twin turbos with or withour intercooler

[mrobertweiss]

I am in need of any advice regarding the use of either cold air induction or intercooling of twin turbos in a 53 studebaker, with a 299 CI stude engine.Compression for this build comes in at just about 8:0. The engine is essentially a NOS engine, NOS full-flow block and NOS heads, blueprinted, R3 valves, ARP bolts, R2+ cam, and all this is (for those of you unfamiliar with studebaker), really the most rugged bottom line stuff available for this engine. I have a mass-flo fuel injection setup ready for this project as well. 400 HP for this street car was the goal, and using 10 pounds boost.
Packaging the plumbing and piping has , as expected, become a bit of a headache. Because of this, and particularly the steering box location and low hood clearance, the turbos are mounted at about midengine, for exhausting to the rear on the right, forward and under the engine on the left.( Hopefully I can figure out how to post a picture with this query).
The mass air meter is in a tube, that configured with the airbox/carb hat, requires as straight a flow pattern as possible. This creates further packaging issues for the compressor outputs.
Originally, I was going to try and suck cold air, using a Spectre in-tube filter setup, from under the fender wells, over the tires, and use no intercooler. This will be a hassle, it now appears. I could easily put cone filters on the compressor intakes and fit that under the hood with my current configuration, and run the intakes to an intercooler, put the intercooler output over the top of the radiator, and straight into the mass air meter tube and carb hat/throttle body. Overall, a much cleaner appaearnce.

I was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable than me (probably most of you)had any suggestions. I've read the usual books, Corky Bell, and a few others. Thanks- m weisshttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSCF1009-1.jpg

[preston]

Twin turbo studebaker with vintage engine. Makes perfect sense to me !

As I understand ity ou are are basically asking whether you are better off running cold air intake without an intercooler, or hot air intake with an intercooler. Given those choices, at 10 psi, I would pick intercooler for sure.

I don't think it would be that hard to route some air intake to someplace cooler than the engine bay though.

I've often thought a good combo would be 5-7 psi with no intercooler and some meth, but only with a serious engine that's already making power. With that old engine, you probably need more boost to match your power goals. I wish I had a picture of my latest 10 lbs of crap in a 5 lb bag, it might inspire you to figure out a solution to both problems.

[TitoJones]

I wish I had a picture of my latest 10 lbs of crap in a 5 lb bag, it might inspire you to figure out a solution to both problems.

Understatement of the year right there. Here is Preston's 67 Mustang.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/fronttrayJPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/EngineBayFromAbove-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/Turbo-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/FrontDuct1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/Front1small-1.jpg

Basically what Preston was hinting at is if there is air space anywhere in the vehicle, you can mount/stuff something in it. Good luck to you sir.

Tyler

[mrobertweiss]

Thanks, I guess. Studebakers used forced induction in the 50's on factory models, for a variety of reasons, and some of the more recent iterations of the Studebaker engines do well at Bonneville, and Muncie. Also, there are alot of 53 coupes around with LS1 engine transplants. The idea here was to do something a little different. I'm not suggesting the project isn't worthy of some ridicule, but I'm not looking for a car that could have been in the movie "Transformers", either.- thanks, m weiss.

[94SNGLTURBO]

use a intercooler..

[Procharmo]

Understatement of the year right there. Here is Preston's 67 Mustang.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/fronttrayJPG-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/EngineBayFromAbove-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/Turbo-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/FrontDuct1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/Front1small-1.jpg

Basically what Preston was hinting at is if there is air space anywhere in the vehicle, you can mount/stuff something in it. Good luck to you sir.

Tyler

Well worth posting. The engineering is deep and intense, infact it's off the hook........ I bet if he asked whether he should make any one of those mods on a forum he would be told no.....Now let me go over those pics for ideas......

[Procharmo]

I am in need of any advice regarding the use of either cold air induction or intercooling of twin turbos in a 53 studebaker, with a 299 CI stude engine.Compression for this build comes in at just about 8:0. The engine is essentially a NOS engine, NOS full-flow block and NOS heads, blueprinted, R3 valves, ARP bolts, R2+ cam, and all this is (for those of you unfamiliar with studebaker), really the most rugged bottom line stuff available for this engine. I have a mass-flo fuel injection setup ready for this project as well. 400 HP for this street car was the goal, and using 10 pounds boost.
Packaging the plumbing and piping has , as expected, become a bit of a headache. Because of this, and particularly the steering box location and low hood clearance, the turbos are mounted at about midengine, for exhausting to the rear on the right, forward and under the engine on the left.( Hopefully I can figure out how to post a picture with this query).
The mass air meter is in a tube, that configured with the airbox/carb hat, requires as straight a flow pattern as possible. This creates further packaging issues for the compressor outputs.
Originally, I was going to try and suck cold air, using a Spectre in-tube filter setup, from under the fender wells, over the tires, and use no intercooler. This will be a hassle, it now appears. I could easily put cone filters on the compressor intakes and fit that under the hood with my current configuration, and run the intakes to an intercooler, put the intercooler output over the top of the radiator, and straight into the mass air meter tube and carb hat/throttle body. Overall, a much cleaner appaearnce.

I was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable than me (probably most of you)had any suggestions. I've read the usual books, Corky Bell, and a few others. Thanks- m weisshttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSCF1009-1.jpg
Call Rodney at AIS and get a custom meth/water injection set up. I reckon you'll end up with a quad injector system. One injector pre impeller for each turbo and two before the carb..Should shed 180 degs or more.....Keep the air intakes away from the tyres. The dirt will do more harm than the hot air, ask me I know, I used to run a side slinger Procharger!!!!!

By the way, you have a beautiful car.

[mrobertweiss]

Procharmo: thanks for the input- I have looked into water injection. Do you think the meth injection would overcome using hot in-engine -compartment air for the intakes? Using an IC is not difficult in this package, and actually helps gain a straight shot to the mass air meter in front of the carb hat/throttle body in this setup. But routing the 3 inch intake piping for the air intakes, to an outside source of fresh air is the real plumbing problem here. There's plenty of room for adequate cone filters right off the compressors, and it would make life easier. thanks- m weiss

[Procharmo]

I hear your concerns. Cold air is best. Your car is a classic and may be spoilt buy a pair of naca scoops in the hood!!!

Your not after the last 10th of horsepower possible.

So you could use an I/C and a little meth/water injection. Tune it, drive it and take it from there. We can't always plan for every scenario ahead of time..
Good Luck..

[mrobertweiss]

Thank you. Hood scoops out of the question. I was thinking that I'd try it with the under-hood air, and see how it worked out. You are correct that the last bit of Hp isn't the goal. 400 HP , or even close to that,on this car is actually a lot of power, even with all the upgrades and modernization I've done, and again, it's not a late model camaro. Thanks- m weiss

[MrForce]

Use an intercooler. A cold air intake only cools the air going into the turbo. The intercooler cools the hot, compressed air coming out of the turbos and this is what you need. Is your the mass-flo set up configured to retard the timing under boost?

[mrobertweiss]

thanksMrForce.
I understand that the cold air intake is pre-compressed air. However, I just was curious how critical it would be. In other words, e.g., if the under hood air is 130 degrees, and ambient air is 85F, then you have a 45 degree head start on cooling your final, boosted volume, that makes its way into the throttle body, with cold air induction. If the Intercooler is efficient, and going to drop 130 degree air to 105 degree air, and I have two sharp 90 degree bends on the air intake trying to get cold air to the compressors, then I could conceivably be better off with just filters on the intakes, and eat 130 degree air under the hood. To get cold air into the compressors , thus, will require some significant flow restrictions. Everything is indeed a trade-off.
So the question is, is it a good tradeoff to use underhood air, no restriction to intake, and then hope intercooling will be sufficent to lower the temp substantially? Like Procharmo indicated, I don't need every last HP squeezed out of this thing....I was thinking of going with underhood air, then evaluating things after the build is done. I could add cold air tubes afterwards, although it'll be a lot harder to do.

The mass flo program is set up to handle the boost, allegedly; we will see. I have to get a fairly long straight shot to the meter, without Ys or turbulence for accurate function, another reason an intercooler would help me. The compressor outputs could join in the IC, and a single centrally located IC output would go to the carb hat. Thanks for your comments- mrw

[DeltaT]

An intercooler is the cake. Meth or water injection is the frosting. Make sure you do the cake first.

It will give you a lot of headroom when you decide to turn up the boost. And you will!

Your build looks good, but wouldn't you have an easier plumbing job if you turn that rightside turbo the other direction? I know it's not as clean on the compressor side, but the exhaust routing I would think makes up for it. And don't forget you can clock the compressor housing so it points almost anywhere around the compass.

Jim

[mrobertweiss]

Thanks for the input DeltaT.You probably mean the left turbo, left side of car. That turbo can't exhaust out the rear because I used reversed upturned stock manifolds, and there's no room due to the steering box. Would've been problematic even with headers. So I had to face it forward. Only a rack & pinion would've helped, but there are alot of problems changing the stude steering geometry, to not make that a good option.

The integral wastegates do kind of limit the clocking, you have only a few options , rotating the two parts with respect to each other. The CHRA also has to alllow oil drainage too, of course, but that wasn't the problem.Clocking wasn't really the problem, I am able to get the compressor outputs above the valve covers, it was either the exhaust routing, on the left, or the alternator on the right . Always something.
I think I'll be going with under -hood air and IC, looking at the performance, and then to methanol if necessary ; that will be what I'll have to do. I just can't get intakes to the front of the car and out, with all that other crap in there.....Thanks- manny

[mrobertweiss]

I'm about a month from startup. I appreciate the forum's prior input. I have to finish checking all the wiring, and fuel lines, and fabricate a proper fan shroud, yet. A number of things need to be tidied up a bit. The intercooler was a Bell, it took them awhile to get it done, but it is very well constructed. I am not happy about the underhood air intake, but it really seemed difficult to get cold air without cutting a hood scoop, which will spoil the lines of the car, as far as I am concerned. I have decided to try a late model boost actuated smog pump to help evacuate crankcase gases , some of the other turbocharged studes do have blowby issues. This may be overkill, I will see. Hopefully 'Preston' will not see this thread.....it really took alot of work to get all the plumbing fitment .https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/DSCF1343-1.jpg

[68Formula]

Another option, just to throw it out there, is E85. Of course this depends on accessibility and how you plan to drive the car (long trips would probably be difficult since it's not always easily obtained).

Not only does E85 have a higher octane rating, but they run cooler as well. Once you get the fuel curve setup, you can really turn up the boost!

[Sheriff]

Cool project

[Wildcardfox]

Looks good... Intercooler was the way to go as your inlet temps without would be around 250 F.

[mrobertweiss]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I have it running now, but have issues with the EFI (mass flo). I believe the pro tube is too close to the carb hat ( extreme velocity) causing cold start and idling problems. I am in the process of moving that MAF distally, but do need to keep it a reasonable distance from the 90 elbow coming from the IC , over the radiator.. I am curious as to anyone that has information about minima that the MAF can be to the throttle body- m. weiss

[mrobertweiss]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif[/IMG]

[H2Ogbodies]

I can't believe those v-belts are gonna last...lol Lots of thought clearly went into your build-I like it!

[DeltaT]

Everything looks great! Make sure you pack a big-a$$ shoehorn in your travel toolbox :)

Jim

[badbu68]

I would have just ran e85 due to it's ability to cool the intake charge as it turns from a liquid to a vapor through a blow through carb.

[mrobertweiss]

I had the chip retuned for the elbow in the charge air tube, and moved the BOV to the hot side, requiring one on each input. I'm sorry I got the HKS BOV units, the C-clip is an unecessary nuisance to apply and remove. The motor starts and idles nicely now, and just had the distal exhaust and mufflers welded and snugged up. Used side exhausts in front of the rear tires to minimize the hassle of getting 3 inch tubes out over the rear end and such. It's rather quiet. I have not tested driveability yet due to inclement weather, and some pesky Evans coolant tiny seeps. I think I will have to use Bars leak to stop the final one. At hot idle, my EGTs are 980-1020, the AFRs sit at about 14.0 - 15 +/- , and at ambient temps of 50-60 degrees F, the intercooler drops the compressor output temps from about 110 to ambient, so it seems to be functioning insofar as that goes. The A9L EEC IV that this system uses does not permit data logging, a real shame, and a Moates quarterhorse chip is apparently necessary to do that. Comments from anyone who has experience with that , would be welcomed. I've read alot about it, I am just apprehensive about it, and obviously need to run and push the car a bit first. Right now the EEC has just seen idling and some minimal throttling, so it really hasn't had an opportunity to learn anything. Thanks- m weiss https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif[/IMG]