Blank Slate--'69 Camaro subframe

[nkopper]

If you had your choice of a custom subframe for a '69 Camaro, assuming you had access to a mechanical engineer who could design and build what you wanted, would you choose:

1. Subframe based on AFX tall spindles, converted to front steer (like Scott Gulbranson's)?

2. Subframe based on C5 or C6 'Vette components?

I have a friend who is an engineer/fabricator for a race shop that builds pro-mod dragsters who can do either. I think both would work great. Both could be made to fit a 10" front tire, r&p steering, coil overs and a splined sway bar while saving weight. I already have the AFX tall spindles, but C5/C6 components are readily available. Advantages/disadvantages of each? The first advantage to the AFX platform is that the geometry may be easier to figure since it would use near stock pick up points. C5/C6 components would require a little more design time, but would it be worth it for a car that would be mainly driven on the street with occasional autocross and road race stints? Rear suspension is up in the air, but options include the usual 3-link, 4-link, or a custom IRS (recommended by my friend, but well above my level of suspension knowledge).


Nathan

[MrQuick]

Are you going to start from scratch or go off of a base stock frame?

I'd go the first route with further improved geometry.

Vince

[ArtosDracon]

When you say C5/6 would you actually improve geometry and just use the stock spindles, or would you use all stock geometry and dimensions?

[nkopper]

Vince--we could do either, but you're right, building from scratch would allow more freedom for improvements.

If we use C5/C6 components, we could use all stock components and improve geometry or build chromoly a-arms to our specs.

[killer69]

i guess the biggest ? is how far into it do you want to go?
the AFX/Chicane/tubular uppers and lowers with a Lee box seem to work pretty well on One Lap Camaro??? i know they have spent alot of time refining the system and we will be working with David and James to refine the components that are available off the shelf.
the Morrison/DSE C5,6 subs work great as well they have done all the research for that setup.
either way you wont be disapointed

[nkopper]

I guess the answer is, since I may be able to build a subframe for the price of parts only, it may be worth upgrading from the factory subframe. If it is worth the time to custom design a system using C5/C6 components rather than using a modified "stock" set up even with a custom subframe, I'm willing to do it. I'm thinking long-term. Will I be able to replace the AFX spindles in 10 years if something goes wrong? If I build the suspension around parts that cannot be replaced in the future, I'm back to square one. Corvette parts should be available for a long time.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I guess the answer is, since I may be able to build a subframe for the price of parts only, it may be worth upgrading from the factory subframe. If it is worth the time to custom design a system using C5/C6 components rather than using a modified "stock" set up even with a custom subframe, I'm willing to do it. I'm thinking long-term. Will I be able to replace the AFX spindles in 10 years if something goes wrong? If I build the suspension around parts that cannot be replaced in the future, I'm back to square one. Corvette parts should be available for a long time.


I'm with Blake on this one. The subs mentioned are proven to pull about a G in skidpad testing. R&D on a custom set-up is a slipery slope that requires people smarter than me (and ultimately $$$) to get just right without having to constantly tinker with it to get it finally right and reliable. Either way you go, you will be pushing the geometric 'acheivable' limits in cars of this era. What I mean by this is you are not building an F1, Indycar or even a Nascar class machine (I think?), so you will never get above the 'theoretical' muscle car performace wall - especially if you're a DIY'er. Even if I could save 3 or 4 grand, I'd still buy someone else's product.

BTW, I went with the AME set-up, but considered DSE and Speedtech very seriously.

Just my .02, and really what do I know??

[MrQuick]

I guess the answer is, since I may be able to build a subframe for the price of parts only, it may be worth upgrading from the factory subframe. If it is worth the time to custom design a system using C5/C6 components rather than using a modified "stock" set up even with a custom subframe, I'm willing to do it. I'm thinking long-term. Will I be able to replace the AFX spindles in 10 years if something goes wrong? If I build the suspension around parts that cannot be replaced in the future, I'm back to square one. Corvette parts should be available for a long time.
Great points but to make the C5 C6 suspension work as intended a full redesign and construction would have to be done just keep the geometry true and fit it into a narrow 69 Front...as DSE did.

Think about the down falls of a 1st gen frame.

The aspects that piss me off are:

front steer
bump steer
can't pull the oil pan off
gets in the way of tires
its a flex o matic

If you can fix all of that then your golden.

The fear of the AFX going away is legitimate as there was a recent scare but I am sure there would be some small company it could be passed too and I don't think ST is going anywhere soon. You can always stock up on consumables?

Blake, could you sell the ball joint inserts separately?


Vince

[killer69]

yes being that the ball joint inserts are really the only part that could posibly encounter problem we can sell them seperately.

[nkopper]

I agree, the major problems with the factory subframe are tire limitations and rear steer configuration, not to mention a more difficult coil over conversion and sway bar adaptation. Good to know that ball joint inserts are available, this could simplify the build immensly. We may end up doing something very similar to the Wayne Due subframe in Scott Gulbranson's Camaro. I like the clean look and it shouldn't be too difficult to replicate.

Nathan

[MrQuick]

sounds good, also having 2 sets or lower control arm holes can provide additional caster with the use of stock lower control arms.
Having provisions for a stock steering box and rack would be nice too.
Vince