Pro-touring events and tire wear ratings

[DLinson]

It looks like most of the events are going to a 200 treadwear ratings. I happen to have a set of Sumitomo HR tires. They are not a competition tire but they do have a 160 tread wear rating. Are they a definite rule breaker? I don't believe they have any advantage over a BFG or Nitto. They are really inexpensive, $115 for a 315/35R17. I'd hate to dump a lot of money into better tires when I'm really in it to have fun. I've taken it to a few Goodguys events without question but the Nova was over 2 seconds slower than the winner of the class. (maybe it has to do more with my driving skills).
Here's a link to the Sumitomo tire on the tire rack.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Sumitomo&tireModel=HTR+Z&partnum=135ZR7HTRZ

Do you think there will be any issue runnin them in the events?

Dennis

[Bryce]

Are you competing? or just to have fun? You should be able to run just not able to win your class?

[tazzz25906112]

falcon is right,,, if your out there for fun (which is the best way to really enjoy yourself at these events) it doesn't matter...... If you're there to compete you'll be knocked out for tires...

[mpozzi]

It depends on the event as some will allow you to run but only for Exhibition (no awards) while others won't accept your entry, period. The UTQG, or treadwear, rating has to be set somewhere and I guess it's 180 for Good Guys and 200 for most every other Pro-Touring event.

Good idea to check your eligibility beforehand as I'd hate to travel any distance just to be told no-dice.

I ran into the same problem as the Kumho Ecsta XS's are at a 180 treadwear but are only "legal" for Good Guys. Had to buy another set of 220 treadwear rated tires to run RTTC and these were pretty pricey. Needless to say, I'm taking good care of them and will limit the abuse they'll see ...

Mary Pozzi

[Bow Tie 67]

Sorry but its a sore subject. The Sumitomo are a great bang for the buck. Its to bad you have to pay to play at some events. Oh, well. Try a search for used tires, or someone selling new they are not going to use.

[CurtiSS 69]

It depends on the event as some will allow you to run but only for Exhibition (no awards) while others won't accept your entry, period. The UTQG, or treadwear, rating has to be set somewhere and I guess it's 180 for Good Guys and 200 for most every other Pro-Touring event.

Good idea to check your eligibility beforehand as I'd hate to travel any distance just to be told no-dice.

I ran into the same problem as the Kumho Ecsta XS's are at a 180 treadwear but are only "legal" for Good Guys. Had to buy another set of 220 treadwear rated tires to run RTTC and these were pretty pricey. Needless to say, I'm taking good care of them and will limit the abuse they'll see ...

Mary Pozzi

It would be great if the Pro Touring event folk's would agree on a single treadwear rating, and stay with it. This way those who want to compete won't need a garage full of tires -$$$- that are labeled for each individual event. I think most competitors would enter earlier if they knew what the requirements are well up front, and knew that the requirement wouldn't change at the last minute before the event.

It would really be a nightmare to travel 500+ miles to an event, and get disqualified before running because of the wrong tires.

Regards

-CurtiSS 69

[mpozzi]

Sorry but its a sore subject. The Sumitomo are a great bang for the buck. Its to bad you have to pay to play at some events. Oh, well. Try a search for used tires, or someone selling new they are not going to use.

Agree about the Sumi's and the same applies to the Kumho's that I have for Good Guys events. These Pro-Touring competitions are getting more and more popular. With this growth, the tire rules for these events are gradually becoming more consistent and this is good.

Personally, I think that 180-200 is a good start as there's a lot of tire sizes available in 17" and up with this treadwear. Plus, these are supposed to be street driven cars and most of us don't run our cars on R888's, A6's, or V710's (DOT R-comps) on the street. It just comes down to everyone agreeing about what that minimum UTQG should be.

If I was running a non-compliant tire, I'd be sure to get clarification if I could run their events or not before I entered ...

Mary Pozzi

[sik68]

Is there anyone out there that actually changes spring rates based on which tire they are running that day? I can imagine that if you dial a car in with really sticky R-compounds, you're going to be off base when you bolt on your street tires. There is a very large cascading effect that stems from how much weight transfer you are going to get.

I'm thinking about cars that have a lot of tuning hours into them, like Penny. Spending weeks and months on springs, shocks, alignment, sway bars, watts link, and God-knows-what will all need reconsideration.

Thoughts? Maybe I'm just over thinking it for our (mostly) recreational level.

[mpozzi]

Tire pressures and shock adjustment, plus adjustability of sway bar end links, can help but there really isn't that much "rocket science" involved. As for my car, it handles well no matter what wheel and tire combo it ends up with. It may stick better with R-Comps but having everyone using 200+ treadwear rated tires makes the playing field much more even. With my current horsepower deficit, I like this a lot ...

Different track surfaces?? Then yes if you want to be competitive ...

If any adjustment is needed, it's softening whatever you can soften. Get the car moving and not keeping it too stiff is key to maintaining compliance.

Mary Pozzi

[CurtiSS 69]

Is there anyone out there that actually changes spring rates based on which tire they are running that day? I can imagine that if you dial a car in with really sticky R-compounds, you're going to be off base when you bolt on your street tires. There is a very large cascading effect that stems from how much weight transfer you are going to get.

I'm thinking about cars that have a lot of tuning hours into them, like Penny. Spending weeks and months on springs, shocks, alignment, sway bars, watts link, and God-knows-what will all need reconsideration.

Thoughts? Maybe I'm just over thinking it for our (mostly) recreational level.

Yes. If you want to compete at the top level...All the top teams do it. Change in grip level = Change in chassis period. Small changes in grip may not require spring changes. This is why you buy all adjustable chassis components for a car that will see competition especially street and track.

For tires: I vote for 200 treadwear and above.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

[Van B]

I am one of those who is not the happiest with the 200 treadwear rule. I have been running Toyo RA1s (100 treadwear) on the street because they were reasonably priced and I was able to get a size for the rear that was a little taller than most other manufacturers.

I wanted to participate in the Road America and Motorstate Challenge events but not badly enough to drop $1000 or more on a new set of rubber. It's just not that important to me. I won't be coming out and hanging with the friends I have made here just because I might have an advantage while competing for...nothing.

I saw a post where the organizers of one of the events felt it would be more dangerous for a novice to run on R compound tires than on street tires. That is 180* from how my mind sees it. I would think you would want to give the novice as much grip as possible rather than having a harder tire go out from under him in a high speed corner.

I have reached out to a friend of mine who runs a tire store looking for the screamin' deal, but I am not holding my breath.

Going to put on the nomex suit now...

[parsonsj]

To make this whole issue even worse is the fact that there is no standard for tire compound ratings. The manufacturers are free to claim whatever rating they wish for their tires. One manufacturer's 180 tire might have a harder compound than another's 220. If the 200 rule takes root, we'll have several manufacturers selling 200 or 220 rated tires that are actually more like 160 when compared to another brand.

In fact, we probably already do. :)

jp

[66SuperSport]

As great as it is to see these pro-touring/track events starting up, the tire manufacturers are not going to start changing their products to fill the needs of a few dozen of us that are looking for new tires/sizes. I do agree with Van B in that the stickier the tire the SAFER a vehicle should be under track conditions. I feel that we will see more cars spin/lose control this year than at any of the past events. If you are taking cars/drivers that are used to high corner speeds and lots of grip and take that away they are going to have to slow down quite a bit or they will find themselves in all kinds of trouble. Go to a SCCA event and you will quickly see that tires are everything. I was at a regional autocross event with my C-5 Corvette and thought I was doing pretty good. I was right there with the rest of the street tire Super Stock cars. The fast time of the day in Super Stock was set by a bone stock 2004 Z-06 with Hoosiers. He ran a 50 some odd second course 6 seconds faster than my best time. That is a HUGE difference. The SCCA defines "Street Tires" as anything with a 140 tread wear or higher. This is something that the tire manufactureres DO look at as there are dozens of SCCA sancioned events all over the country every week of the year. If the pro-touring event organizers wanted to set a new bar for tires I think they should have used the SCCA rules for guideance. I really think that what they were trying to do was reduce the cost to the competitors in the long run, which it should. Lets face it, 100 tead wear tires are not going to last that long and most are really not suited for safe driving in wet conditions. Any set of tires that have a tread wear rating of 200 or more will be safer to drive to and from the events on and should last a couple of years of "normal" use. In the future maybe these event organizers can refer back to the SCCA rules as I personally think they make more sense, as do the tire manufacturers.

[Finch]

You will never make everyone happy.

I don’t care if it is 100, 200, 300 ,400 etc. As long as it is common across the board so we can buy one set of tires and run every event. The 200 rule will even the playing field and put it more in the drivers hands.

My opinion on the R compounds being safer is the opposite. While they do provide more grip they are much less forgiving when you reach the edge of that grip. If you do not have experience with them you can get into more trouble than with a set of street tires, The street tires give you much more warning when they are reaching the limits.

Everyone wants to run what they have the most experience with.

[CurtiSS 69]

You will never make everyone happy.

I don’t care if it is 100, 200, 300 ,400 etc. As long as it is common across the board so we can buy one set of tires and run every event. The 200 rule will even the playing field and put it more in the drivers hands.

My opinion on the R compounds being safer is the opposite. While they do provide more grip they are much less forgiving when you reach the edge of that grip. If you do not have experience with them you can get into more trouble than with a set of street tires, The street tires give you much more warning when they are reaching the limits.

Everyone wants to run what they have the most experience with.

Well said Brian. Hopefully the powers that determine these rules see this post. One treadwear rating across the board would be great. Whatever it may be.

Carrying tires to and changing tires at the event sucks. I drive my car to the Track and Autocross events. For those who trailer no problem (another bonus for those that trailer).

Just something to think about: The higher the grip level the faster you are going when you do lose it. On the flip side street tires are much harder drive quickly on, as they slide much easier and are less forgiving so it's easier to lose it and harder to get it back. There's no easy answer.


Regards

CurtiSS 69

[Vegas69]

I'm going to run exibition everywere they'll let me. I'll run more events at home where 100's are perfectly fine than out of state. I'm going for fun, not to carry home a trophy.

[monza]

I'm going to run exibition everywere they'll let me. I'll run more events at home where 100's are perfectly fine than out of state. I'm going for fun, not to carry home a trophy.

Kinda in the same boat, only because I already have new 100's- fronts are brand new, rears have less then a hundred miles on them. Maybe I should look at selling them? I do see the down side on the street... need to be warmed up all the time and I think they'll toss way more rocks/gravel at the paint.

Edit: Would I buy the same tire knowing most events have changed the rating rules, no.

[Vegas69]

I've got about 1500 miles on my R888's and they are much better on the street than the Pilot Sports on my old set of wheels. My skills aren't honed enough to win these events yet anyway, I'll wear these babies out getting some experience then switch to the PS2's if I want to try and place. That or buy another set of wheels.

[CurtiSS 69]

I'm going to run exibition everywere they'll let me. I'll run more events at home where 100's are perfectly fine than out of state. I'm going for fun, not to carry home a trophy.

You have the right philosophy. If you have fun you will take home the something better than a trophy...A great time. Just participating makes you a winner. That's good.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

[Van B]

I'm going to run exibition everywere they'll let me. I'll run more events at home where 100's are perfectly fine than out of state. I'm going for fun, not to carry home a trophy.

This is all I was hoping for in the first place. I do not have the time nor the interest in spending the money it would take to trailer my car out to SEMA to compete just to get some ink. Not that I would win my way into that position anyway.

All I wanted to do is come and participate. It doesn't sound like I will be able to do that at Faceoff at RA or Motorstate challenge because of the treadwear deal.

I wonder if the organizers of either would consider opening up to non comptetition entries in order to help pay the rent. I'll bet I am not the only one that would be interested in that. :idea:

[Bow Tie 67]

This is all I was hoping for in the first place. I do not have the time nor the interest in spending the money it would take to trailer my car out to SEMA to compete just to get some ink. Not that I would win my way into that position anyway.

All I wanted to do is come and participate. It doesn't sound like I will be able to do that at Faceoff at RA or Motorstate challenge because of the treadwear deal.

I wonder if the organizers of either would consider opening up to non comptetition entries in order to help pay the rent. I'll bet I am not the only one that would be interested in that. :idea:

I'M NUMBER 2 :smoke:

I want to run RA with my R compound, if I cant do it with my pro-tour friends then I will have to do it with my cousin and his Beemer buddies.

I Dont care about the Sema thing, its an invitational, which in my book is garbage. ( just my opinion )

I would love to see the SCCA rules taken into account, 140 treadwear.

My car is a street car, and my definition of a street car is one with insurance and plates. I know many people who race there street cars with good rubber. Its addictive.

Signed,

Sticky

[mpozzi]

You will never make everyone happy.

I don’t care if it is 100, 200, 300 ,400 etc. As long as it is common across the board so we can buy one set of tires and run every event. The 200 rule will even the playing field and put it more in the drivers hands.

My opinion on the R compounds being safer is the opposite. While they do provide more grip they are much less forgiving when you reach the edge of that grip. If you do not have experience with them you can get into more trouble than with a set of street tires, The street tires give you much more warning when they are reaching the limits.

Everyone wants to run what they have the most experience with.

Agree 100% with Brian as you can run out of talent pretty quickly when those Hoosiers reach their traction limits. The car's traveling a bit faster when those soft Hoosiers break loose too. Throw a novice driver at their first autocross or track day into this equation and things get ugly and expensive fast.

Street tires with a general treadwear rating (180, 200, whatever) is a good equalizer and will separate the best from the rest.

Cheers and typing all this on an iPhone sucks,
Mary Pozzi

[DLinson]

I've been researching the tires and found 6 tires in a 315/35-R17 that have a non-R compound and three of those have a 180 or 160. Narrows down the choices quite a bit. The Nitto NT555, NT05, and the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3. The Nitto's are $202 and $218 and the Goodyears are at $330. The Sumitomos $115 in the same size but have a 160 treadwear. Just stinks having to double the tire budget to play in Pro-touring events.

Has anyone mounted a 315-35R17 Nitto on a 10 inch rim? The Sumitomos fit fine, I just don't want to buy a tire and not be able to use it.

Thanks,
Dennis

[mpozzi]

Each tire manufacturer lists a variety of rim widths for each tire size. Obviously a tire mounted on a narrower rim would have less tread contact pad than this same size tire mounted on a rim who's width is 2" wider. Tire manufacturer's usually list a section width and this is the tire's width from the inside sidewall to the same measurement at the outside sidewall at the widest point and without any load being placed on said tire.

The tire section width varies based on the rim width. Section width is not the same as tread width as tread width is simply the distance between the outer edge and inner edge of the tread. A tire with rounded shoulders may have a greater tread width and there's no industry standard for measurement of this. Don't use tread width as a comparison between one tire and another for this exact reason but you can use it for tires of one manufacturer and model.

As far as mounting a 315 on a 10" wide wheel ... due to flexible sidewalls, it's been done but you'll get a smaller contact patch than if this same tire is mounted on a wider 11" wheel. Rethink this and go with a 295 if there's one available. You'll get the same contact patch and possibly more without the sidewall flex and stretch issues.

Taking that 315 tire as an example ... you can drop tire pressures to gain a bit of contact patch but then you're getting sidewall flex and movement with it. The car will squirm and not be solidly planted during corners. It will feel loose and "soft." You'll get disassociation between the front and rear. When the tire breaks contact, it's sharp and sudden with minimal warning. You get the idea.

The 17" wheel used to be the norm and there was tons of tires and sizes for it. Now we're a red-headed step child with the 18's and up getting all the good stuff. Try finding a 200 UTQG tire between a 275 and 315/335 in a 17" size.

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[Bryce]

So what about running a toyo R888 with 100 treadwear, will I be allowed to participate? I dont car about points or winning just competing against myself.

[Vegas69]

That's what I'm running exibition.

[Bryce]

cool, thanks Todd.

[Bryce]

Do you run the R888 on the street at all?

[Gitter Dun]

I think if we went to a spec tire rather than a tred wear value that there would be a possibility of getting some sort of savings or concessions from the tire manufacturer. Let's face it, it all boils down to dollars and cents. When I ran time trials with NASA a lot of guys were running Hoosiers, but Hoosiers are typically good for about 10 heat cycles. I personally think the R888's would be a great spec tire for the money(even tho I'm not sure I like them better than the RA-1's yet.)

[DLinson]

Mary, thanks for the info on the tire performance concerns. I'll keep that in mind before buying. I was hoping to get some feedback if someone has mounted a Nitto to a 10" rim. I'm an engineer at Hunter Engineering and we manufacture and sell tire balancers and changers along with aligners. I'm sure I can get them on the rim it's just a matter if they will function well or not. I like the way the Sumitomos handle but not sure how the Nittos will on the same rim.

I'm signed up for the Faceoff at Road America and they will not let you run exibition with a treadwear less than 200. I'm not sure about the rest of the PT events.

Dennis

[Taman]

I went to my first SCCA event and was on 100 compound tires in the rear only and street radials. Someone complained about my tires. I told the judges I was here for fun. The judges told her to relax. That I was in last place. Not just in my class but, all classes, They let me finish. Even though I was in dead last by a bunch. 7 seconds slower. I was the most improved. I think I had more fun than 90% of the people competing. They were to worried about each run. I didn't care.
I agree. All sanctioning bodies need to standardize the tire requirements. My next set of tires will be NT-05's. 200 treadwear. Everyone will be happy.
Is there a book or somewhere I can look on setting up My TA for Autocrossing? I am REAL green on this. I have been a drag racer for 20 years and have done only 2 autocross events. Need to learn how to setup my car.

[Vegas69]

Do you run the R888 on the street at all?
Mine serve as street and track tires. I have about 1500 miles and 4-5 races on them. Very happy so far.

[mpozzi]

Mary, thanks for the info on the tire performance concerns. I'll keep that in mind before buying. I was hoping to get some feedback if someone has mounted a Nitto to a 10" rim. I'm an engineer at Hunter Engineering and wheel manufacture and sell tire balancers and changers along with aligners. I'm sure I can get them on the rim it's just a matter if they will function well or not. I like the way the Sumitomos handle but not sure how the Nittos will on the same rim.

I'm signed up for the Faceoff at Road America and they will not let you run exibition with a treadwear less than 200. I'm not sure about the rest of the PT events.

Dennis

Each P/T event has their own entry criteria and some will let you run exhibition while other events won't. If they have enough entrants with cars sporting footwear with that requisite 200 treadwear rating, they want those cars to run and probably won't have an exhibition class.

So much technology for tires these days ... sidewall construction also plays a part and I forgot about this. I've driven on the Nitto's and really like them but have not tried the Sumi's yet. Bought the PS2's and like them but am not looking forward to when I have to replace them.

Mary Pozzi

[mpozzi]

I went to my first SCCA event and was on 100 compound tires in the rear only and street radials. Someone complained about my tires. I told the judges I was here for fun. The judges told her to relax. That I was in last place. Not just in my class but, all classes, They let me finish. Even though I was in dead last by a bunch. 7 seconds slower. I was the most improved. I think I had more fun than 90% of the people competing. They were to worried about each run. I didn't care.
I agree. All sanctioning bodies need to standardize the tire requirements. My next set of tires will be NT-05's. 200 treadwear. Everyone will be happy.
Is there a book or somewhere I can look on setting up My TA for Autocrossing? I am REAL green on this. I have been a drag racer for 20 years and have done only 2 autocross events. Need to learn how to setup my car.

PM me and I can help with cyber-advice. Once you get your car handling well, you'll love autocrossing and will do better. Check out next month's Camaro Performers and I think Super Chevy as both have some articles that pertain to autocrossing. They're pretty entry level but have some good tips and hints on how to go fast and ways to prepare both you and your car.

Mary Pozzi

[James OLC]

Do you run the R888 on the street at all?

No problems at all.

[Vegas69]

James, are you running exibition or PS2's?

[Bryce]

Mine serve as street and track tires. I have about 1500 miles and 4-5 races on them. Very happy so far.

Awesome, That is great news. Okay i am almost ready to pull the trigger then!

[Bryce]

No problems at all.

Thanks James. Okay now im ready to buy, HAHA.

[Bow Tie 67]

Thanks James. Okay now im ready to buy, HAHA.

The R888's are like cocaine :yum:

[Bryce]

The R888's are like cocaine :yum:

HAHA, Im getting excited about this!

[Taman]

Thanks Mary. You will be hearing from me.

[79-TA]

Mine serve as street and track tires. I have about 1500 miles and 4-5 races on them. Very happy so far.

How long did it take you to put that many miles on your tires? Do you have another set you run on the street sometimes?

[Steve Chryssos]

It's 10:26 AM on Thursday April 1st:
I just spoke with Bill Howell and Scott Wahlstrom from Motor State: the sub 200 event exclusion does NOT apply to El Toro, Run Thru the Hills or Motor State Challenge. You are welcome to show up and run with sub 200 treadwear tires at the above listed events.I can't speak for other events.

The 200 treadwear policy applies ONLY to the silly trophies. You WILL be allowed to run your car with sub-200 TW tires. You will not be eligible for a trophy with sub 200 tires.

I hope I have made that clear.

El Toro, Motor State and Run Thru the Hills Sub 200 Treadwear:
Participation YES Trophy NO.

[Vegas69]

How long did it take you to put that many miles on your tires? Do you have another set you run on the street sometimes?

Maybe 4 months....I have not other wheels and tires. I sold my spare set.

[DLinson]

I ended up buying some Nitto NT05 and the arrived today. Unfortunately, they shipped me two NT05R tires for the rears which are the 00 tread wear rated tires. Now I'll have to wait a few more days for the correct rear tires. It'll give me a few days to "wear" the remaing tread off of my existing tires.

I really wanted to make it to the Faceoff event so I bit the bullet and ordered the tires. Hopefully I'll make a couple of more events this year.

Dennis

[Steve Chryssos]

Competing for the trophy makes these events a bit more fun, so no harm done, there. And the NT05's are great tires. I just got a set myself for the exact same reason.

[CurtiSS 69]

Hello All,

FWIW- One of the things I did at the RTTC during tech was to check the tire treadwear ratings...and to my surprise most cars had 300 or greater treadwear ratings. A very few were at or close to the 200 treadwear limit and I remember 3 cars of the 40 had less than 200. One at 180 and two with 100's. We just put the exhibition "E" on those cars.

It was refreshing that most folks just went out there to have a good time and did not get to wound up about the rules...I personally learned something from those folks. Hopefully I won't forget it to quickly.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

[406 Q-ship]

Hello All,

FWIW- One of the things I did at the RTTC during tech was to check the tire treadwear ratings...and to my surprise most cars had 300 or greater treadwear ratings. A very few were at or close to the 200 treadwear limit and I remember 3 cars of the 40 had less than 200. One at 180 and two with 100's. We just put the exhibition "E" on those cars.

It was refreshing that most folks just went out there to have a good time and did not get to wound up about the rules...I personally learned something from those folks. Hopefully I won't forget it to quickly.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

Mine was on 320 TW because the Nittos didn't make it in time. The tires on the other car are 180's.