Is Ford engineering Hondas?

[Ishmael]

I heard that Ford was responsible for the engineering of most honda engines now. Is that a rumour or is there some fact in there? That would seem like reverse engineering to me.

[silver69camaro]

Where did you hear that? Honda has a pretty serious R&D program and I could not imagine any benefit from outsourcing engine development to Ford.

And how would that be reverse engineering? Honda engines aren't anything special, if that's what you mean.

[Ishmael]

I heard it from the science guy at my school. They said the Hondas built in the US weren't really imports as Ford was doing most of the engineering. Don't know where they got the info from.

[novaderrik]

well, if it's built here, then it isn't technically an "import"...
but i doubt if Honda is having Ford do any engineering for them. but maybe they are collaborating on something, like Toyota has worked with GM and Mitsubishi has worked with Chrysler..

[crustysack]

Ford engineering for Honda- dont make me laugh- I love American cars and have an F150 but cmon Honda engines power the world- Ford builds cars and trucks- Honda makes cars,trucks,generators,lawn mowers,formula one engines,fuel cells and one of the most successful line of motorcycles on the planet- I mean really what is Ford gonna show them -
and as far as honda engines being "nothing special" they currently produce the engine with the most specific power in a production car @ 123bhp per liter and their F1 motors put out about 300 bhp per liter- NATURALLY aspirated

[Ishmael]

I'll have to ask where they got that information from.

[Jim Nilsen]

Honda is the only independant auto company left that has no involvement with another auto maker.

Honda also bought the patent for running a car on hydrogen about 2 years ago from the guy who invented the cutting torch that runs on Brown's gas which is the same gas produced by all of the people doing the running on water tech.

Just do a search on Brown's gas cutting torches and you will be enlighted a bunch. I am not trying to start a big debate but it is a fact and Honda has the patent now and it will be interesting as to what they will do with it.

[Damn True]

Ford engineering for Honda- dont make me laugh- I love American cars and have an F150 but cmon Honda engines power the world- Ford builds cars and trucks- Honda makes cars,trucks,generators,lawn mowers,formula one engines,fuel cells and one of the most successful line of motorcycles on the planet- I mean really what is Ford gonna show them -
and as far as honda engines being "nothing special" they currently produce the engine with the most specific power in a production car @ 123bhp per liter and their F1 motors put out about 300 bhp per liter- NATURALLY aspirated

Which F1 engines?

They left F1 two years ago. Three wins total; 1965 (mexico), 1967 (Monza) and 2006 (Hungary). 4th in constructors in 1967 and 2006 (Jenson Button). Pretty much a failure otherwise.

[formula]

Which F1 engines?

They left F1 two years ago. Three wins total; 1965 (mexico), 1967 (Monza) and 2006 (Hungary). 4th in constructors in 1967 and 2006 (Jenson Button). Pretty much a failure otherwise.

damn, beat me to it. Bragging about honda's F1 cars is probably not the best way to show off how super-awesome they are.

also:

Highest specific engine output (power/unit displacement)


Highest specific engine output (power/unit displacement)

* Petrol/Gasoline (naturally-aspirated) piston engine - 106.2 kW (144.4 PS; 142.4 hp) per litre- 1994 JDM Suzuki Cultus Suzuka edition R13B 138 kW (188 PS; 185 hp) 1.3 L I4
* Petrol/Gasoline (forced-induction) piston engine - 151 kW (205 PS; 202 hp) per litre - 2009 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X FQ400 302 kW (411 PS; 405 hp) 2.0 L I4
* Diesel engine (naturally-aspirated) - 33.4 kW (45.4 PS; 44.8 hp) per litre - 1995 Mercedes E 300 D 100 kW (136 PS; 134 hp) DIN 3.0 L I6
* Diesel engine (forced-induction) - 75.2 kW (102.2 PS; 100.8 hp) per litre - 2007 BMW new 2.0 L I4 twin-turbo 150 kW (204 PS; 201 hp) DIN
* Naturally-aspirated pistonless rotary engine - 140.5 kW (191.0 PS; 188.4 hp) per litre - Mazda RX-8 Renesis 184 kW (250 PS; 247 hp) JIS 1.3 L

nope, no hondas there either. hrmmm.

[crustysack]

well my wikepidia page must be out of date
The F20C produces the highest specific power output for any naturally aspirated 2.0L piston engine in a car worth less than US$100,000, at 120 hp (89 kW) per liter, ahead of the 1.6 L (98 cu in) Honda B16B engine found in the 1996-2000 Honda Civic Type R producing 185 bhp (138 kW) for a specific power of 115.8 bhp (86.4 kW) per liter. In fact, the F20C held the record for producing the highest specific output for any production naturally aspirated engine until Ferrari released the 458 Italia in 2010. The Italia produces 127 HP/L, besting the F20C by 3.5 H
anyway not getting into a pissin match over apples vs oranges

[LSx_88_Ciera]

Highest specific engine output (power/unit displacement)

2006 Honda CR125R .125L 34.9HP (279.2HP/L)

Sorry couldn't resist.

[DaveD]

Which F1 engines?

They left F1 two years ago. Three wins total; 1965 (mexico), 1967 (Monza) and 2006 (Hungary). 4th in constructors in 1967 and 2006 (Jenson Button). Pretty much a failure otherwise.

Look at little further back, before they banned the turbo engines.
Honda dominated F1 for almost a decade..

Honda returned to Formula One in 1983 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Formula_One_season) as an engine supplier for Spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_%28racing_team%29) and stayed in the sport for a decade, at various times teaming with Lotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Lotus), McLaren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_McLaren), Tyrrell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing) and Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WilliamsF1). Honda engines were considered the ticket to Grand Prix glory due to their power, reliability, and winning track record. Honda supplied its engines to six constructor champions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_World_Constructors%27_Champion s), as well as five driver championships (3 by Senna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayrton_Senna), 1 by Piquet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Piquet), and another by Prost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Prost)), before dropping out of the sport again. Honda-powered cars had won 71 Grands Prix, by the end of the 1992 season.

[MonzaRacer]

Well Ford dominated Indy and other race circuits for many years, before everyone else wanted in.
As for Honda they are no better or worse than Ford or GM or what ever. as a technician who works on them I can tell you,,,they all break.
when working on small engines I saw just asmany Hondas down for the count,, oh and the replacements cost 3 times as much.
How do I know, 8hp Briggs for my rider with electric start, ready to install and hook up, $425, Techumseh $495, Kohler $590, Honda $949,, all 8hp and electric start with charging capabilities, all came with 1 yr free replacement, 3yrs yada yada, 5yrs yada yada.
HMMM, reground valve seats, had new bronze bushings installed in block ground valves and installed new rings and seals and gaskets and plugs,,,, guaranteed by ME, $101.83.
Still need new battery and some extra project metal to repair rust through on deck as its over 50 yrs old but an 11 dollar drive plate and it still mows grass!
Brother bought a used take off Honda engine off Ebay for log splitter and it cost him nearly $500 and still had to buy a different crank to hook up to pump he bought.
Just had 4 more Honda blocks dropped off for repair because they cant handle the abuse, all 4 have to have new cranks, gonna get billets as the other type aftermarket wont live for crap because of quality.
Brag about Honda all you want , they are no better than the rest. I know a fella with a CHEVETTE and it has all original driveline except for starter alternator ignition parts, timing belts/water pump and clutch and it has over one million miles on it with no over haul in site, still ets in the 30mpg range and hasnt got a spot of rust on it after living in Indiana for 32 yrs, just worked on a 5 yr old Honda Civic with 150k on it and that car looked worse than some 60 yr old cars I have seen.
Its all in how you treat them.
Toyota, Honda,Mazda, Subaru,Mitsubishi, Isuzu all got one thing a long time ago,,,they trained the owners that hey now you have a Japanese car and it requires proper maintenance every 30k,60k,90k,etc. and guess what, the owners had great luck and all issues got addressed as needed and the manufacturer got to see issues and get ahead of them.
Treat a 86 Honda like an 86 Camaro and see which breaks first and how much it costs to fix.
And as for F1 engines, heck if you throw several million dollars at a race design engine with race parts in it it will run great.
How much cash has Ford Dodge, GM and Toyota thrown at NASCAR NHRA ETC. and what do we have,,,, non production engines that make 800hp and if realized in regualr life spans would equal probably 200k miles. Heck they USED TO RUN NASCAR AND NHRA WITH PRODUCTION ENGINES, hmmmmmmm.
Get over it.
you will NEVER convince a productive mechanic that any one car/engine is better than another.
OH and think about it we have guys building V8 LSx engines with twin turbos, making well over 1000hp and tons of torque and STREET DRIVE THEM.
You will never do that reliably with a dinky little Honda or
Toyota.

[FatfreeGTO]

I have owned alot of Hondas including an S2000 which has the F20C talked about earlier as having the highest hp/l rating until this Ferrari. After doing a search for that Suzuki there is nothing online that I can find about it so that is a pretty special circumstance. Anyways the S2000 was probably the most fun car I have ever owned without having to be modified. If you ever get a chance to take one for a spin do it, they are alot of fun 6spd, 9k rpm redline (years 00-03), relatively light weight, all with the fun of being topless :). No its not super fast in a straight line but the weight balance of the car and the composure of the car in the turns is where it was at right out of the box.

As for the above post about treating your cars good and maintaining them is absolutely correct to getting them to last. That applies to probably every make out there. I think some exceptions to what you are saying come down to ease of service and the engineering that goes into them. This is where I personally feel that Honda excels and "the big 3" have missed the mark for a long time. You can pretty much take apart an entire Honda with only 3 sockets, 10mm and 12mm are everywhere. Another thing is they don't mess the car up with having different options for everything like I have seen on domestic products. For example when I went to do the brakes on my 03 silverado I had the VIN and all info about it at the parts store and the first set of rotors were wrong for the truck. Went back and I was told they have something like 5 or 6 different options for the rotors for this one model of truck so I told him to sell me every one he had so I wouldn't have to keep running back and forth to the parts store. I returned the wrong ones when I was done. IMO that is a bit much and just a waste of resources just for a simple set of brakes. I know that this can spill over to suspensions, engines etc. With most of the foreign cars you just don't run into that. Yes you are limited to being stuck with the 1 or 2 options that they have for that particular car in reference to drivetrain and suspension setups but the cost savings to the manufacturer and the serviceability of the cars by the techs really add up. In addition the cost savings that would be enjoyed by the aftermarket who have to manufacture and supply all of these various parts to the repair facility's.

Also as to ford dominating Indy if I remember correctly Ford had the engine contract with the CART series to help create a even field and when they merged with Indy a few years ago Ford was part of that deal. And the remark about making huge hp with a dinky honda or toyota you can just look to the 3l that is in the Twin Turbo supras which make easily over 1000hp and are extremely reliable. But that engine was designed to be a performance motor just like the LS engines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzMI4DoYl04 With proper engineering you can have the best of both worlds performance and reliability but that cuts into profits and in the business world profits drive everything.

This is all just my .02c

[Ishmael]

I was going to say I didn't see the thread going in this direction but I kinda did. Cool to watch though.

[Twentyover]

Well Ford dominated Indy and other race circuits for many years, before everyone else wanted in.
..............


Don't confuse Ford with Cosworth, who build engines and sell ad space on the cam covers. Is it that hard to dominate a series when no one else is interested?

Honda, on the other hand, owns the technology in their race engines. They don't rent space on cam covers, they build the engine under the cam covers.

Therein lies a fiundamental difference between the two companies- Honda is an engine manufacturer (actually, Honda started by manufacturing piston rings) that also assembles cars, while Ford is a car assembler that needs engines to power them. I don't see Ford taking the engine design risks that Honda would, and has.

What manufacturer but Honda would propose using a 8 valve oval piston twin connecting rod (per piston) 4 piston 4 stroke to race in a class owned by 2 strokes? Rules limited to 4 combustion chambers (I can't seriously refer to theses pistons riding in 'cylinders'), Honda did exactly that in Motorcycle F1 in 1978. While the NR500 was not the success Honda wanted, the technology did result in a 750cc endurance race bike that was sold to the public 15 years later.


This discussion has little to do with whether Ford or Honda engines are 'better'. It does, however, go tot he heart of the original poster's question

[elitecustombody]

Well Ford dominated Indy and other race circuits for many years, before everyone else wanted in.
As for Honda they are no better or worse than Ford or GM or what ever. as a technician who works on them I can tell you,,,they all break.
when working on small engines I saw just asmany Hondas down for the count,, oh and the replacements cost 3 times as much.
How do I know, 8hp Briggs for my rider with electric start, ready to install and hook up, $425, Techumseh $495, Kohler $590, Honda $949,, all 8hp and electric start with charging capabilities, all came with 1 yr free replacement, 3yrs yada yada, 5yrs yada yada.
HMMM, reground valve seats, had new bronze bushings installed in block ground valves and installed new rings and seals and gaskets and plugs,,,, guaranteed by ME, $101.83.
Still need new battery and some extra project metal to repair rust through on deck as its over 50 yrs old but an 11 dollar drive plate and it still mows grass!
Brother bought a used take off Honda engine off Ebay for log splitter and it cost him nearly $500 and still had to buy a different crank to hook up to pump he bought.
Just had 4 more Honda blocks dropped off for repair because they cant handle the abuse, all 4 have to have new cranks, gonna get billets as the other type aftermarket wont live for crap because of quality.
Brag about Honda all you want , they are no better than the rest. I know a fella with a CHEVETTE and it has all original driveline except for starter alternator ignition parts, timing belts/water pump and clutch and it has over one million miles on it with no over haul in site, still ets in the 30mpg range and hasnt got a spot of rust on it after living in Indiana for 32 yrs, just worked on a 5 yr old Honda Civic with 150k on it and that car looked worse than some 60 yr old cars I have seen.
Its all in how you treat them.
Toyota, Honda,Mazda, Subaru,Mitsubishi, Isuzu all got one thing a long time ago,,,they trained the owners that hey now you have a Japanese car and it requires proper maintenance every 30k,60k,90k,etc. and guess what, the owners had great luck and all issues got addressed as needed and the manufacturer got to see issues and get ahead of them.
Treat a 86 Honda like an 86 Camaro and see which breaks first and how much it costs to fix.
And as for F1 engines, heck if you throw several million dollars at a race design engine with race parts in it it will run great.
How much cash has Ford Dodge, GM and Toyota thrown at NASCAR NHRA ETC. and what do we have,,,, non production engines that make 800hp and if realized in regualr life spans would equal probably 200k miles. Heck they USED TO RUN NASCAR AND NHRA WITH PRODUCTION ENGINES, hmmmmmmm.
Get over it.
you will NEVER convince a productive mechanic that any one car/engine is better than another.
OH and think about it we have guys building V8 LSx engines with twin turbos, making well over 1000hp and tons of torque and STREET DRIVE THEM.
You will never do that reliably with a dinky little Honda or
Toyota.

maybe if you stop messing with lawnmovers and do some research,you wouldn't have narrow-minded opinions ,Honda and Toyota has owned just about every car maker for years. Take for instance a 95-99 Toyota Avalon ,early 80's-early 90's Toyota Cressida, 79-02 Toyota Supra,any of these cars can do 400k miles even if the oil is not changed every 3k miles,you can also add 91-95 Acura Legend,92-00 Honda Civic ,how about old-school rotary motors in little Toyotas ,Datsuns and Mazdas? Or mid 80's-on BMW 3-series,late 70's-up Mercedes to that list,(can't comment much on 00-up Benz) ,I'm sure I'm forgetting many other imports,but the ones I listed ,I had firsthand experience with

Search youtube for a video where kids are trying to kill Honda Civic or Mazda RX-7 at WOT with no oil,no coolant,try that with everyday domestic car and let me know how that works

Granted most car makers have drastically improved longetivity of motors in last decade,I have more respect for import engineering,because they were decades ahead,especially guys who developed 2JZ-GTE for 93-02 Toyota Supra ,car that was designed over 17 years ago is capable to put down 1000hp on bone stock internals with simple bolt-ons, don't want to come off as nut-swinger,but search SW's Supra. BTW,I own more than couple of Supra,one of them is fully built single turbo 600hp everyday beater,so the "dinky" remark is an insult.

I also agree with fatfreeGTO,S2000 are fun ,quick cars

[79-TA]

^ I'll keep that in mind the next time I see guys pulling parts off of imports at the local salvage yard or the next time I have to help one of my buddies with a broken down import. They're just cars.

Here's my summarized opinion: American cars got pretty terrible in the 70's while Japanese cars were smaller, simpler, and less terrible. Any car that is still around from the 80's is probably pretty reliable regardless of manufacturer. My fox body turned 200k last month. I have full service records on the car and I certainly haven't babied it.

If you want a domestic survival video, look up the 4.0 Cherokee that was hooned beyond belief before finally dying. Also impressive was a friend's Chevrolet Celebrity that he tried to turn in for a 1000 dollars as a part of one of California's smog programs . . . they couldn't make it fail smog and eventually just lied and said it had a check engine light.


I didn't see anything narrow-minded about Monza's comment. Cars are cars. Even if you do have 600 streetable hp in a Supra, that doesn't negate his point about what is possible with some turbo V8's (think Nelson Racing Engines)