Would I be disappointed with a 70-73 Camaro?

[Vicinity]

Let me start this off by saying, I do realize you all are not me, and therefore do not have my exact same tastes, ideas of disappointment and such. I would just like feedback to what you think in regards to this event.

Since that's out of the way, some of you may remember me posting a while back about getting a 67-68 Camaro, and I found and looked over a few that turned out to be total piles. I have realized finding a $10k 1st gen, non-1969, is pretty damn hard in my section of the country. Some of you recommended flying out to pick up one in the Western US region, and I think this is a good idea except, I have a full time job, then I have full time College, which makes spare time like that very hard to come by. This may become my one and only option if this car does not work out (I'm going to look at a fully redone 67 with no rust, complete body work, detroit suspension, ZZ4 crate with no miles, etc for $10k OBO).

Now, would I be disappointed in a 70-73 as far as a car that would be a good DD and good semi-track car? It would be my only car, so it needs that all around factor.

70-73 has a lot more cars available, which is why I'm considering them. I do like the body style, though, not as much as I like the 67-68 cars.

Also, is there a large aftermarket for 70-73's? I haven't really done much searching on them, so I have no clue about that.

Thanks for reading, sorry if it is a bit long.

[mpozzi]

If I'd read this inquiry several years ago, I'd advise against a second-gen but there's tons of aftermarket go-fast and handle-good stuff available for these cars now. Options range from the standard stock-sub, lowering springs, and higher rate rear leafs to full coilover with many variations in between. Given you're still in college and probably haven't won the lottery, you can improve your cars handling with lowering springs and stiffer rear leafs, good shocks, good sway bars, and wider wheels with stickier tires. All that and nothing more will give you lots of bang for the buck for a start. A good alignment and you're ready to hit the autocross course yet have the car be compliant on the street.

From there, look at upgrading the brakes. Then start with the drivetrain. Complete one step at a time and make sure you can drive the car most of the time. You have no idea how many people start on a monumental project such as this and never get to the driving part ...

That '67 sounds like a pretty good deal if it's as you describe ...

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[dropit69]

i agree 100 percent with Mary the aftermarket is now starting to make almost everything to make them handle awesome and stock i think they handle better than a first gen..

[Twentyover]

I really like mine....

Only you can judge if you'll be disappointed. I'm of the opinion the 2nd gen cars are fundamentally better, but that's just my personal bias

[Vicinity]

If I'd read this inquiry several years ago, I'd advise against a second-gen but there's tons of aftermarket go-fast and handle-good stuff available for these cars now. Options range from the standard stock-sub, lowering springs, and higher rate rear leafs to full coilover with many variations in between. Given you're still in college and probably haven't won the lottery, you can improve your cars handling with lowering springs and stiffer rear leafs, good shocks, good sway bars, and wider wheels with stickier tires. All that and nothing more will give you lots of bang for the buck for a start. A good alignment and you're ready to hit the autocross course yet have the car be compliant on the street.

From there, look at upgrading the brakes. Then start with the drivetrain. Complete one step at a time and make sure you can drive the car most of the time. You have no idea how many people start on a monumental project such as this and never get to the driving part ...

That '67 sounds like a pretty good deal if it's as you describe ...

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

Unfortunately, I do not have the full $10k and he has other people looking, I'm going to offer him $8k, almost all the money to my name and I really want it. :(

To be honest, I started looking at 70-73 because I read about your car in CP. I did have a list of things I wanted to do in a certain order, brakes, rear, suspension, ls iron block, t56, and then whatever to finish it up. I know there are a lot of sponsors that have an entire line of products for first gen cars, but I haven't seen much for second gens, and is really one reason I am questioning buying one. Though I haven't searched a whole lot, I cannot find an aftermarket subframe like the ones offered for first gens.

Do you have a Project Update thread I can look over?

[youthpastor]

If I'd read this inquiry several years ago, I'd advise against a second-gen but there's tons of aftermarket go-fast and handle-good stuff available for these cars now. Options range from the standard stock-sub, lowering springs, and higher rate rear leafs to full coilover with many variations in between. Given you're still in college and probably haven't won the lottery, you can improve your cars handling with lowering springs and stiffer rear leafs, good shocks, good sway bars, and wider wheels with stickier tires. All that and nothing more will give you lots of bang for the buck for a start. A good alignment and you're ready to hit the autocross course yet have the car be compliant on the street.

From there, look at upgrading the brakes. Then start with the drivetrain. Complete one step at a time and make sure you can drive the car most of the time. You have no idea how many people start on a monumental project such as this and never get to the driving part ...

That '67 sounds like a pretty good deal if it's as you describe ...

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

i'D LISTEN TO HER! let's see..stock subframe- leafsprings- and she is taking care of business on the autocross track- Second Gens rock. go for it- good luck on that car

[dipren443]

i agree 100 percent with Mary the aftermarket is now starting to make almost everything to make them handle awesome and stock i think they handle better than a first gen..


You think?? :P No doubt about that one. Coming from an owner of both, no comparison. My 69 stock felt like an ox cart. My 73 feels like it is on rails by comparison.

[mpozzi]

The main limiting factor with using leafs is wheel width and tire sizes. Coilovers allow a wider wheel and tire to be used; if you upgrade the drivetrain with a bit more horsepower and torque, you'll need traction and that means rubber on the ground.

Tubular control arms (especially the uppers) give additional caster and better handling in turns. Package this with lowering springs, shocks, and good swaybars, and you're pretty much there.

I'd start with the suspension, solid body bushings, Del-a-Lum control arm/rear leaf bushings, and then brakes. Work up a good, predictable, and most of all, practical drivetrain before choosing wheels and tires. Then purchase the wheels and tires ...

Tires make the biggest difference between a car that handles so-so and one that can get it done!! My butt cannot tell the difference between a three-link, four-link, air suspended, stock front sub with lowering springs, rear leafs, or whatever the flavor is of the month. I'm looking at a car for manners, compliance, and willingness to go where pointed with minimal fuss and drama. All parts have to work together to get this done and having something that's more sophisticated doesn't always make it better. You can build a good handling and fun car with your budget ...

As for the Project Updates, I don't really have one as my car is usually a work in progress. As am I with my driving ...

Cheers and ask more questions,
Mary Pozzi

[zbugger]

I know there are a lot of sponsors that have an entire line of products for first gen cars, but I haven't seen much for second gens, and is really one reason I am questioning buying one. Though I haven't searched a whole lot, I cannot find an aftermarket subframe like the ones offered for first gens.

Take a look at a lot of the same vendors that offer parts for first gens and you'll see that they also have stuff for second gens. DSE, Morrison, Jake's Rod Shop, they all offer a second gen front subframe. Also, consider that many people consider the second gen a better platform to begin with.

[tazzz25906112]

Mary's spot on and the 2nd gen is my favorite over the first (strange around here I know LOL)..... You mention that this car had to do it all for you and I would say if the cars is your principle transportation,,,,,, The second gen is your only choice. It handles far superior to the first in stock form (and even when done if you talk about bad weather conditions). Just a little food for thought and confusion LOL...

[rrstroker71]

second gens are coming into there own. I have one and that is why I am selling my T/A. They Rock, [when done right]

[novaderrik]

bigger front brakes are a spindle swap away- any 73-77 midsize and 77-96 fullsize front spindle is a bolt in deal, so there are many Caprice station wagons and cops cars sitting in junkyard just waiting to donate their spindles and brakes to your car. the 94-96 spindles are the strongest and lightest of the bunch, but they need you to swap in the matching bigger lower balljoint. use a set of Camaro 1LE brake rotors, and you'll have 12" brakes with the same bolt pattern.

[Lowend]

I know nothing of these cars.... ;)

The 2nd gen is so much of a better driving car out of the box...

[Taman]

I love my 75 TA. I also agree with Mary. The lady knows what she's talking about. I am currently installing a Heidts front subframe and rear 4 link. I had the Hotchkis TVS setup. Worked great. But I got an incredible deal on the Heidts stuff. Go for the 2nd gen.

[BonzoHansen]

2nd gens FTW


(they already said all the reasons why...)

[JEFFTATE]

'70-'73 2nd Gens rock !!

[Rod]

if you find an extra 2nd gen laying around let me know :cheers: I could use another awesome car! for all of the above reasons!! and I think it will be the car of choice over the next few years

[79-TA]

Back in 2003 and 2004 when I was searching for my first car, I did everything in my power to locate a decent 1st gen (within my 3000 dollar life savings price range.) As far as I was concerned, the '67-'69 Camaros were the epitome of automotive perfection.

I was lucky to end up with my 1979 Trans Am which I absolutely love. Much of the 1st gen's appeal was from its gorgeous body lines, in particular, the "coke bottle" shape with the rising curves over both fenders. By the time I got my Trans Am, I came to realize that the 2nd gen was not only a more modern platform, but also much more of a designer's car. That is, the coke bottle lines that I adored so much on the 1st gen were also on the 2nd gen but even more accentuated. Furthermore, the way the sides of the 2nd gen just keep curving inward until out of sight was fascinating. Long story short, I've actually come to prefer much of the 2nd gen's styling over the 1st gen.

Also, I've become a bit of a 2nd gen snob. That is, when I see a 1st gen Camaro with big wheels on stock suspension, my first thought is usually, "pffft, that car can't even accept static negative camber without modification."

[Tom Welch]

Second gen f-body cars are very good from a handling standpoint when comapred to a 1st gen, you've heard this already. An option might be a Firebird instead of a Camaro, lower prices and many nice ones out there.

[srh3trinity]

I would broaden my horizons to both early Camaros and Firebirds. The early second gen Camaros are the epitome of clean lines. The Firebirds from 70-75 are clean too, but they have a little more visual interest to them. If I am not mistaken, the stock Firebird wheel wells can take a little more tire too, particularly on the early second gen cars.

[formula]

You'll never look back. The second-gen was, in many ways, the magnum opus of the pony cars. Don't get me wrong, first gens and mustangs (and AMC's!) have huge potential as well, but if you're looking stock vs. stock as a starting point (which, i think, is much more important if you're looking at a budget build) the second gen pretty much can't be beat.

[John Wright]

Let me start this off by saying, I do realize you all are not me, and therefore do not have my exact same tastes, ideas of disappointment and such. I would just like feedback to what you think in regards to this event.

Since that's out of the way, some of you may remember me posting a while back about getting a 67-68 Camaro, and I found and looked over a few that turned out to be total piles. I have realized finding a $10k 1st gen, non-1969, is pretty damn hard in my section of the country. Some of you recommended flying out to pick up one in the Western US region, and I think this is a good idea except, I have a full time job, then I have full time College, which makes spare time like that very hard to come by. This may become my one and only option if this car does not work out (I'm going to look at a fully redone 67 with no rust, complete body work, detroit suspension, ZZ4 crate with no miles, etc for $10k OBO).

Now, would I be disappointed in a 70-73 as far as a car that would be a good DD and good semi-track car? It would be my only car, so it needs that all around factor.

70-73 has a lot more cars available, which is why I'm considering them. I do like the body style, though, not as much as I like the 67-68 cars.

Also, is there a large aftermarket for 70-73's? I haven't really done much searching on them, so I have no clue about that.

Thanks for reading, sorry if it is a bit long.Your situation while looking for a 1st gen is EXACTLY why I ended up with the early 2nd gen that I have now.....1st gens in my area were nothing but expensive piles of rusty parts, many were still in multiple boxes in somebody's garage, but I kept passing up all of the "on the road and running" 2nd gens...I gave up and grabbed an early 2nd gen and never looked back.

[John Wright]

You have no idea how many people start on a monumental project such as this and never get to the driving part ...

Ouch....dang.... that truth stings a little bit....LOL

Mary has great advice, as always,

....keep the upgrade projects going in small stages so that you can keep enjoying your car while it just gets better and better.

[dipren443]

I would broaden my horizons to both early Camaros and Firebirds. The early second gen Camaros are the epitome of clean lines. The Firebirds from 70-75 are clean too, but they have a little more visual interest to them. If I am not mistaken, the stock Firebird wheel wells can take a little more tire too, particularly on the early second gen cars.

You are correct. It is the shape of the lip that allows you to run more tire on the Pontiac without the threat of slicing the sidewall.

[Vicinity]

Well, I just talked to the guy with the 67 Camaro, and he's not willing to lower the price that much.

I guess I'm looking for 70-73's now!

To you guys about the Firebirds, the reason I'm not looking into Firebirds is I just am not as fond of them as I am Camaros. I know it sounds ridiculous, a car is a car, but my Dad had a C3 Corvette and a third gen Camaro when I was little, and he used to drive me everywhere in that Camaro, and I loved it.

But don't get me wrong, I did look into 67 and 68 Firebirds, but they are even MORE rare than Camaros and prices start at 13 grand.

I did find this gem, though:

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/1638414913.html

Is there any things I should look out for when going for a second gen? Bad rust spots, quarters, leafs?

[John Wright]

Is there any things I should look out for when going for a second gen? Bad rust spots, quarters, leafs?Floor pans, lower front fenders, rockers, rear frame rails, and trunk floors...are all common places to look for car cancer. Rear frame rails are probably your biggest problem, if you find alot of rust there, you will need to assess whether you have the means or abilities to replace those. The other spots that I mentioned are fairly well within most car guy's range of DIY repairs.

[tony byram]

As the owner of a 72 Z28, no,I think that you will be very happy. Ive always loved the styling of these cars, since day one. I say, good choice and go for it!

[Vicinity]

I don't mean to be bothersome about this but I was also wondering...

Aside from sheet metal and suspension, what is different between first gens and early second gens? Are the subframes actually any different? Are the frame rails different? I know the car is slightly longer, why is that?

And for what it's worth, what does a stock one without a BB weight?

[zbugger]

The front subframe is different. Front steer compared to rear steer. MUCH improved geometry, it's a little lower already, and I think the track is a little wider. Factory it was a better handling car.

[David Pozzi]

Second gen's are terrible, get a first gen with vent windows! :box2:

[BonzoHansen]

Second gen's are terrible, get a first gen with vent windows! :box2:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/02/churchsignVentlWindows-1.jpg

I love a good cue.

[dadto2jays]

here is a pict of my buddie's camaro 72 totally bad ass 454-with a pro charger, every show he takes it to he cleans house with this and he drives the heck out of it...I will have to say that 2nd gen are super cool cars....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_9036-1.jpg

[camcojb]

I prefer 70-73 over the 67/8 cars. 69's, that's a different story. :) As has been said, the second gens are light years ahead in handling stock, so they're much cheaper to get up to speed handling-wise than a first gen. I think they look great also, but that is subjective.

I just picked up a 73 for a track and street project.

Jody

[monza]

70-73 they are the new 69. Just say no to vent windows.....

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Yes, the track is wider. Yes, they have better geometry and handle better right our of the gate. Pull the trigger and never look back. You'll have a great project and ton of admirers....

[MrQuick]

Of all the generations, 70-73 is THE best looking Camaro EVER...till 2009 came along I wasn't so sure.

The most fun to drive too.

A crazy mean looking front, a big bdukin' back side, an engine compartment that will take anything, a nice handling suspension out of the block. What more can a man want.

Vince

[Zee]

Your situation while looking for a 1st gen is EXACTLY why I ended up with the early 2nd gen that I have now.....1st gens in my area were nothing but expensive piles of rusty parts, many were still in multiple boxes in somebody's garage, but I kept passing up all of the "on the road and running" 2nd gens...I gave up and grabbed an early 2nd gen and never looked back.


X 3

I started looking for a 68 Camaro, then a 67-68 Bird. Never could find a rust free one of either for the kind of money I had to spend at the time. I already had owned a 72 Camaro and absolutely loved that car. That led me to my 71 Formula which drives like a dream compared to the 72 which was all ratty by the time I sold it. Anyway, be careful with the Firebird stuff 'cause although I think they look everybit as good as a 70-73 Camaro, parts availability is nowhere near the same. Expect to pay serious money for bumpers, fenders, dashes and trim parts. If you find a nice and complete 70-73 bird, you will have a very nice car that is not near as cookie cutter as either Camaro.

[zbugger]

... What more can a man want....
Boobs. And a nice cheese steak sandwich. And a beer. And the remote control for the big flat screen tv.

[jerhofer]

The front subframe is different. Front steer compared to rear steer. MUCH improved geometry, it's a little lower already, and I think the track is a little wider. Factory it was a better handling car.

When the '70 Camaro's were introduced, all of the magazines raved about the improvement over the '69's. I traded a '69 Nova SS for a '70 Camaro at that time. The Nova had the same suspension as the '69 Camaro. The new Camaro was a much better driving car. And, I still think it was, and is, one of the best looking mass produced cars ever!!

[vanzuuk1]

Gumball rally.Yellow camaro.Thats it.

[MonzaRacer]

And they use tall spindles so Kore 3 had brackets to bolt on BIG Corvette brakes!
Throw in a Lee fast power steering box, think about AirRide for the future, big wheels can be had cheap from Cragar in Soft 8s, and sticky tires are a trip to local tire store/pep boys(yes pep boys can order some Nitto Tires).
Slide in a L92 6.0 6 speed, and have fun.

[JHamister]

My first car was a '76 bird, bought in 1980. I loved that car. I think it's somewhere in Florida now. Go with the 2nd gen (but I like my 68 convertible too).

[BrianJ]

I didnt read the entire thread so i apologize for that but...get a 2nd gen. If you really want a first gen ask your grandma for one, she probably has a cookie cutter in her drawer to make all the 1stn gens you want.

[93Polo]

I like a early 2nd gen Camaro with the RS bumpers on an otherwise non RS front end. The aftermarket has been catching up on the 2nd gen.

If you are not hung up on a Camaro I would look at 1st/2nd gen Firebirds and some really cool non Chevelle a-bodies have been showing up.