Steering Choices?!

[ZoomieFoosh]

Alright, I've been kind of digging around trying to find peoples' opinions of the different steering options. I need to get a new gear box since the one I have decided to break. The questions is, should I get the DSE 600 or the Unisteer one. I'm not really worried about the price difference, but which one would work the best in handeling and reducing bump steer? I have seen a lot of guys are interested in the unisteer but havent heard much about the 600. Can anyone give me a little help?!

[baz67]

No matter what the adds say, a R/P will not zero bumpsteer on a first gen. Is this for a first gen?

The DSE box is a good choice. It will give you a R/P feel and a quicker ratio. I beleive it is 12:1. It is 6 lbs lighter than the other power boxes for a first gen. It is heavier then the R/P though.

[steeryourite]

Well I know I am biased, but our rack has no more bump steer that any steering box on the market. We tested 3 different vehicals using our kit, and had .030" of toe out fuly compressed and .025" fully rebounded. This was done with a real bump steer gauge. And to give you and idea how little that is(roughly the thickness of a dime) we did the same test on a 2004 Vette and had very similar numbers. I know alot of you guys like to try and pick things apart, but when it comes to bump steer all cars have some. True some race cars dont, but I would wager to say that the vast majority if not all of factory build cars do.
As far as handling, Ill put our product up against any box. And believe me I sell the 600 box. There is a reason that vertualy all auto manufacturers use rack and pinions exclusively. What new car is build with a steering box anymore? Not many. Its because a rack and pinion is more possitive mechanical device. Recerculating ball gears(steering boxes) have more moving parts, and more friction. Plus the linear movent of a rack and pinion requires less effort than the rotory movement of a nut and sector. I welcome any of the 15 members who participated in the group buy to tell their experience. We have a satisfaction guarantee, no questions asked.
Dave

[Steve Chryssos]

"Zero Bump" has become a misguided buzzword. Just like 1g (One Gee). Folks are throwing around these terms lately as though they are easily attainable and carved in stone. Thirty thou over full travel is more than acceptable. What is the OE measurement?

I, for one, like the feel and effort of my rack. Why just five minutes ago, I was devouring 25mph exit ramps at 70mph with a Starbucks in my right hand and my heart racing (sharing a cloverleaf with a Yammy who obviously had no particular place to be at the moment) How much bumpsteer do I have? I dunno. I can't remember. I lost the little sticky note that my chassis builder gave me.

I've watched this "anti-rack conversion" bandwagon leave the station many times over the years. If the rack conversion simply IMPROVES steering input and feedback as compared to stock, let's not be so quick to dismiss the product.

[Steve1968LS2]

HEY!! Im working on a g-Science story on this very topic..

I will be discussing the pros and cons of recirculating ball and R&P steering choices.. I will also be talking to various suppliers..

I R&P.. I also like some traditional boxes.. especially the pinion unit for DSE. At some point it becomes a cost vs gain game. Like is a three-link better than a modified rear leaf suspension.

Oh, nothing wrong with a little bumpsteer.. it is when you have too much that it gets dicey.. :)

Maybe I will quote some of ya in my story ;)

[Steve1968LS2]

No matter what the adds say, a R/P will not zero bumpsteer on a first gen. Is this for a first gen?

The DSE box is a good choice. It will give you a R/P feel and a quicker ratio. I beleive it is 12:1. It is 6 lbs lighter than the other power boxes for a first gen. It is heavier then the R/P though.

I really loved my DSE 600 box.. felt responsive and very much like a R&P unit.. and it is 6lbs lighter.. i weighed it

I see these reasons for a R&P..

1. lighter weight
2. easier to package headers
3. slightly better feel over a 600 box

Sometimes the R&P conversion is a bit tricky since it forces a relocation of the front swaybar (at least with the BRP deal) and sometimes frame modification.

[Steve1968LS2]

There is a reason that vertualy all auto manufacturers use rack and pinions exclusively. What new car is build with a steering box anymore? Not many.
Dave

That's not always the best argument.. sometimes mfgs make the change because it it cheaper or makes vehicle packagine easiers.. not always because it is the better performance choice. Also, there is a difference in a car being designed around R&P and adding it to an older car.

I think some trucks are the only vehicles to still use recirculating ball gearboxes..

What company are you with Dave?

[vanzuuk1]

maybe I missed it but how do they compare on price? Is the rack/pinion slightly better but much more costly?

[Steve1968LS2]

maybe I missed it but how do they compare on price? Is the rack/pinion slightly better but much more costly?

Sorta depends.. a Saginaw 600 gearbox (the best out there) will cost you $525 and you can use all the rest of your parts (you would need a couple fittings and a new coupler).

A good rack and pinion from someone like Unisteer will run you $800 complete and again you will need a few fittings.

A Saginaw 800 close ratio box with modified efforts will run you a bit more than $300..

So yes, a rack and pinion is "better" but it does cost more and takes a bit more work to install.

[chicane67]

The best box is $525 ?? Naw, dont think so. How about under $400. If you want a real box, get one built by a guy who has built them for 35+ years and whom is arguably the best in the business. Obviously, if you pick one up from "a dealer" for $525, you are only going to get what comes off the shelf...... no more and no less. No interaction with the guy who builds them (which it affords him to build it to your liking) and you can have it custominzed to your liking without extra expense. Most of the time either way you go, its a good value no matter what.

As for bumpsteer, every chassis has some. I dont care what you bring to this subject, any chassis you name will have some bumpsteer in it. First of all, bumpsteer is not a bad thing........ within reason. Some toe out, upon or reaching bump in travel is acceptable. In reality, anyting under 0.100" is negligible on a street driven chassis, on the street. Do you really wanna split hairs, why dont you throw in scrub on top of bump, and lets get down to brass tacks. Which one has a larger effect ?? Which one is better to have less of ??

Steve NAILED the reason why mfgs have mooved toward R&P's in most late model chassis'. It has to do with packaging more than anything else...... next would be weight and last would be its cost.

Packaging is my biggest b*tch, if you are not looking to modify everything around it. If you are throwing in a tube type star-bar and you have the room to properly get the Borg-joint to rack's input spline fitment and angle, then go right ahead. It would be bennificial. But the added time (which is money) and necessary modifications does make it more costly. If you could package it, without the domino effect of other things that have to be made to work with it, and you might actually get somewhere. But so far, I havent run into any "kit" that can accomplish just that, without modifing the sub or everything around it. Header fitment isnt even a problem and if to you it is, suck it up and get some real tubes for the car. You want something done right ?? Well, that costs moola........ get used to it. But how much do you have to modify..... ??...... how much do you (the end user) have to spend ??

Let me say this. Either way you go, it really comes down to how it is installed and possibly, who it is that installs it. Both systems work. Period. Both systems have Pros and Cons. The real question is, what do you want to do with your money ?? If you get that old guy to build your box and hand fit the worm drive balls in it to around 0.0009 to 0.001"........ and it fits everything around it without modification -OR- you find a kit that actually does what it says its supposed to do and it is worth the added time and effort to add it to your chassis........ THEN DO IT.

I have installed both (as far back as the pony racks in the late 80's) and driven both. I like my pinion unit, but that's just my opinion. I say if you can pull it off, find someone that has a rack in the same chassis that you are going to build and then one with a real box in it and make your mind up from there.

Its just your money, how do you want to spend it ??

[Steve1968LS2]

The best box is $525 ?? Naw, dont think so. How about under $400. If you want a real box, get one built by a guy who has built them for 35+ years and whom is arguably the best in the business. Obviously, if you pick one up from "a dealer" for $525, you are only going to get what comes off the shelf......

Its just your money, how do you want to spend it ??

Well, I am not privy to every hot deal out there.. as for off the shelf the saginaw 600 is a great box and has many advantages over the 800 box. You might even be able to get a 600 box cheaper but I just quoted DSE's price because it was what I know..

I did write your guys name down for future reference though :)

[chicane67]

That is why we are all here. To share and save the moola from having to do something over twice !! LOL

[Steve Chryssos]

The best box is $525 ?? Naw, dont think so. How about under $400. If you want a real box, get one built by a guy who has built them for 35+ years and whom is arguably the best in the business. .............If you get that old guy to build your box and hand fit the worm drive balls........

Hey Jackass,
You forgot to give us the name and phone number of the old guy who will will build your box and play with worm's balls for $400

[Steve Chryssos]

As for scrub:
Given street car toe (in) settings under street conditions, scrub is good. Zero Scrub is another annoying P-T.com buzzword.

Scrub this. :moon:

[Steve1968LS2]

As for scrub:
Given street car toe (in) settings under street conditions, scrub is good. Zero Scrub is another annoying P-T.com buzzword.

Scrub this. :moon:

Anyone that read the June PHR knows that zero scrub is bad.. We should make a list of buzzwords..

1 g
zero scrub
zero bump steer

More?

[wally8]

Scrub or Scrub Radius? Don't confuse the two, they're entirely different.


Wally

[Steve1968LS2]

Scrub or Scrub Radius? Don't confuse the two, they're entirely different.

Wally

I was talking scrub radius.. on review I think Steveo was talking scrub..

Clear as mud :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Scrub or Scrub Radius? Don't confuse the two, they're entirely different.

Wally

I was talking scrub radius.. on review I think Steveo was talking scrub..

Clear as mud :)

[steeryourite]

Steve,
I am the guy behind Unisteer Performance. If you want to know more about us check out our web site and our Maval gear site. You are right trucks commonly use steering boxes, but even trucks are now using rack and pinions (Toyota, Dodge, Ford). I will give you that OEs build the vehical around the gear, but I can tell you that we have a very tight relationship with Delphi (we supply them, they supply us)and even their engineers agree rack and pinions are a superior method of steering. The 600 box isnt new technologie in fact its basicly the same design as the origianal GM box with a different ratio. The 600 is a result of NASCAR running out of good cores of the 800 box. Further more the rack and pinion does eliminate the drag link system, thus taking the wearable idler, and pitman arm out of the picture. I just dont see what advantage the box has on the rack and pinion other that its more original looking. Cost is about the same, the box weighs alot more, has less road feel , and is subject to more maintenance.

[sharp67]

So can we get a little more info on the old guy that hand builds the steering boxes. I'd like to get a hold of him and find out what he can do for me and how much? Thanks Jay.

[Steve1968LS2]

Scrub or Scrub Radius? Don't confuse the two, they're entirely different.

Wally

I was talking scrub radius.. on review I think Steveo was talking scrub..

Clear as mud :)

[MarkM66]

I believe Tom is refering to this guy:

Lee Manufacturing Co.
11661 Pendleton St.
Sun Valley, CA 91352
818/768-0371

[wally8]

Steve and Streetfytr68,

I should have added that I knew what each of you meant.

My comment was more to keep the newbies from getting confused should they be trying to learn the terminology, particularly for posterity's sake in future searches.

Wally

[6'9"Witha69]

To answer the question about a kit with everything answered try Steeroids. They have a complete kit. About $995 from Speeddirect.com. The only issue is header selection (clearance of the intermediate shaft b/w the steering column & Rack).

[zuess4u]

To answer the question about a kit with everything answered try Steeroids. They have a complete kit. About $995 from Speeddirect.com. The only issue is header selection (clearance of the intermediate shaft b/w the steering column & Rack).

Have heard nothing good about Steeriods, Iwould speak with some other members who have purchased the Unisteer R&P system. And or also speak with members who have ran Steeriods, I bet not too many.
One of the key issues that Unisteer has addressed is the steering arm length. Steeriods has you using the stock one, which will ends up making the steerin worse then stock. But you can research and find out more info.

[Steve1968LS2]

To answer the question about a kit with everything answered try Steeroids. They have a complete kit. About $995 from Speeddirect.com. The only issue is header selection (clearance of the intermediate shaft b/w the steering column & Rack).

I do want to learn more about Steeroids.. I was going to go this route many moons ago but was talked out of because of bump steer issues. Did these exist and if so were they worked out?

You know how internet rumors are ;)

[USAZR1]

So can we get a little more info on the old guy that hand builds the steering boxes. I'd like to get a hold of him and find out what he can do for me and how much? Thanks Jay.

Ditto. I'd like to know,too.

[TitoJones]

Ditto. I'd like to know,too.

Mark was correct, a few post up. Lee engineering is the place.
I think Tom is working too many hours, he keeps leaving out key info.

I wouldn't touch a steeriods unit if your goal is for a pro-touring car. Steeroids reminds me of the street rod stuff you see more for bling than for improvements. There are much better ways to spend $950 bones.

Tyler

[nancejd]

I haven't recieved my Unisteer setup yet, but then again, I ordered it on the last possible day of the GP. I did check out Anthony's setup though, and I think it lloks pretty nice. The rack looks to me (I'm no expert), like it sits in roughly the same place that the linkage would on a stock setup, and with the addition of the revised steering arms, should do nicely for me. Just the improved feel of the rack will be a bonus to me, not to mention less front end weight. Besides, once you include replacing the remainder of the steering parts on a first gen, the total cost is roughly the same. I'd definately be interested to hear the review of someone who's car was on the road before the swap, and after the swap, and what their impression was.

[chicane67]

As for scrub:
Given street car toe (in) settings under street conditions, scrub is good. Zero Scrub is another annoying P-T.com buzzword.

Scrub this. :moon:

I think about 0.700" scrub and a toe out alignment on a first gen would be the answer.


To answer the question about a kit with everything answered try Steeroids.

Now there is a can of worms not worth opening (again). Unfortunately, "Steeroids" doesnt really have a market in this theater, until they fix numerous geometrical "issues". If you all would like an objective opinion about this product, ole' Markypoo (Mean69) could give you some insight on this specific product, while on the subject.


I think Tom is working too many hours, he keeps leaving out key info.

Come'on now, if I told you guys everything, you will never learn how to research things on your own....... nor would I get the humor that this provides me. But yes, many hours and not enough chassis time. That can be a real problem when your Jonesing for your new 14.5" AP brakes and the ability to call Fikse when I get done with the required measurements......... but, work just keeps getting in my way.

If I could actually get my hands on a rack unit for awhile, and run it through the numbers, I might just change my opinion. Considering that we do have an engineering development chassis that is subject for lots-o press articles here within the next 6 to 12 months...... we might just have to work something out. :naughty:

[Steve Chryssos]

Now we're talkin.

Okay. So the Steeroids thing has left a bad impression on rack conversions. Now there are other brands available such as Unisteer and (I think) Flaming River--maybe others. The burden of proof rests on these manufacturers shoulders.

Steeroids Bad - Unisteer Good?

I would love to see someone put various parts on a subframe, hang measuring tools off the end, gather data, snap some pictures and publish the results in a nationally distributed magazine. Objectivity will always come into question if the tests are performed by one of the existing suspension parts manufacturers. But if the tests are performed by ATS with stock spindles in addition to their product (or instead of) the published data should be clean.

It's kinda embarrassing that we've come this far without such information. But data is a double edged sword. The reader has to understand that there is no such thing as perfect geometry. As long as parts are bolted to that stock subframe (and within so many other packaging constraints), all we are looking for are improvements over stock.

To that end, I hope that Unisteer will come out smelling like a rose.

[enthusiast]

I heard ratio on the Unisteer rack is very slow. What exactly is the steering ratio on the Unisteer rack? Can the Unisteer rep post something?
Thanks

[Q ship]

I don't think you can directly compare ratios between racks and gearboxes-tho I've got no tech to back that up.

[steeryourite]

The ratio is not slow at all. We use the same gears that are in a Vette. Our rack has the exzct same travel as the factory box, with 2.5 turns lock to lock. I think that is slightly faster than the 12.7 to 1 box.
Dave

[68SSConvt]

I've tried several boxes over the years, the stock unit, a late model z28 unit, then a AGR version of the stock box with a new AGR pump to go with it. I was never really happy with the feel. I recently sold the AGR and bought a DSE 600. Now I'm happy. The feel is great.

I have no experience with the R&P, but have always wanted to go that route, but there weren't any viable options. Now that there are options, I would have been interested - if I hadn't already got the DSE600. Now that I have this box, I think I'm done changing for quite a while.

Note that the DSE box won't change the bump steer, it'll have the same geometry as the stock box. But there are ways of addressing the bump steer.

The DSE box seemed pricey for just a non R&P unit, but I'm not dissappointed.

Ray

[Zyman]

I just ordered a replacement unit from Lee Manufacturing for my 1970 Firebird Formula 12:1 ratio for $440 plus shipping.