Wilwood (or brake) experts please step in

[GRNOVA]

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59996

That is the link to the beginning of this.

Took the car out and really beat it up in the corners Ridetech suspension is working great!

My problem is my brakes just don't stop me quick at all! I still cannot lock them up to skid. I don't want to run right through the turn and off the road. Is there something I am missing?


I am running staggered 18's and 20's
and have 1000psi at the fronts and 900psi at the rear
Have a Wilwood M/C http://www.wilwood.com/pdf/ds487.pdf which I bench bled
Rears: http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKitsProdRear.aspx?itemno=140-2117-B
Fronts: http://www.wilwood.com/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-5648-P
prop valve: http://www.wilwood.com/pdf/ds488.pdf

[Rod]

[/URL]

I am running staggered 18's and 20's
and have 1000psi at the fronts and 1000psi at the rear
Have a Wilwood M/C http://www.wilwood.com/pdf/ds487.pdf (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59996) which I bench bled
Rears: [URL]http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKitsProdRear.aspx?itemno=140-2117-B
Fronts: http://www.heidts.com/11_4_piston_mustang_ii_brakes.html
prop valve: http://www.wilwood.com/pdf/ds488.pdf

I'm not a master brake guy but if you have a wilwood master, wilwood rear brakes, wilwood prop valve and the pressures are fine and the only thing not wilwood and that is the major brake force item is the heidts front calipers, I would suspect those :) ?

[GRNOVA]

I thought that too ...but a phone call to Heidts confirmed they use wilwood calipers.

But I appreciate the answer.

[Rod]

ummm? do they have 2 different size pistons available in that style caliper?, I know they recommend front calipers to have smaller pistons when you run 4 wheel disc kits, and disc/drum kits have larger front caliper pistons... or maybe the caliper is for a thicker rotor width and the pistons are at the end of there travel?

[GRNOVA]

http://www.wilwood.com/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-5648-P
These are the fronts

[JRouche]

Hey Tim... Ok ahhh. Well. The dynalite calipers are what is in the name. They are a light caliper and really not suited for some heavy street use. OK!!! Flame me up. But thats my opinion. They are the bottom of the line for wilwood and better suited for a show car or street rod that doesnt see much hard use.

They are gonna flex (spread).

I think you should be able to lock up the brakes on a car that you are pushing to the limits. When you get the feel for impending lock up you have a better braking system and its more controllable and predictable. I agree you should be able to lock the brakes up when you want to. Not that you will, but you should have the ability to take it all the way to impending lock.

I think your calipers are a lil on the small side for the car. JR

[LSx_88_Ciera]

You make no mention of what pads or rotors you are using.

If you got too much heat in the rotors on initial break in you may have glazed them.
Contaminated pads?
I would try surfacing the pads by placing a piece of 80grit on a flat surface.
Take your rotors in and have a couple thousandths taken off them.

[a67]

http://www.wilwood.com/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-5648-P
These are the fronts

Those calipers don't have much piston area. Will need a lot of line pressure to get good braking from them.

As a reference the GM D52 caliper has over twice the piston area. Which for the same braking force requires less then half the line pressure.

The other thing is the pad compound and bedding. It can take a while for the pads to bed in and provide good braking capacity.

Bob.

[HRBS]

You never listed the Master Cylinder bore size. Do you have a firm pedal but no stopping power ? If so, it sounds like the MC bore size is too large. When running 4 wheel manual discs you generally want a bore size of 7/8" to 1" MAX.
Hope this helps.

EDIT.... I just read the thread in the link (I see you have the 7/8" bore). Can you explain a little more of your situation. When you press the pedal is it super firm and hard but no matter how hard you push the car doesnt skid. Or does the pedal go to the floor easily and the car doesnt skid ? The more info given of the situation may help.

[a67]

With only 3 sq-inches of piston area the M/C bore should be about 5/8" diameter. Best bet is to replace the front calipers with ones that have more piston area.

Bob.

[GRNOVA]

When you press the pedal is it super firm and hard but no matter how hard you push the car doesnt skid.

I stand on the pedal and the car just comes to a stop slowly. Like when you are trying to stop with a a drink in your hand. Very easy.


LSx_88_Ciera- You make no mention of what pads or rotors you are using.


I am using the wilwwod pad bp 7112

[GRNOVA]

Ok, what rotor and caliper should I get for the front? With the M/C I have?
I do realize that the front discs were bought almost 10 years ago, so I think they are ready for an upgrade. Recommendations?

[GRNOVA]

JRouche Hey Tim... Ok ahhh. Well. The dynalite calipers are what is in the name. They are a light caliper and really not suited for some heavy street use. OK!!! Flame me up. But thats my opinion. They are the bottom of the line for wilwood and better suited for a show car or street rod that doesnt see much hard use.

JR, you know I would never flame you! We are on the same team.

[HRBS]

I stand on the pedal and the car just comes to a stop slowly.

Thats usually a sign that the MC bore is too large.
I would have to agree with a67 and suggest a 5/8" bore since a) the brake pad area is so small and b) your firm pedal / slow stopping issue. It'll be cheaper to change out the MC than the front brake system. Also, you can always sell the 7/8" MC.

[JRouche]

JR, you know I would never flame you! We are on the same team.

Hahaha. Yes sir we are. Ok, on that note. Upgrades??? We have very similar cars. Very similar, well suspension anyway. Your engine kicks me to the curb..

K... What I ended up using was a 13" (12.9 actually) wilwood setup from Hotrods USA. I went with him because he was able to offer a zero offset which I needed. But now that I have the numbers I could build one up for myself. Be I wouldnt save any cash. Package deals always save money. And any of the wilwood dealers can make up the same package.

So what I have is a MII type suspension with modified TCI lower arms and SPC upper arms. After market forged spindles, still MII geometry.

I needed a zero offset cause the tires (235/45/17 on 8" wheels) were already tight to the fenders.

Now with the MII type aftermarket suspension some of them had a 5/8" increase in track width each side over stock, like mine. You should be aware of that before shopping for hubs and hats.

So I ditched the 11" granada hub/rotor for a wilwood 13" disc and aluminum hub. Do you still have the 11" rotor/hat combo?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/rotor-1.jpg

If so then an upgrade to the larger rotor and bigger calipers might make a difference that you like.

One thing Ill add though is I have a boosted MC. I had great braking with the 11" rotors before. But you dont have the boost. And to be honest, I havent driven the car with the new brakes yet. So I may be over boosted at this point. I dont even mind yanking the MC for a wilwood MC though if it comes to that.

Oh, and my calipers are a lil less expensive than some of the 6 pot units. But lemme say, they are a solid looking caliper. I have the forged superlite calipers. And I just put in the pads today. Had the brakes for a year now and Im just now putting the pads in and gonna bleed tomorrow. Shows you my speed. Ummm, ever change pads in under a minute before?? Neither have I. But wow!! Remove one bolt. Slip the pads in, replace the bolt and its DONE! What a chore LOL. And with the correct spacers for the caliper the pads slipped in and the rotor spun freely with room for a blond hair in between the pads and rotor before I bled the system. Prolly gonna have the regular drag once the system is bled. Perfectly centered. One of the ONLY things that has worked so smoothly during my revamp of the suspension.

Oh, and I had to assemble the hubs to hat. Some safety wiring. But I didnt mind, kinda fun, once I got it down. And install the bearings in the hubs. I used my 50 ton press because I dont have a small arbor press. But any small press will work.

And.... LOL Yup, always another and with my stuff, nuthing ever works like it should. There was a major mix-up with the spacers that HRs USA sent and how they had the caliper brackets configured. It was NOT a bolt up "kit". They sent the wrong brackets. I had to mock it all up and show them with pics. I was pissed. I do blame them but give them credit for working with me. They had not used the "kit" before from what I could tell. They had the spacers for the bracket wrong. Luckily I was able to mock up the brackets the correct way and had them shoot me out the correct spacers, brackets and captured nuts. But in the end the rotor was flying true to the caliper and in the center and it was a zero offset for the wheels and tires.

Ok, one last thing. I said the calipers you have are small and not suited for the car. My bad. I dont think its the calipers. I do think they are smallish for your car. But I had no idea it was braking like you last posted. Thats way too weak. And if it was just the fronts that were too weak the rears would pick up some braking. The way it sounds is not even the rears are getting and braking power.

That points to a large MC. Too large of a bore. How far down does the brake pedal move? You should be getting some decent travel on the pedal for a small bore MC. For an unboosted MC Im thinking after all the play is taken up, if there is any, the pedal should move three inches with a moderate amount of foot pressure. Three inches sounds like alot. But with a small bore you will have more travel, which is good!! More control. You can modulate the brakes better with a longer pedal than you can with a boosted MC and short throw. And three inches is just a number I have in my head. 2.5"s might be more realistic. But at the end of the three inches of pedal the brakes should be locking up. If not then I think the MC bore is a lil too large. JR

[Rick Dorion]

1000 psi is too low from my experience. Given the area of your front pistons, 5/8" bore MC seems appropriate. Who makes one, though? I played alot with my C4 setup and have acceptable performance using a 13/16" bore MC. There was a noticeable difference going from 7/8".

[GRNOVA]

1000 psi is too low from my experience. Given the area of your front pistons, 5/8" bore MC seems appropriate. Who makes one, though? I played alot with my C4 setup and have acceptable performance using a 13/16" bore MC. There was a noticeable difference going from 7/8".


Rick will this work it is a 5/8" bore http://www.wilwood.com/Images/MasterCylinders/Master%20Cylinder%20Photos-Large/260-10371-lg.jpg

[a67]

Rick will this work it is a 5/8" bore http://www.wilwood.com/Images/MasterCylinders/Master%20Cylinder%20Photos-Large/260-10371-lg.jpg

That master is a single outlet style. Will need to use two tied together with a balance bar. One for the rears and the other for the fronts.

There is a tandem 5/8" bore master (260-10234), but is a side mount with metric outlet fittings.

The slim selection of 5/8" M/C's along with issues of running the higher line pressure are some of the reasons I suggested a caliper with more piston area.

Bob.

[GRNOVA]

So a bigger caliper and rotor may fix this?

[a67]

So a bigger caliper and rotor may fix this?

Not necessarily a bigger caliper, but one with more piston area. For a 7/8" master with manual brakes something in the 4.8 sq-in to 5.5 sq-in range will work. The larger the piston area in the caliper the lower the line pressure needs to be.

The trade off is that it requires more fluid from the M/C. But I do not see that as an issue with the Wilwood tandem M/C you are currently using.

As for larger rotors, an increase in diameter will increase the braking capacity. This occurs because the lever arm between the caliper and the center of the spindle is longer.

Bob.

[wicked68]

I stand on the pedal and the car just comes to a stop slowly. Like when you are trying to stop with a a drink in your hand. Very easy.



I am using the wilwwod pad bp 7112

what pad compound are you using?

I just had this same problem and fixed it by going to a different pad compound. It was a cheap fix and it had been driving me crazy. I have the exact same setup you do but my rotors are slotted and drilled.

Its amazing the difference the compound will make. 7112 is the pad but does not spec the compound

here is what I went to: jegs part number 950-150-9863K

you likely have bp10 compound which is just not going to do it.

I went to the bp30 and its great.

yes these calipers are on the lower end of what you can use but they will work.

before you change anything else try the bp30.

btw - dont change from the 7/8 cylinder - its fine. make sure you have enough leverage with your pedal ratio - you can move the rod up the pedal if you need more - but if it has good feel and you think its properly placed then try pads.

oh yeah - one more thing - try different pads ;)

[GRNOVA]

Checked the psi again was only 900 not 1000 like I first posted

[GRNOVA]

Ok, just got off the phone with Wilwood tech. First they told me to check the lines going to the M/C to see if they were hooked up right.
On a Wilwood M/C the reservoir in the front is the primary (usually front) and the one closest to the firewall is the secondary(rear). I was praying that I had them hooked up wrong but I must have read the instructions when installing it because they were right.
So still stumped I was told to remove the pads and sand them and the rotors with 80 grit sandpaper to rebed the pads. Then to go out and drive 50 mph slam on the brakes and do this 5 or 6 times. Then hit 50 Mph again and slow down to 20mph and repeat this 4 or 5 times.
After all this I can say that my brakes are a little better... but not how I think they should be.
Now the pedal has about 1" of travel till the brakes hit then 2" more till the end of the throw.
I think the next step will be to order the pads that Wicked68 was referrring to.

[JRouche]

Hey Tim.. I like all the advice about pads. And the seating process wilwood had you check. New pads should be seated or broke in.

But I gotta say. You are reaching to fix a problem with the brakes. Unless you have some contaminated pads from wilwood then the other pads wont give the braking you are looking for. You can get some soft, abrasive pads to help out a poorly functioning brake system. But all you will get is a fast wearing pad and a scored rotor.

A correct caliper and MC for the car will not need a special pad. Look at production cars. They are thinking the user will buy whatever pad that is available when its time to change pads.. They would like them to buy factory pads but they know better. So the over build the braking system so when the user puts on some lifetime warranty pads (super hard) the car will still stop. And they do, even with crappy pads. You can still lock up those hard pads on a factory car (sans antilock device).

I wouldnt chase the problem looking for the best pads. Save your money and get those pads when you have some larger calipers.

The 7/8" bore MC is as small as you want to use for the street IMO. Unless you want to dive in deep with the brake pedal. There is a reason you dont see many 5/8" bore MCs. Alot of pedal travel to take up the volume of most wheel cylinders, even the small ones. .

Your car should be locking up with the wilwood pads. If not then its not the pads. Its the combination of components.

But I do like the idea that the pads are not gripping like they should. Mainly because its not that small of a caliper (they are good calipers), and the MC is just about as small as you want to go. So the slipping and not gripping of the pads is a sound road to travel.

But... New calipers are not cheap, and you gotta try everything you can..

One thing I dont get is you have had them on for some time now right? Were they working to your satisfaction before. Or has it just got to the point now that you want to fix this part of the car.

Ummm. 1200 bucks :) New rotors and calipers, and new braking.... JR

[LSx_88_Ciera]

An interesting read on brake bedding.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedintheory.shtml

[GRNOVA]

JR, Before I was not really pushing the car and with the old setup (power brakes) the vacuum just wasn't there... 12psi. And after finally getting everything tuned up and running correctly everything feels really alive except the brakes. I know $1200 for brakes Im just trying to see if I can find out a problem first and check that I am doing things correct and proper. I am still learning new things about this car every time I drive it!

Lsx 88 I will check that link out ...Thanks.

[Rick Dorion]

My last car I had a manual 13" C4 setup. Going from Performance Friction to Hawk HP+ pads was night/day. On my current 68, I have 12" C4 (small pistons too). The pedal pressure with a 7/8" MC was higher than I wanted. Going to a 13/16" was the solution for me. When I went for a drive, I wasn't thinking (anymore) about how hard I Had to step on the brakes. Travel wasn't excessive. It's tough to get acceptable performance with small piston calipers in manual mode! You're 900-1000 psi is in line with a 7/8" bore MC with about a 100 pound leg pressure on the pedal. A 13/16" will provide approx 1100 or so with a moderate push on the pedal.

[wicked68]

You are reaching to fix a problem with the brakes. Unless you have some contaminated pads from wilwood then the other pads wont give the braking you are looking for.


I beg to differ. I just had this exact same problem last month.

I swapped pads- thats all and then it would lock up like a mofo.

pads really do make that big of a difference and the bp10s are really soft lightweight pads with a low friction coefficient.

btw - the plumbing of the lines to the mc doesnt matter for performance - all it is there for is to allow for more fluid for the front breaks to wear and the cylinders to move since they are used more and wear faster than the back - its a convenience to not have to add fluid as often - but its not for performance in breaking.

the 2 things you can adjust are your pad type and the positioning of your rod mounting on the pedal for more leverage if you are not getting enough.

try the pads first - those bp10 pads stink.

and btw - the bp30 pads are non bedded pads - so when you put them on simply sand the rotors in a non directional method - and then drive for a few minutes and gradual slow down for 3 or 4 times . then hit them a few times pretty good. then you are good to go.

then you will need to have somone spot for you to adjust your proportioning valve -until the fronts lock up just before the rear do.

[GRNOVA]

Ok Talked to another rep today from Wilwood and he said that they stopped using the pads I have for some reason. So I went out and picked up a set of BP20 and :jump::hammer::bananna2::woot::headbang::headbang: :yeah:

And what a difference I even had to dial my rear brakes down.

I want to thank everyone for all there help:worship: I could not have gotten through this if it was not for you guys!

I still cannot believe it!!!!!

[a67]

I still cannot believe it!!!!!

I'm not sure why not. But it isn't over yet. You need to let us know how those pads work when it is cold out and the brakes are cold. There is a reason that Wilwood states that these are race ONLY pads (their emphasis).

Along with how long the pads & rotors last.

But, then again, if you only drive on nice hot days and put a thousand miles a year on the car. It may not matter...

Please keep us up to date as the year(s) go(es) by.

Do you sense a hint of sarcasm, yep, I am sure you do.

Note that I did mention about pads and bedding. But did not suggest race ONLY pads.

Bob.

[GRNOVA]

I ended up buying the bp 20 not the 30. According to Wilwood these are a colder pad and would be good for the street and great on the track with a non slotted or non drilled rotor. Mine are smooth Iron rotors. He said I will tear up the rotors and pads in no time if I went with the 30's on my rotors.

I will keep everyone posted on the wear of the pads and the rotors.

Thanks again.

[JRouche]

Sweet!!! Im glad you got the braking you were looking for. And without having to spend some serious bucks. Thats a great feeling huh. That first step on the pedal and you are just hoping it grabs, because the alternative :( And it did, brakes are back!!!

I like a good ending. Now your car is pretty darn done, ready for some cruising. ERRRRR!!!! Im jealous :))) Good for you Tim!! JR





Ok Talked to another rep today from Wilwood and he said that they stopped using the pads I have for some reason. So I went out and picked up a set of BP20 and :jump::hammer::bananna2::woot::headbang::headbang: :yeah:

And what a difference I even had to dial my rear brakes down.

I want to thank everyone for all there help:worship: I could not have gotten through this if it was not for you guys!

I still cannot believe it!!!!!

[wicked68]

I ended up buying the bp 20 not the 30. According to Wilwood these are a colder pad and would be good for the street and great on the track with a non slotted or non drilled rotor. Mine are smooth Iron rotors. He said I will tear up the rotors and pads in no time if I went with the 30's on my rotors.

I will keep everyone posted on the wear of the pads and the rotors.

Thanks again.


told you so ;)

amazing the difference a set of pads can make