NewB to LS engines, I"m picking up a LS7, Advise?

[Cdog]

I've built several small block engines and a stoker 496 from an old 427 BB for the Schiada V drive boat I use to have. But I've never opened up a LS series SBC.

The LS7 engine I'm buying has less than 10k miles on the engine. I'd like to swap out the pistons. From what I've read they are the weak link in the rotating assembly. What else should I consider while I have it torn down?

Cam choice is dependent on weight, power band and gearing. I'm going to be running a TKO 600 in a 67 Camaro. My plan is to run some of these auto cross events and track days. Streetability is a secondary concern. Brakes will be manual or hydro boost. Rear suspension is Lateral dynamics and front end will be AM C6.

I'd like to have close to 600 HP at the rear wheels. Any recommendations? Who do you recommend from LA to Phoenix for machine work on these LS engines? I've had good luck with Larry Peto in Tucson with my BBC marine stuff.

What do I need to know? I'd like to stick to a meat and potatoes combination.

Thanks in advance!

Here she is.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/IMG_5412-1.jpg

[BA.]

Congrats man!

There is a history of the rocker arm needle bearing caps failing, but I think that is mostly late 2007-early 2008 motors. Either way, best be safe to have them re-done by Harland Sharp or buy new ones from them.
Good call on the piston replacement as even Katech suggests that. (do the rod bolts too)
From what I've read, it's also a wise investment to replace the exhaust valves with a stainless valve. Some stockers have broken I guess. (sodium filled)
With your cam selection, be sure to get titanium retainers and better springs and that should be all the upgrades you need.

To reach the 600rwhp number, from what I have seen, you really need a good cam, and the big 102mm intake/TB, and ported heads. (or should I say, re-CNC'd) You might even tickle 580-590 with a ported stock intake.
Personally, I went with Richard at WCCH for porting but there are a few good places out there. There's a thread I created on this topic not too long ago. (this forum)

I mostly see 1 7/8" headers in use, but Katech has recommended a 1 3/4" with their smallish Torquer cam IF you want an abundance of low end torque over top-end power.

[Cdog]

Who is WCCH? It seems there are a lack of aftermarket cams. Kateck and GM performance. I have the factory wire harness that I plan to use. Do I buy a factory ECU or an aftermarket. Fast ect.?

Pistons
Rod bolts
Cam
Valve train
Rockers
Head porting
Tune

There's the list so far..

[70 Chevelle]

WCCH is West Coast Cylinder Heads

[BA.]

Yes indeedy. same shop is at www.proheads.com They've had good reports over at LS1tech and Corvetteforum.com, both sites worth spending a lot of time at.

There are probably more than a dozen cams out there man, here's a short list I've gathered and some specs......but I'm sure it's not 100% complete.

BTW - you're $$$ ahead by having that wiring harness and ECU, wish I had that. You can have a shop tune your motor using that ECU and the shops software package like EFI Live or HP Tuners or something similar.

[ss dave]

I can't recommend the above forums enough.
When I researched my LS7 those were the sites with more info than you could read, do searches for specifics.
You can get to the 600whp with the right combos and the right dyno.
Piston choices would be Wiseco, Mahle, Diamond.
Higher CR
Port your heads and strengthen the valve assembly for a big cam.
There is a ZO6 with the GMIII cam making 573hp on the LS1 site.
WCCH is an excellent choice.
Fast intake for sure, TB size is controversial.
Larger injectors
Fuel pump upgrade
1 7/8" headers
Stock crank is ok.
Then a tune and a liberal dyno guy to push numbers.
Manual tranny.
Bam! 600

[Cdog]

Here she is. I picked it up today and got it on the stand.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/IMG_5412-1.jpg

[Gandalf]

Congrats on the new direction cdog! Good advice on those two forums - read as much as you can. The good news is you have a solid foundation with a complete engine. That should save having to buy any more bits and pieces than you are already going to have to.

Two pieces of advice up front:

1 - Figure the realistic cost of everything else you will have to do just to get the engine in there and running. As others have said - don't be surprised if you end up a good ways into the cost of the engine again to get there. Be realistic about it. Complete fuel system (including the tank/pump, lines etc, cooling system, a harness if not reusing stock or modifications if reusing stock, fbw throttle or cable and matching TB?, oil system (see below), headers and engine mounts that fit YOUR setup, custom tune if using stock ECU, custom intake tube and MAF to feed the TB, upgraded clutch/pp/fw if you upgrade the engine, O2 sensors and don't forget all those fancy fittings you will want to use - they add-up. Figure what accessory drive you are going to run and that will work for YOUR setup. And then there's the optional fasteners, injectors, rails, balancer etc.

THEN decide if you still want to do the other work to the engine now or later.

2 - Back to that oil system. Decide on a wet or dry sump setup now, before you go pulling it apart. It's cruicial. There is no performance advantage either way (depending on who you talk to on the day). The sump pan itself, the lines to the tank and the tank itself (note you will need an aftermarket or custom to fit the first gen as others have done) plus the mounting itself - decide where and how. Oh, and you'll want a catch-can as well. In hind sight, considering my goals for the car, I'd have skipped the dry sump and gone wet - having Charlie use a std oil pump and change pans (couple other considerations). But it is where it is and it will be good insurance for the occasional autox event.

PM me and we can talk about the AM sub - that's what mine is. The LS7 fits nice. We used the AM headers which fit perfect but decided to move the engine forward 1/4" since we smoothed the firewall. I used a stock LS7 pan which fits but one of the TWO sump drain plugs will need to be relocated.

As for upgrades - sounds like you are willing to consider LA based shops so I highly recomend Charlie @ RPM Motors in Santa Clarita (just north-east of LA). I found him recomended on the corvetteforum and he's less than a couple hrs drive from me which was important. He knows and builds modified LS-engines all day long. Blown, turbo, nitrous, mostly LS3/7/9 based on the number of mad vette's (mostly Z06's) usually in his shop (and a fair selection of GTO's, Cadillac CTS, late model Camaro's getting some 427 love action). He has a full machine-shop, inhouse dyno and a shop floor you could eat off. He deals with pretty much everything you mentioned although he has enough experience that he knows what fails and what dosn't in the real world. I'm not planning boost - just N/A on my build. Among other things he helped me spec a cam, upgraded to Katech rod bolts and valvetrain and upgraded to SS ex valves as BA mentioned. Valve job, ported and decked my heads, ported the stock intake and TB, dialed in the cam and a whole bunch of stuff I don't recall. Oh yeah, he programmed the stock ECU for all the above mods and is going to complete the tune when I take the car up to him. He is well known for his tunes and results-based approach to mods. I'm real happy with his work and the price. He will help you plan your build before starting.

There's your meat and potatoes combination in there somewhere :-)

Keep us posted on progress.
G.

[Cdog]

Congrats on the new direction cdog! Good advice on those two forums - read as much as you can. The good news is you have a solid foundation with a complete engine. That should save having to buy any more bits and pieces than you are already going to have to.

Two pieces of advice up front:

1 - Figure the realistic cost of everything else you will have to do just to get the engine in there and running. As others have said - don't be surprised if you end up a good ways into the cost of the engine again to get there. Be realistic about it. Complete fuel system (including the tank/pump, lines etc, cooling system, a harness if not reusing stock or modifications if reusing stock, fbw throttle or cable and matching TB?, oil system (see below), headers and engine mounts that fit YOUR setup, custom tune if using stock ECU, custom intake tube and MAF to feed the TB, upgraded clutch/pp/fw if you upgrade the engine, O2 sensors and don't forget all those fancy fittings you will want to use - they add-up. Figure what accessory drive you are going to run and that will work for YOUR setup. And then there's the optional fasteners, injectors, rails, balancer etc.

THEN decide if you still want to do the other work to the engine now or later.

2 - Back to that oil system. Decide on a wet or dry sump setup now, before you go pulling it apart. It's cruicial. There is no performance advantage either way (depending on who you talk to on the day). The sump pan itself, the lines to the tank and the tank itself (note you will need an aftermarket or custom to fit the first gen as others have done) plus the mounting itself - decide where and how. Oh, and you'll want a catch-can as well. In hind sight, considering my goals for the car, I'd have skipped the dry sump and gone wet - having Charlie use a std oil pump and change pans (couple other considerations). But it is where it is and it will be good insurance for the occasional autox event.

PM me and we can talk about the AM sub - that's what mine is. The LS7 fits nice. We used the AM headers which fit perfect but decided to move the engine forward 1/4" since we smoothed the firewall. I used a stock LS7 pan which fits but one of the TWO sump drain plugs will need to be relocated.

As for upgrades - sounds like you are willing to consider LA based shops so I highly recomend Charlie @ RPM Motors in Santa Clarita (just north-east of LA). I found him recomended on the corvetteforum and he's less than a couple hrs drive from me which was important. He knows and builds modified LS-engines all day long. Blown, turbo, nitrous, mostly LS3/7/9 based on the number of mad vette's (mostly Z06's) usually in his shop (and a fair selection of GTO's, Cadillac CTS, late model Camaro's getting some 427 love action). He has a full machine-shop, inhouse dyno and a shop floor you could eat off. He deals with pretty much everything you mentioned although he has enough experience that he knows what fails and what dosn't in the real world. I'm not planning boost - just N/A on my build. Among other things he helped me spec a cam, upgraded to Katech rod bolts and valvetrain and upgraded to SS ex valves as BA mentioned. Valve job, ported and decked my heads, ported the stock intake and TB, dialed in the cam and a whole bunch of stuff I don't recall. Oh yeah, he programmed the stock ECU for all the above mods and is going to complete the tune when I take the car up to him. He is well known for his tunes and results-based approach to mods. I'm real happy with his work and the price. He will help you plan your build before starting.

There's your meat and potatoes combination in there somewhere :-)

Keep us posted on progress.
G.


Thanks for the advise. I'm starting from scratch with the car so most of this stuff I'll need to buy anyway. I have the stock wire harness and plan to keep it to save money. I'm not intimidated to tear open the engine but not totally against taking it to someone who really knows what they're doing. If I do take it to a shop in LA I'd like to have it dyno'd and set up so it's turn key when I put it in the car.

Were you able to get 1 7/8 headers with the AM frame? I'd like to keep the dry sump. I have everything for it including the oil cooler and lines. Why would you consider going wet sump? Why did you move the engine forward?

Thanks!

[Gandalf]

I appreciate you have to buy the parts anyway - what I'm saying is there is a difference in eg: buying a fuel tank for an LS vs non-LS. The argument could be had that you would have bought a fuel pump for a non-LS as well - I'm just saying plan it out and put some numbers next to it. There was mention of replacing pistons, rockers, valvetrain....you may or may not be surprised how quickly this stuff can add up for an LS build, especially for an LS7 and especially for one pushing close to 700hp. And as much as everyone throws "LS7" on the end of their list LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6.... you can be sure LS7 is different enough in several respects to keep you on your toes. Drysump, balancer & accessory drive are just a couple of examples. You can still mix and match a few things from LS1-6 but you have to be aware of the LS7 differences.

If you have the budget then go for it but all the same, I'd plan it out ahead of time. Less surprises = a happy build. I'm making that point because I see you wanting to save some money on the harness. Lay it out and be sure you can route everything where you want (ECU especially). I want my ECU behind the dash - not hanging off my inner fender or the firewall. There will be lots of extra wires and such plus your dash and gauges may need to be considered. Same again - if you are up for it - do it. For me, even though I'm very confident around wiring and electronics, it was easy to see the value in having Speartech design a custom harness with all the individual options I wanted. I wanted to be able to route things exactly as I wanted so I could keep the super-clean theme of my build, even under the hood and behind the dash.

Turn Key: I'm sure Charlie can do you a turn-key setup. Mine practiacally was but now I need for the rest of my project to catch-up (affore mentioned fuel, harness, plumbing etc). It will be a while. TurnKey Engine Supply here in Oceanside is also highly recomended.

Headers: When I enquired with AM direct about a year ago, they don't do a 1-7/8 header. I received some good advice from Frank and others about my goal for a street car and torque and headers. The advantage of the headers being made by the same folks that made the frame made it an easy decision for me. I had already seen them on an LS engine in the frame - they fit like a glove. So read up and decide if you really want/need 1-7/8 for your build. They are not the only option I am sure but I've been down that road before with headers that don't fit, especially coated ones. Or go all out and have Lemons make you some ($). But again - plan it out.

Why wet sump? Less plumbing and less hassle (keeping that clean, minimalist look). By now I already had my Katech Valve Covers, ATi balancer specific to the LS7 so it was easier to keep going. Re-using the oil lines, cooler and tank is a great plan but you have to know everything will fit somewhere on the first gen, especially if you are talking about the stock oil tank. I've not seen anyone do it yet but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Remember, this is not a Z06 engine bay.

Chose to move the engine away from the firewall to give some extra clearance. It was little enough that you may well find yours fits just fine. Drop it in the frame and mock as much of it up before you build everything. Make sure things clear, measure for oil lines and component placement, harness length - you get the idea. Take lots of photos while it's all in there. Several hours now may save you a lot of heartache later when you come to re-assemble.

Not trying to rain on your parade - just trying to give some down-to-earth advice based on things I've read and learned along the way. There's lots of really smart (and more experienced) people than me on this board. By all means build it - you are off to a great start. Just put some time in now before you tear it all apart. And again, my focus for you is not on your fear or abilities to tear into the engine itself, it's all the other things around the engine to support your build, even if it's stock.

Hope that helps.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Why wet sump? Less plumbing and less hassle (keeping that clean, minimalist look). By now I already had my Katech Valve Covers, ATi balancer specific to the LS7 so it was easier to keep going. Re-using the oil lines, cooler and tank is a great plan but you have to know everything will fit somewhere on the first gen, especially if you are talking about the stock oil tank. I've not seen anyone do it yet but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Remember, this is not a Z06 engine bay.

All good points G. I spoke to Dan Lemons. He said custom headers for that frame/engine combo is $1700 (ouch!) and he needs the car up in Paso Robles to do it.

Here is the dry sump install on a 69 by the master:

http://www.lateral-g.net/tech_articles/LS7_install/

Ron

[Cdog]

I really appreciate your advise. Thank you. You can't tell from the picture but my engine is complete minus the GM ecu. I have everything down to the belts. I even have the torque tube bell housing and clutch. Just like marine everything "Corvette" costs more $$$.:bsjerk: :seizure:My cousin has a shop in LA Torrance called Starlite. He's doing body,paint and some of the fab that's over my head. He says we can run the tank where the battery would go. We will see. Have you found it absolutely necessary to go with a ATI balancer or can you stick with the stock unit? I maybe wrong but GM had to engineer the stock unit to 7000 rpm or more so it aught to do well.

After running my cousins shop car at El Toro I've seen where a large road race rpm band will pay off on the track and auto cross. The larger tube headers are part of what helps make that happen. I'm building this car with streetability as a secondary concern. We may have to build our own.

I'm planning on running a road race fuel cell. I don't want to build a street car with over priced custom stuff, then turn around and spend more money to make the car work on the track.

I'm a huge sponge soaking up all the info I can get. Thank you again.



I appreciate you have to buy the parts anyway - what I'm saying is there is a difference in eg: buying a fuel tank for an LS vs non-LS. The argument could be had that you would have bought a fuel pump for a non-LS as well - I'm just saying plan it out and put some numbers next to it. There was mention of replacing pistons, rockers, valvetrain....you may or may not be surprised how quickly this stuff can add up for an LS build, especially for an LS7 and especially for one pushing close to 700hp. And as much as everyone throws "LS7" on the end of their list LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6.... you can be sure LS7 is different enough in several respects to keep you on your toes. Drysump, balancer & accessory drive are just a couple of examples. You can still mix and match a few things from LS1-6 but you have to be aware of the LS7 differences.

If you have the budget then go for it but all the same, I'd plan it out ahead of time. Less surprises = a happy build. I'm making that point because I see you wanting to save some money on the harness. Lay it out and be sure you can route everything where you want (ECU especially). I want my ECU behind the dash - not hanging off my inner fender or the firewall. There will be lots of extra wires and such plus your dash and gauges may need to be considered. Same again - if you are up for it - do it. For me, even though I'm very confident around wiring and electronics, it was easy to see the value in having Speartech design a custom harness with all the individual options I wanted. I wanted to be able to route things exactly as I wanted so I could keep the super-clean theme of my build, even under the hood and behind the dash.

Turn Key: I'm sure Charlie can do you a turn-key setup. Mine practiacally was but now I need for the rest of my project to catch-up (affore mentioned fuel, harness, plumbing etc). It will be a while. TurnKey Engine Supply here in Oceanside is also highly recomended.

Headers: When I enquired with AM direct about a year ago, they don't do a 1-7/8 header. I received some good advice from Frank and others about my goal for a street car and torque and headers. The advantage of the headers being made by the same folks that made the frame made it an easy decision for me. I had already seen them on an LS engine in the frame - they fit like a glove. So read up and decide if you really want/need 1-7/8 for your build. They are not the only option I am sure but I've been down that road before with headers that don't fit, especially coated ones. Or go all out and have Lemons make you some ($). But again - plan it out.

Why wet sump? Less plumbing and less hassle (keeping that clean, minimalist look). By now I already had my Katech Valve Covers, ATi balancer specific to the LS7 so it was easier to keep going. Re-using the oil lines, cooler and tank is a great plan but you have to know everything will fit somewhere on the first gen, especially if you are talking about the stock oil tank. I've not seen anyone do it yet but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Remember, this is not a Z06 engine bay.

Chose to move the engine away from the firewall to give some extra clearance. It was little enough that you may well find yours fits just fine. Drop it in the frame and mock as much of it up before you build everything. Make sure things clear, measure for oil lines and component placement, harness length - you get the idea. Take lots of photos while it's all in there. Several hours now may save you a lot of heartache later when you come to re-assemble.

Not trying to rain on your parade - just trying to give some down-to-earth advice based on things I've read and learned along the way. There's lots of really smart (and more experienced) people than me on this board. By all means build it - you are off to a great start. Just put some time in now before you tear it all apart. And again, my focus for you is not on your fear or abilities to tear into the engine itself, it's all the other things around the engine to support your build, even if it's stock.

Hope that helps.

[Gandalf]

All good points G. I spoke to Dan Lemons. He said custom headers for that frame/engine combo is $1700 (ouch!) and he needs the car up in Paso Robles to do it.

Here is the dry sump install on a 69 by the master:

http://www.lateral-g.net/tech_articles/LS7_install/

Ron

No surprise at all on the Lemons - they are a work of art and will 110% fit YOUR install perfectly.

I've taken some ideas from these articles but to my point about a plan: You need to realize that the parts used in that build are not all stock. That's not a stock oil tank, custom fitment of the tank and custom lines to/from the $800 oil pan. Have you priced AN-12 fittings lately? That's a nice $500 LS7-specific ATi balancer also. I'm not saying it hasn't been done or that it's not possible and with some stock parts. Just plan it out, mock it up and price it out. People read these artcles and make assumptions about what it takes to do same. Some of that small stuff is what will kill your budget/project. If you have the budget - go for it.

G.

[Gandalf]

Sounds like you are well on your way to thinking it through. A phone call to an expert LS engine-builder of your choice will help you spec the engine for your needs. Much more accurately than anyone will tell you via the Internet IMO. I went with the ATi because I could while the engine was being built. For $300 less I could have gone stock. Another nice piece of insurance IMHO. Was it necessary? - who knows. Same can be said for the electric water pump. Just know those price differences beforehand and see if it works for your budget. Your attitude toward build-it-once and overpriced custom are healthy albeit a fine line to walk from time to time. Excellent to hear you picked up such a complete engine. For a 600rwhp build - you can expect to toss the stock clutch setup. It's worth something to someone (sell on LS1Tech) and will help buy new. There again - you can kiss-off $1k+ for a decent setup.

That location is exactly where my oil tank is going. I have a Ricks stainless unit I'm going to run for now but only because it's built for that specific placement in a first gen and I picked it up a while back. I'm having Charlie build me a custom tank for that same corner of the car that will hold more oil. That's probably the direction I would go if I were you since you are talking about the track and fuel cells. Just make sure it is a quality tank with the fittings/mounting you need and the internal baffles/airation pieces.

I did two things on my build which were relatively free upgrades - run the newer LS9 filter - has a better ability to filter and has better "burst" flow capacity. Can't hurt and not any more expensive than stock even over the counter at the dealer. And I bought some magnetic drain plugs for the pan (x2) as extra insurance.

If you can build your own headers - absolutely!

Again - get with a reputable builder of your choice and spec out the entire drivetrain including headers, wheel/tire sizes, rear end ratio etc.

G.


I really appreciate your advise. Thank you. You can't tell from the picture but my engine is complete minus the GM ecu. I have everything down to the belts. I even have the torque tube bell housing and clutch. Just like marine everything "Corvette" costs more $$$.:bsjerk: :seizure:My cousin has a shop in LA Torrance called Starlite. He's doing body,paint and some of the fab that's over my head. He says we can run the tank where the battery would go. We will see. Have you found it absolutely necessary to go with a ATI balancer or can you stick with the stock unit? I maybe wrong but GM had to engineer the stock unit to 7000 rpm or more so it aught to do well.

After running my cousins shop car at El Toro I've seen where a large road race rpm band will pay off on the track and auto cross. The larger tube headers are part of what helps make that happen. I'm building this car with streetability as a secondary concern. We may have to build our own.

I'm planning on running a road race fuel cell. I don't want to build a street car with over priced custom stuff, then turn around and spend more money to make the car work on the track.

I'm a huge sponge soaking up all the info I can get. Thank you again.

[BA.]

I would chime in but since Gandalf and I have faced the same challenges and he's covered the hot items for you. Figuring the things out beforehand like he mentioned (wet-sump/dry-sump, accessory drive, headers/mount compatibility,etc) is really the thing to do first with the LS7 transplant.

The $1000 dollar bills do add up quickly. :(

[Gandalf]

The $1000 dollar bills do add up quickly. :(

Amen to that brother!

[BA.]

gotta have a talk with this guy....

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37448&d=1271277385

[turbo kid]

Very nice first LS motor!(Lucky dog)

[XLexusTech]

whats an ls7 going for these days?

[Cdog]

whats an ls7 going for these days?


10-15k complete from my experience.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LS7-Engine-43-000miles-LS1-LS2-LS6-/270569588710?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3eff3447e6

[BA.]

Used can be had for 8k - 10k

[bijanmaleki]

For machine work in the phoenix area Baskos and Standard Machine are great, but cheaper ones would be B&B machine