Watts link

[Mike Davis]

I see alot of people talking about a watts link. What is the advantage of this over a sway bar? Does this improve the rear handling? Sorry for the noobish questions, just curious if this is a mod i want to do. Any help with this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Mike

[BillyShope]

A swaybar has nothing to do with a Watts linkage. The Watts is used to control the lateral position of the rear axle assembly during suspension travel. This is an alternative to a Panhard rod ("track bar" to many oldtimers). While it does not...as some believe...provide perfect location, the Watts is superior in function to the Panhard. Having said that, I would go on to say that, for a stiffly sprung pavement racer, the Watts involves complication and expense best avoided. For an offroad racer, however, it might become a necessity due to the large wheel travel during jounce and rebound.

I would suggest you google some pictures.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

[JRouche]

I see alot of people talking about a watts link. What is the advantage of this over a sway bar? Does this improve the rear handling? Sorry for the noobish questions, just curious if this is a mod i want to do. Any help with this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Mike

Like what was said, a watts link is different from a sway bar. But I imagine you already have some sort of lateral locating device that a watts link would be used for. And its prolly a very good system. Whether its leaf springs, or a triangulated bar system. What you have in place is tried and proven to work.

A watts link is a type of bandaid to fix a car with a parallel four link that say has a diagonal link or pan hard bar that isint working for the car. Maybe a poor design or a poor use of the suspension for what it was designed for. Both systems, panhard bar and diagonal link, work great for the intended purposes. A diagonal link is better suited for drag racing cars. A panhard bar is well suited for ALL types of road conditions. But it has to be properly designed. If there is a limit on the fitment for a suitable panhard bar then sometimes a watts link will fit the bill.

One system is not "better" than the other. The needs will dictate what system works better.

Now.... Im thinking you have a properly set up rear suspension. But you are needing a "sway bar". I like to call them sway bars, limits the confusion with calling them roll bars. Also anti roll bar or anti sway bar works too.

If you are in need of a sway bar for the rear then you are one the right track. Many older cars didnt have one or one that is too soft for the adjustments we do to the front of the car. Tighten up the front of the car and a look at adding a bar at the rear will help tremendously. JR

[The WidowMaker]

the roll couple changes for a phb depending on the direction of the turn and orientation of the bar mounts. a chassis mounted watts does not. packaging for a watts can be tough, but the triangulation that was going to be required for a phb for my chevelle actually made it more difficult. i went with a watts. plus, its just damn cool looking. :yum:

[JRouche]

a chassis mounted watts does not. packaging for a watts can be tough, but the triangulation that was going to be required for a phb for my chevelle actually made it more difficult. i went with a watts. plus, its just damn cool looking. :yum:

I am with you there. For simplicity I was looking high and low to make a PHB fit. Just wasnt gonna fit. To have a long enough one. The movement of a long PHB interfered with too many other parts. And the watts link was pretty tight. Its like finding that last square inch of room to mount the parts needed. But two swinging shorter bars gave me more clearance than one long single bar of the PHB.

But it does add a lil coolness factor too. I regularly get the question, what is THAT and what does it do? JR

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/e-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/c-3.jpg

[COPO-RAT]

JRouche, I LOVE when you post those pics........I could stare at them for hours!

[JRouche]

JRouche, I LOVE when you post those pics........I could stare at them for hours!

Thanks. It is kinda like spaghetti (all the links) with one meatball in the center huh. Thanks Copo... JR

[Randy67]

Just curious, any good sources for the center pivot part and other watts link parts? I'm putting a three link in my 81 Camaro (CP autox use) and was thinking about putting in a Watts, instead of the panhard bar like I did on my El Camino.

[wicked68]

I find it very useful especially when combined with the front to back adjustment to set my wheels exactly where I want them since I run a variety of tires and wheels on the car.

with a full 4 link you gan side to side and front to back in the wheel well.

You also want to look at the rest of the suspension setup to make sure you have a beefy frame to hold all the components together to the frame of the car so you dont get roll / flex / movement of the components under cornering and acceleration and braking.

[wicked68]

here is an old pic when I was first putting it together

[Bryce]

that looks like TCP's setup?

[Mike Davis]

My intention is to redo the entire frame after this summer. I haven't gotten to drive my car yet so i want to have some fun this summer. When next winter rolls around, i want to drop the frame again and do some mods to it. I want to reinforce it, adding some webbing( totally hijacking some ideas Tim :P).
Thinking something similar to this webbing
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1932-Ford-Frame-Assembly,3437.html

I am not concerned with the floor and trunk pan, so i thought that the watts link was a good idea.

[wicked68]

that looks like TCP's setup?

thats correct

[BrianP]

Just curious, any good sources for the center pivot part and other watts link parts?

The Ford Crown Victoria came with a watt link that pivoted on the axle. You might be able to adapt it.

Here's one that came from a PT Cruiser.
http://www.dormanproducts.com/cgi-bin/vm91corp30r/item-dtl.w?clt=hwrap1&item=905-201&mode=direct

I would go for a nice stout piece as it will be carrying all of your rear ends lateral forces.

[The WidowMaker]

call jim fay at fays2. he supplied jrouche and i with the bell crank.

[JRouche]

call jim fay at fays2. he supplied jrouche and i with the bell crank.

Yup.. Jim makes a really nice pivot and supplies all the needed bearings and spacers, as well as some knowledge and support even though I didnt go with his entire system. And the only reason I didnt go with his entire system was due to fitment issues. I had some parts that were in the way. I borrowed alot of ideas from his system to build my watts link. Here is what I did. You will see alot of Jims ideas in my build. Thanks Jim. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55420&page=2

And really, by the time you buy all the needed parts and make the watts link his package is very cost comparable. So if you can fit his entire watts link in your build then I highly recommend taking a strong look at getting it. JR

[exwestracer]

Mike,
Notice the difference between the 2 setups pictured. JRouche has the more "traditional" mounting with the rocker upright. Wicked68s system has the rocker mounted horizontally at the bottom of the housing.

The rocker pivot point establishes the roll center height (RCH). Therefore Wicked68 would have a much lower RCH with his setup. Better potential traction and tuneability, but needing a beefier rear sway bar. Also, the horizontal setup is limited in travel by the articulation (swing) limit of the Heim joints. The upright setup will offer much greater suspension travel (if needed).

[Mike Davis]

Thanks for all the replies and info. Spent today at the Autorama in Detroit. Might not push to get the car on the road right away, might just do it all the way i want it the first time. Saw soooo many bad ass pro tour cars today.....so many new ideas...and i should be great at laying carbon fiber when this is all over ...:)

[The WidowMaker]

also, JR can adjust his RRCH, and the horizontal watts cannot (at least i havent seen one)