Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap

[Fesler built]

With the economy so bad and times getting harder and harder for some its time that builders come together and stop the BS with these cars that are being produced.

I see all too often these cars that have a huge price tag on them and a build level of not even ¼ of what someone paid for it. We are fixing more and more half ass builds out there and its getting ridicules. Someone out there somewhere has to care that they are spending good money for crap.

It’s time for everyone out there buying cars to wake up and do some research on what you are going to buy or build. Whether you are going to buy a car or the parts to build the car stop going to the cheapest guy on the market because you don’t always get what you pay for.

The problem is everyone wants a deal and just because the economy is down does not mean the deal is good. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast.

I get calls and calls to go look at a car or pictures with can you look this car over and let me know what you think. Well no I can’t not anymore because there are more scam artist out there than ever before.

I had a very good customer of mine that was looking at buying this car. Look over the pics and let me know what you think. (NO WE HAD ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUILD OR BUY) I got the pics too late to say anything.

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Seems like a nice car, price is great around $35,000 no way you could build it for that. Drives nice, underside looks nice, paint is very nice, can’t seem to find any rust or bondo problems, interior is perfect, everything works.

So he bought the car thinking man what a great deal and great buy. He looked at hundreds of pictures of the car and yes this car was a full rebuild. Everything new on it.

Look at the pictures and see just how nice the car really is.

[Fesler built]

I have more coming just have to get the pictures loaded and will finish the story

[MrQuick]

don't tell me, its a coupe with a vert top bolted on?

The problem is Chris that body shops are body shops. They have been trained and taught that procedures go a certain way and that flat rate thinking will get you sub par work no matter where you go.

Most regular body shops still believe patch and bondo work is normal. I walked into a body shop that I thought was high end. Owner sat with us, seemed high end, quoted us $7k for a standard straighten, flat panel and paint job with block and buff. I walked out to the back shop to find them Por15-ing and fiberglassing a quarter panel. Not to my liking but normal in the industry right? Surprisingly yes. We walked out body shopless.

Remember Ned's Cuda job up north? That is normal work for a standard body shop. Very common to find.

If you want high end work body and paint as your shop, Prodigy and DSE we expect to pay $15-20k to get it. I am not sure the average joe can afford that type of work. But it all looks the same when the paint is on.

When in doubt seek the advice of a pro, even if it cost you a bit more.

Just to think, your customer could have saved a bunch of cash if he had waited for your advice. From what you saw from a few pictures.

Curious, what do you see? I asked my buddy and he says it looks cool.


Vince

[Fesler built]

Now to the sad part of this story, this car looked really nice and drove really well but the scum bags of today have really figured out how to take advantage of everyone so OPEN your eyes and know what you are buying.

They put bondo over every part of rust but just thin enough that the bodo gauges had a rough time finding it. The complete underside of the car was coated and covered and looks completely factory. The work looked great and the average person would not be able to find this stuff.

There are people out there that will spend a ton of time thinking up ways that they can take advantage of someone buy cutting every corner of a build to make more money. Hours are hours when it comes to building a car and if you are going to be serious about this in any way it’s time to stand up and put these people out of business.

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Yes the car broke into two parts all the way accorss

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Here are some simple rules for you guys to follow when it comes to looking into buying a car or parts for your car.

• If it sounds too good to be true it is, no one is going to give you something unless they are going to lose it to an EX.

• Check their backgrounds find out what they have done before and if people liked it

• If they just sell on EBay stay away everything we have seen from there is crap and every good deal from there has cost more than expected because of the scams

• Pull up the carpet look under ask for pics of that build area

• Ask for pics before paint if they don’t have them they did not paint it

• Ask for engine out shots if they painted it with the engine in you probably don’t want the car

• Ask for interior build shots see what and how they did it, I will post up some shots of what we see all the time

• Pull up carpet in trunk climb in and check all the rust spots

• Look for all panel replacement work

• Look over suspension make sure it looks like they have at least gone over it all and fixed any issues, if it looks old it’s not a rebuild it’s not a restoration it’s a quick fix to make a buck and a fast one at that.

• Check body alignment make sure the cars fits, check door gaps if they hit its not aligned right and that will cost you labor and paint to fix, check hood/trunk gabs make sure they are correct or it will cost you

• Check windows make sure they all work and no water comes in the car in rain, check seals make sure they are all new not old and rotten

• Check engine fluids all of them, remove the oil cap and check the oil feel it to see how old it is, check water, trans, PS and so on. Smell them to make sure they are not burnt

• But best of all use your judgment when buying a car, if the guy seems weird, strange or won’t answer certain questions clearly don’t buy it move on. You don’t need the headaches of a used car problem

• Now some of you can fix all this yourself so if you are up to it good luck.


I am just so sick of the idiots out there that think they can build a car and do it as good as the larger shops for half the money. There is a reason that guys go to big name shops because they in most cases stand behind what they do and they have a name that over time will let them know the car will still be worth something.
A great question to ask any shop that you are at is what cars go for that you build if people sell them. If they tell you that a certain car that you know cost let’s just say $500,000 and they sell it for $200,000 that is not a good investment. If the cars that sell get close to the build cost then you have a good builder if not then something is not right. Now in their defense not all cars are the right cars to build and some people just have more money they style so that can play a roll.

This same deal runs in the parts business and wheel business you usually get what you pay for so a $300 wheel is nothing like a $900 three piece wheel no ifs ands or butts about it they are nothing alike same with parts for the cars. If you think a guy can make parts for your car at half the price than anyone else on the market they are not good parts unless he is doing it from his garage and making no money. Not many people want to do that either. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR and if it seems to good to be true than watch out because you are going to have problems.

Maybe if we (builders and buyers) get together and work together and not against one another we can make this whole experience 1000 times better. Sorry for the long rant but enough is enough and everyone needs to wake up and stop buying crap.

[fbody_mike]

Wow, the car literally cracked in half!

It is a good thing someone did not get killed while driving it.

[Rod]

We have come across the same problems, I would say that part of most of the builds here START with repairs of previous work
(I.E. a car came in and they had cover the bottom of the car with duct tape and the under coated it and then on the inside dynamatted right over the rust?? on the floor??)
that was the main emphasis on having our own body shop now with the build shop to control that aspect of the build also
and you are RIGHT there is to much shoddy work out there for that cash in on the trend (if they sell on eBay only and haven't had a store front(brick and mortar) stay away!! they have no risk they pay there $1.50 to sell you a car!! think they care? they have no employees, inventory, no reputation to risk,

[6'9"Witha69]

I'd be showing up with a single jack and a cinder block!! That is terrible!!

[wicked68]

It is rediculous what goes on. I remember a guy asking me if I would sell my mustang at SEMA last year - I said - sure - he asked me - what do you want for it- I said - 350K. He said- no way are you crazy.

I told him - not really - its a special car to me. I then said - if you can wait I will build you one for 225k.

He goes on to tell me that he can hire his own builder and get it done for 150k. I told him - yes you probably can and you will have a car that will not be this good and you can drive it a few years from now because it will take you that long to get it done- test it and work out all the kinks. I advised him it is about 185 k in parts and labor wholesale and I would manage it and test it for him for another 40k out of the deal and guarantee it and that it would take me a year to get it all in and done and adjusted for him to be able to have a solid car. Its just not worth my time to f with it for less than that. I have to carry the cost of the parts and car etc and spend a lot of time and money on final setup and managed the shops actually doing the work which can be challenging in of itself (no offense guys ;) )

He still gave me that look I was smoking crack and told me he could get it done for less in less time. I bet he still does not have one or has even started on one. People are clueless on cars.

I know - because I used to have unrealistic expectations as well.

You know - all the awesome after market products that just bolt right on? lol

Its funny that people think a hand made production car is worth 300k or more but they dont think a hand made one of a kind custom costs that much.

[mc84_zz4]

Holy crap! I wonder how long they were able to drive it before it snapped.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

Daaaaaaaamn

[406 Q-ship]

OMG!!! I thought I had seen some of the crappest work done to vehicles. That is a lawsuit, it was represented as a driveable car when it was not. I'm sorry but at 35k (overpriced IMHO) I would go over the car with a fine tooth comb (I noticed the door gaps in the original pics) or at least pay the cost of taking the car to a trusted shop to get it on a lift and pull the carpets and backseat. If the seller refuses RUN! the other way. If it is too good to be true then it is, but I don't believe that was such a great deal even if it was a nice quality resto. Really what is a nice restored 67/8 V8 Mustang Convertible worth.....IMHO not 35k in todays market.

[buickfunnycar.com]

Anyone who buys a car on eBay sight unseen deserves to be taken by these losers...they are there just to prey on the unsuspecting.

[Kenova]

With virtually all of the good shops using aftermarket parts and panels, would it be feasible for SEMA to set up some sort of shop certification program? I realize that there are still people looking for that "too good to be true" deal who could care less whether or not the shop is certified, but for those of us that do care it would make life a little easier and less stressful.
During the last 6 yrs. (almost) that I have been a member here, I have grown to appreciate what it takes to build a quality car. It is doubtful I'll ever be able to build something like Bad Penny, Fuel, or the One Lap Camaro, but when I do spend my money I want to know I'm getting some of the best work available.

Ken

[CruizinKev]

omg damn!!!!!!!

[Rod]

You know - all the awesome after market products that just bolt right on? lol


HEY! they all bolt on after the 33rd trial fit and a few elongated holes and a little blood as lubricant :Alchy: don't worry its only an hour job, right

[dadto2jays]

People expect perfection for pennies on a dollar. I have to agree that there are more hack jobs than there are great work. Down here in South Florida I attend many car shows and you do see some serious vehicles but you see more junk slapped together than anything else. There is only one builder downhere that I believe is the real deal "Miranda built" other than them there is none that I can think of.

[Steve1968LS2]

This happens at Best of Show all the time..

Guy comes in.. want's a quote.. let's say it's a full tilt stip, fix and paint.. they quote $20k (just a number I picked)..

He comes back saying XYZ down the street will do it for $8k..

Well I'm sure they will.. but you will get $8k worth. Hell, on a NICE paint job you can spend $4k and up on materials. On a second get they just painted the clear alone was well over a grand.

But people buy on price and then gripe about the quality instead of buying on VALUE.

The shop has gotten quite a few re-dos and aborted projects that were gettting hacked by some other low-bidder shop.

cheap, good, fast.. pick two.. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

Another thing people don't factor in is that a top notch cut and buff can run 40+ hours

Does someone really think they are going to get that with thier $8k paint job?

[tellyv]

At my shop the last 5-6 cars that left here they've won just about everything you can win around here and at the shows I'll go through a half a box of cards, then on monday they call and ask ''how much will this cost'' and I tell them that its time and materials or bring the car stripped for a quote, then they hang up. I just don't ever see anyone who wants to spend any money. Like the saying goes you get what you pay for!

[Takid455]

Another thing people don't factor in is that a top notch cut and buff can run 40+ hours

Does someone really think they are going to get that with thier $8k paint job?

No Steve, they think they are getting that with a $4500 paint job. I will say I have seen some shody things done to make a buck. While the builder is to blame, people do need to realize that nice things cost money. More often than not, I get ' so and so can do for less'. Maybe so, but but I will charge you double to fix so and so's screw ups. I get people asking me for lump sum cost for driveline builds and custom work. They even want me to match some guys lump sum price. I wont do it. to many uncertainties. Once I see they have no money and are shopping for the lowest cost, I typically respond '100k would do the job'. this is for stuff that would be around 10k conservative. That usually shuts them up.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

[Steve1968LS2]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

Two things tend to happen in a build.. one is finding stuff that needs fixing that nobody expected. That's nobody's fault.

The other is "scope creep".. Customer brings in a car and get a quote (estimate) for a repaint.. during the build the customer decides he wants shaved door handles.. then he decides he would love a smooth firewall. Then maybe it would be nice to have the shop suck in the bumpers.. then.. then.. then.

Well you get the idea.

At the end the $15k repaint is a $25k repaint and the customer is like "WTF? I thought you said $15k!!"

lol

BOS quotes high.. in other words if they think the job will be between $15k and $20k they quote $20k since there's a greater chance that

A. The customer won't run out of money
and
B. There's a greater chance the customer will leave happy.

But I will say there are some rotten/shady shops out there.. The only two shops I will trust around here are BOS and JCG.. one is 80 miles south and the other is 80 miles north.. both worth the drive. lol

[jaybee]

OK, I get that this was a bad car and I get that there are bad builders out there but I can't agree that no one should get a car other than through a top-flight custom shop. Most of us would never get the chance to drive a cool, old car if we went that route. Some people are good with a 20 footer. No offense to those who buy those beautiful creations. If I had the money to have one of the premier builders do a ground up just for me I would, but it isn't an option. I also wouldn't dream of trying to screw a true craftsman out of his just compensation. I do all my own work, but if I didn't the only alternative would be to buy a car that was built by someone else. In my price range Fesler isn't an option, but safe construction from a knowledgeable home builder could be.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Two things tend to happen in a build.. one is finding stuff that needs fixing that nobody expected. That's nobody's fault.

The other is "scope creep".. Customer brings in a car and get a quote (estimate) for a repaint.. during the build the customer decides he wants shaved door handles.. then he decides he would love a smooth firewall. Then maybe it would be nice to have the shop suck in the bumpers.. then.. then.. then.

Well you get the idea.

At the end the $15k repaint is a $25k repaint and the customer is like "WTF? I thought you said $15k!!"

lol

BOS quotes high.. in other words if they think the job will be between $15k and $20k they quote $20k since there's a greater chance that

A. The customer won't run out of money
and
B. There's a greater chance the customer will leave happy.

But I will say there are some rotten/shady shops out there.. The only two shops I will trust around here are BOS and JCG.. one is 80 miles south and the other is 80 miles north.. both worth the drive. lol


Well put Steve. ****/BOS and Chris/JCG, I know and trust them both...

[wicked68]

nice cars are more expensive than most think.

I can tell you that ;;most;; shop owners work their butts off, its hard work, its dirty work, and they are not rich beyond wild imagination. Most are doing - just ok at best. So I would say most are not getting rich off the "wild prices they are ripping people off with".

Custom work is very expensive - its very labor intensive.

[elitecustombody]

I agree with jaybee, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a small shop building cars,some of the small shop projects can blow away the big shop's finished product,it takes some research and checking out their work in person. Most big shops have big overhead and in the end the customer pays for it,

There will always be crooks and butchers and naive fools with more money than brains, if they have no common sense,they should at least get a proffesional to check the car they are looking to buy.

That Mustang surely wasn't checked ,because putting it on the lift would provide more than enough evidence to stay away from it, because it would turn in horse shoe as soon as the lift or jack touch the rockers or floors of that rust bucket.

I'm simply defending small shops that do quality work,because I actually own a small shop and my customers get alot more than they actually paid for.

Alot of times I find myself fixing someone's half-ass work, and it makes me sick to see some of hack work.

Recent example,a year old Nissan GTR with small ding on fender and quarter panel was repaired and the whole side was painted including both bumpers,not one single piece of trim was removed, not even rear nameplate or the tag brackets ,which are held by 1 Phillip's head screw, there was so much dirt and fisheyes in the paint ,you'd get a better finish in the middle of desert sand storm, the tire dressing that was slung on the wheelwell edges wasn't even wiped off,let alone scuffed, I'm sure most of you get the picture. I've done alot of spot repair on brand new still in plastic cars for a local dealership, they also deal with a big franchise shop ,that had their SUV for over 6 months repairing side damage, in process of repair the vehicle caught on fire from idiots welding, that SUV still ended up at my shop for spot repairs for the damge that the shop caused, and till this day the dealership still takes their cars to that shop

Another example ,last fall I got a call from a guy ,that one of my Supra customers gave my number to, he was looking to buy a built Supra,being a Supra fanatic/collector/builder, I offered to build one for him to his specs,or if he gives me few days I could help him finding one ,but the guy had the patience of a 3 year old, needless to say,1 day fast forward ,he calls me to ask if he can bring his new Supra to check why it doesn't start, I get it in the air to check the stater,the power wire is hanging,lol, the whole underside is covered in fresh oil, crappy paint job ,even the battery got painted halfway,runs,trash,orangepeel, with poor attempt to sand and buff,leaving sanded and not buffed areas, poor fitting body panels,one big mess under the hood, speaker grille on door panels are glued on with some poop glue, Wal-Mart carpet pieces was just thrown in to cover the floor, radio does not work,right window does not go up, trunk floor has so much dirt,rust and gunk as some junk yard truck, radiator has rusty mud instead of coolant.

In less than a month I had to replace all A/C lines,because of crappy install of overflow tank causing the tank to rub through the lines and making a hole, replaced A/C compressor,dryer,expansion valve and pressure switch prior to that, because it locked up,replaced idler pulley ,replaced headlights because they were fogged up and cracking,

Here is the kicker, the guy went by himself to buy this car,paid $35.000 cash and didn't even bother to pop the hood, he even admitted that to me. So I think this kind of fools deserve to be screwed, I would gladly go and check out a car for someone at no charge and I offered it to him.So people like that should blame themselves first and the butchers second.



I've also seen photos of well known shop on here with not so great welds,but I will not point fingers or mention names

[MrQuick]

I've also seen photos of well known shop on here with not so great welds,but I will not point fingers or mention names
hey, those were mock up tacks!! seriously...

yeah, after all you had to say thats all I got out of it. LOL, Im slow.

I agree but should we criticize the journey or the destination?

vince

[mikedc]

IMHO there's nothing being discussed in this entire thread that wasn't going on decades ago.

Guys wanting top-grade work for second-rate prices. Guys buying cars for too much money without ever checking them out. Body shops hacking together rushed and sometimes downright unsafe cars, etc.

The only difference is that the stakes have gone up. The number of zeros on the ends of the dollar figures has increased, the expectations of good & bad work has increased, and the sophistication of both the scammers and the scam detection methods has gone up.

[elitecustombody]

hey, those were mock up tacks!! seriously...

yeah, after all you had to say thats all I got out of it. LOL, Im slow.

I agree but should we criticize the journey or the destination?

vince


LOL, all I was saying, that there are fools with money who will buy a car without getting it checked by a professional and should blame themselves for their own ignorance, that's all

There should be a law, that would help guys that got screwed by buying a car ,that broke in half is or has serious rust issues,which were covered up.That law should work nationwide

[KWIKND]

"Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap"

I think you missed some people that need to come together.

Magazines

Manufacturers

Photographers

Sponsors

Car Show Organizations

Web sites

The whole industry.

I made the mistake of reading articles in some magazines, seeing some awards from big shows then writing a check.

If you don't see a pile of build pics like all good shops are doing now..... big red flag.

Why does it seem to be taboo to call a builder out?

Is the builder's money worth more than the customer's?

I think a builder's history means something. If he is running his business the way it should be run a dissatisfied customer would be rare.


Dan

[tellyv]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

I understand where your coming from I build everything myself because that the only way I can afford and I trade Carl Wegner my labor for his motors! Thats were I also said bring the car in stripped and know exactly what you want to do with it, that way there's no hidded b.s. to find and if you want something extra expect to pay for it!

[BADVELLE]

I look at this way, it boils down to doing a job the correct way, regardless of the size of shop or the person that is doing the job. Big time shops are not the only ones that can build a nice car or in this matter, build with integrity. So, standing up or whatever you plan to do is great, however you are never going to be able to stop this crap until a buyer is more aware of what he/she is buying. I don't know if this person bought the car buy picture only, however it appears to me that by the looks of the pic's, even prior to the eventual failure, shouldn't the bondo areas been seen? If someone is paying this amount of money for a vehicle, you would think that it would be looked over by them and someone else in person, if they choose. After all, at least to me $35k is still a lot of money.

I just don't believe that every top notch build has to come from a high end shop. There are a lot of "garage" builders around the world that can build a very nice car, better yet do it the right way.

[1973tpi]

For me this is a hobby. I have been buying and selling cars in the upper mid west for 26 years, I also have been welding and doing body work for 26 years. When to tech school for both. I have worked in body shops and was a finish painter for Pierce ( they make fire trucks take a look in your fire dept. they probaly have one. ) I thing it's great that you guys are getting $200,000 plus for your cars and they are beauitful and high tech. But you could not set up shop here and do that never! Good body shops do'nt do complete paint jods or custom builds, not enougt money in it. When I do a car I do it for my self. And would never sell a car that I built that I wouldn"t take my family on a long trip with. After I get done with it I drive it ( I mean drive it, to the east coast or to the west coast and back). Sometimes I keep them for years. And have yet to sell a car that I have got my labor pay for. Some time I lose out on parts to. It takes me about 600 to 800 hours to do a car. Even at $25.00 an hour thats $15,000 to $20,000. This is the cars he sould have been looking for. And I feel sorry for him.

[Bow Tie 67]

My 2 cents: I cant afford the big shops, so I have taught myself the " how to " to go with my, will to. I do not trust others to do the job I expect. If, and thats a big if, you can find an " actual " mechanic / craftsman you will end up with a safe professional build.

I have to laugh at the word professional, as many shops will claim just that. But, when an average Joe like myself claims a professional job, the prospective buyer askes which shop did the work. :bsjerk:

[Finch]

I feel there is still risk in dealing with so called professional shops. They have the lawyers and contracts with fine print and hide behind Limited Liability structures. A professional crook can setup shop and appear to be top notch, with the way the system works he can take 20-30 people for a ride before folding, moving a block down the street and starting under a new name.

I am one of the builders doing it on the side for fun out of my house and can say that I have to look my customers in the eye and shake their hand on a deal. If they are not happy they will be on my door step so I cannot hide from it nor have I ever had to.

There will always be crooks in every aspect of business so the only way to fix it is a better educated buyer. Sometimes that lesson is expensive but I can assure you your customer will never make that mistake again.

[trapin]

Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast.
I know this is not your intention Chris but you're making a generalization here that rails against every small shop that's out there. If people were to heed this advice NOBODY would go to small shops anymore out of fear and they'd all be out of business; even the ones who don't deserve to be.

Square footage and number of employees don't mean squat to me. We have some truly great small shops on this board that I would be proud to take my car to. We even have a guy here who built a little Chevy II Nova that sold just a click under $200K at Barrett Jackson last year, and he built that car all by his lonesome.

Again, not trying to critcize you Chris but that quote right there alarmed me just a little.

[BuddyP]

Wow... this is one reason I wanted to build a car from frame up vs one that was already a driver. I figured the only way I would be happy would be to strip it down to bare bones anyway. At least this way I know how everything was put together and the condition it was in when doing so.

When I picked up my roller the guy already had qtr skins welded on, trunk pan patches welded on and floor pan patches fit ready to be welded. I ended up tearing out the complete floor, trunk pan and qtrs and put on new full floor pan, trunk pan and full qtrs. Just the thought of cobbled up overlapping panels, welds, etc. was going to bug me.

[colt zantop]

also remember....in certain situations...even "big name" "well known" shops have their problems.....I wont go any further... :(

[Tyler Beauregard]

Holy sh*t! That thing is cracked in half! That's even worse than the white car I sold you! (but not by much ;-P)

Tyler

[Finch]

Also lets remember the small shops probably contribute to a good portion of your parts sales. The Kryptonite car I just did has your hood hinges, trunk hinges and tail lights so be careful where you put your foot.

I wish I would have know your thoughts on the little guys prior to the build and will keep it in mind on the next one for sure.

[elitecustombody]

I know this is not your intention Chris but you're making a generalization here that rails against every small shop that's out there. If people were to heed this advice NOBODY would go to small shops anymore out of fear and they'd all be out of business; even the ones who don't deserve to be.

Square footage and number of employees don't mean squat to me. We have some truly great small shops on this board that I would be proud to take my car to. We even have a guy here who built a little Chevy II Nova that sold just a click under $200K at Barrett Jackson last year, and he built that car all by his lonesome.

Again, not trying to critcize you Chris but that quote right there alarmed me just a little.


Thank God, for a moment there I thought I was the only one trying to defend the small guys, because there are alot of them working hard day in and day out,and they care about their reputation,

I work 12-13 hours everyday and try to do my best at everything that I do,even if I don't get paid half of what I should get paid,

I don't advertise ,don't go to shows and yet somehow manage to keep my shop doors open for almost 20 years,and what I've learned over the 20+ years working on cars, quality work speaks for it's self and that's what will bring you work.

Sure,advertising works, but if you do shoddy work,you will never have a repeat customer or pissed off customer will never bring their relatives or friends to you

Stefan

[gearheads78]

If someone paid 35K for that even before it cracked in half then I am waaaay too cheap looking for 26K out of mine.

[NOT A TA]

Years ago there was no internet. Before the net, we only heard horror stories of low quality work from people in our local area and feedback about shops was a local word of mouth thing. Back then people also tended to sell cars in a more localized area so if someone sold a car they knew they were misrepresenting they also knew they'd better be looking over their shoulder afterward.

Years ago, if someone was "ripped off" in any way on a car purchase or by someone doing work for them there was a certain shame involved with having been "taken" so people didn't share their misfortune quite so quickly or freely as they do now with the anonimity of the internet. People just didn't share with everyone that they'd been separated from their money with little to show for it.

Todays world is different. Bad news travels at the speed of the internet and like the news on TV, bad news gets the most attention. The quickness with which people who feel they've been wronged post about it on the furums is surprisingly fast. In some cases waaay too fast, before there has even been any attempt at resolving the differences between parties offline. We've seen several cases where misunderstandings and bad communication were thrown up on the forums for all to see with both parties reputations suffering.

So is there a higher rate of dissatisfied purchasers or customers than before, or just a quicker, more widespread distribution of information about the occurances? Time for builders to come together? To what end? Stop this crap? Not gonna happen. The Mustang appears to be an extreme example of either poor workmanship or deception. There will always be people with very low standards and there will always be people trying to decieve people for financial gain.

Most sellers tend to forget the cars liabilities and expound on its attributes. The average muscle car buyer doesn't expect a SMOY car but also doesn't expect the car to be a total can of worms without being forewarned. When was the last time you saw an ad that said "vibration at 50 MPH I can't seem to fix" or " pops out of 3rd gear sometimes during deceleration, not sure why" or "Has some minor electrical issues"? The seller hopes to get rid of the car and let someone else worry about it. There's a grey area when it comes to these kind of things. Particularly when it comes to modified cars because some things might improve one aspect of the car while detracting from another area. An example would be suspension that allows amazing cornering but rides like a go Kart and gives you eye strain on a hundred mile highway trip. Should the seller advertise "Amazing handling but rides like a Flintmobile"?

How much info should a seller give? After all, they do want (or need) to sell the car. Telling a potential purchaser every little nit picky detail about the vehicle might turn the buyer away, so where does one draw the line? (think of the little nuances of your own cars, a little squeek, outdated tires with really good tread, quirky power accessories, worn brakes or suspension, etc.) I've talked several potential buyers for cars I was selling out of buying by giving full disclosure of any known issues up front. Did they go buy a lesser value car because I told them everything and the next seller withheld some info? In the long run they might have been better off buying my car. But I sleep well.

At the same time most buyers expect there will be some sort of issues they will find about after purchase. Of course they hope for the minimum, but how much do they anticipate? And how much are they willing to put up with before they think they got "ripped off"? The broken Mustang Conv. is an extreme case where there appears to be an attempt to decieve and the seller or builder (whoever witheld the knowledge of coverup) should be called out on it.

Pictures? No one should buy a car without having an unbiased person thoroughly look over the car in person.

As for shops, small shops are the backbone of this hobby with thousands and thousands across the country quietly providing exceptional quality and service. Without them a lot less cars would get done. Yes, there's big shops with well known names that probably provide good service (I personally have no experience) and do build amazing cars, but the majority of the services performed for average owners are single item services by the small shops. Yes, some of the small shops will do full builds but the majority of cars aren't "full shop builds" so owner/homebuilders (most of the members here) rely on small local shops to provide services they can't or don't want to do themselves. Rod shops, machine shops, interior shops, chassis shops, paint shops, etc. and even regular auto repair shops also get the call for things that require special equipment or talent and many do quality work.

Doesn't Mr. Stielow work in a shop behind the house? I heard he builds some nice Camaros.

[MrQuick]

Hey John, wasn't that you with the Egyptian Pharoe inspired roll cage?

Back yard talent will always have upper edge due to low over head. They can take their time getting stuff right, but remember that crap can hide in all corners.


Vince

[H2Ogbodies]

For me in comes down to loving what you do. I like to sit down and illustrate out ideas with the potential customer...for example,-custom center console and stereo/gauge layouts. Or, subtle body/suspension mods and how they can alter the look of a car...stuff like that. I am a graphic designer/illustrator by education but my love is in custom muscle cars. I communicate better visually so that's where I focus to get ideas out first. It's funny seeing people like Foose do it...illustration is a great way to come to terms with expectations on both sides. And, I also do before/after pics just for my own collection of work and customers like seeing that...if they know you value your past work, they know you will put forth a lot of effort on their behalf. I've been doing my own thing for a bit over two years now and while it's been hectic at times, it's been a lot of fun too. Best of times for me was taking a project that the previous guy was way over his head on and I drew out a detailed plan and exposed why the parts he bought was over priced to begin with, got him on the staright/narrow path and built an awesome car. This keeps me ahead of my bills. Worst of times was me doing brake jobs and trans swaps out of late model FWD cars to pay my bills. Feast or famine for awhile was the name of the game. Lastly, when all else fails, a custom shop owner/manager better have one helluva nice car to back his own reputation. If a guy claims to be able to build a 1000 hp twin turbo Camaro but only drives a rusted out Nissan Sentra...beware. That's my opinion tho. In other words, don't talk it up, back it up.

[NOT A TA]

Hey John, wasn't that you with the Egyptian Pharoe inspired roll cage?

Back yard talent will always have upper edge due to low over head. They can take their time getting stuff right, but remember that crap can hide in all corners.


Vince

Ya that was me, but it was a bar not a cage. I had rollover protection installed in 2 cars.

One was a roll bar installed (using the term loosely) in my Malibu by a moron with a welder. I cut it out. He was not a shop, just a guy with welders, (not a shop) that claimed to have done things he probably never did using skills he never had on his and other peoples drag cars. He said he was planning on opening a shop in the future but was a bull****ter and I should have recognized that. I asked him to weld in a Jegs roll bar kit and dropped the car off in 2006 and didn't get it back till 08. He did not initially offer services or try to sell me on his services at any time. Essentially I screwed myself trying to save money. The job was a test in the hopes he was good enough to work on my Firebird. Obviously he wasn't.

The second was a full cage in my Firebird installed by a small shop named JW racing. They did a very nice job and I would recommend them to anyone. They did exactly what I wanted and got the car in and out.

[MarkM66]

. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast.

So which is it, stay away or don't? If all are not bad, then the first part should not of been stated.

The majority of the people on these sites do this "out of their house."

So you just insulted customers of your stuff!!!!!!!! :machine:

[dkn1997]

One reason people will shy away from a shop with a big number given out goes to what was already mentioned: people deserve a general estimate of what's involved. A detailed estimate of anything that is cut and dry with stipulations on the items that can turn into a jackpot. Detailed, written change orders for anything unexpected that comes up that must be signed. This is how a real company operates. Procedures for changes, payment schedules, etc.. Too many shops and customers want to do it the old fashioned way, on a handshake and a kind word. They call up when then need more money to find out the customer is "short" and then it get stuffed in a corner or a year, or worse, it gets worked on and the shop falls behind the customer with money. Then they start taking down payments for new projects to pay the bills instead of buy parts for said project.

a yardstick of any project should be if that project was to stop at any moment during the build, would the shop or the customer be way ahead on the dollars? If the answer is no, then someone is doing something right.

I work for a business that does custom work, projects that start at 100K and go as high as 500k. People with this kind of money don't want to sign or do anything by the book, but a good business or shop will stick to their guns because if you conduct business the right way, it's better for all involved. It's so hard to run a business this way because you always get the "I gave you 50K so far and now you are making me sign a change order for a lousy 2K? what, you don't trust me?" well...no...I don't. maybe all you had was that 50k and you want me to finish this 150K job and stiff me out 2/3.

In the end, when the business part of it is not done right, nobody is happy. a customer goes around badmouthing what may have been a good shop or a customer ends up with a shiny steaming pile of poo that cracks in half.

[WEAVER]

I have put interiors in cars from the one man shops to the big guys.And have seen good and bad from both,After working on at least 300 cars thru the years,You see it all.There are a lot of small shops that do great work,easy to work with and show up on time.

[fordsbyjay]

I honestly don't know what to say about this because I have seen it go both ways. In college I worked at a race car fabrication shop and they cranked out some beautiful chassis etc yet I seen then send some junk out the door that I sure as hell wouldn't put my name on. It was always a case of $$$. If you want a $1000 job for $100 bucks then you are going to get a $100 job. I have seen some very nice top notch cars come out of peoples garages and some real junk come from top of the line pro shops. The name doesn't always mean ****. The one thing the little guy in his garage has is time. IF and that is a big IF he does good work he has all the time to do it right and top notch. I try and do good work but there is times when I get impatient and do something I later regret. The difference is when/if I go back and fix it right.

I think one misconception people have is how much time goes into these cars. If you are paying $70-100/hour then it cost a boat load of cash to build a nice car. We had this Camaro come to a club car show that was built at a local shop and I heard some guys laughing because it cost $145k. I am sure I have a thousand hours in my car so just do the math. BTW, this car was a bazillion times nicer than my car.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that my car was "restored" 12 years ago. Ha, they covered the rusty floor boards with tar gunk then tin and rivets. The glued the carpet down with silicon and undercoated the car to hide it all. What a mess that was to try and clean up.

[crustysack]

the sorry thing is that there is a sucker born every minute and 2 to take em. there are so many people that have a ton of money and really have NO idea what they are looking at, they see this classic car and think for $35k how can there be anything wrong with it. I'm sure the salesman was a slick talker and made it so the buyer thought he was getting the deal of a lifetime. As professional builders (not me but the ones on this forum) all you can do is spread the word about stuff like this and conduct your own business with a high degree of professionalism and your quality of craftsmanship will speak for itself and all the hackers will get flushed out. and if you are to stupid to hire a pro to inspect a car that you are dropping THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND dollars on then you are a RETARD

[BADVELLE]

The more I think about this thread, the more I see that there are a few idiots out there that give everyone else a bad name, just like in the car sales business. I also had a friend that bought a car back in tehW 90's, car looked really good, ran fine, very clean inside and out. My friend looked it over himself, crawled under the car, drove it, knocked around on the panels, everything seemed fine. Was getting ready to take his family for a ride about one week later, wife goes to step into the back seat and her foot goes straight through the floor! The floor floorplan was completely rusted out, it has been bondo'ed together, undercoated the crap out of it and new carpet put in. A few weeks later the engine took a crap. It is just really hard to trust anyone that you do not know, as someone said earlier, if it appears to good to be true, probably is, buyer beware.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

The more I think about this thread, the more I see that there are a few idiots out there that give everyone else a bad name, just like in the car sales business. I also had a friend that bought a car back in tehW 90's, car looked really good, ran fine, very clean inside and out. My friend looked it over himself, crawled under the car, drove it, knocked around on the panels, everything seemed fine. Was getting ready to take his family for a ride about one week later, wife goes to step into the back seat and her foot goes straight through the floor! The floor floorplan was completely rusted out, it has been bondo'ed together, undercoated the crap out of it and new carpet put in. A few weeks later the engine took a crap. It is just really hard to trust anyone that you do not know, as someone said earlier, if it appears to good to be true, probably is, buyer beware.

Which brings up a really good point. 2010 is 40+ years away from the original build date of most of these cars. Many were born and raised in a rust inducing environment. Unless you plan on buying a rust bucket on the cheap that requires full resto, or are buying a car that has no coating whatsoever on it so you can see what you're getting, or absolutly know the re-build history on it, you plretty much have to plan on rust and crap re-do along the way. Almost makes buying a car of that age a rebuild plan for the get go....

[406 Q-ship]

I have been within the custom job car market for more years than I care to admit too, I have seen great and crap work from the garage guy to the proshops. I know of one VERY well know actor that purchased a Corvette from "one of the top" Corvette restorers in SoCal. The car was an aerosol overhaul, one replace brake caliper and other three spray painted to match, the engine bay was coated in semi flat to mimick the OEM GM finish, the engine let go soon after the purchase.......this was a 40K car in the mid 1980's. Another 67 Vette out of this shop had a engine block repair (rod out the side) by brazed the broken piece back into place......not pretty even very obvious job too, this was a vette that the shop pedaled for 65K in about 1988. This is not new and will not stop anytime soon with the kind of money being spent on restored and custom vehicles.

[NOPANTS-68]

I think it's pretty ignorant to tell people to stay away from the smaller shops there Fesler. A "small shop" that I have some stuff done here in Sac. just won the nomination for Trick Truck at Del Mar. A small company with one guy and a project done on time, on budget, and a happy customer. It was sitting two rows in front of your booth.

Most of the horror stories I hear almost always revert back to some kind of lack of communication. This guy said this- this guy quoted that...blah. He said it would take this long.... Clarity, process, budget, and planning will always keep you from becoming a target- even if you choose a "small shop".

[rrstroker71]

I have watched this thread now for a couple days. Here it is Small or big if you do what you are contracted to do there should be no problems. The problem is as with any build they change almost daily. I am what they consider a small builder, 4 employees, 6 turnkey cars a year and about 4 painted rollers a year. Yes we have acontract, but we also TALK with the customer. No work done without their approval. Payments weekly. We do not advertise, do maybe 2 shows a year and we have been full for 14 years. So If you decide to pick a shop small or large, keep it in check and make sure they do what they say. We take documenmted photos of the whole project for the customer and us. Ray, Pure Muscle Restorations/ stripmasters inc. NW Florida USA

[Nine Ball]

I've been involved in this aftermarket / performance industry for over 10 years now, and most of the horror stories I can recall were a result of the larger shops. The ones who get too big, too quickly. The ones who keep accepting customer cars and money, but then poorly manage the projects and schedules.

Not the smaller shops. These guys tend to choose remaining small, working on a handful of projects at a time. They prefer a waiting list, and their customers understand the limitations and will wait for the quality.

Kind of arrogant to insult other shops based on square footage. Some guys, like myself, have a shop outside the house that is bigger than some "pro" shops are.

Tony

[elitecustombody]

Tony,thanks for your input and I agreee with you ,most small shops care about their reputation .

Now post some pics of that shop!

[Fesler built]

"Its Time For The Builders To Come Together And Stop This Crap"

I think you missed some people that need to come together.

Magazines

Manufacturers

Photographers

Sponsors

Car Show Organizations

Web sites

The whole industry.

I made the mistake of reading articles in some magazines, seeing some awards from big shows then writing a check.

If you don't see a pile of build pics like all good shops are doing now..... big red flag.

Why does it seem to be taboo to call a builder out?

Is the builder's money worth more than the customer's?

I think a builder's history means something. If he is running his business the way it should be run a dissatisfied customer would be rare.


Dan





Good point but the magazines will never call anyone out, they just cant put it in the books. I worked for magazines for over 10 years and they have so much BS going on its crazy. The builders need to stand together to try and get the word out about the hacks. I know everyone is not bad but if someone calls me in AZ and lives in Florida and wants to go to someone out there it would be great to have a connection or finders fee to get them the work because you know they do great work.

[6'9"Witha69]

IMHO, the title needs to be changed to "Buyers Beware" and the content should center around how to spot this kind of crap. Isn't that what this community does best? Help others learn form our mistakes and triumphs by sharing the wealth of knowledge so that maybe we can save a few new guys from going down that sanme road, and reminding the older guys to still stay on their game. Let's change the focus of this thread, and make it constructive, rather than continue to harp on Fesler for what he said, or why we think he is wrong. We all have our experiences with shops of all sizes, private sellers, eBay, etc. Let's put that all here and actually help "stop this crap".

[Fesler built]

I know this is not your intention Chris but you're making a generalization here that rails against every small shop that's out there. If people were to heed this advice NOBODY would go to small shops anymore out of fear and they'd all be out of business; even the ones who don't deserve to be.

Square footage and number of employees don't mean squat to me. We have some truly great small shops on this board that I would be proud to take my car to. We even have a guy here who built a little Chevy II Nova that sold just a click under $200K at Barrett Jackson last year, and he built that car all by his lonesome.

Again, not trying to critcize you Chris but that quote right there alarmed me just a little.


I think most people understand where my point was going. I am a small shop I only have 5 guys working on cars so that is small. We see this all to often and I am tired of people taking advantage of others like this. I was just pointing out that people need to be aware of where and who they take or buy a car from. Sorry did not mean to offend any shops out there that do quality work.

[Fesler built]

Also lets remember the small shops probably contribute to a good portion of your parts sales. The Kryptonite car I just did has your hood hinges, trunk hinges and tail lights so be careful where you put your foot.

I wish I would have know your thoughts on the little guys prior to the build and will keep it in mind on the next one for sure.

Brian the post is not after you so dont take it that way. Its just a watch out for the small guys that dont do quality work. I am a small shop my self and its just a check where you go before you go there. Not bashing on any shops just trying to make people pay attention.

[Fesler built]

OK let’s get back to the post, I am not knocking any shops out there except large or small shops that do bad work. I worded that wrong and please stop treating me like I am pointing the fingers at you. This post is to make people aware of what is going on out there. If you have a great shop people know if you have a bad shop people need to know. That is what this post is about its not pointing fingers here its calling out the facts. I mean don’t take your car to small shops that don’t have anything to show you, that don’t have anyone to talk to about what they have done in the past, if they can’t show you pictures of builds its probably not a good place to spend your money. You need to see all aspects of a build before you take your car to any shop period.

Get references and call them and find out how there build went that’s it simple and easy do your background work and check out what they do and how it looks. Most of the time you can tell how someone is by how they act about the build and can see right up front that you don’t want to do business there. The big shops charge more because they have employees that they have to pay taxes and insurance on so it cost more to run the shop they also have taxes and high insurance rates as well to cover so they have to charge higher rates to keep the doors open. I only have 5 guys working on cars and over 15 employees working with our companies so I am in the middle. I am a small shop in comparison to most shops out there but I know the work that comes out of my shop is top notch because I care.

This post was not started to pick on any small shop out there only the guys that do bad work. If you think it’s about you then maybe you should think about your work ethics. I like everyone else up here needs small shops to move products and in no way would I rip on them. If you build crap cars I don’t want my products on them if you build kick ass cars I would love to be a part of them it’s that simple. I don’t care if you have 1 guy or 10 guys building cars. If you do good work I am not talking about you so stop taking it personal. It’s about bad work and sorry I worded it the way I did I just wanted to get a point out there and let people know that most of the single guys selling on EBAY or Barrett Jackson here and there are out to get your money and that’s it.

[parsonsj]

Chris,

Just a suggestion, but you can go back and edit your original post to say what you meant. That might help get your thread back on track.

jp

[Fesler built]

Chris,

Just a suggestion, but you can go back and edit your original post to say what you meant. That might help get your thread back on track.

jp


I just reread what everyone is having a hard time with and here it is. this is everything I said and in no way shape or form am I picking on small shops if you do good work its not about you.

"The problem is everyone wants a deal and just because the economy is down does not mean the deal is good. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast."

I dont really see how I picked on anyone that is on this site, if they build quality cars they are not what we are talking about here. Everyone needs to stop reading into things and just go with the post. I no way shape or form picked on a small shop here. It is about the guys on EBAY trying to sell cars that they put together half ass period nothing more to read into it. So if you are one of those guys doing this it is about you and go find somehting else to do. You have no buisness building cars. If you are a small shop in a back yard or a guy that has a small shop its not about you so stop reading into it trying to find something to fight about.

[Fesler built]

Chris,

Just a suggestion, but you can go back and edit your original post to say what you meant. That might help get your thread back on track.

jp


So to clear it up I did not get off track for some reason some of you decided to read things into this. If you do good work keep it up and help people find the idots out there that are screwing people if you see a car on EBAY that you have looked at let people know that it is crap. If its a great car let people know that as well, if we work together on this we can help it get better.

[trapin]

So to clear it up I did not get off track for some reason some of you decided to read things into this.
I think what got it off track Chris was the use of the term "small shops" and even though you may only have 5 guys working for you, you are not considered a small shop by many here. Again....I know it was not your intention to insult anyone, why would you do that? My response was merely meant as a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak. After 10 years on this board I've learned to proof-read my threads several times not just for grammer but for anything that might get misconstrued before posting. I've been flamed myself on this board a few times for not doing that so I know what it's like.

I get the original intent of your post though, and you are correct. People do need to be more diligent when inspecting vehicles before purchase.

[68fusion]

after we fix this problem we'll tackle world hunger, mid east conflict and fix health care.....

live by a few rules....

buyer beware

good work is not cheap
and cheap work is not good



disclaimer: we are a small shop and do good work!

Vince
www.customclassicsandrestorations.com (http://www.customclassicsandrestorations.com)

[Fesler built]

I think what got it off track Chris was the use of the term "small shops" and even though you may only have 5 guys working for you, you are not considered a small shop by many here. Again....I know it was not your intention to insult anyone, why would you do that? My response was merely meant as a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak. After 10 years on this board I've learned to proof-read my threads several times not just for grammer but for anything that might get misconstrued before posting. I've been flamed myself on this board a few times for not doing that so I know what it's like.

I get the original intent of your post though, and you are correct. People do need to be more diligent when inspecting vehicles before purchase.

Yes Tony but I did not say small shop I just said the following "The problem is everyone wants a deal and just because the economy is down does not mean the deal is good. Stop going to these guys that sell cars out of their house or that build them on the side out of their house for fun. Not all guys that do this are bad but with more and more cars coming up like the ones pictured here and this one is the worst I have seen yet it’s getting bad and bad fast."

someone else said I was dissing small shops and I didnt. I would not do that because even though I consider myself still small at one time I was really small with a one man deal so I understand where they are coming from. I get your point and would never rip on a shop unless i know they did bad work. But thanks for the tap:)

[AintQik]

I constantly get hammered on by people for what I've got into my 67. I do most my own work, but I wanted a very slick paint job and I wanted to the body razor straight. I did my homework and found somebody who could do it. It's not cheap. I've spent $18k in body and paint, and it still has issues, but I can live with them and its what I'm comfortable spending. My boss had the nerve to ask me, don't you love those people, how much my paint cost and I told her. She almost fainted. When she asked why, I didn't feel like explaining but only said cause it looks better than your 2009 Lexus. People amaze me. Of course Johnny, Joey Sarah can get it done cheaper. I get cars all the time that are so screwed up I won't touch them. And, I'm a guy working in his garage. When people ask me how much it would cost to build them my car they laugh. Most have no clue. Fewer have money and no sense, but its those I feel really bad for.

Guy who buys and sells all day long gets "blingy, flashy" cars and sells them at BJ and those places. He sends them halfway across the country to my body guy to straighten them up from various hacks. I get to see a lot of them. While none have split in half, some have been pretty stupid. I saw a 69 that was going to BJ with 20s on it. Slammed, looked pretty good from 20 feet. The owner of my body shop is watching me go over it with this huge grin on his face. I say, "please god tell me you didn't build this". He laughs and says of course not. No body panel lined up. It had the subframe out of some car that was close, but they had to cut up body mounts, bumper brackets and fender holes to get it close enough to go together. Wouldn't it be cheaper to get the right subframe? Or, were they too stupid to know it was wrong. The car would not turn. Seriuously, you could not turn the wheel without cathcing a tire and pulling a fender off. My guy did what he could but it was too far gone.


It sold for $60k.

If a-holes will buy junk, then there will still be junk for sale. Some idiot is pulling up to the golf course in his new toy impressing his friends. Nobody is going to stop building junk when uneducated people will buy it. It's like anything else. I'm pretty pissed because I lost a good hobby. I can no longer go buy a 66 Chevelle for under $5k because everyone and their brother thinks its worth $40k. People with money and no brains are buying crap and driving up prices. When shops can continue to get away with selling crap, then they will.

Chris is right, the only thing to stop it is education. Some cars are worth $300k, but some only sell for that much. People need to get a clue. I cringe everytime I go to a car show lately.

[Fesler built]

I constantly get hammered on by people for what I've got into my 67. I do most my own work, but I wanted a very slick paint job and I wanted to the body razor straight. I did my homework and found somebody who could do it. It's not cheap. I've spent $18k in body and paint, and it still has issues, but I can live with them and its what I'm comfortable spending. My boss had the nerve to ask me, don't you love those people, how much my paint cost and I told her. She almost fainted. When she asked why, I didn't feel like explaining but only said cause it looks better than your 2009 Lexus. People amaze me. Of course Johnny, Joey Sarah can get it done cheaper. I get cars all the time that are so screwed up I won't touch them. And, I'm a guy working in his garage. When people ask me how much it would cost to build them my car they laugh. Most have no clue. Fewer have money and no sense, but its those I feel really bad for.

Guy who buys and sells all day long gets "blingy, flashy" cars and sells them at BJ and those places. He sends them halfway across the country to my body guy to straighten them up from various hacks. I get to see a lot of them. While none have split in half, some have been pretty stupid. I saw a 69 that was going to BJ with 20s on it. Slammed, looked pretty good from 20 feet. The owner of my body shop is watching me go over it with this huge grin on his face. I say, "please god tell me you didn't build this". He laughs and says of course not. No body panel lined up. It had the subframe out of some car that was close, but they had to cut up body mounts, bumper brackets and fender holes to get it close enough to go together. Wouldn't it be cheaper to get the right subframe? Or, were they too stupid to know it was wrong. The car would not turn. Seriuously, you could not turn the wheel without cathcing a tire and pulling a fender off. My guy did what he could but it was too far gone.


It sold for $60k.

If a-holes will buy junk, then there will still be junk for sale. Some idiot is pulling up to the golf course in his new toy impressing his friends. Nobody is going to stop building junk when uneducated people will buy it. It's like anything else. I'm pretty pissed because I lost a good hobby. I can no longer go buy a 66 Chevelle for under $5k because everyone and their brother thinks its worth $40k. People with money and no brains are buying crap and driving up prices. When shops can continue to get away with selling crap, then they will.

Chris is right, the only thing to stop it is education. Some cars are worth $300k, but some only sell for that much. People need to get a clue. I cringe everytime I go to a car show lately.


This is what this post is about guys who knows the difference and have great input. Thanks

[DaviRotten]

Jus as many shops turn out jus as many **** cars as the average Joe with his driveway builds.

[MrQuick]

Jus as many shops turn out jus as many **** cars as the average Joe with his driveway builds.
ah but the shops should know better. Most driveway guys don't.


Vince

[zbugger]

ah but the shops should know better. Most garage guys don't.


Vince
Vince, he said Driveway. Not garage. I think me means me....

[MrQuick]

I thought you where the gravel walk way guy. LOL

j/k but not really.


vince

[DaviRotten]

Vince, he said Driveway. Not garage. I think me means me....

I dont mean anyone on here.. More power to the guy that teaches himself in his driveway and turns out a quality car.. Thats what hotrodding is all about for me.. The lifestyle didnt start because some rich guy had a shop build him a 32 to run on the salts.

[Fesler built]

I dont mean anyone on here.. More power to the guy that teaches himself in his driveway and turns out a quality car.. Thats what hotrodding is all about for me.. The lifestyle didnt start because some rich guy had a shop build him a 32 to run on the salts.

Correct there is nothing wrong with doing things from your house, I use to do that for over 10 years. Some bitchen cars come from home garages and there is nothing wrong with that. My only concern is to show people what to look for in builds. The people that do the quick car to sell because they see what things are going for need to be shut down and if any shops are doing the same maybe a post section should be started to warn people where to go in each state and what to stay away from. Obviously we can’t tell if every shop out there does great work but if we all start giving input we can learn who not to go to.

[buck19]

Telly/Taki - as a consumer going through a build, I can appreciate that it is sometimes impossible to quote a custom job. Too many variables. But at the same time I work for a living just like you. Where possible, I'd like to know what the cost of certaiin 'quotable' phases of a job would be before starting. I think a lot of guys would.

Certainly, you cannot quote rust repair when you can't even see it.

Definately can't quote custom one off body mods.

But I do believe there are many aspects to building parts of a car - like a complete motor, or a routine, commercially available part install where it can be bid with a plan. Sometimes even a range of costs (i.e. low/high) will do.

What I won't do, is show up with my car at a shop and leave a blank check, T&M to go to town. I just can't afford it, and want to know what I'm getting myself into. I think that's fair. And I'm not being cheap, just a good buyer. I also don't think it's fair of a shop owner to expect me to do a blank check deal. Too many opportunities for miscommunication and ill will.

I was reading a build the other day, the guy spent 22 months and 100g's for paint and body work. The finished product looked like a nicely restored, normal Camaro to me. Reading his website, I got the impression he felt taken. I don't ever wanna be that guy...

I mean all due respect and I'm sure you guys do great work. I'm just giving you a consumer's opinion on one aspect of this hobby --

Ron

Excellent comment! All of these builders that live and die by time and materials is pathetic. The learning curve is needed for all of the owners that have the money, car, parts, and desire to build these cars. They need to learn that time and material price gouging, learn as you get paid builders, should not be used. Demand lump sum pricing from the purported experienced builders. That is why you chose an "experienced" builder in the first place. Anyone could build a car getting paid to learn on someone elses dime. If you are experienced builders, then rely on your experience and give fair, lump sum pricing to earn business. You can't be in business without risk. this industry is no different than custom home building. T&M left the general contracting building industry decades ago when home owners got educated and competive capitalism prevailed. Honest builders with experience and good intentions need to provide realistic lump sum build pricing.

[PT Sportwagon]

With virtually all of the good shops using aftermarket parts and panels, would it be feasible for SEMA to set up some sort of shop certification program? I realize that there are still people looking for that "too good to be true" deal who could care less whether or not the shop is certified, but for those of us that do care it would make life a little easier and less stressful.
Ken

Well the car audio industry has the MECP( mobile electronics certification program) Which I personally think is crap. While the program has the right idea. What happens after the installer passes the test and becomes certified. I had work down on my 1990 Aerostar car audio compititon car. I didn't have time nor the place to do it myself. So I had a " Certified" shop do an alarm install. Fast forward, 4 years. 1996. The alarm is starting to give me trouble so I pick up a new one with remote start and newer features that my current alarm. I deciede to see about getting the current one working for a week or so untill I have time to install my new alarm. upon diging under the dash I find every connection just twisted and taped. To include the starter kill. I ripped every thing out and installed my new alarm system the following weekend. This shoddy work was done by a certified shop.
Since then I do ALL my own work unless I personally know the persons work and trust them. In car audio circles is about 3-4 people in the country. I also do all my own automotive work too. I don't trust just anyone with my vehicles.
I don't think a certification program would work with body shops, whose to monitor them continualy to make sure they keep up the " certifiable " work. Yes, everyone cuts a corner now and again it is human nature. But when it comes to safety ( like the mustang above) you don't cut corners unless you are a shady person who has no business working on a car, period.

Tim

[zipsimons]

I think most people understand where my point was going. I am a small shop I only have 5 guys working on cars so that is small. We see this all to often and I am tired of people taking advantage of others like this. I was just pointing out that people need to be aware of where and who they take or buy a car from. Sorry did not mean to offend any shops out there that do quality work.

If someone is offended by this then THEY are the very problem! A lot of it has to do with the whole auction craze. So many shops think it is an "easier" way to make money and hack something together that will last just long enough to be sold. I built my Chevelle RS1 as an advertisement for the shop I just opened. I had over 1000 hours of my personal time into it and that was with subbing out the final body and paint, motor install, and chassis assembly! I put $1300 in my pocket after it sold. That equates to $1.30 per hour... I could not be happier about it! I did not build this car for profit but to earn a position amongst reputable builders. There were problems with the mechanical work that I subbed out after the sale and I personally warrantied every bit of it. Our mission at Street Metal Concepts is to give people what they deserve for giving us the honor to work on their cars. I had a guy who wanted to build 3 cars as our first job but to flip! I turned it down. I build cars for owners, not sellers. Thank you Chris for brining this topic up and raising awareness within the industry. We are actually going to start holding workshops at or facility for free, to educate the people who may not be able to afford us, on proper procedures and methods of restoration and refinishing We are hoping to eventually spoil it for everyone who is ripping off innocent people!

Thanks

[riles]

If someone is offended by this then THEY are the very problem! A lot of it has to do with the whole auction craze. So many shops think it is an "easier" way to make money and hack something together that will last just long enough to be sold. I built my Chevelle RS1 as an advertisement for the shop I just opened. I had over 1000 hours of my personal time into it and that was with subbing out the final body and paint, motor install, and chassis assembly! I put $1300 in my pocket after it sold. That equates to $1.30 per hour... I could not be happier about it! I did not build this car for profit but to earn a position amongst reputable builders. There were problems with the mechanical work that I subbed out after the sale and I personally warrantied every bit of it. Our mission at Street Metal Concepts is to give people what they deserve for giving us the honor to work on their cars. I had a guy who wanted to build 3 cars as our first job but to flip! I turned it down. I build cars for owners, not sellers. Thank you Chris for brining this topic up and raising awareness within the industry. We are actually going to start holding workshops at or facility for free, to educate the people who may not be able to afford us, on proper procedures and methods of restoration and refinishing We are hoping to eventually spoil it for everyone who is ripping off innocent people!

Thanks
Boy was this a resurrected post.

What a great idea. Thank you for looking out for us little guys.
I personally make a surprise visit to any shop that will work or is working on my cars. If they have an issue with it , like the bullsh!+ comment of insurance regulations do not allow me in the shop, I go elsewhere. If a person takes pride in his shop he is more likely to take pride in his work.

[zipsimons]

Boy was this a resurrected post.

What a great idea. Thank you for looking out for us little guys.
I personally make a surprise visit to any shop that will work or is working on my cars. If they have an issue with it , like the bullsh!+ comment of insurance regulations do not allow me in the shop, I go elsewhere. If a person takes pride in his shop he is more likely to take pride in his work.

All visits are welcomed here and we would love to show any customer how and why we are doing any procedure during their build. Our shop insurance covers you, your car, and any parts that may have been purchased during the build for mock-up that may have to be stored until assembly. It is specifically designed to cater to full scale builds. We have also built giant storage containers to protect said items while not in use.