A sad story, a little advice

[ProdigyCustoms]

I got involved in a situation today that made me think, I should say some things to my brothers in Pro Tour. Just a sad story and a little advice at the end.

On my way to the shop this morning I get a call from a good friend, telling me he has a friend in trouble. Long story short he is getting screwed at a shop restoring . Long story short the guy calls me after my friend tells him to call.

He tells me this heartbreaker of a story:

He tell me has a 69 Camaro convertible. He tells me he dropped the car off 3 months ago and made a agreement with the shop for $15,000 to do the car, P and B, and some assembly. The customer was to help, and did. Together the shop owner and the customer striped the car of its parts, and the car was bare metal striped during the first couple months. Five weeks ago the customer broke his hand badly and has been dealing with surgeries and everything else, and needless to say, has not been to damn concerned about the car considering he has been worried about his hand. This is a guy that works with his hands, so very understandable.

Anyway, the customer goes by the shop and finds has car outside! He goes in the shop and tells the shop owner his broken hand story and ask why the car is outside. The shop owner goes on to tell the customer that since he did not hear from him for a month, he took another project that pays more money, and has a hard deadline just a few weeks away. I asked the shop owner later if he ever tried to call the customer , and he said"f k no, it is not my responsibility to chase my customers around". Apparently the customer is shocked and could not seem to change the shop owners mind, so he ask the shop owner how he plans to settle up. The shop owner tells him they are even and he will consider the $3500 deposit he got, as payment in full for work done (the work done is less then $1000 value). When the customer challenges this a bit he is told to get his car out by the end of the next day!

So the customer calls me and 45 minutes I am at the car. The shop owner greets me and tells me how the customer will not do his part and good luck, I will need it. In the meantime I have to go through the shop to collect parts. As I wade through the 5 inches of dust on everything, including the 4 cars sitting dead in there, I can't help but notice what a hell hole this place is. I realize this guy should have never left his car here.

When you walk into a shop, and everything in there is sitting dead, like for a long time dead, except the victim of the day, you need to realize you will be in line with the other dead cars. I thought is was hugely obvious, but apparently this guy still gets work! To top it all off I see a old Impala in the lot half painted and ask about it. The shop owner is proud to tell me he had that car come in for an estimate 12 months ago and he told the guy $10,000. He said the guy that owned the Impala informed him he had a $7500 budget. The owner then proudly tells me he made a deal that if the Impala owner paid the entire $7500 up front, the shop would do the Impala. Well that was a year ago for only a paint job!

I met the customer later today and gave him the Dr Phil "What were you thinkin lecturer". The customer said he saw the dead projects and filthy shop (and I am NOT mister clean by any means, but this guys shop cleaned up would be worse then my shop on its dirty est day). He said it was all explained away, and he had no where else to go so he left it!

So now he is going to spend almost as much as the original quote (we are a few dollars cheaper then his original quote), but we have to redo what little has been done. And this poor guy is $3500 deep in a car that has to have what little work is done, re done!

So here is some quick advice, it is like this. If a shop is loaded with dead projects and one working project. Or if the shop owner seems to hard up for a big deposit, or ask for full payment in advance. Those are warning shots across your bow! Take a look around the shop, and ask the shop owner for some references. And be sure those references are their last few customers, not random ringers that just happened to be lucky and leave happy. If the shop is worth a crap, you should be able to talk to 95% happy customers.

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

i got in a situation like that before not too long ago ...but i kicked that guys ass ...and got some of my money back lol i hate people like that

[gmachinz]

Damn-that shop owner acted like a real ass if you ask me. As an owner, the last thing you should do is treat your customers like they're getting in th eway-he should realize that since the customers are what pays his bills in the end, he should do everything in his power to keep in touch with them-even if that means "chasing them around"...wow-I can't believe some people treat their customers like that. -Jabin

[LowBuckX]

HHHMMM I didnt know GPV Performance had Branches outside of Ohio..

[Jim Nilsen]

I was told back in the 80's that in my state it only took 3 people to go to the Attorney Generals office and file a fraud case and you were essentially out of business. Doors locked and the investigation starts!! :secret:

This shop sounds like it is one customer over the limit !! :box2:

Jim Nilsen

[gchandler]

I just want to play devil's advocate for a minute. Everybody needs to remember that although these cars are our hobby, when we take them to a shop that shop is somebodys business.

Shop space x Time = Money.

If you car is in a shop and you are not able to keep up on payments, or inform the shop owner of your situation then you need to rent a uhaul and get the car home. This will be better for both you and the shop in the long run.

All this being said, I do agree with the statement about the number of dead projects you see around a shop. If there are a bunch of cars in a shop that are in pretty much the same place and condition each time you drop in, then you need to be extra careful when it comes to meeting deadlines, and when money exchanges hands.

[MrQuick]

just wanted to let everyone know, that was not my shop.:screwy:

[Steve Chryssos]

I just want to play devil's advocate for a minute. Everybody needs to remember that although these cars are our hobby, when we take them to a shop that shop is somebodys business.

Shop space x Time = Money.

Someone should explain that little tidbit of wisdom to all the deadbeat shops with cars clogging up their floor-space. There are lots of folks who's payments are up to date and are still waiting. They've got your car. They've got your money. They figure they can do whatever they want whenever they want.

Myself? I waited until the work on my car REACHED my level of payment. Then I went in heavy and pulled my car out. The guy was shocked. Noone had ever done that before.

[Bill Howell]

I think that we all get caught up emotionally when we are dealing with our hobby/passion. Having been in business 20 years and having made this some mistake on a project or two, I think the best advice to anyone is to make sure you and the shop are on the same page. After you have had a chance to look around the shop and feel confident they can in fact do the type work you expect, sit down with the owner and let him know what you expect and listen to him explain what is involved and how long is should take. Based on that, and if it fits into your schedule and budget, work out a payment schedule,then let them do their job. A courtesy call occasionally lets them know you are keeping up with the progress but don't show up every day. Be prepared to send more money when the shop gets to the predetermined point of completion.The best way in the world to have a shop lose interest in your project is to miss a payment deadline. Remember, they have payroll everyweek too and if you drop the ball, they have to move on to the paying jobs. If issues come up, work them out then, do not wait until one party or the other blows a gasket. This is really no different than my business of building houses, you have to keep the lines of communication open or you are just asking for trouble.
The biggest mistake I think people make is worry about price and not look at the whole picture. Sure, price plays a part in our choices, but the cheapest guy is NEVER the best guy. The guy Frank is talking about is a great exsample of that. Now he is just out whatever he spent with the first shop.

[OHCbird]

Frank & Bill hit it on the spot- this hobby requires more than a bit of homework & effort on our parts (if you go that route). Unfortuneately, when the shysters smell an eager client, they'll do & say what they think you want them to say.

Good (great) shops keep things moving by two major things:

1. Having a good PLAN to start with- Your plan should define what you want done- down to whatever specific level you want (typically a problem area). Their plan should spell out how they're going to meet your goals. Don't screw yourself into accepting the 'he gave me his word' deal from an unknown. I'd suggest you only do that with someone you've known & dealt with for years. If a shop is unwilling to put down a plan on paper (which should include completion milestones & a good timeline), then that's your first sign they're not the complete shop you think they are. This is a big-boys game- If they're not willing to commit to a timeline, then they're not serious enough to do it right.

I would encourage some of our young upstart shops on this board to really examine how you do business & make sure you conduct yourselves in the highest manor- professional products, services, and presentation. There are many professional resources out there just for the aftermarket and specialty shops, starting with SEMA. Your clients are judging you by the way you speak, the way you clean your shop, and the way other people feel about you- both on and off the internet.

2. Knowing how to deal with adversity and change as it happens- 'cuz it does. Your plan should have goals for both of you- when the shop reaches a particular milestone of the project, you deliver your end of the deal ($$$). Of course- where most guys and shops lose it is in their definition of 'complete' and 'satisfaction'. If you're a perfectionist- spell it out up front & expect it. If you come across as being ambiguous, then expect ambiguous work (i.e.- problems).

The plan should have exceptions for parts not on time, weather, money delays (on both your parts), price changes, customer changes, etc. If it doesn't, then expect some problems- it's the nature of the beast.

Sorry to hijack the post & be so long, but this is a big issue with me. After working with shops of both calibers over the years, it's so easy to see why the 'great' shops charge a bit more- because they consistently deliver a better product.

[Steve Chryssos]

I think we should re-do this thread as a checklist for choosing a bodyhop and place it a sticky at the very top of the paint and body section. Then we may as well change the words "body shop" to "chassis/fab shop" and post another sticky at the top of General Tech.

I'm sorry I can't participate in this process because the checklist will contain words like: "Hunt, stalk, kill, pillage, tar, and feather."

...and don't get me started on car insurance companies!

[vanzuuk1]

Steve when You wrote that You "went in heavy" I almost choked on my sandwich, I just visualized "mr pink" and "mr brown" shooting up the place.I think you are a little bitter.
I agree -get it in writing ! I always leave a copy of "my list " with the person doing work for me. If everything is broken down there's not as much room for disagreement. Its also a good idea to ask around on cruise nights and shows, word of mouth spreads fast.You can also walk in once in a while to check on things but dont be the guy that haunts the shop either.(thats me) If you project that your organized and businesslike people usually treat you the same. If you come off like joe dirt ..

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

IMO i still he should kick his butt....it always works (even if ya get your own butt kicked lol) !!!! saves the bs

[Steve Chryssos]

I'm okay now. I actually learned my lesson with alternate shops--both paint and fab-work. Things worked out great. We can help others learn that handing over valuable personal property plus cash is not a decision to be taken lightly. In fact, I firmly believe that outsourcing labor is, by far, the most difficult part of car construction.

As such, I think it would be good if one of us came up with a checklist and others proofed it for objectivity. Then make it a sticky. For sure there are customer faults as well. It definitely takes two to tango.

[bnickel]

another thing to think about is sometimes a shop will give you a better deal if they use your car as a "filler job" my car was on of those, they had the car for about 8 months and worked on it whenever they were slow or at least not swamped anyway. bottome line is i got about a $6K paint job for a little over half that. so in cases like that if you stop in and see nothing has been done on your car for a while you shouldn't get upset at the shop owner. i have seen that happen before

[F1 Speed]

I agree with Steve. It takes two to tango and problems with a shop are not always the shops fault. It would be a great benefit to other members if there were a shop check list.

[Steve Chryssos]

Here's One:

1) Good work rarely comes cheap, and cheap work rarely comes out good. Beware the lowball quote.

[vanzuuk1]

the sign business has an expression -
quality
price
turnaround
ok, which TWO do you want?

[Bill Howell]

Another saying I have used alot and think is appropriate here is this-
"A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
Remember, as much as we would like to think,we are never the only customer a shop has. If you are, you need to run from them. Part of the whole process is planning and coordinating everything. It will be a lot less stressful if everyone understands that from the getgo. Without fail, the people that think they should go ahead of everyone are ALWAYS the ones you wish you had never dealt with by the time you finish your deal. In this day we live in where you can punch a button and the next day expect a package delievered to your doorstep, some of us think the same thing happens at the shop. I doubt any shop in the country has a majic wand so don't expect instant gradification.
(Now I am sounding like a shop foreman-sorry)

[c.schulz]

just wanted to let everyone know, that was not my shop.

Amen brother!!!!

Chris

[ViperBlue68]

IMO i still he should kick his butt....it always works (even if ya get your own butt kicked lol) !!!! saves the bs

:box: I couldnt agree more!! :box: But....what do I know?? :Alchy:

[toddshotrods]

I think the number one problem in shop-customer relations is poor communication. I have seen it a hundred times in the dealings of other small businesses, and been caught up in bad experiences in my own dealings because of it. I fault myself, and the other business owners, because we are the ones that do this for a living, over and over again. I know of shops that fit the description he gave to a "T". In fact if he hadn't described the cars that are currently there I might have thought it was somewhere near me!

Things need to be discussed in great detail, and put in black-and-white before one dime or one minute of labor is expended. I actually love to hash out the particulars of a project through email, even if the customer is close because the customer's very words, and mine are documented. I have had customers and clients change their position on me midway through a job, and it's hard to make them realize what their original intent was without some kind of documentation. Again, I take the blame for that because I was the professional that was responsible for making sure the process was as smooth as possible. Many times if I had been working under a written contract that had to be ammended in writing before the terms of the project could be changed I would have remembered why they were set that way in the beginning and never have agreed to the changes.

This simple concept would also have saved a few friendships along the way too, by keeping my friends from being confused over what I did for them as a friend, as opposed to what was a professional service. Then again it may have ended a few of those so-called friendships before they got out of hand.

[zbugger]

just wanted to let everyone know, that was not my shop.
Oh really? Hmmm..... Yeah, not the shop. Just your garage. Or something else that I could mention but you'd hurt me. :guilty:

[Protour_Pinto]

I can feel for the guy who owned the car. It sounds like he is a hands on kind of guy and wanted to be a part in building the car.

I can understand his wanting to be a part of the build and he was lucky to find a shop that would allow him to be hands on in the process. Many shops here in California would just laugh at the idea of a customer being in the shop area.

I think it could have been handeled a bit better on both parts. The owner of the car should have called the shop as soon as he got hurt and arranged to have the car brought home until he could pick back up with his part of the deal.

The owner of the shop should have called the car owner as soon as he thought the project stalled, afterall his shop floor should be rated on $$ per sq foot and a car in the only spot that seemed to be making him money was sitting.

When I started my project I was looking for a place that would allow me to have a hands on position and could not find one that would give me that. I figured I would find a place and set up a shop and do it myself. That turned out to be a big undertaking. I moved to the desert and found myself doing more on the ranch then working on the car. I started looking for some industrial units but the $ per sq foot was too high for a personal shop. I finally got lucky a month ago and came into a place that my friend was leasing for a Clubhouse for a motorcycle club. He was going to walk away from the lease because of his membership money woes. I told him I would take the lease and I moved in a couple weeks ago. http://vincel.home.mindspring.com/Shop/shop3.JPG

I hope the guy gets his car sorted and I am sure that Steve will treat him right. It was a lesson learned, Better now then later. I could see the shop owner getting the car close to being ready for paint then holding him hostage for more cash.

[87sstpi]

personaly i think people watch to many episodes of "rides" and those other lame reality shows . i know i have customers come to my shop with huge demands and unrealistic dead lines. and to be quite honest i love it when a customer shows up with a list in black and white it makes my job so much easyer. i'm just a collision reair buisness and rarely do restoes we do alot of custom paint work and thats about it really