Problems installing DSE LCAs in '73 Trans Am -- Please help!!

[thefirebirdman]

If anyone has installed these in a Firebird before I'd love to hear from you. Night 1 I tried a straight up install and pretty much saw the same exact results your about to read. I did some research and came across this post:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=460953&postcount=109

I tried this out tonight and as you'll read it really didn't make a difference. Any help is appreciated.

Well round two resoundingly goes to the control arms. :sad: I'm so pissed and frustrated now. I know your all going to think I haven't done something to get it right but I am about 99% convinced that these LCAs are not going to install on my sub-frame. I tried the expander thing and while it did make it easier to get the lca in and out it didn't fix my problem. I'm not even sure how I can describe it so that everyone can understand what I'm seeing. Basically, the bolt that goes through the arm of the LCA that is towards the front of the car goes in at such an angle that there's now way that the other side is going to line up. Here's a few pics:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09220-1.jpg

Here's a shot of the whole LCA.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09221-1.jpg

This is the short arm of the LCA that is towards the front of the car. You can see that the bolt is all the way in. When I drive the LCA into the forward channel with the rubber mallet, I have to drive it to a point where I can insert the bolt in the side of the channel facing the car. At this point you can insert the bolt all the way to the other side but not completely through. In order to get it completely through I have to now bang up on the LCA basically lifting it back up (which raises the long arm that faces towards the rear of the car). If I can lift enough, I can get the bolt all the way through as seen in the pic above. The result is the longer arm that faces towards the rear of the car is sitting so high there's no way its going to go down enough to line up the holes. Here's a pic of the longer arm facing towards the rear of the car with the bolt in the shorter arm facing towards the front of the car fully inserted.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09222-1.jpg

Another closer shot, this is close as I can get it.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09223-1.jpg

Now if I start over and put the bolt in the longer arm that faces towards the rear of the car, that works fine. I can get the bolt fully inserted fairly easily. I then drive the other side down into its channel and once I have driven down far enough to insert the bolt into the holt that faces the front of the car, I can insert the bolt and push it in but again it will not go all the way through because it is not lined up with the hole on the side of the channel that faces the rear of the car. And since the bolt is fully inserted into the longer arm that faces the rear of the car I cannot lift the shorter arm up enough to get the bolt all the way through. Man, I bet thats confusing. Assuming I have the bolt fully inserted in the longer arm that faces the rear of the car and have the bolt started into the shorter arm that faces the front of the car this is what I am left with:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09174-1.jpg

As you can see the bolt is below the hole sitting at a downward angle that will not let it come through all the way. With the bolt fully inserted in the longer arm on the other side, there is no room to lift this arm to get this bolt all the way through.
So, I am concerned there is either something wrong with these lower control arms or something wrong with my sub-frame. Its already been suggested to insert a wooden down through the bushings to ensure they line up. Is it critical, if I do that test, that the wooden dowel be as big as the diameter of the hole or as close as it can be I mean so it fills the hole? I'm assuming that is important but I didn't have a wooden dowel so I used the small metal tube extension off the blower that I attach to the compressor. Using that it went through both bushings easily but since the diameter of that metal tube was significantly smaller than the diameter of the hole in the bushing I'm not sure how good of a test that was. If the arm is twisted/bent from the factory what are the odds both arms have the same problem? I'm seeing this EXACT same problem on both sides.
For the frame I did something similiar with the metal tube and wanted to post a couple of pics to see if you guys can help me determine if there is something wrong with this sub-frame or not. Anything is possible however, A) the factory LCAs were installed and working when I took apart and B) I am seeing the EXACT same problem on both sides so what are the odds my frame has the same problem on both sides. So to illustrate how the angle in the forward set of holes seems to be different than the rear set of holes I used the same metal tube to test the alignment. I inserted the metal tube into the first hole facing towards the front of the car for the short arm and pushed it through. Placing equal pressure on the tube so that it is pressed against the bottom of both holes for the short arm, I wanted to see where it would make contact on the bracket for the longer arm that faces the rear of the car. Not surprisingly it did not even come close to the two holes on the rearward bracket. It landed a good 1/2" above the hole. Pictures:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09228-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09228-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09233-1.jpg

So is this normal? Expected? Or should the rod have gone cleanly through all 4 holes? Like I said the factory control arms WERE installed in this sub-frame when we dis-assembled it. It actually makes sense because where the metal tube made contact with the rear bracket:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09233-1.jpg

Is almost exactly where the bushing holes are sitting in the rearward facing arm when the bolt for the forward facing arm is fully inserted:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09223-1.jpg

Planning to call DSE tomorrow for what that's worth but wanted to put this out there to see what kind of feedback I could get.

[David Pozzi]

On a first gen Camaro the frame holes line up. I think they also do on a second gen, but I can't say for sure. I recall hearing that 3rd gen's don't line up, and the lower A arms are very similar. I have some stock lower arms with delrin bushings we used on our second gen, I can check them tomorrow, I don't have a bare sub handy to look at.
Check with DSE though.
David

[David Pozzi]

Well, I put on my slippers and went out to the garage right now, it's 11:30pm. The holes line up on our stock a arms, so I think you have a subframe problem.

[formula]

mental image of david pozzi in pajamas and slippers, carefully examining a control arm in the middle of the night: hilarious.

[thefirebirdman]

Well, I put on my slippers and went out to the garage right now, it's 11:30pm. The holes line up on our stock a arms, so I think you have a subframe problem.

David, THANKS!! I really appreciate that. Hard to believe since both sides are exactly the same. I will prob go out there this morning and take some measurements on it and see what i come up with. If anyone else has a bare sub-frame and can check on this, I'd appreciate it. Luckily I have access to a sub-frame for a '73 Camaro that I can use if I have to.

[dipren443]

mental image of david pozzi in pajamas and slippers, carefully examining a control arm in the middle of the night: hilarious.

Hilarious, but not out of character at all!!!! :cool:

[Chevy Kid]

I had a control arm one time that was bent. A 1/2" rod would not go (but should) through all the way. So, agreeing with the others, I think you have a bent frame.

Tim

[TitoJones]

Dumb idea here-

What about the old lowers (factory) you took off? Can you get a rod through those from one side to the other? What about the DSE lowers, can you get a rod through them?

Tyler

[thefirebirdman]

Quick update. I bought a 2' long 1/2" threaded rod and I went to storage and grabbed the original lowers. I'm going to insert the rod through the frame mounts to verify it will not go all the way through and check both the DSE and original LCAs to see if it goes all the way through. The problem with the original LCAs is I have already removed the bushings so its not going to be much of a check.

Also, I spoke over the phone to a guy over on Trans Am Country named John (Johnsma22) and he said he ran into a similiar problem when he installed the DSE LCAs that he was working with. He mentioned that his mechanic buddy used a Pin Wrench to fix the problem. Basically they backed the bolt out but didn't remove it completely and then used the pin wrench to get the problem hole lined up properly. Once it was lined up, they left the pin wrench in and drove the bolt through essentially using it to drive the pin wrench out and allowing the bolt to come through, SOOOO, I went and bought a pin wrench and will be trying this myself later. Pray for me that it will work, lol. I really want to move on with this build

[thefirebirdman]

Actually suprised more folks here at PT haven't installed DSEs, albeit this thread is not very old.

[MrQuick]

We have Edele's on our 70 project and the rod does go through.

I made a jig for a 70 Frame and the 1/2" rod hits here.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36921&d=1269020997

I radius that area for rod to pass, very little removed, 1/2" circle with 1/8" of material.

Hate to say it but we have run into this many times and the misalignment might have been due to a previous repair of the rear LCA mount. (in the area of the red square) Sometimes they get rewelded/repaired with the old arm in the frame.

In the past, you might get away with aligning the rubber bushings but not with the stiffer Del's

You can fix by cutting rear mount welds, align the holes and re weld OR redrill the holes. Either way i'd reinforce that area just to be sure, it is a common shear point . Be sure to carefully inspect the front xmember for repair welds. I doubt they are but best to make sure.

If you force the arm in you will either eventually break the rear mount or put pressure on the arms and wear the hell out of the arm bushings.

good luck.

vince

[Lowend]

There is a little bit od wedge built into some 2nd gens. It's why Pro-Touring Fobody uses a spherical bearing in their lower a-arms

[thefirebirdman]

Tried the Pin Wrench and it didn't work. Partly because of the tool. It was so thin on the end that by the time I was even beginning to get closeto aligning the hole the bolt had been pushed out. Also looking at the other side the bushing had elevated to a point where the bolt could no longer be inserted. So I quit trying. Its just too far off and even I could make it work I'm concerned how much binding would be occurring. Called Dave at Pro-Touring F-Body and after he and I converse about the situation I am pretty much convinced this sub-frame was bottomed-out pretty hard at some point in the past and has caused these awkward angles. Dave confirmed that I absolutely should be able to insert the 1/2" metal rod I purchased through all four holes in the two channel braces and this frame is not even close as seen above. So, given that and the evidence of a hard hit on the bottom of the cross-member I've declared this frame DOA and am headed over to storage later tonight to get the other one I have access to. Will disassemble it, take some measurements, test fit these DSE LCAs and deliver it to the powder coater on Monday. Big step back, really sucks. :mad:

[JRouche]

Wow, I read all your posts. What a drag. But to be honest, its not that far off. Not saying it shouldnt be fixed though. Even if you could have forced the bolt in there it would have been too much static load on the bushings and bolts to make me happy if it were my car.

Now, interesting how the thought of a hard landing or two might have bent the sub. Im not sure I agree with that. On a hard bottoming out the mounts would be pinched and compressed not opened up like they appear to be.

The up rights look to be pulled away from each other. On a hard hit the upper control arm will not take as much force as the lowers. I would expect to see the lower mounts deformed before the upper mounts. And if the hit was hard enough the lowers would show some deformation. How did the lower mounts work out.

And say the hit was strong enough to tweak the upper mounts it would do it in the opposite direction from what you have going on. It would drive the upper arm mounts closer together. As the spindle came up in a hard hit it would pull the upper arm up and pull the mounts in if anything, not out.

I dont think its (the sub) off. I just think the tabs are off a little, and not by much.

Now, if it were me in my garage doing this I would try a few things. Some of the stuff is prolly useless, but just the way I am, I try anything.

One thing I would have done was get a solid bar and place it on the most forward section of the sub, across it. Then I would have jacked the front of the sub up, supporting all the cars weight on the bar. Basically putting some flex on the sub to compress it slightly to see if that moved the holes any.

And because I dont have any other subs hanging out I would align (tweak) the tabs. You werent off that much. I say that because they are both off equally on both sides. So its a uniform issue. So I would look for a common fix for both sides.

And the tweaking of the tabs is a simple process of using a slotted piece of metal that slips over the tab that fully contacts the entire tab and using a nice long (four foot) piece of steel to pull the tab over slightly. And it doesnt take much in your case. Thats why you use a long bar. So you can use little pressure and be exact. You could pull both forward tabs over (on each side) by about 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch and the bolts will prolly slide right on in. Im thinking 1/32" will do it. Its no diff than using that spreader to open the tabs up.

I know!! It sounds like a hack job to tweak the control arm tabs. But really. You arent changing the geometry of the suspension. The control arms will still dictate the overall geometry. By tweaking the tabs in by a 1/16" you arent relocating the fore and aft position of the control arms. It is a set dimension (dictated by the control arm) as long as you keep either the forward or rearward mount intact. . And you arent changing the vertical position of the mounting location. Its just a small tweak to align the bolt holes. And you really arent off by much IMO. JR

[thefirebirdman]

Wow, I read all your posts. What a drag. But to be honest, its not that far off. Not saying it shouldnt be fixed though. Even if you could have forced the bolt in there it would have been too much static load on the bushings and bolts to make me happy if it were my car.

Now, interesting how the thought of a hard landing or two might have bent the sub. Im not sure I agree with that. On a hard bottoming out the mounts would be pinched and compressed not opened up like they appear to be.

The up rights look to be pulled away from each other. On a hard hit the upper control arm will not take as much force as the lowers. I would expect to see the lower mounts deformed before the upper mounts. And if the hit was hard enough the lowers would show some deformation. How did the lower mounts work out.

And say the hit was strong enough to tweak the upper mounts it would do it in the opposite direction from what you have going on. It would drive the upper arm mounts closer together. As the spindle came up in a hard hit it would pull the upper arm up and pull the mounts in if anything, not out.

I dont think its (the sub) off. I just think the tabs are off a little, and not by much.

Now, if it were me in my garage doing this I would try a few things. Some of the stuff is prolly useless, but just the way I am, I try anything.

One thing I would have done was get a solid bar and place it on the most forward section of the sub, across it. Then I would have jacked the front of the sub up, supporting all the cars weight on the bar. Basically putting some flex on the sub to compress it slightly to see if that moved the holes any.

And because I dont have any other subs hanging out I would align (tweak) the tabs. You werent off that much. I say that because they are both off equally on both sides. So its a uniform issue. So I would look for a common fix for both sides.

And the tweaking of the tabs is a simple process of using a slotted piece of metal that slips over the tab that fully contacts the entire tab and using a nice long (four foot) piece of steel to pull the tab over slightly. And it doesnt take much in your case. Thats why you use a long bar. So you can use little pressure and be exact. You could pull both forward tabs over (on each side) by about 1/32 to 1/16 of an inch and the bolts will prolly slide right on in. Im thinking 1/32" will do it. Its no diff than using that spreader to open the tabs up.

I know!! It sounds like a hack job to tweak the control arm tabs. But really. You arent changing the geometry of the suspension. The control arms will still dictate the overall geometry. By tweaking the tabs in by a 1/16" you arent relocating the fore and aft position of the control arms. It is a set dimension (dictated by the control arm) as long as you keep either the forward or rearward mount intact. . And you arent changing the vertical position of the mounting location. Its just a small tweak to align the bolt holes. And you really arent off by much IMO. JR

JR, appreciate the information, a lot. I'll give it some thought and I might test out some of your theories to see what I can do. One thing I wanted to make sure you weren't confused about is which control arms I'm working with. You mentioned the uppers a lot and I'm didn't have any problems with those. All the problems are with the lowers. Prob just the way I was reading your post. Anyway, given the feedback I was getting, and a good talk with Dave over at Pro-Touring F-Body and some damage that I already knew was there on the bottom of the crossmember (I wasn't too concerned before because the stock LCAs fit fine and the suspension performed ok - but it also had stock LCAs with rubber bushings) I finally decided enough was enough and went and got a spare sub-frame I had out of storage. So far everything is looking good with this one.

Well after tonight I finally have a bit of good news. :grin: Here is frame #2:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09250-1.jpg
My best friend and my son get in the act to help dis-assemble it:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09253-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09257-1.jpg
And this is what it should look like:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09265-1.jpg
Thanks to Dave and everyone else that mentioned the frame might be bad. Turns out that is most likely the case. Tomorrow we remove the Upper & Lower CAs, Spindle and Spring from the driver's side. I am going to repeat the stud check with the same 2' long stud and then I'm going to take a few measurements to make sure its square, perform an actual test fit of both the DSE LCAs to make sure I can get bolts all the way throw both braces on both sides and then a little grinding to clean up the welding chaff and its off to the powdercoater. Seeing the stud go through cleanly on this side was the best news I've had in 3 days!! Live and learn!! :)

[MrQuick]

good show, you might want to weld that one up real nice.

Don't you love having spare parts and good friends?
Vince

[thefirebirdman]

good show, you might want to weld that one up real nice.

Don't you love having spare parts and good friends?
Vince

Yes! I don't necessarily think it'd be hard to find another sub-frame but it would have taken a while and would've been a bit of a pain in the butt. We have one more after this so I'm glad we had some spares.

[thefirebirdman]

Success!! Once we had the frame bare we took all the measurements per Chapter 3 in the '73 Fisher Body Service Manual and everything checked out. I decided to clean out the inside of all the frame braces so the Delrin bushings on my LCAs didn't get damaged. I found a couple of them had a bit of metal built up around the holes and was able to ground them smooth. Even ran some coarse sandpaper of the critical areas to smooth it out.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09269-1.jpg
Test fit each LCA and both went in fine with no trouble. I did each side myself in just a matter of minutes. I barely had to use the rubber mallet.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09275-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09274-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09273-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC09272-1.jpg
Now all I have to do is to ground the frame smooth, getting rid of all the welding chaff and then its off to the powder-coater and this time I know the LCAs will install properly!!

[dipren443]

Have that thing seam welded before you powdercoat. You will never have this opportunity again once you put it back together....

[Northern Goat]

Actually suprised more folks here at PT haven't installed DSEs, albeit this thread is not very old.

Just found your thread. I thought I had the same problem when I tried installing my DSE LCAs on my 71 Firebird. I am lucky to have one of the best hiilybilly mechanics as a friend. He came over with as hydraulic spreader and opened up the pocket further than I could spread them and the LCA slid in with ease and everything lined up. I would try to rent or borrow such a spreader and try to open up the pocket somemore, don't worry the pocket closes up easily when you tighten up the bolts.
I hope this helps.

[79T/Aman]

Just found your thread. I thought I had the same problem when I tried installing my DSE LCAs on my 71 Firebird. I am lucky to have one of the best hiilybilly mechanics as a friend. He came over with as hydraulic spreader and opened up the pocket further than I could spread them and the LCA slid in with ease and everything lined up. I would try to rent or borrow such a spreader and try to open up the pocket somemore, don't worry the pocket closes up easily when you tighten up the bolts.
I hope this helps.

Look at the pics, the problem was not the width of the pocket but the hole alignment as you can see the A-arms fit just fine on the "new" frame

[thefirebirdman]

Have that thing seam welded before you powdercoat. You will never have this opportunity again once you put it back together....

Ok, newb questions. What is seam welding and what's the benefit? Just the increased structural rigidity?

[thefirebirdman]

Look at the pics, the problem was not the width of the pocket but the hole alignment as you can see the A-arms fit just fine on the "new" frame

Dave, THANKS AGAIN, for talking me through this over the phone. Other than having to wait 2 weeks to get going again with my build, I'm a happy camper.

:cheers:

[formula]

Ok, newb questions. What is seam welding and what's the benefit? Just the increased structural rigidity?

Bingo. A big boost to structural rigidity right where second gens need it the most.

[JRouche]

Hahaha.. Im an idiot. I dont know the car by looks and you DID say LCA many times. Im thinking I should bounce my ideas off yer helper first next time. That lil dude will set me straight. Glad you got it worked out. And I love seeing guys getting their kids out to help. Yer making the next generation or car enthusiasts right there. JR



JR, appreciate the information, a lot. I'll give it some thought and I might test out some of your theories to see what I can do. One thing I wanted to make sure you weren't confused about is which control arms I'm working with. You mentioned the uppers a lot and I'm didn't have any problems with those. All the problems are with the lowers. :)

[MrQuick]

Ok, newb questions. What is seam welding and what's the benefit? Just the increased structural rigidity?
yep, if you look real close to your frame you will find that half of it isn't welded and if it is its very poor. The rocker to floor pans are just as bad on these cars too.


vince

[thefirebirdman]

Thanks for the replies. I may be able to have something done on it before I take it to the powdercoater. Which ones need to be cleaned up. The two sides lengthwise?

[dipren443]

Thanks for the replies. I may be able to have something done on it before I take it to the powdercoater. Which ones need to be cleaned up. The two sides lengthwise?

I would say the two sides lengthwise and the cradle. Pretty much any where you see a seam of two pieces of metal together. I will see if i can find a good example for you.

This should work.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42059&highlight=damn+true&page=3

[Kenova]

I re-welded the sub in my '71 Nova. Once I had all of the crud cleaned off of it, the first thought that popped into my head was " Good Lord, they put big blocks in these things!?". For the world of me, I just don't know how or why that sub stayed in one piece. Some of the beads were only on one piece of steel.

Ken

[thefirebirdman]

Ok, that's what I figured you guys were talking about. Thanks for the clarification!!

[cdoggy81]

Glad to see you fixed it :)
You should start a build thread on your TA!

[thefirebirdman]

Ok guys, got a quote for $150 - $200 for the welding on the sub-frame. Does that sound about right??

Cdoggy, I see you over at PY and maybe TAC? I have a build thread going at TAC. Should have included it at PY as well. Here's the link:

http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=22686.0

[cdoggy81]

Ya, I'm on PY but not that much on TAC.
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out tonight :)

[msgnfg]

Wow - I am so glad I read this post. Thank you for sharing your frustration. I've learned two things from this: 1) test fit everything before powder and 2) have a frame shop validate everything is straight and true before spending too much time on a build-up. I was thinking about skipping these steps and now I'm calling a frame shop tomorrow.

Thanks!

[thefirebirdman]

Wow - I am so glad I read this post. Thank you for sharing your frustration. I've learned two things from this: 1) test fit everything before powder and 2) have a frame shop validate everything is straight and true before spending too much time on a build-up. I was thinking about skipping these steps and now I'm calling a frame shop tomorrow.

Thanks!

YW!! That's one of the reasons I wanted to post all the details. The sub-frame looked fine from a visual inspection and considering how old these cars are and the abuse they took over the years, this is probably fairly common. In retrospect, had I wanted to use the factory control arms with rubber bushings, it probably would've worked out fine because they can flex enough to make up for the mis-alignment but I'll tell ya, I'm glad I found out and had an opportunity to get a straight one back under the car.

[dipren443]

Ok guys, got a quote for $150 - $200 for the welding on the sub-frame. Does that sound about right??

Cdoggy, I see you over at PY and maybe TAC? I have a build thread going at TAC. Should have included it at PY as well. Here's the link:

http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=22686.0

I think that price is more than fair.

Nick