest part. The BFG set up is 11.25 inches at the widest part.

Now I understand why there is sooooooo much debate about 9" vs 10" on the rear of a 1st gen. If I mounted these Nitto's on a 10" rim they would look terrible. The 275 BFG on a 10" rim looks fine.

Also both rims have 5.5" backspacing so I lost almost a full inch of lip on the outside of my wheel going from a 10" to 9" wide wheel. The 9" would probably fit without rolled lips but since my fenders are rolled I miss than extra 1" of lip.

I'm sure I could easily fit a 285 Nitto NT05 (not sure if they make em) in the back. I guess I'll look into that next round of tires.

[Chad-1stGen]

I've put about 750 miles on the car since the installation of these parts. this includes everything from windy canyon roads, to freeways, to the Run to the Coast event and Goodguys autocross.

Despite some of the nits I posted above I'm happy I made the changes to the car. With the AFX recommended street spec of 0.5* negative camber the car has much less under steer than it did before. On the street the car is much more "planted" on twisty roads and on/off ramps. I haven't noticed any bump steer either.

The NT05 tires are awesome. I had Mary Pozzi drive a lap at the Del Mar autocross and she raved about the tires. I'm no expert but she comes close IMO :p

Even though the tires are slightly shorter in front according to the online specs I get some slight rubbing currently on severe bumps, especially with a passenger. I'm hoping 3/4* of negative camber will eliminate it.

The Fastrax guage I purchased from SCandC doesn't work. The lip on my 18" Rushforth Livewires is actually 19.5" so the next size up tool is needed.

Here are some Goodguys autocross pics!
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https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890226_large-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/23346890227_large-1.jpg

No good pics duplicating the camber or lack thereof like at the SoWS in my first post yet.

For the costa mesa autocross I'm hoping to get a lot more camber but don't have the correct caster/camber gauge yet.

[CarlC]

Nice Chad!

It's time for another hit off the crack pipe and give the new goodies a real workout.

[AintQik]

Nice!

[68firebird]

Nice, I can't believe the difference in the size of the rotors, thats crazy!!

[DFRESH]

Great pics and detail Chad. Really looking forward to running again at Costa Mesa with you and all the guys again. I'm hoping we can all get a track day in at willow or somewhere around here in the next couple months.

Doug

[Chad-1stGen]

Great pics and detail Chad. Really looking forward to running again at Costa Mesa with you and all the guys again. I'm hoping we can all get a track day in at willow or somewhere around here in the next couple months.

Doug

Right on Doug! I can't wait for Costa Mesa and would love a track day. That same weekend you were talking about hitting another goodguys there is a track day at button willow. That damned wakeboarding trip is getting in the way lol.

EDIT: I was just thinking about how fun these events are not just because we get to drive the heck out of our cars but we get to do it with fellow friends and car guys. It wouldn't be the same doing it by yourself. That led my thinking to just how bad of an influence we are on each other. If it wasn't for these events and "friends" like you all on PT.com I'd have a lot more cash in the bank ha ha!

[Chad-1stGen]

figured I might as well throw my Del Mar autocross video in this thread too.

http://www.vimeo.com/11390681

[Andrew McBride]

awesome car! Love the wheels. Thanks for posting the pictures

[Rod]

:cheers: good job Chad

[Roger M]

That was great read. Thanks. You did a great job on your product/supplier reviews. most guys come on here and try to really blast a vendor if there are issues, but you just stated the facts... And that is something that a lot of folks need to take note of.

I might have missed it, but how do the new brakes compare?

BTW, your car looks awesome, before and after! Nice work.

[Chad-1stGen]

I might have missed it, but how do the new brakes compare?

BTW, your car looks awesome, before and after! Nice work.

Thanks for the kind words.

Regarding the brakes. First let me say that during my order preparation and scope creep phase of planning for these parts that I visited Tobin's Kore3 site a number of times and intended to get semi metalic pads over the ceramic. This was partly based on the following advice Tobin gave me in an email:


The ceramic pads are great for a low-dust, rotor-friendly pads, but not my first choice or recommendation for track use. Both the ACDelco and Hawk ceramic pad options that we stock are "EE" friction rating pads, meaning their coefficients of friction (CoF) are between .25 and .34. The ACD semi-mets and Hawk HPS pad options will be slightly higher dusting and wear, however they have CoF's between .35 and .44 (FF) which means they'll have better initial bite and release characteristics and higher brake torque values, but still very streetable.

Sadly, when it came time to actually order the parts for real I blew threw all the options quickly as I'd done it countless times already. This resulted in me ordering the Hawk ceramic pads instead of the semi-metallic which have the better friction co-efficient.

However, I didn't realize this until I was assembling the calipers to mount them up. I decided to stick with the ceramics for two reasons. 1) Run to the Coast was 2 days away. 2) Who doesn't hate brake dust lol?

For street driving I've noticed three big differences in my brake set up.

1) When beginning a drive my first or second stop, the brakes feel very weak. I have to push noticeably harder if that first stop is moderate or more. I attribute this 100% to the pad material.

2) My old brakes performed great for any type of braking from 1-6/7 on a scale of 10. However, for extremely aggressive stops I felt they were lacking. As an example I only locked up the brakes once in just over 10K miles of driving. That one time was after 5 or 6 tries to figure out where the lockup threshold was. It took pushing on the pedal so hard I thought I would either brake my seat back or the pedal lol. With the new brake set up it is easier to lock up the brakes (if that is what I want) and the more aggressive 7/10ths or more braking efforts feel much better.

To explain it another way. With my old brakes for normal stops everything felt great. For more aggressive or panicked stops I didn't feel like I was getting an increase in brake performance that corresponded with how hard I was pushing the pedal. I pushed harder and the car stopped slightly better lol. With the new brakes the harder I push the pedal the quick the car stops from 1/10th effort to 10/10ths effort.

3) The new brakes require more pedal effort in the full range of braking. I have the late 60's/early 70's vette 4 master cylinder for manual brakes which is a 1" bore. I however, have power brakes with a dual diaphragm booster and plenty of engine vacuum. EDIT: If I was doing a brake system from scratch I'd go with a slightly smaller bore like 15/16 or at least whichever size a stock c5/c6 vette is.

If I find my brake performance lacking in the future I will purchase the hawk semi metallic pads but so far I don't see the need for em.

[Chad-1stGen]

In rereading my thread I realized I forgot to include a discussion point on the SPC lower control arms.

As I mentioned previously during the planning states of this round of upgrades I really (really) wanted to run a larger front tire. The main reason I let myself be talked out of the larger front tire is that my garage is off of a very narrow alley and requires a 3-4 point turn with turning the wheel lock to lock at each point in the turn.

When I called up Marcus at SCandC to discuss this I told him I wanted the speedtech lower arms because they have an adjustable steering stop. Marcus talked me out of the speedtech arms because the SPC arms were better for two reasons 1) ability to adjust ride height with the optional shim pack and 2) redesigned geometry to recenter the wheel in the wheel well with high caster settings.

When I expressed concern over the steering stop issue Marcus said you could drill the SPC arm and add it if you really wanted one later but in the mean time it was really easy. If you are turning the car and the tire rubs then don't turn so hard or something to that effect. I laughed and thought this made sense.

Now that I've been driving a while I HATE not having a steering stop. Every time I drive the care I have to turn the wheel lock to lock to get it back in the garage and while I'm getting a better feel for how far I can go before the tire hits I've still rubbed off a large chunk of pain on the sub frame and on the drivers side there is a bolt heat wearing into the tire.

I was just under the car today looking at the arm and brainstorming on how to add steering stops to the lower arm.

I guess my point is not to underestimate not having steering stops.

PS anyone added them to an SPC arm before?

PPS. Purchasing the shim pack to adjust the ride height was a life saver! with the hotchkis 2" lowering springs already i couldn't afford to have the car drop ANOTHER 2" (1" from the SPC lower arm and 1" from the spindle). I added the shims which are supposed to add 2" to the ride height to get it back to the ride height I had before installing these parts.

Somewhere something is off in the measurements and maybe this is why I have slight tire rub up front when I didn't used to (besides possibly being due to less static camber). My garage has a steep lip compared to the alleyway and ever since adding the new parts my front spoiler will catch on the lip when entering or exiting the garage which it never did before.

So even though the built in drop from the arms and spindle should of been netted out with the 2" worth of shims my car ended up slightly lower in the front somehow.

[CarlC]

If it wasn't for these events and "friends" like you all on PT.com I'd have a lot more cash in the bank ha ha!


That's called ignorant bliss. The Pozzi's, Tom, and a few others have helped me as well to see the light, including the light shining through the big ol' hole in my wallet.

I agree with you on the good friends thing. I spent all day yesterday with two long-time friends at Willow Springs. We were all in the same class together and evenly matched. They were in 'vettes and me with the Camaro. We were the only domestics there, but we had an absolute blast.

[Chad-1stGen]

Awesome Carl. I do have one teeny weeny question though. Unless yesterday was a private deal why no heads up on a track day????

:)

[CarlC]

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

Let's just say I needed to fly under the radar on this one. Details in about 30 days ;-)

[Chad-1stGen]

Hollywood getting all mysterious

Ooooooh exciting!!

[Chad-1stGen]

Figured I'd throw a vid up from the Goodguys even today.

CP2_xwL0Sko

I'm behind on updates. I need to get the pics all setup to show some progress.

I came up with a radio adapter solution that looks a lot better than before but not 100% perfect.

Installed speakers in the doors

Been meaning to add pics of my modo innovations pedal covers cause they look sweet

Got the headliner installed. Car even has a working dome light now... woot. This was a huuuuuge thing for me because I've been driving without a headliner for 3 years. Car feels like a real car now.

AC lines were charged and hooked up but still working out some bugs. Cut up the factor AC actuator kick panel cover to hid the hoses being routed through the kick panel.

Oh and I wired up my cigarette lighter so I'm ready for the next speedstop challenge from Baer ha ha

[ill steez]

i REALLY like that shade of red! awesome looking car!

[SRD art]

EDIT: I was just thinking about how fun these events are not just because we get to drive the heck out of our cars but we get to do it with fellow friends and car guys. It wouldn't be the same doing it by yourself. That led my thinking to just how bad of an influence we are on each other. If it wasn't for these events and "friends" like you all on PT.com I'd have a lot more cash in the bank ha ha!

Aint that the truth! Lol!!!

Beautiful Camaro Chad!! Love the Goodguys videos, gets me real anxious to get my car finished...