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View Full Version : what is a reasonable expectation for a first gen?



SR71
02-12-2010, 06:45 PM
will a first gen on a stock subframe with aftermarket parts and leafs ever be a match for a 4th or 5th gen in the handling department on equal tires? I'm not looking for c6z handling, but would like something formidable.

Yoda4561
02-12-2010, 07:06 PM
Mary Pozzi put on a damn fine showing at the Optima Ultimate street challenge, and with what I understand to be an exceptionally well set up camaro with mostly hotchkis bolt on parts and leaf springs dominated the autocross portion. That field included some of the well known high dollar protouring cars on this site, a Nissan GTR, and other high performance modern vehicles. It's probably more a statement of her driving ability than anything else, but there were many other VERY experienced drivers there with fancier suspensions and newer cars that couldn't keep up.

ProdigyCustoms
02-12-2010, 07:34 PM
Yes you can get the handling, the ride will be a bit harsh though.

Jim Nilsen
02-13-2010, 09:36 AM
Yes you can and the money you save from NOT doing all the expensive mods can be spent at track days,autocrosses and driving school to make you a good driver that will help you more than all the mods you will ever do.
Plus you get to have a lot of fun and be around everyone who has all those cool cars and can drive too. You will never find more helpfull and caring people than the ones at a PT event.

If it runs, bring it on !!!!

SR71
02-13-2010, 06:57 PM
I'm trying to keep this a budget project, but I already have a new set of fatman a-arms and their 2" drop g-force spindles. I got a great deal on these from a guy that was parting out his project. these parts are supposed to give the front much better geometry and correct the bumpsteer. now I just have to decide what springs and shocks to go with front and rear. the problem will be balancing handling vs ride quality as this car will see lots of street miles on c5 size rubber.

Jim Nilsen
02-14-2010, 03:49 PM
I'm trying to keep this a budget project, but I already have a new set of fatman a-arms and their 2" drop g-force spindles. I got a great deal on these from a guy that was parting out his project. these parts are supposed to give the front much better geometry and correct the bumpsteer. now I just have to decide what springs and shocks to go with front and rear. the problem will be balancing handling vs ride quality as this car will see lots of street miles on c5 size rubber.


When it comes to traction and handling tires are everything. Keep that in mind and all other factors can come with the later funds.

Get it all together soon because the season is starting and the parts you have now are more than good enough to have fun.

Events cost money and I can tell you that of all the money I have spent, the event money gave me the most for enjoyment for it. I took way too long thinking the other stuff had to get done first.

Hotchkis
02-15-2010, 11:26 AM
will a first gen on a stock subframe with aftermarket parts and leafs ever be a match for a 4th or 5th gen in the handling department on equal tires? I'm not looking for c6z handling, but would like something formidable.

We've been doing a huge amount of track testing (http://www.hotchkis.net/about_hotchkis.html) recently with stock and modified classic and modern muscle cars (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Make=7&Model=387&SubmitForm=Search). It's amazing how close the numbers are. Here's the times from our most recent test.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

All the cars involved are street driven and the Challenger is even a daily driver, the owner says she hasn't had any complaints about the ride quality.

You can check out all the cars on the Hotchkis Facebook Page (http://http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#%21/album.php?aid=139093&id=188171375072)

RatTouring
02-28-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm doing the same thing with my 1st Gen. Mary Pozzi is incredible to watch and to see how fast she is and easy she makes it look. It's also pretty impressive to see the posted numbers - confirmed my decision to not spend the cash on an after market subframe... Thanks for posting these...

David Pozzi
02-28-2010, 10:40 AM
For a stock subframe 1st gen, your best bet is to get one MFR's kit and stick with that. Hotchkis, DSE, Speed Tech, Global West , SC&C all make good stuff. Tubular A arms with delrin bushings will allow you to get more positive caster, around 5 deg positive works great. 1st gen's don't have enough neg camber gain in bump, so a tall spindle, Guldstrand mod, or tall upper balljoint will help a lot. Bumpsteer is a problem too, so I highly recommend bumpsteering your car. Actually measure your own car after it is aligned, don't copy someone else's fix, it might be wrong for your car.

Tall spindles work but add 1" to 2" of drop, this drop puts the tie rod next to the rim and will limit your front rim width and backspace. Don't think you can put drop spindles on and run any front wheel backspace you want. You need a good PS box to complete the system.

I'm not against a good aftermarket subframe. Benefits are lighter (Corvette) A arms and spindle, rack and pinion, ease of ride height adjustment (coil overs), stiffer frame torsionally, header clearance, probably better camber gain curve.

If you can get close to as much rubber under a first gen, it will be competitive with a 5th gen of equal HP.

RatTouring
02-28-2010, 01:51 PM
Hey David -

Don't want to highjack this post - But I have a question for you - I've gone the route of the stock gen 1 frame, but added the Speed Tech Pro Tour suspension, QA1 coilovers (550lbs) AFX Spindles, Edelbrock billet tie rod coupler, Manual discs - Kore3 C5 325MM Brake Kit, 1" Addco front swaybar and Energy bushings and 3/8" endlinks Forgeline 18x10 and 18x8 wheels with BFG KDW2s 245/40 and 285/40. Rear suspension is a modified 10 bolt with stock replacement monoleaf with QA1 coilver (80lb spring) shock moved to the inside, with an Addco 3/4" sway bar, and Comp Engineering traction bars (Had them for years). Plans are for a new 12 Bolt and Hotchkis multileaf springs and will use the QA1 shocks minus the springs. I prefer the leafs for now over a three or four link. Motor at the wheels makes 500 ft lbs of torque at 5800. Thoughts on this suspension setup?

Taman
02-28-2010, 01:59 PM
The sad thing is Mary could beat me in a Geo Metro and I was driving a Race car.