Dannmar lifts - Wej-It anchors

[wmhjr]

Guys, just thought I'd mention some experiences of late associated with the attempted installation of a Dannmar/Bendpak MaxJax lift - that may well also be similar to an issue in their other lifts. It's safety related so I thought I'd at least mention it.

I have only 8' ceilings in my shop, so a regular lift is out of the question. Plus, it's a multi-purpose shop so a 4 post lift would be too intrusive. But I always wanted at least a mid-rise lift. The advantages of the MaxJax lift really seemed to fit the bill. After a long period of consideration, I ordered a set from Portage Lift in Ohio (good people). After receipt of the lifts, I started assembly. No big deal, but I noticed that the installation and operations manual seemed to be out of date, with some unaddressed changes to the design. Since the failure mode of this product would be fatal, I reached out to Dannmar - who acknowledged that they needed to update the manual. No big deal - the issues were not significant IMHO.

However when I started the process of actually installing the concrete anchors and setting the lift posts was underway, I began to experience issues getting the anchors set. My concrete is about 25yrs old, in great condition, above 3000psi, and at least 4" thick. I followed Dannmars instructions to the T. A number of the anchors just would not set. This issue has been reported on other sites, such as "The Garage Journal Board".

So, I then did some research on the Wej-It PD-58 "Power Drop" anchors and discovered a completely different instruction directly from Wej-It. I contacted Wej-It directly, and they were incredibly helpful. I provided them the instructions direction from Dannmar (sent them the actual document and the link) and they indicated that Dannmar was using an incorrect procedure that could result in the anchor not properly setting.

I called Dannmar, and informed them. They said they'd call back later that day. When I did not hear from them I called them the next day. They acknowledged at that time that they had made and error, and started trying to figure out how to fix this. A new recommendation was to use a standard Wej-It 7/8" wedge anchor as a temporary solution, and that they'd "work out something" to fix my concrete and get correct anchors in this spring. Later, after again researching through Wej-It I discover that the 7/8" wedge anchor required at least twice the diameter of concrete remains under the anchor - the concrete cannot be drilled "through" (which Dannmar knew it had been). Also, the 7/8" "studs" on those wedge anchors would not fit through the mounting baseplate on the lift columns (which are designed for 5/8" bolts). Not a solution. I emailed this information to Gabe at Dannmar.

Later last night I get a phone call from Gabe, telling me that Wej-It is "wrong" and that the MaxJax "doesn't need the full capability" of the PD-58 anchor - so the instructions Dannmar provided are fine. They say that if you ask Wej-It, "all lifts are not installed properly". I tell them that this is not acceptable to me - that when a failure would result in death, "guessing" at setting an anchor is ridiculous, and when the actual anchor manufacturer is strongly disagreeing about setting the anchor - we should pay attention. Gabe says they've "tested" and point to a specification on their site - which is a REQUIREMENTS spec that mathematically calculates the REQUIRED shear and stress factors of each bolt. It does not TEST to show ACTUAL stress of shear ratings of bolts installed as per their discussions. In fact, it uses the same factors PROVIDED BY WEJ-IT ASSUMING YOU ARE INSTALLING THEM AS PER WEJ-IT instructions. I get nothing but BS back. I believe at this point they are covering their behind, and are denying any issues because if they admit to it and there is a failure, they will have already accepted culpability legally. In other words - they're placing their financial situation far ahead of your life.

Wej-It on the other hand has been extremely helpful and honest. They have discussed "practical" impacts and measures - and not just theoretical.

So at this point I'm at a crossroad. The lift itself seems OK. I could just ignore all the Dannmar crap, and install anchors "correctly". Or, I could just have them pick the lift up.

Which would you do?

And BTW - If any of you have installed a Dannmar lift, I'd think about taking a hard look at anchor setting. If you want specific details about where Dannmar went wrong, let me know.

[MrQuick]

Can you post pictures of the lift and fasteners??

Its the same response you would get from a manufacturer. Your right, they are going to cover their asses. If they were to acknowledge the issue with you they would have to go back and fix every unit produced, all units in production and possibly pay for more injuries suffered. Deniability is cheaper than responsibility, typical but sad at the same time.


We are using the same fasteners (3/4") on both of our racks. Hammer set. What part is incorrect with the instructions? http://www.wejit.com/pdfcat/Page%2019.pdf
vince

[John Wright]

If you like the lift, I would get an acceptable anchor system in place and forget about the lift mfg's instructions. Don't forget to check out Hilti, they have high strength adhesive anchor systems that work well, along with other types for shallow concrete depths.


http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_catnavigation.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-58688

see if any of this will fit your application....we use these in multi-story buildings when the concrete guys set the anchor bolts incorrectly.

[sniper]

Personally I prefer the Red Head brand of anchors.

Two things. First don't use an impact to set the wedges. You can rip right through them.

Second, I had an issue with a lift one time and the anchors, they would "walk" their way up the cavity. I was told to use an anchoring adhesive. Again, I used the red head brand. And never had another issue with the anchors loosening.
And I also added a 2x4 boxt steel and steel mounting plates to make an upper cross brace between the two posts to connect both uprights.

[gtotto]

I would probably return it. I have used the two post lifts when I worked in the field several years ago but now, in my own garage, I opted for a four post for safety reasons. Now, someone would agrue that, when properly installed, the two post are safe and I know that is true. But as I grow older (and more paranoid) I feel that having four posts on the ground are better than two. I know you stated that you couldn't use a four post in your space but I would at least try to minimize my potential hazzards and concerns and start over fresh. It sounds like you got the "it's good enough" response and that could deadly. For similiar reasons I purchased an American made lift because I felt that a "good enough" lift wasn't right for me and I didn't like the idea of two tons of steel overhead propped up by Chinese steel, etc........ It only takes one incident to prove the "experts" wrong. Good luck

[Yoda4561]

Where the safety of myself and my vehicle is concerned, if I don't trust it I won't use it. It could very well be the most reliable piece of equipment on earth, and the installation may work fine, but you won't ever be happy if you're always second guessing it.

[silver69camaro]

I'm very particular for technical details. I'd return it, or weld a 20x20x0.375" to the bottom of each footing and use that to widen the bolt pattern for the concrete anchors - thus reducing the load placed on each bolt.

[monza]

I know it's not rocket science or any thing and from all your posts wmhjr you seem 100% competent in what your doing so this may sound like a dumb suggestion. Maybe for a piece of mind you could get a 'pro' installer to do the job? Technical engineering/construction firms would have a need for this when the specs are crucial for many applications. Just a thought.

I'd probable do it myself in "over kill" mode like the suggestion above with the best inserts and anchoring adhesive I could get ahold of.

After thought: The 'pro' would be some kid with a Hilti drill and some five minute epoxy...

[KWIKND]

Maybe I missed something but "at least 4" concrete thickness does not cut it.
Wej-it spec says minimum hole depth 5 1/2" inches for the 7/8 anchor.

http://www.wejit.com/pdfcat/Page%2019.pdf

Good luck
Dan

[monza]

Maybe I missed something but "at least 4" concrete thickness does not cut it.
Wej-it spec says minimum hole depth 5 1/2" inches for the 7/8 anchor.

http://www.wejit.com/pdfcat/Page%2019.pdf

Good luck
Dan

I was always 'told' you needed 6" for a two post lift to be safe?

[parsonsj]

I had the equipment company do the install of my new Mohawk. They certified the installation, so my widow will be able to sue them. :)

jp

[silver69camaro]

I was always 'told' you needed 6" for a two post lift to be safe?

Technically you do. The plate method I mentioned is a way to get around that.

[Yelcamino]

They certified the installation, so my widow will be able to sue them. :)

jp

Now that's what I call planning ahead! :lmao:

[wmhjr]

So, some more details.

The Wej-It instructions essentially have you drill the hole to 7/8", put the sacrificial 5/8" bolt in, allow about 5/8" of thread between the anchor and the head of the bolt, and tap the anchors in. Then, remove the bolt. Put a 5/8" nut on the bolt. Screw that assembly through a washer (that acts as a bearing for the nut) into the anchor. Then, hold the bolt head and tighten the nut - forcing the anchor to pull up without twisting. I'm paraphrasing.

The Dannmar instructions have you simply turn the sacrifical bolt to set the anchor.

The problem is two fold. First of all, the sacrificial bolt can bottom out in the anchor. Second, the entire assembly can turn because your're turning the BOLT and not applying force straight up.

Furthermore, the Dannmar instructions have you do the final "tighten" with the lift post in place - which can result in the top of the anchor rising and actually tightening against the base of the lift post - rather than anchoring in the concrete. So, from the "bolt" or torque perspective, it appears as though it's tight. But from a stress perspective, it may not be.

The only advantage to the Dannmar process is..... They don't have to supply a 5/8" coarse nut and washer. All of about 30 cents.

Over on Garage Forums, there are plenty of people who have had the PD-58s "spin", resulting in them having to cut out and repour concrete. I wonder just how many of them would have been fine had the "correct" process been used.

Wej-It, btw, confirmed that the PD-58 in 3000psi 4" concrete would be perfectly acceptable for this application. It also turns out that the lift was designed by Bendpak - and the designer called me today. He agreed that Dannmar was probably at fault here and was much more logical than Dannmar.

You don't need "6 of concrete for a 2 post lift". You need sufficient stress and shear capacity to support whatever the moment is for the application (remember that the nature of the lift would result in failure having the lift rotate on the inner edge). This lift, at full height, arms fully extended to maximum, with 6000 lbs, requires just over 3000lbs stress capacity per outside bolt. Each lift will have slightly different requirements based on the height, rated lift capacity, baseplate design, etc. In some cases that may mean more than 6" required. In some cases it may be less than 4".

[wmhjr]

So, here's what I think I'm going to do. I need to make a small standoff to allow me to test the torque of the anchors I "think" are good. According to Wej-It, 5/8" anchors get 95 ft-lbs, and 7/8" anchors get about 200 ft-lbs. This is a 5/8" bolt in a 7/8" assembly, so I need to validate which is correct. Dannmar said 70 ft-lbs - clearly incorrect.

The ones that test "OK" I'll just leave alone. The other ones, I should be able to drive straight down into the substrait (I did drill through the entire concrete). I need to drive them down so that the top depth is 6 1/4". Then inspect the concrete to try and validate that everything is stlil OK. Then, fill each hole to about 50% and sink the inserts until the top is flush.

Thoughts?

[MonzaRacer]

Honestly I would possibly look into replacing the loose ones with the Hilti epoxy adhesive units. Have you seen the PSI points, incredible.
Nothing wrong with 2 post lifts, and besides 25yr old concrete is gonna be very stable, and as for other issues if your not super happy with mounting go buy some plates the same thinckness of the bottom mount plate, but wider, bolt those down then have the rack bolted and welded to that plate.
One shop I worked at did this as the manufacturer was out of spreader plates for the lift we installed and instead of 4 big fasteners it had 8 slightly smaller ones, big studs welded into the spreaders and then the rack was bolted AND welded to the spreader.
Ever hear a diesel powered 440 3 phase construction welder run? Sounds like a cross between a concrete saw and a jet engine spooling up!

[Jim Nilsen]

I have put in thousands of anchors of all sizes and types and wedge anchors are one of the worst for failure. The epoxy capsules with glass outer shells combined with the threaded rod that suits the specs you need are some of the strongest you can use. Once epoxy capsules are mixed up from the rod being drilled and impacted down in the hole and let to set they will hold the world compared to a stud/wedge anchor.

You mentioned the ones from Hilti and I have used them and several other brands. Diamond is another good one. I would replace any wedge anchor that seems to not be tightening up correcty with an epoxy anchor.

Hopefully you made the hole go all the way through so you can push the bad anchor down deep in the hole. This is how we always put wedge anchors in that were for jib cranes. This way you never have to ruin the hole to replace the anchor. You just drill the hole bigger to the next size anchor. You can also put the epoxy capsules in the 2nd time around and use the stud anchor as the bottom to keep the exopy in while you drill the rod in.

The most effective way to start with is j hooks in the cement but that takes preplanning at the time of the poor and at times has proven to me to be no more effective than the epoxy anchors.

Sounds to me like you have it under control and you are right about it being very important. If they don't pull and torque correctly it is trouble waiting to happen. Inspect them all the time to start with and just as often later.

Goodluck

[wmhjr]

Wej-It came through and I received the "new" anchors yesterday. Whew! These things are ridiculously expensive. I looked on Grainger, and the per unit anchor is..... $82.35 EACH!!! http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5HU89?Pid=search (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5HU89?Pid=search) . I wasn't expecting them to arrive so quickly. I'm about to get started on the floor, testing each anchor that "seems" set at 90 ft-lb torque. Anything that fails at that torque I'll then need to drive down to at least 6.25" depth. Jim - I did in fact drill all the way through the concrete. So long as I don't hit any rock I should be OK there. If all that works, next week I'll get the correct AWF Epoxy and finish the lift next weekend. I'll get the exact epoxy that Wej-It is recommending. If I can't torque and drive these anchors as described today, I'm having them pick up the lift and take it back. I'll figure out what I want to do later this summer in that case.

Point of this story is that I'd advise any of you that have lifts, think about your mounting bolts. If you installed anchors provided by the lift manufacturer - and especially if it's a Dannmar lift - you might want to check the anchors. In my case, it's very likely that somebody inexperienced would not have realized that the anchors were not correctly set, and the lift would have been unsafe. Maybe it wouldn't have failed in my lifetime. Maybe it would have failed the 1st time I used it. Who knows?https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[wmhjr]

go buy some plates the same thinckness of the bottom mount plate, but wider, bolt those down then have the rack bolted and welded to that plate.

I have actually thought about doing this myself. I have some plate steel, and I thought about makeing a "reinforcement" plate that kind of "extends" the baseplate out. I can't really weld it on, as it would defeat the purpose of the lift design. These lift posts are designed to be capable of unbolting from the floor and moved to a different mounting location - or put aside to make room when not in use. The MaxJax design can be seen at http://www.maxjaxusa.com/images.html . I've gone through the math time after time, and so long as the anchors are correct, the lift is well designed for the intended application - by Bendpak. If you look at the BendPak lift line and focus on the "power units" you'll see the Dannmar MaxJax unit is exactly the same.

Anyway, because of the baseplate design, I would probably use the same gauge steel plate and make an "extension that had voids where the "casters" are on the lift post itself. Then, I'd make a "top" plate using the same steel, which extended over all 6 original bolts. Assemble everything and tack it in place to get a zero stress alignment, remove and stick weld. Drill holes in the "extension" baseplate and sink anchors for those holes also. If I sink the anchors in the correct locations, I would then have some adjustability should I want to move the baseplates in or out.

Make sense?

[wmhjr]

Ok, so here's the in progress review so far today. It's DAMN SCARY :o
Unbolted the post that "seemed to be OK". One by one I put a large 2" socket over the hole (3/4" drive) and a bearing washer over that, and then a 5/8" bolt through it. Set the torque wrench to 90 ft lbs. No good. 70 ft lbs. No good. 45 ft lbs just for kicks. NO GOOD! Not a single one of those anchors could hold 45 ft lbs via a 5/8" coarse bolt. The spec is 90 lbs. They didn't hold even half that - but when you followed the instructions and torqued them to spec during the Dannmar installation with the baseplate mounted, they "seemed" fine.
That means that the anchors were nice and solid against the baseplate, but NOTHING was solid underneath it!
I've measured concrete depth on each of those 5 holes and all have exceeded 5 1/2" of concrete. If the other side turns out the same I should be perfectly fine with the epoxy type anchors.
Guys, if you have a lift - CHECK IT IF YOU CAN! This is one case where being overly particular has sure paid off.

[wmhjr]

Update: The other lift post anchors were pretty much the same. Fortunately I had drilled all the way through the concrete so while it took a little effort, I was able to drive all the anchors down 6 1/2" into the substrait. I've checked all holes, and the concrete seems intact and fine, with a depth of at least 5 1/2" of solid concrete.

No thanks to Dannmar, Wej-It was kind enough to send me 10 of the PSS-58 anchors at no cost. I'm going to order some AWF Epoxy this week and set the anchors next Saturday. I am at this point truly happy that this happened so that I know this system will be safe. Were it up to Dannmar, I'd have a lift with half-assed anchors in place and me underneath a car. The only reasons I'm keeping the lift (so far) is because it's a BendPak design rather than a Dannmar product actually so I at least have some confidence that the lift design itself is good, and because the lift design fits my needs best.

Kudos to Wej-It for really going far beyond what they need to in support of their product.

[MrQuick]

thanks for the the heads up, although this would not be the type of rack in my shop.
good luck
vince

[wmhjr]

No problem - though I really wasn't posting it because of the type of lift. IMHO any lift installation could have the same issue. Particularly any 2 post lift from Dannmar. If they're way off on correct installation procedures for anchors on one type of lift, I'm betting they could be off on others. Especiallly since a reasonably large part of the installation instructions are essentially "generic" - they seem to use them across multiple installations.

Kind of like the whole thread about car safety such as fire extinguishers, cages, etc - I wanted to get people at least thinking about exactly how their lift was installed, who did it, and how confident are you that the anchors are solid. Far less of an issue for those with 4 post lifts.

[vintageracer]

I bought a 12K# Challenger 4 post lift from one of the Ford dealers that went out of business in Nashville. I already had a 9K# 2 Post Rotary so I thought why not on a four post.

The lift itself was in superb used condition. Paid $1200 for the lift. I asked Jim from Shoemaker equipment about dis-assembling, moving and re-assembling the lift at my shop. Only had 7 miles travel distance. He quoted $400.00. I "thought" that sounded high but said what the hell! As the Rotary dealer here in Middle Tennessee he does this everyday. Taking it down took about an hour. Re-assembling it took Jim and his helper almost 5 hours to properly re-assemble the lift. All of a sudden that $400 bucks was looking to be money well spent since he also had the needed hoist and equipment to properly align and set up the lift.

Anchors I used were donated buy UPS to the project. Gravity also helps anchor this big 12K# drive on four post lift.

Just goes to show that sometimes the professionals price quote "sounds" expensive until you really see how much work/knowledge is involved!

[wmhjr]

Update - 7 March 2010

Last week I ordered 4 8.5oz (tube actually says 275ml/9.3 fl oz) tubes of "Inject-TITE AWF" All Weather Epoxy Acrylate made by Wej-It. I was told that based on my application, 2 would probably work but I didn't want to get almost done and have to wait another week or so. Plus, I found a commercial electric place in TX that sells these for $17/tube rather than the $30+ per tube everywhere else.

Yesterday morning I cleaned all 10 holes, used a small brush on them, and used compressed air to insure all possible dust was out of the holes.

I then followed the instructions on the epoxy. There is a plastic screw cap on the end. Remove it, pull the plug out and you see two "nozzles" inside. Screw on the long (about 10") "Mixing Nozzle". Put that assembly in your gun, then squeeze out a little to make sure it's mixing to a universal consistent grey color. Mine did immediately.

I stuck it down in the bottom, and filled the entire hole to about 75% full (more than recommended). Then I'd insert the anchor, tap it down fully (with a 5/8" bolt screwed in). I used a flat bladed putty knife to remove excess and was careful to keep the epoxy out of the threaded area. Did this with all 10 holes. I wasted a good bit of epoxy, and used 3 complete tubes and part of the 4th (which means I used all 4 since once you start using it you can no longer store it).

Here's what the Power-Sert anchor looks like...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4441-1.jpg

I cleaned up a little right away. The putty knife is now trash. The epoxy was to a mild hardness within a few minutes. It felt fully cured within 2 hrs. I don't know the concrete temp, but assuming 50 deg, published cure time is 60 min. No sense pushing it.

About 4 hrs later, I bolted the lifts in place but did not really tighten them down. Finished the actual "lift" installation (install hydraulic lines, lift arms, fill with fluid, raise/lower lift to bleed cylinders).

This morning I checked the installation. All looked fine. Tightened the mounting bolts down, and lifted the GTO. I have a magnetic level on one of the lift posts just to watch it for a few days - also moved it to the other post every once in a while. No problems.

The lift effortlessly handles the GTO. It is very very stable at this point. I'm going to get some more anchors to provide different post locations in my shop - now that I am comfortable with these anchors and epoxy, it's a simple job. Here's the lift - not great pics, but...

BTW, at pretty much full lift, the top of the wheel wells are at shoulder height for me - I'm 6'2". In my garage, any more lift would be worthless.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4442-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4452-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4454-1.jpg

[MrQuick]

that looks much better.


just curious, is there a valve on the lift rams? was wondering if you could disconnect the lines with the weight of a car on the rack?

vince

[Jim Nilsen]

Those are some nice anchors. You will be able to work with confidence now. Thats a nice lift too. I have built my whole car on jackstands and it has never been anymore than 24" off the ground at my place. It was nice to get pics at Schwartz Performance on their lift.

The car looks really good and it should be about time soon to see the snow all gone. The hood of the old truck just shed the snow off the hood today that has been on there since the first snowfall.

Are you planning to make any events this year? I would like to see it in person someday.:yum:

[wmhjr]

Jim, I'm planning GoodGuys Columbus. You going to be there? I'd love to see your car and shake your hand.

[Jim Nilsen]

Jim, I'm planning GoodGuys Columbus. You going to be there? I'd love to see your car and shake your hand.

What is the date for the event? It has been a long time since I've been in Columbus but it might be a good raod trip and maybe even a chance to show the Cormaro and get some exposure.

Someday we will meet I just know it and look forward to the day to shake your hand too.

[wmhjr]

What is the date for the event? It has been a long time since I've been in Columbus but it might be a good raod trip and maybe even a chance to show the Cormaro and get some exposure.

Someday we will meet I just know it and look forward to the day to shake your hand too.

I think it's July 9-11 Jim.

[Joe From NY]

Personally I prefer the Red Head brand of anchors.


And I also added a 2x4 boxt steel and steel mounting plates to make an upper cross brace between the two posts to connect both uprights.
Could you post a photo of that?
thanks

[UPSHIFT]

wmhjr,

Thank you for raising awareness of the anchor bolts. It is always best to err on the side of caution. Although you have pointed out an installation procedure not endorsed by Wej-it, it is (was) a procedure that had been tested many times before, and with loads exceeding 150% of the rated capacity.

Two-post lifts have been used around the world for almost four decades. They are the most commonly used vehicle lift in the world today. Although the cantilever style design does make one speculate about the forces applied to the anchors and floor, it is quite low compared to other structures. The MaxJax lift has a lower rated capacity than most commercial lifts and the arms are shorter which reduces the moment loading considerably. The tension load on each MaxJax rear anchor when loaded to full capacity, off-set and rear-heavy, is only 2300 pounds.

We appreciate your communication with Wej-it engineers, but we too have had similar discussion, and not with over-the-counter reps or call center techs, but chief engineers. Remember, our companies purchase over 200,000 anchors a year - we are attended to.

Below is a recent email received from a Wej-it engineer along with the accompanied testing photos. This person was given all communication relating to your anchor bolt issue.



Gabe,

I can’t see any way that your installation process caused floor damage to Ponchopower’s floor. If indeed there was floor damage I suspect that the continued torquing of the anchor simply created enough tension that the anchor overcame the concrete’s ability to resist it but even that would have to be at torque values far above what he stated he used. Residential concrete is well known to be dubious in terms of its continuity of thickness and questionable in terms of content of aggregate.

But just to be sure something else was not happening here I took a random box of PD-58’s from our stock and tested them to see if I could duplicate Ponchopower’s results and I found that these anchors (when installed in proper thickness concrete and installed as directed by Dannmar) work perfectly. The scan #5215 000 is of the lab’s data collection sheet. On it you will find that the average of the 3 anchors that I pulled was 22,806 lbs tension which is comfortably above the catalog value of 14,800 lbs tension.

I would be remiss if I did not point out that there are no torque values published on our website for Power Drop anchors as alleged by Ponchopower since they are considered “Turn Set” anchors.

The pictures that are attached illustrate the fact that the anchors never failed, the concrete failed to withstand the force of the anchors when pulled to failure. A concrete spall as seen is the typical failure mode for these anchors.

A couple of things to note from the attached photos are as follows;
1 - All anchors spalled the concrete at tensions above published values. These results are consistent with normally functioning anchors when pulled to failure.
2 – None of the anchors lost the friction clip or suffered any body damage and therefore could have given even more resistance (higher tension values) had the concrete been able to withstand the pressure.
3 – To see if the anchors acted adversely when a torque was applied I took them to 100 Ft. Lbs and all of the sample anchors set without any trouble.
4 – I included 1 photo of the top view of a properly set anchor.

What my experience tells me is that it is likely that Ponchopower’s floor did not meet the minimum thickness requirements or that some mis-installation occurred such as a condition known as a reverse spall. That is when the installer breaks the backside of the concrete out because of excessive drilling pressure. Both conditions could create the scenario as described by Ponchpower.

Your instructions also state to blow the dust from the hole. If this is not done a condition could be created whereas the anchor might fail to reach the proper depth of embedment and cause similar issues as outlined.

Best Regards,

XXXX XXXXXX
Technical Services
Wej-it Fastening Systems
Attached Thumbnails

[wmhjr]

The above post is a copy of an old post from another forum. The data in the post is not correct, as some of what the author (who is an employee of Danmar) communicated is entirely incorrect (ie, the actual situation, what "failed", installation method, etc). There are a number of inaccuracies. Please note that the author joined on the day that the post was made.

The situation has been resolved in the interim through the help and support of Wej-It. Interestingly enough, through the support of Wej-It engineering specificially - the very same people who indicated that the installation instructions for the provided anchors is incorrect. Furthermore, the torque values mentioned were directly provided upon request of the Wej-It engineering staff. My guess is simply that whether unintentionally or not, Danmar relayed an inaccurate discription of the situation to Wej-It - as the observations and conclusions by this supposed Wej-It Technical Support representative both do not represent what actually happened - as well as directly contradicting the observation, advice, recommendation, support, and actually the replacement anchors all directly from Wej-It. Yes, Wej-It directly sent me replacement anchors of a different type at no cost. I cannot speak to whatever "test" Gabe conducted and then sent to Wej-It. I have no idea whatsoever of what was sent, nor do I believe it likely represented the actual situation. The "enclosed pictures" that are referenced in no way are related to my installation. They are pictures of the "test" that Danmar conducted and sent to Wej-It. Just to be clear. There is plenty of documentation surrounding this issue - far more than this partial thread exposes.

As an aside concerning this lift specifically, here are some longer term observations.

1) The lift itself works well. The required capacity (as noted on other forums as well) of fluid to operate the lift is actually is incorrectly referenced in the installation guide. You need approximately one extra quart of fluid, otherwise the pump begins to cavitate in order to raise it so that the safety bars can be inserted in the "high" position.

2) It's a little bit of a leaky SOB. I have yet to be able to get all the connections to where they don't leak just a little fluid.

3) The included hydraulic lines could stand to be a little longer. Having the cart directly in front or behind the vehicle may sound great, but in many shops you may need to position the pump cart off to one side a little. The lines are just a little too short to easily do that. I may look to make some longer lines.

4) The lift raises "relatively" evenly. The one side always raises about 1.5" higher than the other - until you get all the way to the top - at which time they finally even out. Not a big deal.

5) Though I'm still not crazy about how Danmar handled this particular situation and do not agree with their comments/instructions about anchor mounting, I still think the lift itself is probably the best option out there if you don't have a tall shop ceiling that can handle a full height lift. I simply would not use their anchor mounting instructions, and after my experience would ONLY use epoxy supported anchors. It is simply a stupid idea - emphasis on the word stupid - to take a chance in this area.

6) The safety bars could use some improvement. They're plenty safe - no issue there. It's just that the ends are simply cut flat, so it's a little bit of a pain to feed them through both sides of the lift. Simply rounding the "flat" end of that safety bar would allow it to feed far easier through the post. Again, not a big deal. Just an obvious opportunity for improvement.

In summary, the lift has been very helpful and I wish I had bought it earlier. I also wish I had just bought epoxy anchors to start with. And, I REALLY wish I could put an end to the hydraulic fluid leaks. But other than that? I've kept a magnetic level on each of the lift posts since installation just to prompt me to check from time to time, and everything has been great.

Again - this lift was installed in a 30 yr old garage floor, exceeding 5 1/2" of solid concrete everywhere, not pre-stressed, no cracks, no spalling, eventually using epoxy set anchors. As opposed to what the previous thread seems to insinuate, the floor was not "destroyed" by the PD-58 anchors. The exact same holes were actually used for the replacement epoxy based anchors. The lift is functioning, and is being frequently used.

I would think this thread has served its purpose and can easily be closed.

[NewShockerGuy]

Update - 7 March 2010

Last week I ordered 4 8.5oz (tube actually says 275ml/9.3 fl oz) tubes of "Inject-TITE AWF" All Weather Epoxy Acrylate made by Wej-It. I was told that based on my application, 2 would probably work but I didn't want to get almost done and have to wait another week or so. Plus, I found a commercial electric place in TX that sells these for $17/tube rather than the $30+ per tube everywhere else.

Yesterday morning I cleaned all 10 holes, used a small brush on them, and used compressed air to insure all possible dust was out of the holes.

I then followed the instructions on the epoxy. There is a plastic screw cap on the end. Remove it, pull the plug out and you see two "nozzles" inside. Screw on the long (about 10") "Mixing Nozzle". Put that assembly in your gun, then squeeze out a little to make sure it's mixing to a universal consistent grey color. Mine did immediately.

I stuck it down in the bottom, and filled the entire hole to about 75% full (more than recommended). Then I'd insert the anchor, tap it down fully (with a 5/8" bolt screwed in). I used a flat bladed putty knife to remove excess and was careful to keep the epoxy out of the threaded area. Did this with all 10 holes. I wasted a good bit of epoxy, and used 3 complete tubes and part of the 4th (which means I used all 4 since once you start using it you can no longer store it).

Here's what the Power-Sert anchor looks like...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4441-1.jpg

I cleaned up a little right away. The putty knife is now trash. The epoxy was to a mild hardness within a few minutes. It felt fully cured within 2 hrs. I don't know the concrete temp, but assuming 50 deg, published cure time is 60 min. No sense pushing it.

About 4 hrs later, I bolted the lifts in place but did not really tighten them down. Finished the actual "lift" installation (install hydraulic lines, lift arms, fill with fluid, raise/lower lift to bleed cylinders).

This morning I checked the installation. All looked fine. Tightened the mounting bolts down, and lifted the GTO. I have a magnetic level on one of the lift posts just to watch it for a few days - also moved it to the other post every once in a while. No problems.

The lift effortlessly handles the GTO. It is very very stable at this point. I'm going to get some more anchors to provide different post locations in my shop - now that I am comfortable with these anchors and epoxy, it's a simple job. Here's the lift - not great pics, but...

BTW, at pretty much full lift, the top of the wheel wells are at shoulder height for me - I'm 6'2". In my garage, any more lift would be worthless.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4442-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4452-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/03/DSC_4454-1.jpg



Hate to bump an old thread but sent you a PM on the epoxy anchors and had a couple questions. Those that have used the epoxy anchors is it recommened when using them to set them completely flush with the concrete? I have my wedge anchors that 3 of them bit into the concrete but since you have to drive thwm down 5/8th of an inch below the concrete as you tighten them they pull up some, some more than others honestly... Is it recommended to keep these epoxy anchors flush or have them about 1/8th inch below the concrete?

Thanks much,
-Nigel