Custom Water/Methanol Injection System

[TheKingOTW]

I started doing some research on adding a water/methanol injection system to my supercharged 572. I will give you a brief overview.

After looking at all the systems that were available on the market, I narrowed it down to AEM and Snow Performance. After numerous emails back and forth with their tech support/sales people, I felt that the Snow Performance system had more to offer and I felt a little more comfortable with what I was buying from Snow. I will say that initially AEM was quick to respond to my email and answered all of my questions and I had to send a few email to Snow to get them to respond. I almost gave up when I finally got an email back. After receiving that first email, they were responsive to all of my questions.

I did not want to use a stock ugly plastic bottle for my methanol tank. While AEM seemed sort of clueless when talking to me about using a different bottle/tank, Snow walked me through the issues I might see. Because methanol eventually turns aluminum chalky, I decided to use “Kreem” tank liner on the new aluminum tank I fabricated for this setup. Kreem tank liner is primarily made for lining motorcycle tanks, but will work on any tank that gas, diesel, alcohol or methanol is stored in. Since my tank is also at the same level as my intake manifold, I needed to use a solenoid so that water/methanol would not be sucked in to my intake, when vacuum is present. AEM did not offer a solenoid option.

My engine has a sheet metal intake. When I had it built, I had 4 - 1/8” NPT nipples added on the underside of the manifold for future use. I guess this new system counts as future use and decided to plumb a dual nozzle setup into the underside of my intake. I used 2 – 375ML Nozzles. Snow was very helpful in assisting me to determine the proper nozzle sizing.

The custom tank I made has a bracket for the pump and separate bracket for the solenoid and controller.

Before this water/methanol injection system, the car made 1015HP. I plan to get it back on the dyno for some additional tuning and will post the results I see from adding this kit within a week or so.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_0251-1.jpg
Before the install

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_0313-1.jpg
Setting up and measuring for the tank and bracket

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Here is the tank with the pump and solenoid brackets.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_0309-1.jpg
This shows another picture of the tank with a whole for the low water/metanol sensor.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/DSCN0321-1.jpg
Here is a picture of the entire tank, pump and solenoid unit installed. You can see the controller mounted on a bracket on the front of the tank.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_0338-1.jpg
Here you can see the "T" connector for the dual nozzle setup underneath the manifold.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_0337-1.jpg
Here you can see 1 of the 2 nozzles going into the underneath of the intake manifold.

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Here is another picture of the tank, unit installed.

[TheKingOTW]

Here is a picture of the entire setup in the car.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/DSCN0318-1.jpg

And for those who might be interested, here is the car.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_0242-1.jpg

[67 ls1 vert]

Pretty cool set up. I like the hood work. Let us know what kind of numbers you get. Like you need any more. :)

[TheKingOTW]

Can you ever have enough Horsepower?

Also, I forgot to mention that the tank holds 2 Gallons. The plastic reservoir that comes with the kit is 3 quarts.

[TheKingOTW]

Just had the car on the Dyno. After making some A/F adjustments, the car picked up about 70HP, making 1085HP.

[monteboy84]

Wow, that's got to be a handful. Thanks for the write-up, looks like a good product.

[TheKingOTW]

A few Updates:

Replaced the mufflers with DynoMax Welded (straight through) and removed the chambered mufflers. Increased the jet size on the dual nozzle meth squirters from 375's to 441's and opened up the back of the fresh air box for better direct air flow.

The car will be hitting the Dyno on Tuesday and I will post updated HP numbers.

[twinturbo69]

Thats a trick setup to feed cool air to your procharger. A little off topic but is the electric fan mounted to the hood for additional coolingto pull the hot air out of the engine? Curious to know how well it has worked for you.

[TheKingOTW]

Thats a trick setup to feed cool air to your procharger. A little off topic but is the electric fan mounted to the hood for additional coolingto pull the hot air out of the engine? Curious to know how well it has worked for you.

The fan itself pulled about 5 degree's out of the temp that the car ran at. It took me from about 195 to 190. It also greatly reduced under hood temps. When I cut the two custom openings in the hood for the cold air box and to let additional heat out, it dropped the normal running temp to about 180 degrees.

[aronhk_md]

Beautiful setup, gorgeous car. I am also adding a meth injection system to the 1973 turbo 455 trans am I just bought. The car did 887 hp to the rear wheels on the dyno at 15 psi, so accounting for a 20% drivetrain loss with the automatic thats 1064 hp at the flywheel. Give or take its still a lot.

The system I just bought was from coolingmist. Its a trunk mount system, 250 psi pump. I too wanted a larger tank, but didnt like anything under the hood.....I have limited space there in the first place. So this unit comes with a 1.5 gallon tank and the pump is mounted on the tank.

David there talked me out of a complex controller. He said unless I was looking for the cool factor, just bring the entire system online at about 65% boost and be done with it. Considering the guy sells controlled systems, and he is the owner, and spent 15 minutes convincing me NOT to spend more money.....I conceded. LOL. I can always add it later.

Very curious what your #'s will be with the larger cc nozzles you are installing. David recommended a 760cc, and a 380cc totalling 1140cc/min for my combo. Sounded like a lot to me, but I too was thinking about maybe just starting with the 760 nozzle, then adding the other to see the difference. Interesting that its so much more than you started with.

Sounds to me like your setup is similar to mine in some ways, and I was expecting a 50-60 hp increase, as well as the added protection in addition to the intercooler to prevent detonation. From your example I think I'm at least inline with those estimates.

Question........what percentage meth were you running on the dyno, and what do you plan to run regularly? Were the #'s on your dyno runs actual rear wheel hp, or corrected for drivetrain?

[gui67]

Where did you mount the nozzles?

Are they located under the manifold, one before the 4 last runners and 1 before the 4 first runners?
If yes, I don't think water will be distributed well: the 4 first cylinders will have less water then the 4 front the back:
THe airflow over the first nozzle is for 8 cylinder, each cylinder will receive 1/8th of the total water injected here, then 1/2 of the air goes to the front cylinders, the second half continues in the manifold where you inject again water which is distributed between 4 cylinders.
each back cylinder(8,7,6 and 5) then receives 1/8 of water from the first nozzle + 1/4 of the water from the second, and front cylinders(1, 2, 3 and 4) only receive 1/8 of the first one.
Or am I missing something?

[TheKingOTW]

Your missing it.

Water/methanol is distributed evenly between all 8 intake runners and cylinders. It only activates under boost and all cylinders receive an equal amount of boost + the water/methanol injection. There are 2 nozzles, placed under the center of the intake evenly placed at 1/3 and 2/3 the length.

If your thinking was correct, then no air would enter the front intake runners due to the pressure of boost, the way it enters from the front of the intake at the throttle body.

Make sense?

[AintQik]

It works. I don't know how you are tuning the engine, but you should be able to run a few more degrees under boost now. We set our tables up to add a few degrees in the boost areas when the meth is installed.

For discussion here, could you describe where the horsepower came from? Was it the injection alone, or was it because you could add a bit more timing and not see detonation with the meth.

Cooler cylinder temps aside, I feel the biggest advantage is the reduction in detonation potential. Its like the old octane boost discussion. Octane boost alone will not give you more horsepower. Curious to see what your results were if you have them. Injection alone vrs. injection and tuning.

rj

[TheKingOTW]

It works. I don't know how you are tuning the engine, but you should be able to run a few more degrees under boost now. We set our tables up to add a few degrees in the boost areas when the meth is installed.

For discussion here, could you describe where the horsepower came from? Was it the injection alone, or was it because you could add a bit more timing and not see detonation with the meth.

Cooler cylinder temps aside, I feel the biggest advantage is the reduction in detonation potential. Its like the old octane boost discussion. Octane boost alone will not give you more horsepower. Curious to see what your results were if you have them. Injection alone vrs. injection and tuning.

rj

I put it back on the Dyno and adjusted the VE table, A/F while under boost. We advanced the timing and now are running a total of about 34 degrees. Without adding timing, the methanol/water injection won't add any power.

[AintQik]

Exactlly what I was hinting at ;)

There are a ton of people who think you just bolt this on and it makes power. I only wanted to make sure it was in the thread here so people can see.

I actually had a kid come and ask for a "E85 tune". I asked him when he planned on converting to E85 and he said he wasn't he just wanted the tune because it makes more power :hammer:

So I was just kind of pushing for you to say it was the added timing that got the power. People search these forums and what we know as second nature gets funny.

Awesome results. I'd like to get your motor specs as my next motor will be something similar.

[MIGOAT]

Man that looks wicked! I had to reply and tell you that....
I added a kit on my old mustang. I used one designed for the GN's and it worked well when adding timing. I had the D1sc PC. However I was missing the extra 241cui.

Great build and I love the car in the garage as well

[70fireturd]

Not to change the subject(but I am) Have you seen a difference in that hood mounted electric fan? I thought about doing something similar with my fender vents.............. Nice work by the way that $h!t is clean.

[TheKingOTW]

Not to change the subject(but I am) Have you seen a difference in that hood mounted electric fan? I thought about doing something similar with my fender vents.............. Nice work by the way that $h!t is clean.

When I added the electric fan in the hood and machined the centers of the factory hood ornaments, I saw about a 5 degree drop in temp. When I added the vents in the hood, one is actually a fresh air inlet for the ProCharger and both let hot air out from under the hood extremely well, I saw an additional 5-7 degrees of temp drop. On a cool day, say 70-75 degrees (that's cool here in Florida) the car runs at about 175 degrees all day. When we get hotter days in the 90-95 degree range, the car runs at 190-195. Even when I drive the car hard, it rarely gets over 200. If it ever does, it means I have been severely running it hard with constant amounts of boost, but it immediately come right back down to operating temperature when I am done pounding on it.

It took a long time to get the cooling on the car right. The 2 major items that made an unbelievable difference were the Ron Davis cross flow radiator, with built in shroud and 2 - 2300cfm Spal Fans and a Meizere 55GPM electric water pump. I would never build another car without using these 2 items for cooling.

[70fireturd]

5-7 degrees temp drop is no joke. That is the first time I have seen a fan mounted like that. I was thinking about utilizing the fender vents on my car to evacuate the engine heat. I found a couple of small 6" fans used to run off solar power for small boat hulls, so its still DC 12V power.

[70fireturd]

man someone should pay me to kill threads. lol

[aronhk_md]

LOL.......thats ok, at least you got a response. I asked him what his results were on the dyno 2nd time around with the bigger nozzle, and got no reply. :lurk:

[TheKingOTW]

LOL.......thats ok, at least you got a response. I asked him what his results were on the dyno 2nd time around with the bigger nozzle, and got no reply. :lurk:

Sorry, I did not see your question. I got a bit more rich condition but we tweaked it out in the VE table. The car is running great now. We picked up about 8HP with the injector upgrade.

[garner67]

Nothing to add, just drooling over your ride. Impressive build.

[aronhk_md]

That is just incredible. Almost 80 hp with the meth/water injection. I can only guess at how mine improved, as I havent had it on the dyno since the methanol was added. Any way I look at it traction is my biggest problem. Even at higher speeds the car is just a handful and the rear end is trying to swap with the front end. Love the safety factor the meth adds on top of the performance gains. Two questions for you.

1 - What meth.water mix percentage did you use on the dyno? I know you mentioned getting a bit rich, and I noticed it some with mine too. Using the -30 windshield washer fluid here.

2 - to achieve those hp gains over your previous NON injection status did you bump up timing? Did you do it the first time with the smaller nozzle AND the second time with the larger? I have an intercooler as well, but my compression is borderline high, and I'm hesitant to bump the timing too much....preferring the added safety of the injection to actually pushing for more hp.

Thanks,
Aron

[TheKingOTW]

That is just incredible. Almost 80 hp with the meth/water injection. I can only guess at how mine improved, as I havent had it on the dyno since the methanol was added. Any way I look at it traction is my biggest problem. Even at higher speeds the car is just a handful and the rear end is trying to swap with the front end. Love the safety factor the meth adds on top of the performance gains. Two questions for you.

1 - What meth.water mix percentage did you use on the dyno? I know you mentioned getting a bit rich, and I noticed it some with mine too. Using the -30 windshield washer fluid here.

2 - to achieve those hp gains over your previous NON injection status did you bump up timing? Did you do it the first time with the smaller nozzle AND the second time with the larger? I have an intercooler as well, but my compression is borderline high, and I'm hesitant to bump the timing too much....preferring the added safety of the injection to actually pushing for more hp.

Thanks,
Aron



The water/meth mixture is always 50/50. I buy the 5 gallon jug of VP methanol and mix it myself. To answer your second question, the only way to get an increase in horsepower when adding a water/methanol injection setup to your ride is by adding timing. The benefit to using this type of injection is to allow you to run as much timing as possible without any pinging. I did start with a smaller twin nozzle setup (375 X 2) and then went up to a pair of 441 squirters.

[aronhk_md]

Yes, I was told that for my setup I should use a 760 nozzle and a 380. So far I'm just sticking with the single 760 though. Mine has the 250 psi recirculating pump, whereas some of the units still for sale only have the 150 psi pressure actuated.

I have seen some reports that indicated no difference in intake charge temp between the 50/50 mixes and the 37/63 mixes like mine, but not really sure what to believe there. Methanol evaporates quicker to help cool, but water is actually capable of taking more heat with it when it DOES evaporate.

I will be playing with the timing, but very conservatively. The car really makes more power than I can normally use already, and its the safety margin on top of the intercooler that means the most to me.

Under 10-15 psi boost right now I'm at an air/fuel ratio of 10.1-10.5, so its a bit on the rich side.....where I prefer it, again for safety. I will lean it out slightly to get it into the upper 10's, and theres some power lurking there I know, but again.....dont really need more on the top, just hoping to pull as hard as possible low down. Someday when I build again I'll shoot for the 2000 hp range, but this motor cant handle much if any more than its making now.

Have you taken yours to the drag strip at all? I'm gonna get mine there before the end of the summer. Hoping to get it into the high 9's, even though its no longer setup as a drag strip car.

[H2Ogbodies]

I mix it 45/45/10 using distilled water, blue washer fluid and HEET. The idea is to give the vapor more flammability and it also acts as an on demand intercooler of sorts for the combustion chamber by reducing sensitivity to detonation. The kit I played around with had an aux. tank with stainless sensors and an autofill for the methonal tank.