Buying a Pro-Touring Suspension Package, Edelbrock Vs. Hotchkis

[online170]

So i own a 71 Buick skylark, and its getting a supesnion upgrade.

Im trying to get the "best bang for the buck" type deal. The car is 95% street duty, and i like to have my fun on back road twisties, so nothing too severe.

Ive narrowed my choices down to the Hotchkis TVS (8008) system, and the Edelbrock Pro-touring kit (52066 i think).

My buddy owns a 69 cutlass with the hotckis kits (he has the 1 5/16 rear swaybar instead of the 1" like in the 8008 thought). In any case, i really like the spring rate in the car, and the suspension over all is really well made.

However, for $60 more the Edelbrock offers 4 IAS shock absorbers with their kit. However, it comes with a smaller front sway bar, and i cant for the life of me find the spring rate of their Eibach Springs. From what i can gather, other than the spring rates and the sway bar thickness, both kits offer the same amount of goodies.

Hotckis has sway bars 1.38 front and 1in rear (i might go for the 1-5/16 kit). Spring rate is 500 front and 135 rear lbs/in. Comes with frame stiffeners, tie rod adjusters.

Edelbrock kit has 1.25 front and 1in rear sway bars. Spring rate...??? Comes with frame stiffeners, tie rod adjuster, and 4 IAS shocks.

Both kits include bushings except for the front control arms.


I dont want the edelbrock springs to be softer than the hotckis. If i went with hotchkis, id get the KYB GR2 shocks. Are the IAS shocks any good? Which product handles better?
IF YOU OWN AN A-BODY and one of these kits, PLEASE CHIME IN!

[Lowend]

I think Hotchkis makes a lot of the Edelbrock stuff...

I'd be looking more at SC&C anyways
http://www.scandc.com/index.htm

[ProdigyCustoms]

I would not put KYBs on a dump truck! HATE the ride of KYBs

I have never been impressed with Edelbrock shocks.

I have always been impressed with Hotchkis A body stuff and REALLY like the Hotchkis / Bilstein shocks. The srprings are always consistant, handling is predictable.

For only $180 more then the Edelbrock kit we can supply the Hotchkis kit, WITH Hotchkis Bilstein shocks for $1724.

If you decide on the Edlebrock kit, we can supply that too.

[monza]

Wow I learned that Edlebrock makes shocks and suspension parts?
I see your a long distance from Frank in the post above but give him a call he'll steer you the right way. He likes us Canadians. (some times)

[online170]

I think Hotchkis makes a lot of the Edelbrock stuff...

I'd be looking more at SC&C anyways
http://www.scandc.com/index.htm

Good products, but they dont seem to have a complete package like im looking for. Their springs are comparable to the hotchkis, and those shocks are over-kill for what i need.

Same goes for tubular a-arms.

[online170]

I would not put KYBs on a dump truck! HATE the ride of KYBs

I have never been impressed with Edelbrock shocks.

I have always been impressed with Hotchkis A body stuff and REALLY like the Hotchkis / Bilstein shocks. The srprings are always consistant, handling is predictable.

For only $180 more then the Edelbrock kit we can supply the Hotchkis kit, WITH Hotchkis Bilstein shocks for $1724.

If you decide on the Edlebrock kit, we can supply that too.

Thats sort of the direction im leaning after posting this thread as well.

Talked to a freind about them, and it seems edelbrock has just put together a kit made of parts from other manufacturers, where as hotckis designed the kit from top to bottom.

He said, leave the flow stuff to edelbrock, and the suspension stuff to hotchkis :).

Im Familiar with the Bilstein shocks, but ill be buying the kit locally from a speed shop. I dont have to deal with customs or brokerage that way, and they give discounted prices. Could you suggest whered id source the Bilsteins or what the part numbers are? Probably NAPA carries them.

[online170]

Do these seem familiar?

There for a 1970 Chevelle.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSN-F4B460929H0/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSN-F4BE3D150H0/

[ProdigyCustoms]

If you do the package you will be happy.

Hotchkis has Bilstein make the shocks for them with slightly different valving for their springs. If you not all out with this thing you wcould use the Bilsteins. The Hotchkis / Bilstein shock numbers are:

70010012
71010009

Good Luck with it

[John Wright]

My buddy owns a 69 cutlass with the hotckis kits (he has the 1 5/16 rear swaybar instead of the 1" like in the 8008 thought).
I'm thinking that 1.3125"(1 5/16") rear bar is a typo....maybe it's .9375"(15/16")?


A matched (pre-engineered) kit would be a great way to go, less guessing and swapping parts around to get something that handles nice.

[TitoJones]

Just realize that both kits you are looking at do nothing at all to improve your geometry and essentially are 'new' stock type items. If you are looking to handle, call Marcus at SC&C or Blake at Speedtech and get a suspension that will actually make your handle better.

Tyler

[online170]

No thats not a typo.

Its 2 different kits.

Im considering the 80008 which has 1-3/8 Front and 1" rear Sway bar.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-80008/

My buddy has the 89008 which is $300 more, with a 1-5/16" REAR sway bar.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-89008/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-2282/

[online170]

If you do the package you will be happy.

Hotchkis has Bilstein make the shocks for them with slightly different valving for their springs. If you not all out with this thing you wcould use the Bilsteins. The Hotchkis / Bilstein shock numbers are:

70010012
71010009

Good Luck with it

Thanks for the numbers. If i cant source these locally, ill be in touch :).

[online170]

Just realize that both kits you are looking at do nothing at all to improve your geometry and essentially are 'new' stock type items. If you are looking to handle, call Marcus at SC&C or Blake at Speedtech and get a suspension that will actually make your handle better.

Tyler


Youre right, that would require tubular A-arms. Thats overkill for me. The items im considering managed to throw my freind 69 cutlass in full street trim into 0.86 lateral G in a corner before the tires let go. Im happy with that.

Maybe down the road if i get into autocrossing with the car. Right now im just looking to make the car feel a bit more responsive, instead the floaty boat couch feel.

[Bryce]

please go back and read what Tyler wrote.

[TitoJones]

Youre right, that would require tubular A-arms. Thats overkill for me. The items im considering managed to throw my freind 69 cutlass in full street trim into 0.86 lateral G in a corner before the tires let go. Im happy with that.

Maybe down the road if i get into autocrossing with the car. Right now im just looking to make the car feel a bit more responsive, instead the floaty boat couch feel.

Yeah. Not even remotely accurate.

Tubular upper control arms do nothing at all to improve any geometry. I get tired of typing this all out when it comes to Hotchkis and the fact that is does not improve anything at all so I'll quote myself. I realize I'm talking about a 1st gen Camaro, but the same principals apply to an A body too.

From this thread:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46999


Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positive caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effectiveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a steering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experience it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly acquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency maneuvers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without doing your due diligence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler


Hope that helps educate you.

Tyler

[John Wright]

No thats not a typo.


That is a huge rear bar.....seriously. I used a 1" rear bar and ended up removing it...the 1" bar on my 2nd gen Camaro had me tip toeing in and out of the corners for fear of turning the car completely around. Loose didn't begin to describe what I felt.

[online170]

I appreciate you taking the time to share the info, but ive done my homework. The choice i make in the end is mine.

Im not putting these items on a $40 000 car, and so price is a big driving factor. Maybe the hotckis system uses old technology, and is ultimately driven by price, but the performance doesnt lie.

Im happy with 0.8G from a 40 year old car, and cant justify an additional $1500 to $2000 to go that tiny bit higher in the performance curve. :hand: If you can show me the benefits (outcomes of the Hotchkis system) in the price range of the hotchkis system with SC&C im all ears.

Is it the best? No. Am i aware of that? Yes.

Im happy being on the left 1/3 of the X-axis, and 2/3 up on the Y-axis.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n149/online170/Firebird%204%20Sale/?action=view&current=untitled.jpg)

Thr tubular's i was referring to are from GlobalWest. Im pretty sure they address most of the issues you listed.
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72_Chevelle,GTO,A-body_Negative_Roll_standard_spring.htm (http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72_Chevelle,GTO,A-body_Negative_Roll_standard_spring.htm)

In addition, the car will have big sticky tires, a quick ratio steering box, and an alignment thats virtually eliminated bump steer on my buddie's car.

Im not just surfing summit's website and clicking the products that seem to have the best adverts, ive tried the system, and i like what it has to offer.

[TitoJones]

I appreciate you taking the time to share the info, but ive done my homework. The choice i make in the end is mine.

Im not putting these items on a $40 000 car, and so price is a big driving factor. Maybe the hotckis system uses old technology, and is ultimately driven by price, but the performance doesnt lie.

Im happy with 0.8G from a 40 year old car, and cant justify an additional $1500 to $2000 to go that tiny bit higher in the performance curve. :hand: If you can show me the benefits (outcomes of the Hotchkis system) in the price range of the hotchkis system with SC&C im all ears.

Is it the best? No. Am i aware of that? Yes.

Im happy being on the left 1/3 of the X-axis, and 2/3 up on the Y-axis.



Thr tubular's i was referring to are from GlobalWest. Im pretty sure they address most of the issues you listed.
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72_Chevelle,GTO,A-body_Negative_Roll_standard_spring.htm (http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72_Chevelle,GTO,A-body_Negative_Roll_standard_spring.htm)

In addition, the car will have big sticky tires, a quick ratio steering box, and an alignment thats virtually eliminated bump steer on my buddie's car.

Im not just surfing summit's website and clicking the products that seem to have the best adverts, ive tried the system, and i like what it has to offer.

You might want to keep on doing your homework because your conclusions are ultimately flawed. The arms you reference from Global West are based around the infamous 'B' body style spindle; an old technology that increases the amount of negative camber gain, but also doubles the bumpsteer curve, and screws with the track width. Just adding a set of tubular control arms to a factory A body spindle does nothing but allow you to setup your alignment to have more positive caster with less shims. It changes nothing in terms of geometry and ultimately is money wasted if that was the only upgrade.

I'd love to hear how your buddy eliminated bumpsteer by doing an alignment; something thousands of members on this board are not able to accomplish.

Where did you get this magical .8 G figure from? You realize that a road racing slick on a dead bone stock car can produce well over that figure too yes? Doesn't mean the tire is doing a good job of staying in contact with the road though.
My recommendation is to take 30 minutes of your time, call Marcus at SC&C and just listen to what he has to say; if after speaking with him you decide to stick with Hotchkis, more power to you. I'm only trying to help educate you as to why to road you are taking will ultimately become more costly in the long run. Thousands of members here have suffered from the Parson's disease; that's where you have to re-do things multiple times to get the results you are after.

Tyler

[Bryce]

I think you could achieve .8G or what your friend "seat of the pants" feels with stiff springs and stock control arms just put in new bushings. Save even more money.

Correcting the geometry is the best way. Mark will explain mutliple ways to achieve this. Some options may prove to be more cost affective than your current ideas.

We are just trying to help.

[online170]

Yea i know youre trying to help, and i appreciate that.

But god bless us, were all stubborn. Ill fold though, because i dont have "owner of ATS" after my name...

OK Tyler, ill bite, ill give Marcus a call and see what he has to say.

I dont plan to own this car forever, just trying to get it a little more crisp in the handling area. Also, you havent once addressed the cost issue, im guessing what youre recommending is a $5000 suspension.

In any case, before i give him a call, what are you recommending i install from SC&C?

[GenPac]

See for yourself:
http://www.scandc.com/suspensions.htm
http://www.scandc.com/products.htm

[online170]

i had a look there already, i asked the question because there isnt a "kit" per se listed on the site.

Just curous what Tito had in mind.

[TitoJones]

I was thinking a stage 2 kit would fit the bill, but Marcus will custom tailor you a package that will fit your needs, budget and goals. I promise you that.

I no longer own ATS; I sold it to Blake at Speedtech. I do know my suspensions thoug and Hotchkis isn't in my top 5 choices.

Tyler

[jknight16]

A perfect example of what can be accomplished using the SC&C parts with an A body would be what my dad did with his 69 GTO. He wanted superior handling and a bolt on package that didn't break the budget. Like you, he isn't going to road race the car, but he wanted it to handle like a more modern car than it is.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45441&highlight=judge

The tall ball joints correct much of the geometry problems, the adjustable uppers facilitate the ball joints and provide superior adjustability for alignments. Add in Springs and shocks and you're probably just a bit over $1k, not the $5k you may have thought.

As for the results, mission accomplished. However it did highlight how worn the steering box was, which was sent of to Lee for a rebuild, and so on and so on. The PT snowball misses no man!

[68Formula]

The Street Comp 2 Plus would be a nice budget package that would still improve your geometry.

Yes you would have to add:

New del-a-lum lower control arm bushings
Front sway bar from a stock 2nd Gen firebird (you can get those cheap from a junkyard)
Polyurethane front/rear sway bar bushings
Bilstein or QA1 shocks
Rear control arms


I'd save the money on a new rear bar because you'll probably find the car well balanced without it.

With the above system, you're still within your budget, but handle much better, and have a better ride as well.

At least talk to Marcus before you make a decision because he's more than willing to share his advice/experience even if you decide to go in a different direction.

[Lowend]

It took me a long time to accept this:
If the suspension is setup right, you don't need excessively high spring rates or massive swaybars to handle well.

Without a doubt, the SC&C setup with the spindles, a-arms and ball joints is the best out there for the front suspension.

Out back (and pretty much everywhere else) I'm a big fan of Global West's stuff with either Del-A-Lum bushings, or spherical bearings

[Hotchkis]

Wow, lots of information in this thread. Most of it is dis-information though. First and foremost, we do not manufacture the Edelbrock kit, and they are very different systems.

Unlike some of the other suspension guys on this thread and this board, we won't slam our competition. We feel our products speak for themselves. In the Super Chevy Suspension Shootout a few months ago, our customer's '65 Chevelle WAGON with a stock steering box outperformed all the other Chevelles in the test through the slalom - and they were all company-owned coupe project vehicles. All the top brands were there.

Frank nailed it: when choosing a suspension setup for your car, consider A) what you're doing with it and B) where your parts come from. Our systems (from the TVS to the complete package with arms) are designed, engineered, manufactured and tested in house at our facility. No overseas parts, no cobbled together kits using parts from other manufacturers.

Our TVS system WORKS. It certainly isn't the fanciest system on the market, nor it is the cheapest or the most expensive. But with over 2,000 A-Body kits sold, they bolt on easily with hand tools, and you get an incredible difference in the way the car handles. Lately some people have been posting long-winded essays about suspension design - some info is solid, some is total fantasy. Either way, you can't argue with results - we not only had the fastest Chevelle in the SC challenge, a TVS equipped Chevelle was also the fastest a-body at the Super Chevy Show in Vegas - with stock A-Arms. However, it sounds like you are building a fun weekend cruiser and don't want to break the bank or re-invent the wheel.

As for shocks, we usually stay away from KYB and other chain store brands. You'll find that by going through one of our dealers you can get a screamin' deal on the HPS1000 Hotchkis/Bilstein that is valved to our spec for the A-Body, offers a really comfortable ride and incredible handling.


This video shows a customer's '71 that was all stock. He installed a TVS, and was so happy he started autocrossing the car at GoodGuys events. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJM57HTenAo)

[online170]

Our TVS system WORKS. ..........

...... Either way, you can't argue with results - we not only had the fastest Chevelle in the SC challenge, a TVS equipped Chevelle was also the fastest a-body at the Super Chevy Show in Vegas - with stock A-Arms. .....

Does it ever, thats why this has become a bit of a discussion....

Thanks for chiming in, i love that video.

[Lowend]

...don't get me wrong, the Hotchkis stuff ain't bad. I used a lot of their stuff on a lot of cars, for a lot of years.

[TitoJones]

Wow, lots of information in this thread. Most of it is dis-information though. First and foremost, we do not manufacture the Edelbrock kit, and they are very different systems.

Unlike some of the other suspension guys on this thread and this board, we won't slam our competition. We feel our products speak for themselves.

I'll bite. I've kind of been waiting for a rep to come into an actual tech discussion for quite some time.

What about your TVS kit improves the poor geometry of the A body cars? What does a TVS kit do that factory replacement parts with higher spring rates and off the shelf Bilstiens can't do?

All I see are swaybars, springs and rear control arms. Please enlighten us all on how this is an improvement for the geometry on an A body car. What are your recommended front alignment specs? What kind of negative camber gain can we expect to see with your recommended alignment settings? What is the bumpsteer curve at said settings? How much positive caster can I get after installing the TVS system?

Regarding the SC issue, what other cars were invited, and what were they running? Were any of them running anything from SC&C? (I'm going to guess 'No' due to the fact that you advertise and he doesn't.)

I'll await your response, but answer me one last question- Where did I say anything about your suspension products that was NOT accurate?

Tyler

[Tom Welch]

Smack! i'd also like to hear this one.

[online170]

The arms you reference from Global West are based around the infamous 'B' body style spindle; an old technology that increases the amount of negative camber gain, but also doubles the bumpsteer curve, and screws with the track width.
I'd love to hear how your buddy eliminated bumpsteer by doing an alignment; something thousands of members on this board are not able to accomplish.


Ok since were "going there", i have a few questions as well. Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the bumpsteer is doubled?

Im working on getting you those aligment specs. It was something posted by a reader in HotRod or maybe CarCraft involving shimming the a-arm some more, and dialing in X amount of toe, caster and camber that greatly reduced the bumpsteer. The car we did this on is street driven, and traps at 107 on a very bumpy 1/4 mile track. It bumpsteered like crazy before, and now its virtually gone. I dont know why, it just worked. Maybe its too slow or smooth for the bumpsteer to show up.



What are your recommended front alignment specs? What kind of negative camber gain can we expect to see with your recommended alignment settings? What is the bumpsteer curve at said settings? How much positive caster can I get after installing the TVS system?

Can we get said specs for SC&C as well?


I'll await your response, but answer me one last question- Where did I say anything about your suspension products that was NOT accurate?

Tyler

I dont recall him saying you specifically. Might have been anyone that posted in here.

[TitoJones]

Ok since were "going there", i have a few questions as well. Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the bumpsteer is doubled?

Im working on getting you those aligment specs. It was something posted by a reader in HotRod or maybe CarCraft involving shimming the a-arm some more, and dialing in X amount of toe, caster and camber that greatly reduced the bumpsteer. The car we did this on is street driven, and traps at 107 on a very bumpy 1/4 mile track. It bumpsteered like crazy before, and now its virtually gone. I dont know why, it just worked. Maybe its too slow or smooth for the bumpsteer to show up.



Can we get said specs for SC&C as well?



I dont recall him saying you specifically. Might have been anyone that posted in here.

I sure can. I love tech discussions.

The B body spindle which both Hotchkis and Global West has made a conversion upper control arm to adapt to the A body chassis has a much longer, lower steering arm than a factory A body. Not only does this slow the steering but by lowering the steering arm on a front steer car like and a body the bumpsteer only gets worse. (even Baer brakes is guilty of this crime on an A body; they sell bumpsteer correction tie rods for an A body that move the curve in the wrong direction, making them do more harm than good.)

If you really want to read some good A body suspension discussions, pull up a chair and use the search engine. I'll link you to a few gems, but I'm not about to rehash out every spec I've ever posted about in my 9 years here.

Here is my fav:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115654&highlight=Teetoe_Jones

Here is a bunch more from Chevelles.com:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5671445
And even more from here:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1590199

I'm sure Marcus will pop in eventually with his specs, I can only speak for the AFX spindle.

Re: your buddy's car and the bumpsteer- did you guys actually measure it or is it a seat of the pants feeling?

Tyler

[online170]

Right i forgot about that.

Was measured using an I-pod's accelerometer. The same software does "dyno" as well, and we measured a new car's factory power rating against the software, and it was pretty damn close. (like 5%).

We fixed it to the floor in each of the cars, and did a G test. The buick went first, and i could only squeeze out 0.63 lateral G and 0.68 braking (all drums). 70 sidewall 14" tires front, and 60 sidewall 15s in the back. (205 and 215 respectively)

The cutlass ringed out 0.86 G lateral, i dont remember the braking, but it was a bit higher than mine. When the car let go in the corner, it was all 4 wheels evenly, no under or over steer. 15" street tires, kinda old and hard. (225/265 front/rear).

In regards to bump steer, hes had this car about 6 years now, and it received the TVS last year. Weve been to the 1/4 mile track with it every year (very bumpy) and the car is hard to control at the end of the track where the car traps 100+ mph. You could have gone almost 3/4 of a turn each way and the car wouldnt have responded.

With the "corrected alignment" it doesnt do that any more, points straight. The track has gotten even bumpier since way back then if anything.


G's measured, not sure how to measure bumpsteer though. Feels alot more manageable now though.

[Bryce]

Bring the Tech, Im loving it!

[John Wright]

not sure how to measure bumpsteer though.Here this should help.....

http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=13

[93Polo]

Right i forgot about that.

Was measured using an I-pod's accelerometer. The same software does "dyno" as well, and we measured a new car's factory power rating against the software, and it was pretty damn close. (like 5%).

We fixed it to the floor in each of the cars, and did a G test. The buick went first, and i could only squeeze out 0.63 lateral G and 0.68 braking (all drums). 70 sidewall 14" tires front, and 60 sidewall 15s in the back. (205 and 215 respectively)

The cutlass ringed out 0.86 G lateral, i dont remember the braking, but it was a bit higher than mine. When the car let go in the corner, it was all 4 wheels evenly, no under or over steer. 15" street tires, kinda old and hard. (225/265 front/rear).

In regards to bump steer, hes had this car about 6 years now, and it received the TVS last year. Weve been to the 1/4 mile track with it every year (very bumpy) and the car is hard to control at the end of the track where the car traps 100+ mph. You could have gone almost 3/4 of a turn each way and the car wouldnt have responded.

With the "corrected alignment" it doesnt do that any more, points straight. The track has gotten even bumpier since way back then if anything.


G's measured, not sure how to measure bumpsteer though. Feels alot more manageable now though.


Was the G # on a skid pad and did it hold for a constant radius? The G# can be skewed greatly by radius and other changes.

3/4 turn? I didn't have that problem with my stock F41 suspension under my '70 Chevelle on stock 14" SS wheels.

SC&C can be hard to reach but worth the time. Also if you are keeping stock A arms be sure to inspect them throughly, members have broken them.

Love the Tech thanks for sticking around Tyler.

[John Wright]

Bring the Tech, Im loving it!Me too.....learning something new every day.:)

[monteboy84]

Getting that car to handle will NOT run you $5000 or whatever you thought the Savitske package was. When I spoke with Marcus (great guy), the package he recommended for my G-Body was about $700, plus springs and Bilsteins (still <$1500).

I can't see the kit for an A-body costing much more, and it DOES address the poor geometry these cars have/had. Give him a shout, it can't hurt to at least know what he offers can it?

[wmhjr]

I'll start off by saying that I think a lot of both Marcus at SC&C and Frank at Prodigy. IMHO, both are invaluable resources and contributors to our hobby. I've spent more money than I'd like at both (though probably less than either would like :) )

I bought my suspension - front and rear - from Marcus. Front uppers AND lowers, tall ball joints, Stage II+, Currie Currectrac rears (upper and lower), front and rear sway bars, stainless hardware, a custom ball joint tool (highly recommended), coils all around. Everything, shipped to my door PLUS PA tax of 6% was less than $2500. I used "stock" type spindles. Had to buy my Bilstein shocks separately (don't like the Edelbrock IAS shocks either). Shocks were another $314. You may not want to go to the extent I did so it could be cheaper - not to mention you won't pay $203 to PA in sales tax if you live elsewhere. Just trying to set expectations.

[TitoJones]

Back to the top; awaiting tech reply from Hotchkis. I want to hear your responses to my questions.

Tyler

[online170]

Was the G # on a skid pad and did it hold for a constant radius? The G# can be skewed greatly by radius and other changes.

3/4 turn? I didn't have that problem with my stock F41 suspension under my '70 Chevelle on stock 14" SS wheels.

SC&C can be hard to reach but worth the time. Also if you are keeping stock A arms be sure to inspect them throughly, members have broken them.

Love the Tech thanks for sticking around Tyler.


The G was measured in a turn. We just went for a drive on a twist road, and see how high the number could go.

There is likely some error in it, but i beleive it to be small. I dont know how long it could sustain the 0.86 G, but it hit it momentarily. Might have to find a big parking lot and try it the way you suggest.


Also your chevelle might have a quicker box, the olds has the 17:1 i think it is, and this track is REALLY bumpy, so 3/4 turn is not out of the ordinary.

Funny enough, this car has the F41 suspension as well, albeit kind of old springs. (front and rear sway bar, 12bolt, boxed control arms, and frame stiffener).

Thanks for the link on the bumpsteer, i had no idea it could be measured like that.

[MonzaRacer]

I can tell you UNLESS YOU LISTEN your not gonna like the end results after about 6 months.
Heck a good old fashion rebuild with some reasonably priced springs and poly or delrin bushings will make you think you bought a race car, add in some sticky tires and lighter wheels and your gonna dance in the streets, till it crosses up .
Markus over at SC&C is another Frank Serafine(IE Prodigy) he will talk your leg off on an interesting topic. AND as for OTHER poster I remember when they were slamming another type of suspension and the company producing it,,,so I take everything from them with bag of salt.
Do they have certain parts that will make you car handle, yep, do they match shock rate to springs, yep, do they add in rear bars where none really are needed,, been there.
Honestly spend the cash on fixing the inherent design flaws in the front end geometry, THEN invest in springs and shocks and big sway bar.
You fix the positive camber gain, dial in a healthy dose of positive caster, tune out bump steer and put on some sticky tires(heck most Firestone stores can still get you 235/60/16 PV41 tires, very sticky and v Rated to start so older Z wheels can be used till better 17/18 in wheels are afforded.
I can tell you Geometry makes a car handle.
NOT PARTS alone.
Fix the camber gain in your A-body, get Lee to build a good fast ratio box with proper valving and a good pump with cooler if needed, get some decent rate springs/valved or double adjustable shocks and look around for a better sway bar and some good stickyt tires.
Do I believe what Tyler says, yes, would I talk to Marcus absolutely, infacT he is gonna prototype my upper control arms for my Monza(basicly a G body spindle adapted) Lee is getting my steering box and Ridetech will the nod for my ShockWave(down the road) and the rear will have an inhouse designed 4 link and inhouse built watts link(onething I never used to understand but do now)and its gonna have Vette brakes and 17s too.
All for lots o cash, but it will be done over time so who cares.
Fix your geometry , get some good springs/shocks and freshen up all the weak old parts and have a good steering box done by Lee then see if you REALLY need that huge by large sway bar(s).

Oh and if you listen rather than spend cash on one "fix it " kit you may learn a little more than "buy" a kit,, uh ahem system.

Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[LS6 Tommy]

If I knew about SC &C before I started my project (& I had a bit more money) I would have definitely gone with their package.

Anyway, just a few personal observastions-

I have never liked some of the manufacturer's "one size fits all" design approach. I spoke to quite a few manufacturers before I started my 80 Malibu projet. Very few would commit to specific springs (some wouldn't even consider guessing about a spring package) for my Malibu with an iron head 454. No one except Doug (Global West). He just said "Oh, I like spring XX for the front & XX for the rear on that setup". Personally, I would never use poly or solid bushings on any 3 or 4 link rear suspension. Anyway, I'm not gonna bash any other name brands here, just give my impressions from what I've actually used. I have used Doug's products before & have never been unhappy with the results. I'm aware of the increase in bumpsteer involved with the B-body spindle conversion & have found it to really be not all that much worse than the less than perfect factory bumpsteer. If you're already modifying & fabricating stuff, it's an easy fix anyway. BTW, increasing front track on a car that is intended to handle is generally considered to be a GOOD thing & 3/8" overall is negligable unless you're having clearance problems to begin with. I would hazard a guess that more aftermarket front end kits increase track width than you'd think, especialy ones that upgrade the brakes.

In the end, talk to all the groups you're considering, be honest with yourself when you weigh out your intentions. Don't get romanced by all the shiny "race" stuff if you're just driving the car & may have an occasional track day or time attack event. There's nothing wrong with getting better parts than you need, just keep your budget & target in mind.

In the long run YOUR the one that needs to be happy. It's your car, do what YOU want.

Tommy

[TitoJones]

Come on Hotchkis! You've been on the boards 4 times since you posted in this thread last. Don't be afraid of technical discussions; sooner or later you are going to have to post up something other than marketing hype.

The time has come, the gauntlet has been thrown down. Accept the challenge or tuck tail and stay out of these threads until you can add something with some substance to it.

Tyler

[analyte]

This whole topic has been great. I've got popcorn in hand awaiting the response from Hotchkis!!!

[Lowend]

Come on Hotchkis! You've been on the boards 4 times since you posted in this thread last. Don't be afraid of technical discussions; sooner or later you are going to have to post up something other than marketing hype.

The time has come, the gauntlet has been thrown down. Accept the challenge or tuck tail and stay out of these threads until you can add something with some substance to it.

Tyler


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/2gudt7t-1.jpg

... sorry, was looking for excuse to use that

[Norm Peterson]

The cutlass ringed out 0.86 G lateral, i dont remember the braking, but it was a bit higher than mine. When the car let go in the corner, it was all 4 wheels evenly, no under or over steer. 15" street tires, kinda old and hard. (225/265 front/rear).
It really doesn't take much work to hit 0.8g if all you need to do is be able to brag that you ran the number. 225/60 or 235/60 15" tires all around on 8" or wider wheels, slightly stiffened suspension (poly sta-bar endlinks, stiffer Moog spring part numbers), better shocks, and a mild performance alignment is probably enough to get you that far(?) up the ladder. That does assume that the rest of the suspension (bushings, ball joints, other wear & tear items) are in good condition, and that the chassis (frame, body, and mounts) itself is sound. Don't laugh too hard concerning that last one; frames crack, body bushings deteriorate, and body fasteners rust/break/pull out.

But the quickie tires/wheels/springs/bars/shocks/look ma I'm done approach does not fix other aspects of handling - how the car actually feels as you try to make it execute more aggressive maneuvers. Things like how willing it is to turn in as you enter a corner, or how well it transitions from being in a hard left turn to going into a hard right. Or the bumpsteer. And those things add more to your daily enjoyment of driving the car than "knowing" that your car is good for one or two more hundredths of a lateral g than the next guy's car equipped about the same way.



In regards to bump steer, hes had this car about 6 years now, and it received the TVS last year. Weve been to the 1/4 mile track with it every year (very bumpy) and the car is hard to control at the end of the track where the car traps 100+ mph. You could have gone almost 3/4 of a turn each way and the car wouldnt have responded.

With the "corrected alignment" it doesnt do that any more, points straight. The track has gotten even bumpier since way back then if anything.

G's measured, not sure how to measure bumpsteer though. Feels alot more manageable now though.
I guess you've seen how bumpsteer is measured. So maybe it'll make a little more sense now to suggest that if you find yourself sawing back and forth on the steering wheel in order to maintain position in your lane (or on your chosen line) through a turn as the car heaves a little over small rises and dips in the pavement . . . that's a bumpsteer issue that could stand fixing. Having the car stuttering all over the place from no two wheels ever hitting sharp little bumps quite simultaneously (and the rear two trying to steer the car first one way and then the other due to unequal traction) is not bumpsteer.


Norm

[TitoJones]

This thread should be reason enough to make people research a manufacturer's claims. I can say XYZ products just flat out WORK and then never return to back any of that up with any solid tech what so ever.

Looks like Hotchkis knows what I said is not only accurate but sound advice. (They have now been on the boards 7 more times and still they ignore requests to provide data and theory behind their claims)

If you think getting into a public discussion about the technical merits of your products is a bad enough idea that you pretend it isn't happening; well then. You are going to hate when I dissect your website and the outlandish claims and lack of education you provide therein.

As DSE likes to say- " The suspension revolution has begun."
Your clients are smarter than ever. They read up on forums like these. They know what bumpsteer is, how to measure it, and why they want to reduce it. You would be wise to fully educate people about their platform, its short comings and what your product does to correct them.

I'm going to continue this later this afternoon, and I'm going to start with this statement from your webpage (http://www.hotchkis.net/gm_abody_tubular_lower_control_arms.html):



Install the Geometry Corrected Hotchkis Tubular Lower A-Arms on your 64-72 GM A-Body including Chevelle, El Camino, GTO and 442 and gain vastly increased handling and control. These TIG welded, bolt-on control arms offer ride height adjustment for ultimate performance and a great look, regardless of engine and transmission combinations. Smooth operating Delrin bushings allow the control arms to move through their travel easily. Finished in gloss black powder coat, the arms are ready to install and are complete with ball joints, bump stops, ride height shims, polyurethane coil spring locators and Delrin bushings.
Exceptional handling performance when combined with the Hotchkis Tubular Upper A-Arms.

Features:

* 100% TIG welded 1.5” tubular steel construction.
* CNC machined inset spring cup.
* Precision aluminum ride height adjustment shims.
* Polyurethane coil spring isolators.
* Easy to lubricate Delrin bushings.
* Lower ball joint installed.
* Laser cut “Hotchkis” logo.
* Gloss black powder coat finish.
* Includes “Rod End” style end links.

Benefits:

* CAD designed and analyzed by FEA software for ultimate strength.
* Increased structural rigidity due to CNC machined inset spring cup.
* Aluminum shims allow for ¼” to ½” ride height adjustment. Additional shims available separately.
* Delrin bushings allow smooth operation with minimal deflection through travel range.

Geometry corrected lower control arms? Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. Over. I guess I missed the part where you added the taller lower ball joint to these; or perhaps it has a relocated ball joint pocket to increase caster like the DSE F body lower control arms do? From the description you guys have on these there isn't a damn thing these things do to correct anything about the geometry. That is what we call false advertising.

This one (http://www.hotchkis.net/gm_abody_tubular_upper_aarm_for_tall_spindle_swap. html) is pretty good too; not totally inaccurate but you forgot to mention a few key points:

Note: Arms do not work with factory spindles! Spindles required are 70-76 GM F-Body, or 78+ GM B-Body. Spindles will lower vehicle 3/4" and widen track width 3/8" per side. Please consult a Hotchkis Representative with any specific questions regarding this conversion.

You forgot to mention that the steering radius is increased, as well as response is slowed, and the bumpsteer is roughly doubled from the factory setup. Oh yeah, and that there are about 5 better suited spindles released into the market place in the last few years; L&H, ATS, DSE, etc. Every product has a finite lifespan and with the technology advancing for these cars as fast as it is, the B body swap is hardly state of the art.

I'll be back in here later this afternoon; I've only been on your site for 10 minutes and I've already found lots of 'dis-information' as you so eloquently put.

Tyler

[ZZ427]

TKO . . . OUCH ! ! ! This is getting interesting , I'm in the proccess of building my suspension very informative. Back to your regularly scheduled program .

['70rs]

Good info guys. Please keep it coming. I am getting an education here and I appreciate everyones input.

[Rod]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/Apopcorn-1.gif

this is fun

[Hotchkis]

Hi All,

We were out at the track Thursday through Sunday running an Autocross at Mopars at the Strip, then it took a few days to get back on the boards because, frankly, we didn't know what to make of all this.

Before we get into suspension we'd like to clear a few things up. Hotchkis Performance has been in business since 1992 - our parts are designed, tested and built right here in Santa Fe Springs. We have sold thousands of systems, and they work great. Are they the slickest, trickest, most high-tech suspension systems on the planet? Nope. But they do work very well, as dozens of suspension shootout, autocross and road race victories prove.

From the very beginning our parts have been designed to bolt on with hand tools and deliver excellent bang-for-your-buck. We have professionally trained engineers and former LeMans and Sebring drivers on staff - we could engineer suspension that requires sophisticated setup to install but that's not the point - our parts are built to go on easy and make a big difference to the average muscle car guy.

With that said, we are friends with the folks at DSE, Art Morrison Enterprises, Ride Tech, Pfadt and most of the other suspension companies because we view the aftermarket as a family. We don't try to dissect or take down another brand's product because that hurts everyone. There are so many stock Camaros and Chevelles running around at GoodGuys shows we just hope people turn them into pro-touring cars. That's why we run track tests and autocross events. If they use our parts, great. If they go with Detroit Speed, Ride Tech or AME, more power to them. There is a system for everyone and we just like seeing more pro-touring cars on the road.

So... we're pretty baffled by Tyler's behavior. This thread was started by a gentleman looking for feedback on Hotchkis vs Edelbrock. Then when the thread jacking started the original poster clearly stated he wasn't looking for a full blown package and really just wanted info on his original question. Then Tyler started in with the profanity and the attacks. We understand that he's a younger guy and he wants to push the message of one of his vendors. But there's no need for profanity and flame wars in a forum like pro-touring.com.

We're sure they make decent parts, but when folks like Tyler and his vendor jack threads just to bash companies it doesn't help anyone.

The original poster never even asked about arms - he was talking about a TVS. For the record, at the Super Chevy shootout our customer's wagon out-performed both DSE and Edelbrock in the autocross - and no, at the time we were not an advertiser in the magazine and Mary P was doing the driving. Kyle's car beat us on the skid pad and it was basically a push in the ride-and-drive. Does our system make huge improvements in handling while maintaining a comfortable ride? You bet.

We're all for having a technical discussion, that type of discourse helps everyone spread new ideas. But we're not interested in having a flame war. Our parts work well, are easy to install and make huge improvements in handling at a reasonable cost. We have enjoyed being on this forum for many years and try to answer questions and contribute to conversations whenever possible in a fun, respectful way.

These guys have been using tactics like this on some of the other boards, and now they're bringing the vitriol to this forum. Hopefully it doesn't stand. Either way we'll keep supporting the hobby and building high-quality parts, and hopefully the new ATS owners up in Canada will continue their policy of friendly competition they started with Speedtech.

We'd be happy to answer questions in any new threads. Please feel free to contact us anytime through the forums or our website.

As far as playing forum games with our disgruntled friend here, we don't have time or energy for that kind of behavior. Our parts are working in the real world, on real cars and that's why we make them. Let's keep this forum positive and helpful.

[JRouche]

I wasnt gonna check into this thread because it was car specific, and to be honest I dont know much about the 71 Buick skylark suspension.

But after reading all the posts it caught my eye.

One of the things that looked odd was how the OP online170 started out as asking a Q about two specific suppliers and it turned into a overall witch hunt. Not good IMO.

Im thinking if a guy has more subjective info to add other than the original question asked he should take it to a PM or email. Specially if it includes a negative slant.

Otherwise the poster of info looks like he is on his own soapbox when he posts it here for all to comment on. If the helpful poster has subjective info to add that might put another manufacture in a bad light and doesnt take it to PM or email then he is either trying to take advantage of the "in" he got to soapbox, or just doesnt relize it would be better to take it to a personal discussion with the OP on PM or email.

Tyler, when you provoke hotchkis techs repeatedly to get on here and justify their product you appear like you are on a flimsy wooden crate holding a sharp stick and pointing it at them. Sorry bud but it kinda diminishes your technical expertise. You become the ranting dude on the wooden crate that is looking for attention. Not yer best work.

And um, hotchkis tech or whoever dude. Whatever your name is because you didnt sign yer post below (kinda an issue with me, sign yer name to yer post buddy, I dont care who you are, own yer words).

I liked most of what you posted, you show that what you guys make is marketed to the average Joe that can get some wrenches out and install some aftermarket pieces. And Im sure there is a huge market for that. I applaud you guys for getting the product out there. Keep up the good work. There are many satisfied customers!!

But I have to say the digs at Tyler's posts were out of line.

I dont remember reading him talking profanity. It either got deleted or you are just too thin skinned. Was it the word ass? Ok, if so then dont come around my house. Cause the words get alot worse than that :) I slip a wrench and take some knuckle skin off it gets ugly. But I didnt read any profanity that was directed at you. Sounds like you are reaching to the supper conservatives. Save that for church. This is car talk.

Then the dig at us young folks. "We understand that he's a younger guy".. You have to be careful with those statements buddy. Do you know what your market group age is???? Any idea? Im 45 young and to be honest I didnt see anything that Taylor said as being immature. He has some verified stats. Careful on the alienation of the "younger" guys. We are listening.

So enough with MY soapbox....

Taylor has some great points as far as the technical side of what can be corrected on the cars suspension in question. No doubt. I agree with him. I also liked what Norm had to say and whats funny. The OP(online170) also had some great points. Shows our forum is filled with knowledgeable folks, even the guys asking the questions. JR




Hi All,

We were out at the track Thursday through Sunday running an Autocross at Mopars at the Strip, then it took a few days to get back on the boards because, frankly, we didn't know what to make of all this.

Before we get into suspension we'd like to clear a few things up. Hotchkis Performance has been in business since 1992 - our parts are designed, tested and built right here in Santa Fe Springs. We have sold thousands of systems, and they work great. Are they the slickest, trickest, most high-tech suspension systems on the planet? Nope. But they do work very well, as dozens of suspension shootout, autocross and road race victories prove.

From the very beginning our parts have been designed to bolt on with hand tools and deliver excellent bang-for-your-buck. We have professionally trained engineers and former LeMans and Sebring drivers on staff - we could engineer suspension that requires sophisticated setup to install but that's not the point - our parts are built to go on easy and make a big difference to the average muscle car guy.

With that said, we are friends with the folks at DSE, Art Morrison Enterprises, Ride Tech, Pfadt and most of the other suspension companies because we view the aftermarket as a family. We don't try to dissect or take down another brand's product because that hurts everyone. There are so many stock Camaros and Chevelles running around at GoodGuys shows we just hope people turn them into pro-touring cars. That's why we run track tests and autocross events. If they use our parts, great. If they go with Detroit Speed, Ride Tech or AME, more power to them. There is a system for everyone and we just like seeing more pro-touring cars on the road.

So... we're pretty baffled by Tyler's behavior. This thread was started by a gentleman looking for feedback on Hotchkis vs Edelbrock. Then when the thread jacking started the original poster clearly stated he wasn't looking for a full blown package and really just wanted info on his original question. Then Tyler started in with the profanity and the attacks. We understand that he's a younger guy and he wants to push the message of one of his vendors. But there's no need for profanity and flame wars in a forum like pro-touring.com.

We're sure they make decent parts, but when folks like Tyler and his vendor jack threads just to bash companies it doesn't help anyone.

The original poster never even asked about arms - he was talking about a TVS. For the record, at the Super Chevy shootout our customer's wagon out-performed both DSE and Edelbrock in the autocross - and no, at the time we were not an advertiser in the magazine and Mary P was doing the driving. Kyle's car beat us on the skid pad and it was basically a push in the ride-and-drive. Does our system make huge improvements in handling while maintaining a comfortable ride? You bet.

We're all for having a technical discussion, that type of discourse helps everyone spread new ideas. But we're not interested in having a flame war. Our parts work well, are easy to install and make huge improvements in handling at a reasonable cost. We have enjoyed being on this forum for many years and try to answer questions and contribute to conversations whenever possible in a fun, respectful way.

These guys have been using tactics like this on some of the other boards, and now they're bringing the vitriol to this forum. Hopefully it doesn't stand. Either way we'll keep supporting the hobby and building high-quality parts, and hopefully the new ATS owners up in Canada will continue their policy of friendly competition they started with Speedtech.

We'd be happy to answer questions in any new threads. Please feel free to contact us anytime through the forums or our website.

As far as playing forum games with our disgruntled friend here, we don't have time or energy for that kind of behavior. Our parts are working in the real world, on real cars and that's why we make them. Let's keep this forum positive and helpful.

[LS1NOVA]

Probably no chance now but Id STILL like to hear from Hotchkis about what their components due to improve geometry. Is the handling improvement just due to stiffer bushings, sway bars, lower ride height and tires?

[wellis77]

I'd still like to hear as well. I'm still learning what does and doesn't make these things handle well and these tech discussions are just the cure. I also think it's fair to have these discussions in the open. Having the just "work" is great, but I want to know why they work and what makes it a better option than something else.

[Bryce]

Maybe we start a new thread that is just tech. I am all about the numbers, either post install test data (hotchkis is doing a great job with that) or suspension geometry. Obviously the latter is proprietary data and not too many companies want to share that.

[online170]

Maybe we start a new thread that is just tech. I am all about the numbers, either post install test data (hotchkis is doing a great job with that) or suspension geometry. Obviously the latter is proprietary data and not too many companies want to share that.

I think thats a good idea.

At this point i have more questions than answers. Im probably going to end up installing new hotckis springs and shocks, and just replace the factory bushings.

[TitoJones]

I have been asked by the owners of PT to refrain from continuing. It's never popular to call a spade a spade and I don't do it for attention, nor do I do it to boost sales for another company. Rest assured that I have no ties to Speedtech or ATS and what I do and say should not be a reflection on them or those companies. I have never been one to shy away from pointing out claims are typically just that; claims. So is what I said out of line? I sure don't think so. Did they respond to a single thing I asked? No they didn't.

I have been here for 9 years trying to help car enthusiasts make informed decisions. Sometimes that means going against the grain and calling out a 'big name' for stating things that are not true. I've gotten into heated technical discussions with Fatman, Air Ride, DSE, L&H Customs, Martz Chassis, Chris Fesler etc all with the single purpose of uncovering the bullsh*t from the tech. Call it a witch hunt, call it me being on a soap box, call it bashing; at the end of the day we all need to be accountable for factual information. That's what makes forums like PT, Lateral-G and many many others like this so great. We can have an actual discussion about theory, design, and performance and apply it to manufacturers product lines. I have an axe to grind with anyone who claims things that are flat out proven to be untrue. Hiding behind 'proprietary information' is a cop out. I'm sure that there at least 4 companies founders that would love to knock me out every time we see each other at SEMA or Goodguys events. I would say that I have it coming should it ever escalate past the internet and into real life. I know lots of you lurk and read this and love that I have the balls to say what most of you are thinking. I get PM'd all the time about it; at the same time I make life a living hell for Larry, and the awesome mod staff we have here because an equal if not larger number of members here hate that I do this stuff.

I'll end this with the knowledge that I know what I do is frowned upon, not popular, and can show me in a negative light. I'm totally at peace with all of that and sleep very well at night. Politics will always play a part in every aspect of peoples lives and I'll typically be the one a$$hole fighting the powers that be to uncover the truth.

I'm off before the ban hammer comes out.

Tyler

[zbugger]

Maybe we start a new thread that is just tech. I am all about the numbers, either post install test data (hotchkis is doing a great job with that) or suspension geometry. Obviously the latter is proprietary data and not too many companies want to share that.

That's a great idea. And I think the thread is done here. If you want it reopened, let me know and I'll do so.