It's been awhile since Toyota has been mentioned....

[absintheisfun]

It seems that Toyota dug their own grave, and are now pulling the dirt over themselves.

I have heard the argument that they are being "unfairly judged" by a goverment that owns an American company and can therefore not be impartial, but damn if Toyota makes it easy to hate them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_hi_te/us_toyota_black_boxes

[ZZ430]

In the other thread I posted something like "I wonder what they will say when the "fixed" cars do the same thing?"

It has come to pass. There have been at least 10 reports of sudden acceleration by the cars that have had the recalls done.

[dadto2jays]

they will still remain :1st:

[fordsbyjay]

It looks to me that they are getting what they deserve.

[MonzaRacer]

Bet you find the techs doing the recall are either not doing it right or doing their own fix

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

I have heard the argument about unfair treatment of Toyota also, and think that argument is a bunch of B.S..... They are being racked over the coals by their own actions, They intentionally decieved the Safety board, and performed repairs that they knew didnt fix the problem at all... Not to mention the fact that they have know about it for years and the deaths involved, but decided to blow smoke and not lift a finger to attempt to fix the problem.

There are internal documents that have come to light, that state how they decieved the transportation board, and the amount of money they saved the company.. Still to this day, they are performing repairs that are not fixing the problem because they have not done the necessary research.. They got caught with their pants down #$%@%#$ the customer and their safety.

[chufham]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[sniper]

This should seperate the BS from everything else.

LOS ANGELES — Solve the unintended acceleration problem, win $1 million.

Edmunds.com, the auto information and pricing company, is launching a public competition to find a cause and solution to the dilemma that has allegedly caused dozens of auto accident deaths and devastated the reputation of the Toyota Motor Corp.

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/automotive/view/20100303edmundscom_offers_1_million_prize_for_solv ing_unintended_acceleration_problem/srvc=home&position=also

Why has no one been able to diagnose this problem? Toyota or otherwise? I am leaning towards you cannot diagnose a driver's error.

[absintheisfun]

Well, yet another reason to be sick of toyota...

I guess they have appologized enough--it's back to money now.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-moves-past-apologies-apf-2320770575.html?x=0

[sniper]

What would you have them do?

You probably don't give a darn anyway, as most people don't. You are either in the alrady hated toyota or already liked them.

[absintheisfun]

What would you have them do?

You probably don't give a darn anyway, as most people don't. You are either in the alrady hated toyota or already liked them.

I actually own a Toyota, and think that they are now suffering what GM (or any large company for that matter) suffered in the past....

They got WAY to big for their britches, and are now suffering from their greed. They had their eyes on the big picture and bottom line, but forgot about the details and the little things that keep the big picture moving.

Now, will I ever own another one? I don't know. It all depends on how they handle their problems in the here and now. So far, they are getting a big fat "F." They are being exposed for some seriously dirty buisness, and don't appear to be the least bit remorseful.

[sniper]

I actually own a Toyota, and think that they are now suffering what GM (or any large company for that matter) suffered in the past....

They got WAY to big for their britches, and are now suffering from their greed. They had their eyes on the big picture and bottom line, but forgot about the details and the little things that keep the big picture moving.

Now, will I ever own another one? I don't know. It all depends on how they handle their problems in the here and now. So far, they are getting a big fat "F." They are being exposed for some seriously dirty buisness, and don't appear to be the least bit remorseful.

It's funny that you are all up in arms about "how they are conducting business", yet you, yourself are not completly against buying another. What's up with that? The besdt way for you to show your dissatisfaction is to not buy a new product of theirs.

On soapbox!

And I MUST address the "greed" comment. I am sick and F'n tired of hearing that line of ill-logic. A business is in business to make MONEY! And as much of it as possible, Bottom line. That is what the owners want, and that is what the shareholders want. For Toyoda, his way of making money is building cars. Yours maybe making widgets. It doesn't matter what "it" is. The purpose of making or selling whatever it is you do, is to make money.
People decide wether or not what it is you offer is worth anything and how much it may or may not be worth by paying a price for it. A company for the most part does not put a ceiling on it's potential, why would they do that?

Off soapbox!

[69Pony]

The wife is in the market for a new vehicle. We've narrowed it down to either a Toyota or another Honda. We went and looked at Ford, Chevy and Hyundai but other than the Santa Fe there was nothing interesting offered by them. Gotta tell ya Ford and Chevy have some of the ugliest vehicles around - interior and exterior.

I think even with the issues Toyota is having we will probaby buy from them. They are offering great pricing and financing right now and even with their issues I trust them so much more than the US brands. Maybe the Honda but the wife wants a bigger vehicle than the CRV and thinks the Pilot is a little too big.

When it's all said and done, you have to go with previous experiences. So far all mine with Toyota and Honda have been great and with Chevy / Ford - well not so much....

[68nate]

And I MUST address the "greed" comment. I am sick and F'n tired of hearing that line of ill-logic. A business is in business to make MONEY! And as much of it as possible, Bottom line. That is what the owners want, and that is what the shareholders want. For Toyoda, his way of making money is building cars. Yours maybe making widgets. It doesn't matter what "it" is. The purpose of making or selling whatever it is you do, is to make money.


Your statement IS the definition of greed in business. Any business that operates as you suggest WILL fail. A business is in business to make a product that everyone wants or needs, or provide a service that everyone wants or needs, and be compensated fairly for it. When a business is in business to "make as much money as possible, bottom line" that is GREED. Judging by the current state of our economy, You are not the only person who thinks that is how a business is supposed to operate.

[fordsbyjay]

I am leaning towards you cannot diagnose a driver's error.

This has to be my favorite one right there. They have hundreds of actual crashes, 911 calls etc of people doing 100 mph down the highway with both feet pushing on the brake pedal and they can't stop their "toyota" death machine and yet you have the nerve to call it "drivers error". I guess if that was your wife or daughter in one of those accidents you would have a total different opinion. I used to think that Toyota made a quality product even though I have never owned one but the fact they knew they had such a serious problem and chose to hide instead of fix it they will get no respect from me now.


What would you have them do?
Make vehicles that don't kill people?? What a crazy idea.

Everybody has recalls and how you handle it is what truly shows what type of company you are.

[sniper]

Your statement IS the definition of greed in business. Any business that operates as you suggest WILL fail. A business is in business to make a product that everyone wants or needs, or provide a service that everyone wants or needs, and be compensated fairly for it. When a business is in business to "make as much money as possible, bottom line" that is GREED. Judging by the current state of our economy, You are not the only person who thinks that is how a business is supposed to operate.

You have it completly backwards.
If I make a product and nobody wants it. How much should I sell it for?
Whereas, if I make a product that I cannot keep in stock, how should I price that?

Let me break it down for you. A person comes up with an idea for a product. That person or persons, build said product, hoping that it sells. So they then employ people to build the product, market it and transport it to where ever.
See, in having a product that people want, A company creates JOBS, creates WEALTH, and provides families with opportunites not afforded elsewhere.

Finally, as a stockholder, I DEMAND that the company I invested in makes as much money as possible so that "MY" returns are maximized. It's called C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-M. The consumers of a product will always dictate price. If your product is priced to high, few will buy it, if the product is priced to low, you won't keep up with demand. It's finding the happy median that is the tricky part.



Make vehicles that don't kill people?? What a crazy idea.

Everybody has recalls and how you handle it is what truly shows what type of company you are.

"HUNDREDS" of 911 calls? Seriously, where are these so called 911 calls? If know where to find them, I'd be interested in hearing them. Remember hundreds, not just one or two.

As for your last comment or two. Here's a crazy idea, use common sense when reading, and if you are going to quote someone, you must first read, follow and understand the dialogue.
I was talking about absintheisfun's comments about wanting Toyota to keep on apologizing more. If you didn't accpet the first, second or thirty-ith apology, doing so a hundred more times will mean nothing as well.

[WS6]

Your statement IS the definition of greed in business. Any business that operates as you suggest WILL fail. A business is in business to make a product that everyone wants or needs, or provide a service that everyone wants or needs, and be compensated fairly for it. When a business is in business to "make as much money as possible, bottom line" that is GREED. Judging by the current state of our economy, You are not the only person who thinks that is how a business is supposed to operate.

Define greed. Define fair. Then tell me why your definition should be considered more correct than mine. I can promise you, my definition of greed will not match yours. My definition of fair will not match yours either. So who's correct?

I don't consider Toyota greedy nor do I consider it fair for anyone to put a limit on what a company can sell a product for or how much money they can make. Your methodology has failed and brought countries to their knees or prevented them from ever becoming anything great. Just look at any country in Europe and Russia. What you're suggesting fits under the categories such as fascism, socialism, and communism. Give me just one example of any country that has succeeded on any level close to what this country has operating under your premises.

[Jim Nilsen]

True capitalism will stifle greed by actually allowing another company that can do it for less to shine in the market. That is fair.

This is where the world of being allowed to do that has been removed with restrictions and laws that won't let the competition even in the picture. This has led to companies fleeing to other countries and making the copies where those restrictions ,permits and laws don't exist.

China is not a capitalistic country but it sure has a lot of capitalist competing in a very greedy/survivalistic way if you consider there is no restrictions in trade to keep the jobs here in America.

When you lose your job to your company going to China or Mexico or anywhere else there are no restrictions will most see what the greed/survival has done first hand.

Yes trying to make the most money is the right thing to do but is putting America out of production going to be worth it?

The two value system that makes it ok to do both is killing the american worker.

It won't matter much longer when most of us in the states don't have jobs to buy any products. But hey, the greedy companies will have all of the money they need and already be out of the country and safe so we can't get to them.

Selling out is not a crime in the law books right along with greed but it is a dead end for jobs and profits in any company and why most are sold to a bigger company who usually fails because of debt they cannot support. It's a viscious greedy cycle that gets the greedy in the end at the cost of freedom and capitalism.

I for one will not buy a new car now for anything and probably will never be able to afford to again. I fortunately and unfortunately supported both GM and Toyota when I bought my Vibe and am I ever glad I bought the 04 instead of the 05.

If I have to move to a foreign country to get a job someday in production I will know then I am right.Until then I keep hoping America will start to stop supporting the companies in foreign countries and bring back the jobs.

One last point, when a company goes to another country we need to take away the owners citizenship because they obvoiusly don't want to be American anymore.

[68nate]

Define greed. Define fair. Then tell me why your definition should be considered more correct than mine. I can promise you, my definition of greed will not match yours. My definition of fair will not match yours either. So who's correct?

I don't consider Toyota greedy nor do I consider it fair for anyone to put a limit on what a company can sell a product for or how much money they can make. Your methodology has failed and brought countries to their knees or prevented them from ever becoming anything great. Just look at any country in Europe and Russia. What you're suggesting fits under the categories such as fascism, socialism, and communism. Give me just one example of any country that has succeeded on any level close to what this country has operating under your premises.

"fair compensation" is defined by the consumer and the competition. I never suggested that a business should be limited to how much money it can make. Read it again. I disagree with the statement that a "business is in business to make as much money as possible, BOTTOM LINE". At what cost? The quality of the product? American workers jobs? The consumers safety? National security?

I'm all for Capitalism- when it used to be Capitalism. I wouldn't call trillions of dollars in debt, CAUSED BY GREED, That you and I and our grandkids will pay for the rest of our lives a great "success". Hopefully China doesn't demand we pay up on our IOU's, with something other than worthless paper, anytime soon.

I love this country, but what a viscious circle we've fallen in to.

[sniper]

True capitalism will stifle greed by actually allowing another company that can do it for less to shine in the market. That is fair.

This is where the world of being allowed to do that has been removed with restrictions and laws that won't let the competition even in the picture. This has led to companies fleeing to other countries and making the copies where those restrictions ,permits and laws don't exist.

China is not a capitalistic country but it sure has a lot of capitalist competing in a very greedy/survivalistic way if you consider there is no restrictions in trade to keep the jobs here in America.

When you lose your job to your company going to China or Mexico or anywhere else there are no restrictions will most see what the greed/survival has done first hand.

Yes trying to make the most money is the right thing to do but is putting America out of production going to be worth it?

The two value system that makes it ok to do both is killing the american worker.

It won't matter much longer when most of us in the states don't have jobs to buy any products. But hey, the greedy companies will have all of the money they need and already be out of the country and safe so we can't get to them.

Selling out is not a crime in the law books right along with greed but it is a dead end for jobs and profits in any company and why most are sold to a bigger company who usually fails because of debt they cannot support. It's a viscious greedy cycle that gets the greedy in the end at the cost of freedom and capitalism.

I for one will not buy a new car now for anything and probably will never be able to afford to again. I fortunately and unfortunately supported both GM and Toyota when I bought my Vibe and am I ever glad I bought the 04 instead of the 05.

If I have to move to a foreign country to get a job someday in production I will know then I am right.Until then I keep hoping America will start to stop supporting the companies in foreign countries and bring back the jobs.

One last point, when a company goes to another country we need to take away the owners citizenship because they obvoiusly don't want to be American anymore.

And here is the sticky situation. I believe that the concept of free trade has been sorely misguided by our current and recent previous administrations. I am a believer that "free trade" was and is a concept between states.
A lot of these companies are moving out of this country for what reason? I think we can all agree that it's labor cost and the high cost of manufacturing here in the US, because of regulations (wether you agree with the regulations is moot) and taxes.

Now if this were still a capitalist nation. And we still we married to the founding fathers intent of STATES rights. We would have a "Nation of States" and not one gigantic state as we do now.
So with that basic understanding, if states still held the Constitutional rights to regulate itself, govern itself without the feeding trough of the Fed, these States would be battling for these companies and their production facillities and headquarters within the borders of the USA, instead of overseas.

If we had a Nation of states, companied would have 50 options for relocation. 50 options for taxation. 50 options to set in bedrock the foundation of their company.

If you want to see capitalsim work, allow states to duke it out. We would see wholesale change in the way people live, educate, work and play.


"fair compensation" is defined by the consumer and the competition. I never suggested that a business should be limited to how much money it can make. Read it again. I disagree with the statement that a "business is in business to make as much money as possible, BOTTOM LINE". At what cost? The quality of the product? American workers jobs? The consumers safety? National security?
You are muddying the conversation by combining various components of a successful company and those companies that don't give a damn about it's products.


I'm all for Capitalism- when it used to be Capitalism. I wouldn't call trillions of dollars in debt, CAUSED BY GREED, That you and I and our grandkids will pay for the rest of our lives a great "success". Hopefully China doesn't demand we pay up on our IOU's, with something other than worthless paper, anytime soon.

I love this country, but what a viscious circle we've fallen in to.

What are you talking about? There is nothing about government deb that has anything to do with capitalism. Any company taking government cash is no longer operating in the capitalism ideaology. It's a component of marxism.

It wasn't Greed who forced the federal government to payout HUGE sums of cash. That was solely a decision by our elected officials with ties to the companies that it gave away our money. Those companies did nothing that million sof americans do everyday. COLLECT WELFARE. That is a moral issue and not a "greed" issue by those that accept welfare.

[fordsbyjay]

Sniper you crack me up. Your willingness to ignore the simple fact that Crapota has been cranking out death machines from some time now and fully new about it is crazy. Maybe you should go be a spokesperson for Killmyfamilyota.

BTW, check out the news this morning, there was ANOTHER Crapota doing 94 down the freeway escorted by the police BECAUSE HE CALLED 911. I guess it is probably all a big hoax anyways, right??

[sniper]

Sniper you crack me up. Your willingness to ignore the simple fact that Crapota has been cranking out death machines from some time now and fully new about it is crazy. Maybe you should go be a spokesperson for Killmyfamilyota.

BTW, check out the news this morning, there was ANOTHER Crapota doing 94 down the freeway escorted by the police BECAUSE HE CALLED 911. I guess it is probably all a big hoax anyways, right??

The absurdness is that someone can call 911 while in a freaking out, but they cannot think to put the damn car in neetral or turn off the ignition. There is ZERO excuse now, as everyone and their damn brother knows about this issue. If that were to happen to me, when the car came to a stop, I'd call Toyota directly and have Corporate come pick the thing up off the highway.

I don't know the details of what you are talking about this morning, but I would not put it out of reach for someone to try and game the system for a lawsuit. Ya know, cause that never happens.

Please again, I ask besides the police officer and his family that was killed waht are all these other deaths you keep talking about?

Another thing, I haven't seen where this has happened anywhere but in the US. Is this the case?

[Taman]

I call it greed when Toyota praises the fact that tae company saved $100M by limiting the scope of a recall. How many Billions did they make that year. It just proves their safety and quality line is just crap. The dollar comes first. So now a guy last night in California has a non recalled Prius gas pedal stick. Go ahead and buy a Toyota. I don't care what great deal they had, I wouldn't buy one. Honda either. Read the reviews on service issues. I thought that the only product sold in America ,that if you used as directed, killed you was tobacco. I guess I was wrong.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Toyota has been linked to 30 deaths with this problem. The incident this morning seems a bit hokey to me also, he spent alot of time trying to stop the car by standing on the brake and applying the emergency brake and calling 911.. Wouldnt it make sense to turn the ignition off or put in neutral? I dont believe there are any failsafes keeping you from being able to do that.. I may also be thinking this guy wants to jump on the band wagon, and what better way than 911 and media reporting to put him right on top of the settlement game.

Now to the fact toyota knowingly ingored and mislead about their issue.. That is PURE GREED.. I do understand the bottom line, but not only did they put some people at risk, they tarnished their good name. With every big corporation, there is a formula for liability versus cost of solution and remedy.. Apparently toyota made a decision to roll the dice on this one.. The problem with that is, when you get caught, now the public scare and other factors are going to play in record settlements. They crapped out on this one.... ha ha

Toytoa could have handled this quietly and avoided alot of the fake reports and suits, but Bottom Line Greed made the decision for them. Call it what you want, but it is calculated greed and is accepted in the business world. Every corporation is willing to put people at risk when it comes to quality and safety, unless it will ruin their image in the long run that would affect the profitibility of their corporation. We live with this everyday, and that is what helps keep the legal system moving.

There will be alot of people trying to make claims because it is reported that Toyota doesnt know what the problem is and it may be a programming problem, that left the door wide open to scam artist and opportunist.

[Jim Nilsen]

Sniper you crack me up. Your willingness to ignore the simple fact that Crapota has been cranking out death machines from some time now and fully new about it is crazy. Maybe you should go be a spokesperson for Killmyfamilyota.

BTW, check out the news this morning, there was ANOTHER Crapota doing 94 down the freeway escorted by the police BECAUSE HE CALLED 911. I guess it is probably all a big hoax anyways, right??

What is bothering me about the thing you are saying is that you think he is in favor of Toyota instead of just defending good ole free marketing like it should be and bashing the media for mis info. But he will have to speak for himself on your reply.

The real reason for my comment here is that what in the world has aspired from all of this when 911 operators have not been instructed on how to help drivers disable these cars? that driver could have died and killed others waiting for the officer to get there.The media has done a really good job talking about everything else but how to disable these run away cars. The media also has a lot of opinions and seem to have jaded facts from one source to another. Did you get to hear how the officer got the guy to stop his car? Did the 911 operator actually help in the situation other than getting an officer there? Did the owner of the car actually remember all of the events leading to the incident and is tested to be sure they are competent to do so? We are all being divide by the media over this, yet we are all mostly wanting the same outcome and believe there is something drastically wrong with what is going on. We have to find some common ground to be united and get somewhere instead of fighting about he said she said stuff. If everytime I was to read an article about this and it included information on what to do in case it happened I would think that someone really cared about the consumer. Has Toyota had one add explaining what to do? and how many times have they ran it if it exist? A commercial with show and tell type communication should exist by now but it doesn't.

If you really want to blame something that caused most of this, blame complacency at all levels and the desire to have someone else in control to blame instead of ourselves.

It has always been clear to me ever since the first machine operator broke a machine I had to fix and blamed it on the mechanics for not doing their job to make it so it wouldn't break. You can't trust most people to ever know what really went wrong or be able to explain it without blame. So we have been getting a lot of mis-information to try and solve the problem. Blame never solved a problem but it sure does relieve the guilt for some if they pull it off even if they blame the wrong thing or person.Confusion is just what marketers want to be able to survive this and they are getting it with every opinion.

I really think that the problem is impossible to fix unless they either throw away the ECU's or reprogram them, both of which is going to take a program that stops the problem and not cause another one.It can also be from electro magnetic interference EMI that is only there for the moment it takes to signal the computer to do what it does and you will never be able to prove it because it is hard to repeat all of the sequence of events which are now becoming more than one in a million chances but still close to one in 100,000.

When your car locks the doors based on what the engine and speed are vs just locking the doors because you want it to and then you still get non running cars in park with the windows rolled up and the keys in the igniton locking people out at the gas station, there is a programming problem and an idiot who configured it along with a consumer that really thought it was safer and thought they needed to have the car lock the doors instead of their own lazy asses. anomolies like these are what is causing the problems.

We have asked for none of the conveniences that have plagued us yet we can't stop buying them because the marketing people have most sold on them with 2 sided lingo to make the world safer.

Imagine if you will a day when everyone who is in a car gets locked in and the car takes off, the steering doesn't work along with the brakes doing nothing and it was all contolled by ONSTAR so you could be killed because you are deemed a threat to the world. Just a thought to ponder as we have a car controlled by the computer output instead of the driver input linked to a satellite. Big brother is watching and laughing as we argue over who is to blame for the poor control over things until he has us all there at once.

Try to make the world idiot proof and the world will just make a dumber/smarter and more determined idiot.

It's time for some new car companies to emerge if the government reglations will allow the new competition like they say they do.

[sniper]

I don't think Toyota has actually found any problems with these cars. That is why they are fixing so many things. Mats, ECU's, pedals. I don't think they have been able to replicate the problem and I suspect they won't be able to.

Really? 30 people have dies from sticking Toyota gas pedals. That is the first I've heard of that. I suppose I shall go looking for that information.

It's time for some new car companies to emerge if the government reglations will allow the new competition like they say they do.

Hyundai?:drive:

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

I don't think Toyota has actually found any problems with these cars. That is why they are fixing so many things. Mats, ECU's, pedals. I don't think they have been able to replicate the problem and I suspect they won't be able to.

Really? 30 people have dies from sticking Toyota gas pedals. That is the first I've heard of that. I suppose I shall go looking for that information.


Hyundai?:drive:

I hate this NO EDIT thing here...

Yes Really..... According to FOX News Reports they said atleast 30 deaths have been linked to these problems in various Toyota since 2000... I am just relaying what was being reported...

[Damn True]

Your statement IS the definition of greed in business. Any business that operates as you suggest WILL fail. A business is in business to make a product that everyone wants or needs, or provide a service that everyone wants or needs, and be compensated fairly for it. When a business is in business to "make as much money as possible, bottom line" that is GREED. Judging by the current state of our economy, You are not the only person who thinks that is how a business is supposed to operate.

Ever get a job from someone who wasn't in it for profit?

[Damn True]

I hate this NO EDIT thing here...

Yes Really..... According to FOX News Reports they said atleast 30 deaths have been linked to these problems in various Toyota since 2000... I am just relaying what was being reported...

I've not heard a figure remotely close to that.

Bring the tech.

[Jim Nilsen]

I hate this NO EDIT thing here...

Yes Really..... According to FOX News Reports they said atleast 30 deaths have been linked to these problems in various Toyota since 2000... I am just relaying what was being reported...

You can edit your own post but not others and when you can edit my post I'm out of here.

Fox news ,lol. you are just repeating the worst of the worst for good info.Think for yourself and you will do much better. You are smarter than that,I know it.

I do know Sniper needs to rephrase a few of his comments to be more clear but I do get the point he is making from them. When he says they haven't found one problem with things I do believe he meant to say that they haven't found one real known exact solution.But I could be wrong?

There is a million dollar reward for the first person to prove what the problem is. My problem to prove it is I don't have acces to a Toyota equipped with the possible problem but I suspect that the one who can prove what it is will be immediately richer than a million dollars and be real quiet all of a sudden with an I made an error when doing my test apology. But I hope that it doesn't happen that way.

Let's not fight over it because it really is not going to get solved by pointing fingers at each other, you have to point to the real problem.

Fox News:lmao:

[John Wright]

Really? 30 people have dies from sticking Toyota gas pedals. That is the first I've heard of that. I suppose I shall go looking for that information.



Sudden unintended acceleration has allegedly been the cause of 56 fatal accidents involving Toyotas in the U.S., going back as far as 2004

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-chp9-2010mar09,0,3699926.story?track=rss

[The Rook]

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-chp9-2010mar09,0,3699926.story?track=rss


Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't believe it either!!!

[fordsbyjay]

They played his 911 call on the news this morning and he said he was pushing the button to shut the car off and nothing was happening. I buy American so I am not familiar with Toyota's starting method but from what I understand it is simply a push button to start and stop some models. Maybe Sniper could elaborate being a big Toyota fan I am sure he is more familiar with the different models etc.

There was another Prius in NY yesterday that took off and went crashing into a wall. What I don't understand is what happens to the brakes when all this happens. I honestly can't believe that a Prius has enough power to over power the brakes. If they can then their brakes are actually worse than their cars. LOL.

I will say this though, everybody can be an armchair critic and everyone has 20-20 hindsight but when you are in panic mode people don't always think of every possible solution.

[ZuperZport]

There was another Prius in NY yesterday that took off and went crashing into a wall.


The NY Prius crash was about a mile from my house. The "stonehenge-style" wall she hit was all messed up. Here is the article link:

http://www.lohud.com/article/20103100340

I ask the question many here have asked. "Why don't these drivers place the car into neutral or just shut the car off?"

Isn't it that easy to avoid a catastrophe? :hammer:

[sniper]

They played his 911 call on the news this morning and he said he was pushing the button to shut the car off and nothing was happening. I buy American so I am not familiar with Toyota's starting method but from what I understand it is simply a push button to start and stop some models. Maybe Sniper could elaborate being a big Toyota fan I am sure he is more familiar with the different models etc.
Come out of the dark ages and learn something new.

There was another Prius in NY yesterday that took off and went crashing into a wall. What I don't understand is what happens to the brakes when all this happens. I honestly can't believe that a Prius has enough power to over power the brakes. If they can then their brakes are actually worse than their cars. LOL.
Precisely. Name a car besides your falcon, with a single brake line master, that cannot bring it's car to a stop even at great distances and while the motor is accelerating. Would the hydraulic brakes not have more stopping power than the motor has torque? Maybe it's different with electric motors. Don't know.

I will say this though, everybody can be an armchair critic and everyone has 20-20 hindsight but when you are in panic mode people don't always think of every possible solution.



And yet they can find the time to call 9-11.



Are you being an armchair quarterback by denouncing Toyota for problems which you don't factually know exist?

[John Wright]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/StuckEconomy-1.jpg

[formula]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[John Wright]

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/company-news/toyota-to-expand-tundra-recall-over-rust-issues/19391110/



urged owners to remove the spare tire from the frame, concerned it could fall onto the road and create a road hazard.


What's next?....man it gets worst with each passing day.

[trapin]

Try to make the world idiot proof and the world will just make a dumber/smarter and more determined idiot.
LMAO!!! I love that. I'm officially stealing that one Jim.

[Norm Peterson]

There was another Prius in NY yesterday that took off and went crashing into a wall. What I don't understand is what happens to the brakes when all this happens. I honestly can't believe that a Prius has enough power to over power the brakes. If they can then their brakes are actually worse than their cars. LOL.
At issue in the hybrid incidents is the way that regenerative braking (which is used to recharge the battery initially/under light braking) switches over to normal braking via (eventually) hydraulics. You probably can't completely write operator error out of the picture, but people do tend to panic when the brakes behave in any unexpected fashion.


Norm

[sniper]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

:lmao:



Did someone say idiot?

From an article:

"Neibert told Sikes after the CHP caught up with him to shift to neutral but the driver shook his head no.
Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius;_ylt=ApGck_2H42zcSkwKTwzpV7COe8UF ;_ylu=X3oDMTM1Nm5oM2ozBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzEwL3Vz X3J1bmF3YXlfcHJpdXMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3Bvcw M1BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDcnVuYXdh eXByaXVz

[wmhjr]

Fox news ,lol. you are just repeating the worst of the worst for good info.Think for yourself and you will do much better. You are smarter than that,I know it.


And exactly what news do YOU trust, Jim? I sure don't completely trust Fox. But I don't at ALL trust NBC, CBS, or ABC. I'd call them the "best of the worst". They're all bad. I think Fox is the least bad.

[Norm Peterson]

Precisely. Name a car <snip> that cannot bring it's car to a stop even at great distances and while the motor is accelerating. Would the hydraulic brakes not have more stopping power than the motor has torque? Maybe it's different with electric motors. Don't know.
When the engine goes to WOT, vacuum drops off to a negligible level, and with that goes the ability of the car to re-supply (re-evacuate?) the brake booster vacuum chambers. With four wheel disc brakes, there is no mechanical self-servo action to assist the driver. It's fairly common for people to pump the brakes when they behave in some unexpected fashion, and in this particular situation the main thing the driver accomplishes by doing this is to throw away the only help that he has available.

What we probably need to know is

How much pedal force is required to bring these vehicles to a stop in a reasonable distance assuming no assist whatsoever.

Is the typical driver physically capable of exerting this much force, and - perhaps even more importantly - is he/she aware that the effort required will be MUCH more than they are accustomed to using?


Norm

[wmhjr]

Seems to me that there is now sufficient evidence that there's a real technical problem. It's a Toyota design, even sub-components are to their spec, they own the QA process, so it's there problem. Over the long haul I have been and continue to be somebody who has been impressed by Toyota. But not here.

The whole "Keyless" system really complicates this. That doesn't make the keyless systems bad (I sure love mine!) but it makes the problem harder to deal with when it happens.

One other note about this. Did anybody else listen today to the 911 call of yesterdays incident? If so, did you ask yourself why in the world that guys is allowed to be behind the wheel of a car on a public road? I fully recognize that there is stress involved and don't expect perfect responses. But, that guy was scared crapless and was completely unable to be rational whatsoever. Total panic with no evidence of intelligence. I don't care what kind of motor vehicle he was in. He should not be behind the wheel.

[Norm Peterson]

I ask the question many here have asked. "Why don't these drivers place the car into neutral or just shut the car off?"

Isn't it that easy to avoid a catastrophe? :hammer:
It most probably IS that easy.

But for most exclusively AT drivers, the only interaction with the transmission is to wiggle the lever variously between 'P', 'D', and once in a while 'R' to go, back up, or when you get to where you're going and shut the car down. Using 'Neutral' is not going to be something that will immediately occur, as just the concept of 'N' is somewhat alien to most AT driving. 'N' is just a spot that you have to 'click' through to get the car to do what you're really after it to do.

Even among near-exclusively manual transmission drivers, I'd bet that stepping on the clutch would be thought of ahead of finding the neutral gate.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

One other note about this. Did anybody else listen today to the 911 call of yesterdays incident? If so, did you ask yourself why in the world that guys is allowed to be behind the wheel of a car on a public road? I fully recognize that there is stress involved and don't expect perfect responses. But, that guy was scared crapless and was completely unable to be rational whatsoever. Total panic with no evidence of intelligence. I don't care what kind of motor vehicle he was in. He should not be behind the wheel.
It's entirely possible that he 'tested' fine with whatever DMV.

Presence of mind while under extreme stress is another matter entirely.


Norm

[John Wright]

But for most exclusively AT drivers, the only interaction with the transmission is to wiggle the lever variously between 'P', 'D', and once in a while 'R' to go, back up, or when you get to where you're going and shut the car down. Using 'Neutral' is not going to be something that will immediately occur, as just the concept of 'N' is somewhat alien to most AT driving. 'N' is just a spot that you have to 'click' through to get the car to do what you're really after it to do.



Another thought along those lines that occured to me was that these folks will have both feet planted firmly on the brake pedal, and it will be very possible to slip right by that little "N" indention and into that ugly "R" gear which might not be in the best interest of the driver who has a gas pedal in the WOT position.

[Damn True]

When the engine goes to WOT, vacuum drops off to a negligible level, and with that goes the ability of the car to re-supply (re-evacuate?) the brake booster vacuum chambers. With four wheel disc brakes, there is no mechanical self-servo action to assist the driver. It's fairly common for people to pump the brakes when they behave in some unexpected fashion, and in this particular situation the main thing the driver accomplishes by doing this is to throw away the only help that he has available.

What we probably need to know is

How much pedal force is required to bring these vehicles to a stop in a reasonable distance assuming no assist whatsoever.

Is the typical driver physically capable of exerting this much force, and - perhaps even more importantly - is he/she aware that the effort required will be MUCH more than they are accustomed to using?


Norm

In all of my vehicles it is possible, in fact I'd say easy to stop the car at WOT.

Toyota 4-runner
Toyota Corolla
Subaru Outback

[Norm Peterson]

I'm not even sure that we here as a group can fully understand how people who are neither mechanically inclined nor particularly interested in their car or even in driving could become so flustered and helpless in a situation like this.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

In all of my vehicles it is possible, in fact I'd say easy to stop the car at WOT.

Toyota 4-runner
Toyota Corolla
Subaru Outback
Can't tell, but would that be (1) WOT, (2) AT, and (3) in 'D' in all cases?

Not trying to argue, just trying to see how well your situation lines up with "Joe/Jane Average's". (That still leaves those little matters of mechanical knowledge and actual interest in driving to get past)


Norm

[John Wright]

I remember having an anxious moment in a 68 Impala that had a broken motor mount. Finding the "N" on that column shift while trying to guide that car around through a busy intersection with the rear tires smoking wasn't easy and I finally realized that I had to take one of my very busy hands and turn the key switch off.

The motor died down just a little and a quick rap of the pedal to catch the motor back up set off this little small block into a rage when that mechanical linkage was yanked WOT.

I look back and can laugh at doing doughnuts in a busy intersection without hitting a single vehicle, but it wasn't quite so funny at the time.


I do see how quickly the panic can set in and make a simple thought process evade you when you need it most.

[formula]

:lmao:



Did someone say idiot?

From an article:

"Neibert told Sikes after the CHP caught up with him to shift to neutral but the driver shook his head no.
Sikes told reporters he didn't go into neutral because he worried the car would flip."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/us_runaway_prius;_ylt=ApGck_2H42zcSkwKTwzpV7COe8UF ;_ylu=X3oDMTM1Nm5oM2ozBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzEwL3Vz X3J1bmF3YXlfcHJpdXMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3Bvcw M1BHBvcwM1BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDcnVuYXdh eXByaXVz


That's how physics works, isn't it?

Drive:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/2010toyotapriussilver-1.jpg
Neutral:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Taman]

Sniper, no factual data. What's Toyota paying you? How about the 3 more incidents in the last day. San Diego, New York and one yesterday near me in Palatine,IL. That guy even had a note on what to do if the pedal stuck. Didn't help. Nothing worked. So it's not a problem till it happens to you or your family? If I was in charge, Toyota would stop selling cars here until the problem was fixed and proven it's fixed. I just can't believe the stupid people still buying Toyota's by the increase in sales in the first week of March. The news showed that in the San Diego and Palatine accidents the pedals were on the floor. And the San Diego guy tried to pull the pedal off the floor and couldn't. Then he freaked out. Tell me you would be different if it happened to you.Yes you would have your head on straight, until nothing worked.

[Damn True]

Can't tell, but would that be (1) WOT, (2) AT, and (3) in 'D' in all cases?

Not trying to argue, just trying to see how well your situation lines up with "Joe/Jane Average's". (That still leaves those little matters of mechanical knowledge and actual interest in driving to get past)


Norm

Yes, yes and yes.

And FTR we are singing from the same sheet of music on driver ability. Most people with whom we share the road are "operating" a motor vehicle. They know little of, nor do they care to understand "driving".

That is not to say that there is nothing wrong with many Toyotas. IMO there is a huge problem with the FBW system and it's logic systems that allows the UA condition to occur.

People's inability to handle the situation is a completely separate issue and adding it to the mix neither advances the conversation nor absolves Toyota of their responsibility.

[sniper]

^^^Stop it your killing me.


I remember having an anxious moment in a 68 Impala that had a broken motor mount. Finding the "N" on that column shift while trying to guide that car around through a busy intersection with the rear tires smoking wasn't easy and I finally realized that I had to take one of my very busy hands and turn the key switch off.

I think that is why there is the reverse lock out feature. you don't have to hunt for anything on a modern auto from D to N.
Ever have a friend pop your car into neutral while your driving? Funny ****.

[Jim Nilsen]

And exactly what news do YOU trust, Jim? I sure don't completely trust Fox. But I don't at ALL trust NBC, CBS, or ABC. I'd call them the "best of the worst". They're all bad. I think Fox is the least bad.

The only news I have learned to trust over the years is the news you get from the eye witnesses and news footage from the now moment of the event. Then I take it for what I see and think for myself.

Years ago when Kennedy got shot I was old enough to remember and young enough to not have to go to school. I remember seeing so many people say what happened in front of them as eye witnesses and by the next day everything they said was never talked about again by most media and in the following days and months those people who spoke up were told they were wrong or in some cases came up dead.

When you see what happened in Katrina when it was live on tv you saw for yourself what the people were going thru and then it all seemed to get blurred and twisted until the blame was hidden and the fingers pointed at the ones they wanted to be scapegoats.

When the twin towers went down the now moment of events was much different as days went on. The eye witnesses that reported events that were happening around them who were in the buildings have a completely different scenario of what the timing of events was and what the planes looked like. The warnings that were given to leave building 7 that was never hit and the list goes on. the satellite footage that was only played several times to never be seen again.The list goes on about the coverup of the truth.

I take very little opinion as fact and take even less stock in what government investigations tell me.The fact that we have been lied to about so many things by the media and the way they twist fact with opinion and call it truth is the same as a government investigation to me.

Just take the things you know are facts that have not been manipulated and form your own opinion and you will have as much truth as you need to understand the rest of the lies as a coverup or the omition of information to try to cover up truth.

The daily news of what is currently happening is the hardest thing for anyone to coverup. The live footage of national news is the same situation. The one problem with both of them is when you get reporters who tell you opinion from the moment they report what is going on and they don't have a clue, those opinions become truth to some and from the very beginning it is blurred by stupidity and ignorance. Looking at the footage for yourself can bring a totally different scenario than what you hear sometimes.

When the weatherman can't even acurately tell you what is going on in the now moment it is pretty bad and news people are worse than weathermen.

So that is how I do it.

When Rockefeller was caught years ago thanking the media for helping to only report what they were told to report and cover up what the the big plan is it made me very aware of the medias involvment in all of the lies we are told everyday. But they can't stop eye witnesses and the now moment live footage to give you the truth.

I truly can't think of one news source that isn't tainted by opinion or lawyers trying to stop lawsuits that eventually doesn't have only part or all of the news tainted by the end of a week.

I spent 3 months watching the house and the senate everytime they were in session and the eye opening events and the way they ACT and they are ACTORS not representatives did their job was astounding. One day they get you to believe they are on your side and then another issue comes up and they are on the other side of the isle kissing ass. They are like pieces on a chess board being moved by someone much higher up than our president or courts and it becomes obvious after about one month if you have any memory of what is going on. Only a few outstanding representatives are consistent and honest and they are ignored and some even threatened by the house leaders to not talk about the information because it is classified info. We are being lied to and the closed door seesions should not be allowed. Any politition or government official who can't be recorded and the public informed should be removed. That wouldn't leave only a couple.

I'll stop now because it really starts to bring up the stress that I had before I got cancer and then it leads to the doctors and the medical industry and then the voting structure and then ........

If it wasn't for this place there would be no place to find any truth, unity, growth, freedom of expression, diversity, honesty, fun,loyalty, and the one thing called friendship that makes the world a better place. And most of all I wouldn't be able to talk to someone like you who is reasonable enough to know that we all have opinions based on belief systems and the information we are given and that with the whole truth those opinions and belief systems can changed for the betterment of all.

Thanks for asking and listening.

:cheers:

[Damn True]

This whole thing reminds me of a missive that Jeremy Clarkson wrote a year or two ago in TG mag. His main point was that people who drive bad cars are generally bad drivers.

Reason being that if someone is genuinely interested in the avocation of "driving" that interest will guide them to a car which allows them to do so in a way that rewards their effort.

Much the same way as someone who is passionate about say, playing guitar. This person is more likely to own a very good guitar as opposed to the person who "sorta plays" and owns a less expensive instrument that would be less rewarding to a true enthusiast.

People who don't care about driving buy cars that are mere appliances. The sad fact is that the overwhelming majority of our fellow motorists are in this group. They don't "enjoy" driving thus they don't buy "good" cars, but more importantly, since they have little interest in driving well they, like the guitarist that "sorta plays" put little effort into developing their skills.

[sniper]

Sniper, no factual data. What's Toyota paying you?
A billion dollars.
I did say factual data. Ask 10 people who watched a crime happen to identify the criminal, and you'll get ten different crimes. The fact is that a crime happened. The question is who dun it?

How about the 3 more incidents in the last day. San Diego, New York and one yesterday near me in Palatine,IL. That guy even had a note on what to do if the pedal stuck. Didn't help. Nothing worked. So it's not a problem till it happens to you or your family? If I was in charge, Toyota would stop selling cars here until the problem was fixed and proven it's fixed. I just can't believe the stupid people still buying Toyota's by the increase in sales in the first week of March. The news showed that in the San Diego and Palatine accidents the pedals were on the floor. And the San Diego guy tried to pull the pedal off the floor and couldn't. Then he freaked out. Tell me you would be different if it happened to you.Yes you would have your head on straight, until nothing worked.
I cannot disagree with the forced stop selling of the cars. Why not? Make Toyota accountable. Fine.

Now onto the reaching of the gas pedal. I call total and complete BS on that one. I urge any of you who own a modern car while sitting still and attempt to reach down and touch the pedal, let alone while driving, grasping it and pulling it upwards.
Those pedals sit too deep under the dash for anyone whithout gorilla arms to reach it.

Off to spend my earnings from Toyota.




People who don't care about driving buy cars that are mere appliances. The sad fact is that the overwhelming majority of our fellow motorists are in this group. They don't "enjoy" driving thus they don't buy "good" cars, but more importantly, since they have little interest in driving well they, like the guitarist that "sorta plays" put little effort into developing their skills.
I have to disagree with you. These people purchased "earth saving" vehicles. They are passionate about the earth. It's just the hassle of having to drive to their desired place that they hated cause of the damage they were doing to the planet. Problem solved. No more damage to the planet. But possibly dying to do so. That's passion!

[John Wright]

I think that is why there is the reverse lock out feature. you don't have to hunt for anything on a modern auto from D to N.

Normally...unless you already have the reverse lock out solenoid open by holding the brakes with both feet which would allow you to row back and forth through the whole range of selections until you hopefully end up with the desired gear shift position of "N".

[Norm Peterson]

These people purchased "earth saving" vehicles. They are passionate about the earth. It's just the hassle of having to drive to their desired place that they hated cause of the damage they were doing to the planet. Problem solved. No more damage to the planet. But possibly dying to do so. That's passion!
That still doesn't excuse them should they choose not to improve their driving skills. The driver of any given vehicle should learn to drive that vehicle well, which implies some improvement in skills as time goes by. One should not be content to be barely more than a passenger who happens to have a steering wheel in front of him.

It could be argued that better driving skills are more consistent with an environmental passion rather than less so.


Norm

[Taman]

Sniper, glad to hear that. At least someone besides the Lawyers are making money off of this. A billion dollars can buy a lot of used Toyota's. Bet there are a few for sale. I beg to differ. I tried and was able to reach the acc. pedal on my Mazda 3, Chrysler mini van and my Suburban with no problem but add an out of control car at 80 mph, who knows.
Earth saving vehicles? You are kidding right. There are more toxic materials in a hybrid car than a standard car. It takes more energy to produce all that technology. Lets not even talk about the batteries. It would be more ecologically sense to restore and drive an older vehicle. Less energy is spent restoring than building new. Even with the better gas mileage, old is better than new.

[Damn True]

That still doesn't excuse them should they choose not to improve their driving skills. The driver of any given vehicle should learn to drive that vehicle well, which implies some improvement in skills as time goes by. One should not be content to be barely more than a passenger who happens to have a steering wheel in front of him.

It could be argued that better driving skills are more consistent with an environmental passion rather than less so.


Norm

Pretty sure that Mark was being facetious.

[James OLC]

Sniper, no factual data. What's Toyota paying you? How about the 3 more incidents in the last day. San Diego, New York and one yesterday near me in Palatine,IL. That guy even had a note on what to do if the pedal stuck. Didn't help. Nothing worked. So it's not a problem till it happens to you or your family? If I was in charge, Toyota would stop selling cars here until the problem was fixed and proven it's fixed. I just can't believe the stupid people still buying Toyota's by the increase in sales in the first week of March. The news showed that in the San Diego and Palatine accidents the pedals were on the floor. And the San Diego guy tried to pull the pedal off the floor and couldn't. Then he freaked out. Tell me you would be different if it happened to you.Yes you would have your head on straight, until nothing worked.

How often do you find yourself in you daily driver econo-box with your foot planted, pedal to the floor? I can't remember the last time that I floored anything that wasn't on the track. I guess it could get back to the whole "people don't know how to drive any more" conversation (which is unfortunately far from the truth) but it seems a little (a) contrived or (b) deliberate at first glance. I mean let's use some common sense... if you are driving a Toyota right now and you know that there are issues with the accelerator pedal sticking in the model that you are driving or one like it... are you really going to floor it? really? Just for fun? See what happens? Just for kicks?

But not knowing enough about driving to know what Neutral does? Or not knowing how to shut your car off? Or not knowing that the E brake is good for more than just hill parking? These are the people that we are sharing the road with... regardless of what they are driving.

[sniper]

For those of you who cannot understand my questioning of the validity of this whole problem.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_toyota_recall_abc

"ABC has admitted to a misjudgment and swapped out the brief dashboard video in its report, which continues to be available online."


"Correspondent Brian Ross' "World News" report showed him driving a Toyota with Gilbert that was rigged to quickly accelerate. Even though he knew it was coming, Ross said the incident left him shaken, and he had a hard time getting the car to come to a stop."

"Briefly during the drive, ABC cut to a picture of a tachometer with the needle zooming forward. The impression was that the tachometer was documenting the ride Ross was taking. Instead, that picture was taken from a separate instance where a short-circuit was induced in a parked car."

"It was not like ABC was trying to alter the footage," she said. "There was no staging. There was no dramatization. It was an editing mistake."

They rigged the car to do what they wanted. How is that NOT faking a news story?

When the premise of a problem is determined before factual data is gathered, everything that follows is a lie.

[absintheisfun]

They rigged the car to do what they wanted. How is that NOT faking a news story?

When the premise of a problem is determined before factual data is gathered, everything that follows is a lie.

They rigged a car to show to people who might be in the situation how to better handle the situation.

The fact that they had a 2 second clip that was exaggurated sucks, but the point of the story (and vehicle rigging) is...

"IF THIS HAPPENS TO YOU, HERE IS HOW YOU DEAL WITH IT."

I agree that the problem is being artificially inflated. The number of complaints has gone through the roof since the media has grabbed ahold of it as "the story," but it doesn't change the fact that there is a problem beyond driver error and Toyota has mishandled it since the get-go.

Hiindsight is 20/20, and I think that after this is all said and done, even Toyota will admit that they should have handled it better.

[Norm Peterson]

"Correspondent Brian Ross' "World News" report showed him driving a Toyota with Gilbert that was rigged to quickly accelerate. Even though he knew it was coming, Ross said the incident left him shaken, and he had a hard time getting the car to come to a stop."

They rigged the car to do what they wanted. How is that NOT faking a news story?
With as little commentary concerning the journalism side of it all as I can manage . . .

Of course it was "rigged" to quickly accelerate. How else can you suggest that something like this is possible if you can't even find a way to make it happen? Note use of the word "possible". If you take the demonstration at face value, all that was demonstrated was that it COULD happen under circumstances comparable to what rigging the mechanism simulated. That, and a reasonable average-driver reaction to the situation afterward.

I'm avoiding words like "probable", "likely", or anything else that suggests that it's anything but a rather rare occurrence (conclusions that suggest those words are inserted by various means at the journalistic level, either by direct comment or by careful omission that lets the listener's imagination run pretty much without restriction).

More proper questions would involve the likelihood of both electrical faults happening in the same car, or why Toyota's detail approach to the DBW arrangement seems to be a little too tolerant of bad control signals.



When the premise of a problem is determined before factual data is gathered, everything that follows is a lie.
Not so strong, please.

It's a theory, not a known premise, and while it's certainly open to question, it's not a lie until it is specifically proven to be false. All we know at this point is that it could happen that way.


Norm

[Jim Nilsen]

For those of you who cannot understand my questioning of the validity of this whole problem.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_toyota_recall_abc

"ABC has admitted to a misjudgment and swapped out the brief dashboard video in its report, which continues to be available online."


"Correspondent Brian Ross' "World News" report showed him driving a Toyota with Gilbert that was rigged to quickly accelerate. Even though he knew it was coming, Ross said the incident left him shaken, and he had a hard time getting the car to come to a stop."

"Briefly during the drive, ABC cut to a picture of a tachometer with the needle zooming forward. The impression was that the tachometer was documenting the ride Ross was taking. Instead, that picture was taken from a separate instance where a short-circuit was induced in a parked car."

"It was not like ABC was trying to alter the footage," she said. "There was no staging. There was no dramatization. It was an editing mistake."

They rigged the car to do what they wanted. How is that NOT faking a news story?

When the premise of a problem is determined before factual data is gathered, everything that follows is a lie.

After reading that twisted bunch of crap I now know that this whole thing is going the direction of landing on the moon.

Not being able to film something because of someones immediate incapability to film it and them deciding that you have to show everyone something to make a point in history will always bring up fraud and deceit which whether right or wrong taints the whole subject and its merits.

For gods sake ,the big tv people don't have cameras that can take pictures of a dash while others are in the car? We have people here that have setups for the track that can do that.

This whole problem is proof of the deception and coverup that is going on and anyone who finds the problem will be ridiculed and defamed so Toyota and all of the people involved right down to the best marketing firms in the world will change the truth somehow and if we believe the government is smart enough to protect us we are all naive as to who let us get to this point to start with.

Crushing an economy and taking over the media/propaganda are the 2 biggest forms of warfare against the people of any country to make them divided from the truth. The plan seems to be working as it is dividing some of us and we are supposed to be intelligent car guys. The US and Japanese car markets are the strongest providers of the free world economy and both are being crushed right now. It's no mystery to me as to why Toyota was next in line for the bombshell dropped on them. Next is our food supply and they have had some practice on that lately too.

I am going racing and if they think I care about it anymore they can run in front of me and find out how my intended acceleration and lack of braking along with the power of my steering to not avoid missing them will of coarse be a malfuntion they won't be able to explain with their logical means of coverups. The media needs to get honest to the people and change their ways or they are next in line to find out they are slaves to the people who own them and not paid by the ones who they inform thus eliminating the ones who believe in freedom.

Now about rigging a ground problem to show the cause? Go to the electrical section and you will find that ground problems do many things that are unexplainable and hard to duplicate or find.

[James OLC]

This whole (ABC) thing reminds me of the Family Guy episode where Quadmire crashes the plane...

link... http://www.snotr.com/video/388

And whether or not the 'intent' of the demonstration was to show what could happen and how to deal with it (regardless of cause) - the apparent fact (contradiction there, since there is no definative proof) of the matter is that the cars are not suddenly accelerating with engine RPM jumping thousands of RPM as the engine suddenly goes to WOT. When your gas pedal sticks (which seems to be the only, albeit significant and unacceptable, problem), either electronically or mechanically, it sticks in place; your MPH will increase but there is no fathomable reason that your RPM will increase as well.

The ABC piece was simply sensational journalism and they got caught with thier hand in the cookie jar - and rightly so.

[Norm Peterson]

Has anybody else here actually read Gilbert's Preliminary Report?

Ignoring the showmanship involved with depicting a tach needle racing toward redline as being a needless distraction, a DBW throttle WILL go wide-open regardless of the pedal position (max, min, or anywhere in between) if the signal to the ECU is of a voltage appropriate with asking it to make that happen. The ECU only understands the voltage, which is (to the ECU) an indirect means of assessing what the driver intends. For the driver, pedal position is now only an indirect means of telling the ECU what you want.


Norm

[sniper]

Is Gilbert the professor that "MODIFIED" the pedeal assemblies to dictate the outcome of his findings?

[John Wright]

Is Gilbert the professor that "MODIFIED" the pedeal assemblies to dictate the outcome of his findings?


http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/08/toyota-hits-back-at-david-gilberts-no-fault-code-demonstratio/

[Norm Peterson]

Is Gilbert the professor that "MODIFIED" the pedeal assemblies to dictate the outcome of his findings?
Yes.

Basically what he did was to jump across the two APP sensor leads and then short them to the +5 volt supply. This simulates electrical malfunctions that while they may be rare are not unheard of.

For whatever reason, Toyota's ECU did not determine that any malfunction was present when the APP leads were shorted, and did not set any codes or trip the MIL. In all test vehicle cases - he tested at least four cars, at least three of those being other than the one used in the demonstration with the media - the electronic throttle valve instantaneously moved to wide-open position when the fault was introduced (fault here being the +5volt signal, which corresponds approximately to WOT for both of the APP circuits).


Phrases like "modified the pedal assemblies" and "dictating the outcome" have pretty strong editorial content. What sort of accelerated test sequence might you prefer, if other than starting with the reported experiences and working backward to see if they could in fact be duplicated? Suppose that Gilbert had been unable to duplicate the reported behavior? Would he then be under suspicion of incompetence?


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Preliminary Report (http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/Preliminary_Report022110.pdf)


Norm

[ErikLS2]

Has anybody else here actually read Gilbert's Preliminary Report?

Ignoring the showmanship involved with depicting a tach needle racing toward redline as being a needless distraction, a DBW throttle WILL go wide-open regardless of the pedal position (max, min, or anywhere in between) if the signal to the ECU is of a voltage appropriate with asking it to make that happen. The ECU only understands the voltage, which is (to the ECU) an indirect means of assessing what the driver intends. For the driver, pedal position is now only an indirect means of telling the ECU what you want.


Norm

It is a little more complicated than just sending 5 volts into the ECU. In the gas pedal assembly there are two pedal position sensors. Each produces a voltage which is used by the ECU to determine throttle plate opening angle. The key is the difference between the two voltages. It must remain constant (approx 0.7 volts) for it to work properly. It's called a comparator circuit and the computer compares the two inputs and as long as the variance between the two is correct the throttle operates properly. If the difference between the two signals either increases or decreases the computer immediately goes into fail safe mode (throttle closes to idle). So, it's easy in a lab environment to send two signals into the computer and get WOT. Driving down the road however, the chances are slim to none that a short will occur that will match the signal the computer must receive to command WOT.

A gas pedal that is pushed down a bit and then sticks there is another story and a much less alarmning scenario in my opinion.

Is there any report anywhere of a car that exists where this unintended acceleration has been duplicated? Not including a floor mat interference or sticking CTS pedal issue.

[79-TA]

I ask the question many here have asked. "Why don't these drivers place the car into neutral or just shut the car off?"

Isn't it that easy to avoid a catastrophe? :hammer:

These people bought modern Toyotas . . . they're that much less likely to be enthusiast drivers of any sort and have bought into an image of "normal and safe" as decided by a blind and near arbitrary consensus. Let's not expect too much of them behind the wheel.


Toyota drivers have 3 basic options

- shift the car into neutral . . . although that's scary, not normal, and who knows, it might even flip the car over! /sarcasm

- turn the car off - many Toyotas are equipped with pointless and gimicky push button starters. To shut the car off while driving, this button must be held down continuously for a number of seconds. Hitting the button repeatedly in a panic will not shut the car off (though more thoughtful brands like Nissan do have such a feature programmed in.) At least Toyota drivers have a decent excuse for not being able to shut the car off in a panic situation.

- just hold the brakes - Car and Driver has shown that the brakes can overpower the engine, even in a powerful car. My guess is that when the car doesn't begin to slow as quickly as the driver hopes, the driver panics from the abnormal response and gives up. What Car and Driver did not test were the effects of brake fade on the test. Their test Toyota experienced considerable fade after a 100-0 mph stop (with WOT.)


Then there's a 4th option - sell the 'yota and get a different car. You might even get your soul back in the process.

My apologies in advance for the aggressive nature of this post. I have plenty of friends with Toyotas. The Camry/Corolla folks have boring cars that still break down (and are nice people who just generally don't care about cars) while I actually think my friends' MR2's are pretty cool.

[daddyuhoh]

It seems that Toyota dug their own grave, and are now pulling the dirt over themselves.

I have heard the argument that they are being "unfairly judged" by a goverment that owns an American company and can therefore not be impartial, but damn if Toyota makes it easy to hate them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_hi_te/us_toyota_black_boxes
Along with a Tahoe & new Camero I do own a Camry Hybrid as my daily driver. Its an '08 with 60k and zero problems to date and averaging 35+ mpg...

[James OLC]

Yes.

Basically what he did was to jump across the two APP sensor leads and then short them to the +5 volt supply. This simulates electrical malfunctions that while they may be rare are not unheard of.

For whatever reason, Toyota's ECU did not determine that any malfunction was present when the APP leads were shorted, and did not set any codes or trip the MIL. In all test vehicle cases - he tested at least four cars, at least three of those being other than the one used in the demonstration with the media - the electronic throttle valve instantaneously moved to wide-open position when the fault was introduced (fault here being the +5volt signal, which corresponds approximately to WOT for both of the APP circuits).


Phrases like "modified the pedal assemblies" and "dictating the outcome" have pretty strong editorial content. What sort of accelerated test sequence might you prefer, if other than starting with the reported experiences and working backward to see if they could in fact be duplicated? Suppose that Gilbert had been unable to duplicate the reported behavior? Would he then be under suspicion of incompetence?


Norm

"Basically" is a pretty simplified comment on it's own... My understanding is that in addition to creating the "short" scenario he also had to add a resistor (20 ohms IIRC) to one wire to keep the tolerance between pedal sensors within the tolerances of the ECM.

I am all for replicating circumstances and sure, a short could conceivably happen (in just about any car) but it would be tough to accidentially add a resistor unless you happen to be on your way home from Radio Shack and spill hot coffee in your lap and dump your bag of resistors on top of the stipped wires that you pulled out from under the dash before you left home...

As soon as a foreign (sorry for the pun) object was placed in the circuit the credibility of the experiment sufferred. If a malfunctioning prius can go 94 mph I can experimentally show you how it could go 110 mph if a small volume of N2O were to be added to the ambient air around the filter...

[Norm Peterson]

20Ω may have been what it took in that particular car, but I doubt that 20Ω or any other specific value would work in all of the potentially affected cars.

Noted in Toyota's service literature is that "0.02 volts or less" voltage difference between the two APP sensor signals should set a DTC (P2138). Gilbert's research, not mine. That's a long way from the 0.8 or so that the system is supposed to nominally run at, and pretty darn close to being a short.

While using voltage traces that rise and fall in unison as a function of pedal movement will allow you to determine if one circuit is either open or shorted to ground, or if one Hall effect device is bad (and let you limp around on the good one), it's pretty much blind to shorts (or near-shorts) between the two circuits themselves.

Shorts between the two circuits is not a likely occurrence, but over several million vehicles at several thousand (or several tens of thousand) miles each it's entirely possible that it will have shown up a few times.

Then it comes down to things like operator competence and presence of mind under duress, and how well those qualities match up with the AVERAGE driver in general (and the AVERAGE Toyota driver in particular).

And this is still only one possible scenario.


Somewhat separately, my Mustang uses a DBW system. With three traces, one of which works opposite to the other two. And apparently there's a little dead-band at the zero pedal position where the first tiny bit of pedal movement produces no engine response at all (and which a few people have physically tinkered with in order to reduce or eliminate a feeling of "slack" if it were a cable control).


Norm

[69bigblock]

I read that a lady testified against toyota at the hearings and when her car was going about 85mph she could not shift the car into neutral or turn the key off.. On my ford truck I could not put it in neutral unless the pedal as depressed..

[John Wright]

Before attempting to discredit or belittle the scientist's motives, read what his objective was:


investigation of the circuit malfunction detection capabilities


Obviously you "can" fool the computer and probably any car maker's computer, which is exactly what he was trying to prove.....not that it takes a special set of circumstances or even that the probability of failure was in question....just simply..."can you make it go WOT without the computer seeing that there is a problem? ans. YES

The news media took advanatage of the scientist IMHO and ad-libbed(sp?) to make it a sensational story....but then again, maybe he was in on it....I dunno.

So regardless of mfg, there is a problem:
A fail safe or an over ride of WOT needs to be within the driver's reach so that he/she can overide the WOT "if" it should happen. Key switch or kill switch seems reasonable to me.

I was thinkling about the one incident where the guy said he tried to pull the stuck pedal up off the floor. Now "if" this happened as he stated, then what could have made this happen? Did the mechanics of the pedal assy stick in a WOT position or was it electronic?
Mechanical....I'd blame the pedal assy
Electrical.....possibly the cruise control? Falsely thinking it needed to maintain a huge amount of speed for some reason? But then I don't know if the CC was even "on" at the time of the WOT incident.
so...What would make the pedal stick on the floor after trying to pass slower traffic?

[69Pony]

A very good article from a very reliable source....


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rampaging-toyotas-obscure-highway-safety-strides-2010-03-11?siteid=nwhpf

Put's it perspective when you read things like this

"As for cars suddenly and unexpectedly lurching for the sound barrier, let's try to put it in perspective.

From 2000 to the end of January 2010, the Transportation Department received 2,600 complaints of sudden acceleration from Toyota drivers.

This from a manufacturer that sold more than a million and a half vehicles during an off year in 2009 and more than that the year before when it unseated General Motors Co. as the world's biggest automaker.

By comparison, Ford Motor Co. has drawn almost 1,000 more complaints for the same problem over the same period, and General Motor Co. has triggered 2,250 complaints from drivers alleging unwanted acceleration."

Now back to bashing Toyota....

[Norm Peterson]

I was thinkling about the one incident where the guy said he tried to pull the stuck pedal up off the floor. Now "if" this happened as he stated, then what could have made this happen? Did the mechanics of the pedal assy stick in a WOT position or was it electronic?

Mechanical....I'd blame the pedal assy

Electrical.....possibly the cruise control? Falsely thinking it needed to maintain a huge amount of speed for some reason? But then I don't know if the CC was even "on" at the time of the WOT incident.

so...What would make the pedal stick on the floor after trying to pass slower traffic?
Excessive friction (that the pedal shim modification was supposed to remedy).


Norm

[James OLC]

A fail safe or an over ride of WOT needs to be within the driver's reach so that he/she can overide the WOT "if" it should happen. Key switch or kill switch seems reasonable to me.

And yet all of these cars do have keys or kill switches...


I was thinkling about the one incident where the guy said he tried to pull the stuck pedal up off the floor. Now "if" this happened as he stated, then what could have made this happen? Did the mechanics of the pedal assy stick in a WOT position or was it electronic?
Mechanical....I'd blame the pedal assy
Electrical.....possibly the cruise control? Falsely thinking it needed to maintain a huge amount of speed for some reason? But then I don't know if the CC was even "on" at the time of the WOT incident.
so...What would make the pedal stick on the floor after trying to pass slower traffic?

I don't know... fraud maybe?

Did bankrupt runaway prius driver fake unintended acceleration (http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration)

[/URL]

Here is an interesting article written by one of the guys who investigated some of the thousands of complaints of unintended acceleration in the 1980's and '90's... [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html?pagewanted=1&ref=opinion (http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-runaway-prius-driver-fake-unintended-acceleration)

[wmhjr]

A very good article from a very reliable source....


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rampaging-toyotas-obscure-highway-safety-strides-2010-03-11?siteid=nwhpf

Put's it perspective when you read things like this

"As for cars suddenly and unexpectedly lurching for the sound barrier, let's try to put it in perspective.

From 2000 to the end of January 2010, the Transportation Department received 2,600 complaints of sudden acceleration from Toyota drivers.

This from a manufacturer that sold more than a million and a half vehicles during an off year in 2009 and more than that the year before when it unseated General Motors Co. as the world's biggest automaker.

By comparison, Ford Motor Co. has drawn almost 1,000 more complaints for the same problem over the same period, and General Motor Co. has triggered 2,250 complaints from drivers alleging unwanted acceleration."

Now back to bashing Toyota....

If that information is accurate, then it seems pretty clear to me what's going on. Not to say Toyota doesn't have a problem. But if in fact there are far less reported complaints concerning Toyota vehicles than Ford or GM for example, and if the "affected vehicles" have a markedly lower accident rate, then it's Congress and the Media piling on in support of Government motors.

[Jim Nilsen]

If that information is accurate, then it seems pretty clear to me what's going on. Not to say Toyota doesn't have a problem. But if in fact there are far less reported complaints concerning Toyota vehicles than Ford or GM for example, and if the "affected vehicles" have a markedly lower accident rate, then it's Congress and the Media piling on in support of Government motors.

It doesn't take long with the right information to start to see what the government has been doing for years to take over the auto industry. I saw it clear back when Chrysler bought Mistubishi engines so they could make an economy car without having to add the price of engine development to the cost.

I have been talking about WAM ( World Automotive Manufacturers)ever sever since then. I figured it would be here by 2000 but it has taken a few more years because of delays in brainwashing us all.

When the poeple rise up and ask the government to control them what did they think was going to happen? Sueing the companies wasn't enough to keep them honest, they/we had to pass laws to make them comply. Now look at what is happening.

The same people who control our politicians contol the media and that inherently controls what we think of them and how we think about everything else we do or want. Big oil and banking people have owned the media for ever and have infuenced us just like they want to get us where we are today.I could go on but I think you are starting to see the big picture.

[dadto2jays]

this is how it feels.....:bsjerk:


http://www.toyotasimulator.com/ (http://www.toyotasimulator.com/)

[wmhjr]

It doesn't take long with the right information to start to see what the government has been doing for years to take over the auto industry. I saw it clear back when Chrysler bought Mistubishi engines so they could make an economy car without having to add the price of engine development to the cost.

I have been talking about WAM ( World Automotive Manufacturers)ever sever since then. I figured it would be here by 2000 but it has taken a few more years because of delays in brainwashing us all.

When the poeple rise up and ask the government to control them what did they think was going to happen? Sueing the companies wasn't enough to keep them honest, they/we had to pass laws to make them comply. Now look at what is happening.

The same people who control our politicians contol the media and that inherently controls what we think of them and how we think about everything else we do or want. Big oil and banking people have owned the media for ever and have infuenced us just like they want to get us where we are today.I could go on but I think you are starting to see the big picture.

Jim, you and partially agree. I don't agree that "big oil and banking people have owned the media forever". I believe that the pseudo-intellectual snobbery of the self appointed liberal enforcement have owned the media. And now, that group has usurped constitutional power and controls both houses of congress and the executive branch - combining to form a perfect storm.

The fact that the government now owns what any reasonable person knows is "private enterprise" and has the ability to significantly manipulate entire markets makes the situation completely unacceptable.

In this case, it again does appear as though some Toyotas have some problems. And that maybe Toyota hasn't handled them like we expect. Problem is, facts also seem to indicate that 2 of our big 3 have the same issue - but frankly in a larger scale. And the combination of the above is giving them a free pass. Deliberate manipulation of the free market system and private enterprise. There is nothing whatseover here about protecting the consumer or the driver. This is all about something else.

[Taman]

Here's the latest. Toyota knew all along about the pedal problems.
http://autos.aol.com/?adl=72507&icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl4|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fautos.aol.com%2F%3Fadl%3D 72507

[79-TA]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Twentyover]

Catch Leno's monolouge tonight- a fairly humorous comment