mustang 2 or McPherson strut

[ditonics]

I am building a heavily modified 66 mustang for track and street use. The rear suspension will be an uprated IRS from an 03 cobra mustang. To fit the new modular engine I will be removing the inner front fenders and shock towers which leave me with 2 possible options for the front suspension.

1: install a mustang 2 style front suspension from the likes of Heidts

2: install Mc Pherson syyle front struts on to the front space frame

My question is which is the better option. The Mustang 2 front suspension would be a much easier soloution to install but I have no experience with their handling and performance. I dont want to sacrifice the cars cornering ability to save a few weeks work on the build. As mentioned the car will be partly space framed so the front suspenion could be custon made to tie into this with either an upper and lower wish arm design or TCA/Mc pherson strut.

All advise and experiences welcome

Thanks

[Bryce]

Griggs will allow you to open up the engine compartment as well.

But MII is hot rod stuff. with a lot of mods you can get the correct camber gain and geometry. The struts are probably better right out of the box. A modified MII style would be best. But longer shocks and better mounting points are a must. But if you are making all this stuff just design your own suspension. Dont use a kit find a spindle and design around that. consider front vs rear steer and ride height.

[fordsbyjay]

Fatman makes a tubular front clip like you are mentioning. It uses a strut style suspension. Griggs racing makes a SLA setup and you can specify a x-member that will allow a modular motor. Both of these options are more expensive then you standard street rod MII deal. If you actually want to race the car Griggs is where I would go. Total Control has some good stuff but nothing that allow removal of the shock tower which you need.

griggs racing is proven (http://www.griggsracing.com/index.php?cPath=4332&osCsid=419155a3629dfb6e88cb3a5040569e50)

fatmans tubular front end (http://fatmanfab.com/catalogpage.php?page=36)

[JRouche]

Guess it depends on your budget for alot of the systems. A Griggs setup is gonna start at 6000 grand. And they Do know mustangs.

But back to yer Q. Strut or MII type suspension. I would go with the MII front. Many of the strut aftermarket systems you will see are a bandaid fix for cars that have really poor front ends and the guy doesnt want to change too much of the original front suspension. Enter Fatman. Or its just a straight line quarter mile car that doesnt need any handling on the road or track.

The MII type suspensions are used in ALOT of cars. More so than any other aftermarket suspensions Id be willing to say. Yes, they are marketed to the Kustom, Hotrod and show cars. But they have a huge amount of use under some pretty heavy cars. The durability is there. Its a proven setup for durability and strength. And with a lil amount of ingenuity they can be a strong performer for handling.

Id be willing to ask anyone for a positive example where it cant be tuned to the specs a builder needs. And Im sure any suspension has its limitations. Its a give and take world when you talk about suspension needs. There is not one suspension that covers ALL the issues.

But the MII suspension has so much going for it in terms of durability and modification possibilities I see it as a strong choice for many car builders. It gets a bad rep with many. For good reason. But when its set up correctly there isnt much to complain about. Unless you are looking for nirvana, then that chase is gonna be long and expensive.

Oh yeah.. Umm, I removed my inner fender wells and stock strut suspension. Its not a Ford, a Chevy. But back then they were all pretty much the same. And these days I have as much Ford in the car as Chevy. And a lil Honda, Pontiac and Cadillac. Oh! And some Chinese. Who woulda known the Chinese were gonna be building cars in America via the aftermarket boat trip using American hands to build the cars. LOL JR

[formula]

i wonder how the mII got such a bad reputation--now that you mention it, I know it's crap because i've been told it's crap over and over again.

If somebody has one and can get me the link lengths and mounting points, i can analyze it and get us a caster, camber, and toe curve throughout the suspension travel. I'm sure somebody's got similar data for, say, a 'vette, which we could compare against.

[Twentyover]

There was once a poster here, Alcino, who had an actual MII. Oddly, it had an MII suspension. He won one of the first handling shootouts at one of the glossies, PHR IIRC.

Think Pozzi did a suspension analysis for the car. If not, I think Performance Trends has the pivot points in a record file as shipped because of it's popularity, I'm considering a permutation to replace the struts on the front of my Capri

[JRouche]

i wonder how the mII got such a bad reputation--now that you mention it, I know it's crap because i've been told it's crap over and over again.

If somebody has one and can get me the link lengths and mounting points, i can analyze it and get us a caster, camber, and toe curve throughout the suspension travel. I'm sure somebody's got similar data for, say, a 'vette, which we could compare against.

Hahahaha.. No kidding, they are crap because why would there be so much of a stigma. Its gotta be true.

I dont have the numbers for you to plug into the computer for mounting points. But during my build I did do alot of number crunching. Real world numbers.

I have to say. A mustang II suspension ripped from a doaner car in the wrecking yard is not what most folks use. What is used is the mounting points, the dimensions, not the parts. Everything else is usually aftermarket. Thats the K member, control arms and steering.

I use SPC upper control arms. Modified TCI lower arms. An aftermarket K member that uses similar geometry as the stock K member, same mounting points.. And a steering rack that is well, stock with Baer tracker tie rod ends.

So during my install I checked the numbers all along the way. Checking for a decent static camber number and dynamic camber gain with suspension travel and body roll. I was fortunate to have shockwave springs in place so there wasnt any spring load to contend with.

With a "stock" upper control arm length and height I was surprised to see a decent camber gain curve. So with the flexibility of having the adjustable length control arms and the mounting point for the uppers still in the air for vertical placement (I was trying to determine the mounting for the inside of the arms, I needed to weld some new mounts) it was a pleasant surprise to see they were pretty close. And to be honest, I could not lower the mounts anymore. I would have liked to drop the mounts a 1/2". But the K member was in the way. I think the MII upper arms could use a lil lower mounting position. A half an inch would do it.

But anyway.. I placed the mount for the upper CA pretty close to stock.

Oh, on a side note. Adjustable upper control arms doesn't mean much. No such thing as something for nuthing when suspensions are concerned. That is an entire other post. But adjustable upper control arms arent meant to be adjustable. You cant just set them for what ever length without compromising another property of the geometry. Shims are still needed and should be used.

So.. I finally dialed in .5* of static camber at ride height. I get one degree (.95* actually) of camber gain for the first inch of compression and it trails of to about .88* for the next inch and still close at .85* for the next inch. And I mapped it all out for each 1/4" of compression and plotted the numbers. And the best thing was it was pretty consistent. No bumps in the numbers.

Oh and caster was set at 5*. Its a lil heavy for a wide tire front and a manual steered car. I may re-think the 5* of caster and dial it down abit after some street use. And if I do Ill adjust the control arms to accommodate the change.

Anyway... The MII geometry is not bad. Any issues with bump steer I will hammer out, thats the next looksee. Ill comment on that shortly.

Umm rack and pinion steering is nice.

Dunno... I dont really know why the MII type suspensions arent looked at for a proven system. Maybe because alot of the suspensions out there now, like say the camaro are really good suspensions and just need a lil tweaking to make them just right. Where a transplant to a MII doesnt make sense. And Ill agree, it makes no sense at all to put a MII suspension in a camaro. But for a car that has a crappy suspension (mine) the MII might be a decent option. JR

[Twentyover]

Wes-

Performance Trends dooes have the pickup points imbeded in a file.

One reason alot of people don't like the MII is short A-Arm length. This tends to impede negative caster gain in bump. & lateral scrub I recall Tyler saying that he was getting -0.9 degrees camber gain/inch bump in another old thread

Couple places to look for information

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16962
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17433

[JRouche]

Ok, Im still learning here. What is negative caster gain in bump? New one for me. I dont see the caster changing in bump. But it is friday night and I have had a few drinks :)

Ill agree, the UCAs are short. The lowers are not bad considering the width of the entire setup. Meaning the rack and pinion mounts. The lowers closely mimic the steering rod arms in travel. But yes, the uppers are a lil stubby. But with some creative alignment numbers, ditch the stock numbers, they dont work, you can get a pretty linear suspension travel. And I also have adjustable uppers so that helps a lil. But RC wandering is still an issue.

As far as scrub issues I dont know much about scrub radius, yes, still learning AGAIN. I see it as the point where the steering axis is in relation to the contact patch. Seems to me thats more of a wheel and tire issue than a suspension issue. Not sure. But if it is that then my srub is 0. I have eight inch wide tires (7" wheels) and the steering axis is at the center of the contact patch. Now if zero is bad then yes, I can see where scrub would be a problem. I cant get the contact patch in any further. Out yes, out as far as you want it :)

Its interesting reading some of the posts on the links you provided.

I may be on the wrong forum it seems. Im happy with a well handling car on the road. Thats where I spend my time. I dont track at all. My goal is to have a car that is in old school clothes from the sixties and have it handle like a newer car from the 2000s. Pro Touring to me doesn't mean setting up a car so it will win races at the track. It means setting up a car, usually an older car that had some nasty street handling characteristics to be more of a modern handling car that will provide the driver with a secure and confident feel on the street. Not overly concerned about a track handling car. But when the itch hits to try the track out he will be more than happy.

I guess Im not looking for the same thing from my car that many of the PT folks are. I do love ALL the great advice here though JR



One reason alot of people don't like the MII is short A-Arm length. This tends to impede negative caster gain in bump. & lateral scrub I recall Tyler saying that he was getting -0.9 degrees camber gain/inch bump in another old thread

Couple places to look for information

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16962
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17433

[Bad Bird]

The issue with the short arms is that the IC, and hence roll center migrate very rapidly in bump and rebound. This leads to a very inconsistence roll couple

[Twentyover]

My bad. Thinking camber, typed caster

[ditonics]

Damn I was not subscribed to my own question :(

Thanks for the feed back, the plan is not to use an actual MII suspension or even an aftermarket one as shipping it to the UK is just to expensive. Instead I am looking for a good basis to work out my own suspension. The rough idea at present is to use an upper and lower wish arm with a coil over mounted to the space frame, which will allow for the use of a longer shock and spring.

Can some one give some advise on the basic differences between front and rear mounted steering, it will be rack n pinion. Also the difference between front and rear mounting the anti-roll bar. The roll bar will be on rose jointed drop links.

[ditonics]

Also any advise on what software to use to do the suspension maths

[ditonics]

Wes-

Performance Trends dooes have the pickup points imbeded in a file.

One reason alot of people don't like the MII is short A-Arm length. This tends to impede negative caster gain in bump. & lateral scrub I recall Tyler saying that he was getting -0.9 degrees camber gain/inch bump in another old thread

Couple places to look for information

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16962
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17433


thanks for the links, I see I have a lot of reading to do now

[formula]

Also any advise on what software to use to do the suspension maths

I use matlab and simulink, if you have access to them. for more advanced models I develop the model in cad and then import to simulink. Really though that's just if i want it to be pretty, you can do all of the analysis itself in matlab, but it's all command-line, or in simulink (yes i know simulink supports command line work as well but hell sometimes i just want to see a dang picture instead of just staring at x million lines of code and imagining it as a suspension).

Luckily my licenses to these are all supplied through my auto-engineering grad program so for you it might be tough to get access to *legal* licenses for these...hint hint hint hint hint.

[Bryce]

performance trends

matlab

CATIA

[ibuildm]

Take a look at the TCI Coilover IFS for your Mustang. It is not a Mustang II type IFS. The geometry is pretty much the same as the IFS subframe that TCI has under their 68 Camaro that has been pretty much killing everybody in the autocross events. They have motor mount kits for the Windsor, 4.6/5.3L, FE and 429/460 engines. Here is a link to their website that has a good picture of it: http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/mustangf&r_intro.cfm
Here is a link to the installation manual too: http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/64-70_Ford_Mustang_Front_End_Ver3_ER.pdf
Tim

[Bryce]

Its still a MII spindle tho, right?

[ditonics]

Its still a MII spindle tho, right?


no its a custom spindle made by TCI

What spindle are you running on the Falcon?

[Bryce]

I know its made by TCI but I thought they used the same MII design. Ball joints and spind and steering arm in the same place as a stock MII.


Now the wilwood MII style spindle may be a better starting point. I have not spent much time researching it.

My falcon has stock V8 spindles that the rest of the suspension was designed around.

[ditonics]

I know its made by TCI but I thought they used the same MII design. Ball joints and spind and steering arm in the same place as a stock MII.


Now the wilwood MII style spindle may be a better starting point. I have not spent much time researching it.

My falcon has stock V8 spindles that the rest of the suspension was designed around.


You might be right, TCI do state that it is a custom design spindle.

I will be running 18 x ?? size wheels in the front so I was hoping to use a bigger spindle than the standard MII with longer wish arms. I will go and check out the wilwood one. I was toying with the idea of custom CNC ones as I know the guys that own my local machine shop quite well and they are both into classic cars. But I think that is a step too far for me. The wish arms I will make as I am happy I can do that correctly.

I have found a few interesting aftermarket spindles so far but I am yet to do a proper search and I will do some searching on here too. If you know any good makes then feel free to pass on the names of them. :)

[Bryce]

check out the circle track spindles. They can custom make them to certain specs. KPI and height as well as spindle snout height.

[ditonics]

check out the circle track spindles. They can custom make them to certain specs. KPI and height as well as spindle snout height.

I just looked the the Wilwood one, it still uses the MII geomotery. Nice piece of kit tho if I decide to go that route.

[ditonics]

check out the circle track spindles. They can custom make them to certain specs. KPI and height as well as spindle snout height.

Do you have a web address pls. thanks

[Bryce]

http://kenyonracing.com/custom.asp

http://www.colemanracing.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?page=10&sppp=10

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum_new/archive/index.php/t-26703.html


https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1591182

[Wesley J]

I'm currently building the FatMan Strut kit. Follow it in my signature.