Safety discussion split from Optima thread

[Yoda4561]

Like a few other peope said - if you can put that much money into your engine and suspension surely you can afford the small amount by comparison to make the car safe and quite frankly I think it enhances the look and value of the car.




Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that. :usa:

[wicked68]

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that. :usa:

dont you have padding on your cages? back seats are tough - dont have much for you on that one / doors are no big deal - use a removable door bar system - I know its not a double x bar welded in but its better than nothing and does pass drag racing standards for most street car speeds

[Yoda4561]

dont you have padding on your cages? back seats are tough - dont have much for you on that one / doors are no big deal - use a removable door bar system - I know its not a double x bar welded in but its better than nothing and does pass drag racing standards for most street car speeds

I own street cars, not track cars. Cages seemed like the most awesome idea ever for a street driven car, increased chassis stiffness, impact and rollover protection in an accident. I wondered why everyone didn't run one on the street since they seemed to make so much sense. After a great deal of reading and asking questions from folks who know better than me, I'm pretty much conviced that unless you want to look like a nascar driver (helmet, restraints... may as well put on a firesuit while you're at it) every time you hop in the car to go to walmart or to work in the morning, cages are just going to get you hurt in most accidents.

That brings us back to this particular event, to me a street car therefore almost excludes the use of a full cage, and I haven't been conviced a roll hoop is a real safety device on these cars either. A harness without a cage is also an accident waiting to happen apparently. The methods to build a safe street car, and a safe track car do not always follow the same lines. The whole attraction of the event is that these are street cars, stuff that can be driven on a daily basis if the owner is so inclined, modern corvettes and nissan GTR's and the like alongside PT cars that can hang with them.

[wicked68]

The methods to build a safe street car, and a safe track car do not always follow the same lines. The whole attraction of the event is that these are street cars, stuff that can be driven on a daily basis if the owner is so inclined, modern corvettes and nissan GTR's and the like alongside PT cars that can hang with them.

so then you are saying that you should not drive a car that is safe for speed on the track on the street and as such then you should not drive a car that is safe for the street at speed on the track?

I dont necessarily agree that it is unsafe to drive a car with a padded cage on the street but mine is not a daily driver so I have not looked at that in depth other than to make sure my halo bars within striking distance of your noggin are padded.

I would definately not run one though unless you have gone to one piece seats preferrably with a seat back brace to minimize spinal injuries from rear collisions. I would also use smaller diameter chromolly bars and have a competent fabricator install them to keep them right up agains the upper door rail and roof line away from your head. Install sfi padding as well. Use a seat that has shoulder tabs on it to minimize side to side body movement and use a 5 point seat harness.

I also would not run at 130 mph on a track without this as it is more dangerous (popular opinion) with a 3 point belt and a stock seat and no roll bar.

[Yoda4561]

so then you are saying that you should not drive a car that is safe for speed on the track on the street and as such then you should not drive a car that is safe for the street at speed on the track?

I dont necessarily agree that it is unsafe to drive a car with a padded cage on the street but mine is not a daily driver so I have not looked at that in depth other than to make sure my halo bars within striking distance of your noggin are padded.

No that's not what I'm saying, to put it as best I can, streetcars don't need cages and harnesses and whatnot, if someone wants to run them that's their buisness, but a reasonably safe streetcar challenge event shouldn't require their use. The technical details I'll leave to the people responsible. I think if we want to continue the safety discussion it should be in a new thread, I'm not going to comment anymore in this one about it.

I loved the watching the event, and I'd like to see it continue (maybe with expanded coverage... way more fun than watching prepped track cars go loopty loop all day long) If it becomes more competitive class restrictions based on weight would be a great idea, otherwise just keep it an open playing field, and require that the car be registered and tagged for street use.

[hotrdblder]

whats the difference if you hit your head on a padded cage, or the steel roof in your hot rod? not much, either way it will get squashed, a properly installed cage with padding only add safety and easy street driving, you just need a cage builder who knows how to build a cage, sometimes its not the easy way,.

[wicked68]

No that's not what I'm saying, to put it as best I can, streetcars don't need cages and harnesses and whatnot, if someone wants to run them that's their buisness, but a reasonably safe streetcar challenge event shouldn't require their use. The technical details I'll leave to the people responsible. I think if we want to continue the safety discussion it should be in a new thread, I'm not going to comment anymore in this one about it.

I loved the watching the event, and I'd like to see it continue (maybe with expanded coverage... way more fun than watching prepped track cars go loopty loop all day long) If it becomes more competitive class restrictions based on weight would be a great idea, otherwise just keep it an open playing field, and require that the car be registered and tagged for street use.

actually that is a great idea to split some of this to a safety thread

I have already picked up a few things I am addign to my car as a result of the discussion (seat back brace)

[PT Sportwagon]

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that. :usa:
:idea::idea:It is called a 4 door wagon, :naughty::naughty:

Tim

[Danny Thomas]

Your missing the point. This event is more than trying to make it fair for our PT type cars to compete against the likes of the Cobra and or pro drivers. It is about the journey and the bonds/friends you meet along the way. Making it some over governed rule heavy race will just take away from the intent and turn most people off.

I for one will be there each and every year they let me to try and close that gap between Mary and the Cobra.

Not sure why you made the comment about Mary having to apologize for being talented. She was well within the rules and is a great asset to this sport.

X2:drive1:

[Blitz]

???

[wicked68]

anyone use a seat brace that is hard mounted to the harness bar but not to the seat and has padding between it and the seat to absorb shock?

[NOT A TA]

I don't think thats allowed by any sanctioning bodies. There are adjustable seat back braces so the seat sliders can work but nothing with shock absorbing material. Since the seat should not be hinged any movement of the seatback during impact might allow the bolts holding the seat to sliders or the floor to be broken or ripped out. Also movement of the seatback in relation to the harness bar would allow the shoulder harnesses to loosen at the moment of impact during a rear impact. .

[wicked68]

I don't think thats allowed by any sanctioning bodies. There are adjustable seat back braces so the seat sliders can work but nothing with shock absorbing material. Since the seat should not be hinged any movement of the seatback during impact might allow the bolts holding the seat to sliders or the floor to be broken or ripped out. Also movement of the seatback in relation to the harness bar would allow the shoulder harnesses to loosen at the moment of impact during a rear impact. .


thanks for the clarification. good point.

[barraza]

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that. :usa:

There are definitely issues on the street with cages, but how big of a problem are they? No one seems to have any data, just conjecture. You absolutely don't want your head contacting a bar, but how much more dangerous is a bar than the steel reinforced top structure? No one that I can find has done any tests.

Some cars could easily keep a cage outside the potential head impact area, some can't. Ever wonder why most race car drivers tend to be little guys? I can barely fit in a 2010 camaro without a helmet, there would be no chance of me racing one with a cage.

I think the minimum for road course events where speeds got as high as they did at the optima challenge should be a 4 point bar, racing seat and 5 pt harness. It could even be a bolt in bar. The total cost would be minuscule, compared with the other costs involved

[John Wright]

I'm on the fence about the roll bar in a street car....I like the idea of chassis stiffness and such, but I don't want to have to wear a helment to drive on the street...that would be against the law here in Va anyway. I don't want a busted melon either, nor to have one of my kids injured from riding in the back seat and faceplanting into that rear bar behind the driver's seat during a quick stop.

[hotrdblder]

with a roll bar comes 4/5 point harness's, and other safety items, if your in the car, the harness is on, if you have kids install harness's inthe back seat, not only will the cage protect you more, but you will not be thrown about in the car in an accident.

what do you think happens to your kids in back with a lap belt on, and a front or rear impact?

cage it, pad it correctly and install harness's. cam lock harness's probably take 8 seconds more to put on then a reg seat belt

[Vegas69]

Who wants to drive around on the street locked into your seat? I knew I would only use the lap belt so I opted for my own 3 point setup. If I decide I need race belts then I'll have both.

[The Stickman]

:idea::idea:It is called a 4 door wagon, :naughty::naughty:

Tim


Hey I resemble that remark.:idea:. I actually thought the best solution for me as I have a wagon is a cage that is behind me. Basically a rollbar behind me so I can safely use a harness. And a rollbar behind the rear seats for the rear passengers so they have more than lap belts. And then connect them with bars. And have down tubes angled front from the front bar and rear from the rear bar. This way I won't slap my head in a side impact on a cage. And I rarely if ever carry rear passengers so they would still have ease of access but would still have to deal with the overhead bars.

[Mkelcy]

I've always taken Chicane67's advice on cage kits in street cars to heart: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=384672&postcount=8 And I think a lot of his points likely apply to any caged car on the street.

In relevant part:


Under high G loading the human body becomes a rag doll and is uncontrollably limp... and its limp enough to stretch and contort beyond your imagination. If you feel that you can over ride the physics involved... you have just become my hero.

The problem with kit cages is... that with the already limited space in your interior... it becomes even more sparse. And unless you are sitting 10 inches away from any tube, padded or not, and/or you are strapped in correctly... my bet is that your head will crack open like an egg. Custom cages can be built with this in mind and you can put tubes in places where no kit cage could even think about. You can maximize driver space because you do not have to follow the confines of the particular kit design. And believe me... even an inch difference can make the difference between life and death.

Now the misconception about padding. What do you really think the padding is really for ?? And how much energy do you think an inch of multi density foam (not to mention the junk sold without SFI cert) can really absorb when one of your body parts has been uncontrollably accelerated toward it at 65+G ?? FWIW... the padding is for low speed impact... not 65+G. (65G is about the common impact G load of typical accident.)

Unless you are in a full containment seat wearing your helmet and having your belts cinched down properly... I can pretty much guarantee the individual will sustain some injury outside that of a "fender bender". Does the idea of a better seat and restraints improve your chances ?? Yup... it sure does. That is the whole idea behind full containment seating and the newer materials being used in restraints. If your head, rib cage and legs are surrounded with minimal gap... your body has less room to accelerate and less probability of injury.

I'd love the chassis stiffening a cage could provide, but I won't risk my life while driving to the track for it.

[hotrdblder]

lol, if you get in a bad enough accident where you contort and wack your head on the roof etc, then with a cage or no cage your gonna be hurt bad, period.
No harness's on track days is stupid, flailing around in your car trying to use steering wheel as leverage, not smart and def not fast, when i race i have the lightest touch on the steering wheel, when you do endurance racing etc you learn how to be easy and smooth on the wheel or you will wear yourself out in 25 mins driving 9/10th, 10/10ths been there done that.

[Jim Nilsen]

I'm on the fence about the roll bar in a street car....I like the idea of chassis stiffness and such, but I don't want to have to wear a helment to drive on the street...that would be against the law here in Va anyway. I don't want a busted melon either, nor to have one of my kids injured from riding in the back seat and faceplanting into that rear bar behind the driver's seat during a quick stop.

So if I get this right, you have to wear a helmet for a motorcycle in Va. but you can't wear one while driving your car?

[John Wright]

Jim, I'm not certain of the reasoning.
Periphial vision slightly impaired? I dunno, just a guess.
Helmets are mandatory for motorcycle riders though...LOL

[Jim Nilsen]

I've always taken Chicane67's advice on cage kits in street cars to heart: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=384672&postcount=8 And I think a lot of his points likely apply to any caged car on the street.

In relevant part:



I'd love the chassis stiffening a cage could provide, but I won't risk my life while driving to the track for it.

It would be impossible to drive my car from home to the track and be safe at the track. You can't go on the long hauls at events either if you have a caged car in your opinion.
They make SFI approved padding that is the only way to go. In the test I have read ,the regular foam padding mostly sold everywhere will give no more protection than the bar itself in a hard impact. It will just split and is only good for parking and looks. The SFI padding will slow the impact down according to the force applied, a lot of physics invloved in good padding.

I am also with Jake on the fact that the roof sides will be as hard and as dangerous as the cage bar, you also have more time to gain impact speed the farther from your head and regular car belts are not as good as harness belts. When an accident happens you never know how and when and what angle it will come from. I believe hands down that the cars with cages and the correct belts are safer no matter what. if they weren't they wouldn't be required by the racing sanctioning bodies.

I have hit my head on my vent windows but I still won't remove them. I have hit my head on the roof while getting in my car several times over my 52 years but I don't cut it off. Not paying attention and being careless is the biggest safety issue of all no matter what you do or have. Drive defensively and you will avoid being hit, I have stopped at green lights to avoid the guy that ran the red one, everyone in the car asked why I was stopping until the idiot went thru.
Pay attention and be sensible, if I worried about things as much as some of you are ,I wouldn't leave the house and would slip and fall in my non handicapped approved bath tub and shower. Those bars in the bathroom are like a cage in your car when safety is concerned, think about it ? Do you think you shouldn't put them in because you might hit your head on them?

[Jim Nilsen]

Jim, I'm not certain of the reasoning.
Periphial vision slightly impaired? I dunno, just a guess.
Helmets are mandatory for motorcycle riders though...LOL

The people who made the law just couldn't handle the racing look and just had to think you were up to no good.:bsjerk:

[Jim Nilsen]

Chicanes thread is about improperly installed cages,seat restraints and improper padding more than anything else. Read it closer and interpret it for what it really says. It is very good knowledgeable advice to consider when having a cage in a street car and does not imlpy that a street car should not have a cage.

[Mkelcy]

They make SFI approved padding that is the only way to go. In the test I have read ,the regular foam padding mostly sold everywhere will give no more protection than the bar itself in a hard impact. It will just split and is only good for parking and looks. The SFI padding will slow the impact down according to the force applied, a lot of physics invloved in good padding.

From the Pegasus Auto Racing Supply site:


Note: SFI-rated foam padding is designed to prevent a helmeted head from contacting a solid object. It is very stiff and does not give except in hard impacts.Emphasis added.

If I wanted to be safe, as you've apparently determined, I wouldn't drive a 40 year old car with, at best, poor crash worthiness. I'm not trying to avoid risk, I'm trying to avoid what, in my opinion, is stupid risk.

I've watched some crash videos since this thread started and remain convinced that hard metal tubing within a foot or so of my helmetless head isn't a good idea. You've reached a contrary conclusion.

[Jim Nilsen]

From the Pegasus Auto Racing Supply site:

Emphasis added.

If I wanted to be safe, as you've apparently determined, I wouldn't drive a 40 year old car with, at best, poor crash worthiness. I'm not trying to avoid risk, I'm trying to avoid what, in my opinion, is stupid risk.

I've watched some crash videos since this thread started and remain convinced that hard metal tubing within a foot or so of my helmetless head isn't a good idea. You've reached a contrary conclusion.

I've lived life long enough to know I would rather die from a car accident than at the hands of doctors and cancer. I just lived a good healthy life and all of a sudden it was there like a traffic accident.
I have been in a few accidents in cars and on bikes and can tell you that it would have made no difference if I had a cage or not I would not have hit my head.
If the accident is that bad I would rather be dead than live a miserable life at the hands of doctors!!!

BAD ATTITUDE? maybe but it is my life. My doctors told me I was signing my own death sentence when I stopped treatments early. they couldn't see the cancer anymore, didn't know how come it left so quickly and never took into account the self treatments I gave myself as any possiblilty that it might have been that. My family doctor told me I was one smart guy to listen to my body and my own reasoning because they were slowly killing me to kill the cancer. I am much smarter and healthier than they wanted me to be when they were done about both life and what can happen. Live life ,don't fear it. Do what you can to be safer and that doesn't always mean that it doesn't contain risk.

I have the cage because it really holds the car together and will protect me better from lower level accidents more than none at all. It is also required in some classes of racing when the speeds are high. And as far as the SFI padding you bet it is hard but it is safer and I will be wearing a helmet as required when that time probably comes.

We could debate this forever with all types of logic , maybe I have already hit my head too many times in cars without cages but the bottom line is to be careful or stupid stuff and uncaring people will get you.

When the wife rolled the S15 pickup she hit her head on the rear view mirror and the roof and pillar damn near hit her the shoulder harnes damn near tore her apart. If there would have been a cage as good as the one in my car and the harness would have been as good she would have been better off. I worked with a guy who saw a pickup truck shoulder harness take a guys head off, he won't wear a shoulder harness for anyone now. He has been ticketed and goes to court with the eveidence and the judges let him go.

I've said enough I hope for everyone to make their own choice and the smart choice is the one you can live with in the end.

[Jim Nilsen]

Wouldn't it be great if someone came out with a padding for street use cars that was both SFI padding inside a softer more functional outside for no helmet impacts ?

It really seems that there might be enough people to market such a product now?

[NOT A TA]

You guys may find the discussion about street driven cars with cages/bars and the multiple types of SFI rated padding including dual density SFI available in this thread interesting. http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/articleinfo-request-roll-bar-in-a-street-car/14131/page1/

[Yoda4561]

Wouldn't it be great if someone came out with a padding for street use cars that was both SFI padding inside a softer more functional outside for no helmet impacts ?

It really seems that there might be enough people to market such a product now?

A market maybe, but without significant (expensive) crash testing I doubt any manufacturer wants to take the risk of a lawsuit by marketing "street safe roll bar padding".

[Jim Nilsen]

A market maybe, but without significant (expensive) crash testing I doubt any manufacturer wants to take the risk of a lawsuit by marketing "street safe roll bar padding".

I was thinking street friendly not street safe. There is nothing really at risk legally with all the disclaimers they put on everything we already have. Making the streets safe in any vehicle would require a whole lot more than just equipment for cars, operators are the biggest cause of accidents in cars just like guns and any other dangerous equipment.

I would just be nice to not have to improvise on our own and make it more tidy, I can most certainly add any kind of padding over the top of the SFI pad to make it more exit and entry friendly.

Impact testing is pretty much straight forward as a drop ball and g meters.Not really high tech or that expensive for a big player in the game.

[wicked68]

this post from the grassroots site was pretty funny

"
In reply to JeepinMatt:
You're joking Matt.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/laugh18-1.png Despite being the owner/driver of both a 1/2 caged E30 M3(no back seat occupants) and 1/2 caged 7clone as streetable track rats, I'm going to be thinking "OMG! an unsafe caged yellow CJ!" when it is occupied by a single shirtless young male driver and 3 Nubile bikini'd females. It transcends this discussion.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/laugh18-1.png
m"

[wicked68]

I am definately going to mount a seatback brace in my car after all this reading. I am also going to go back and make sure it is very properly mounted at the base and correctly also.

I may start using a small bump cap or non full faced helmet if I drive it on the street - which I dont do too much of anyway.

I think realistically the cars that are really nice anyway are not invovled in day to day accidents in traffic like most cars - they are driven more carefully and drivers around them are more cognizant of them as well which would reduce their collision risk.

[Yoda4561]

Normally true, but it only takes one time, and sometimes unavoidable even if you're paying attention. Taking reasonable steps to minimize injury in the event that happens is always a good thing, it's just that some folks have different ideas of reasonable :enguard: This thread has warmed me up a little to a 4 point roll bar with that 2 layer padding, maybe even a harness setup for track use (along with 3 points for daily driving) If I do that though I'll definately need to look into safer, non-back breaking seats:eek:

[Jim Nilsen]

Normally true, but it only takes one time, and sometimes unavoidable even if you're paying attention. Taking reasonable steps to minimize injury in the event that happens is always a good thing, it's just that some folks have different ideas of reasonable :enguard: This thread has warmed me up a little to a 4 point roll bar with that 2 layer padding, maybe even a harness setup for track use (along with 3 points for daily driving) If I do that though I'll definately need to look into safer, non-back breaking seats:eek:

Matt, bowtie67 has both 3 point and harneses in his 69 Camaro and it was really nice for the ride to and from RTTH5. Not having the restraint to move for things and the ability to know it would lock up when needed is all in the way comfort comes to the Pro-Touring part.

I really liked the Jeep thoughts.
Having ridden in a very capable cornering fiberglass Jeep with no doors or top and just that 4 point makes the seat belt seem ,well kind of scary. The guy who owned it (all steel before the crash)drove it off a cliff in the fog and he was thrown from it thru a bikini top because he wasn't wearing his belt. It was a one in a million chance but if he had the belt on he would have been dead. The windsheild was smashed down to the hood and the roll bar was bent down to the lowback seat. If he would have been in the seat, oh boy. It was one in a million but it makes you wonder that if it was his time to go he would have been strapped in. I was always thinking that if the Jeep rolled on its side I could have seen my head bounce off the road. It is a lot like a motorcycle where you sometimes want to get as far from that thing as possible when you go down and sometimes it is better to stay with it. You have to decide in a split second.

Best thing is don't get in accidents and remember when it is your time to go you will have no control over it. That's why so many people survive suicide, an accident you make happen.

Crazy world when you come right down to it !

I think most all of us are doing the best we can for ourselves to be as safe as possible and the tech guys will make sure of it at the track, but it is up to us on the street.

May God be with us all when accidents happen.

Don't drive in fog ever if you can help it!!!

:cheers:

[Jim Nilsen]

this post from the grassroots site was pretty funny

"
In reply to JeepinMatt:
You're joking Matt.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/laugh18-1.png Despite being the owner/driver of both a 1/2 caged E30 M3(no back seat occupants) and 1/2 caged 7clone as streetable track rats, I'm going to be thinking "OMG! an unsafe caged yellow CJ!" when it is occupied by a single shirtless young male driver and 3 Nubile bikini'd females. It transcends this discussion.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/laugh18-1.png
m"


I'm thinking at that point, Safe sex might save your life sooner,lol

[NOT A TA]

Matt, bowtie67 has both 3 point and harneses in his 69 Camaro and it was really nice for the ride to and from RTTH5. Not having the restraint to move for things and the ability to know it would lock up when needed is all in the way comfort comes to the Pro-Touring part.

It is a lot like a motorcycle where you sometimes want to get as far from that thing as possible when you go down and sometimes it is better to stay with it. You have to decide in a split second.

Best thing is don't get in accidents and remember when it is your time to go you will have no control over it. That's why so many people survive suicide, an accident you make happen.

Crazy world when you come right down to it !

I think most all of us are doing the best we can for ourselves to be as safe as possible and the tech guys will make sure of it at the track, but it is up to us on the street.

May God be with us all when accidents happen.

Don't drive in fog ever if you can help it!!!

:cheers:

I think you're right about some of the people trying to build safe cars Jim. However there's a lot of people who want the performance capabilities and looks but don't want the inconvienence or expense of safety equipment. They can't actually compete at dragstrips or sanctioned Land Speed events because they can't pass tech. They're gonna test their cars limits on the street in a less controlled environment where the risks and consequences are much higher. Funny how they buy the newest coolest wheels but say they can't afford a rollbar.

The general rule of thumb is 5-6 point harness with solid seat and roll bar/cage---or----3-4 point harness/belt with hinged seats even if the seats are heavily bolstered and refered to as "racing" seats with no cage/bar. Mixing creates opportunity for increased injuries.

If you have a bar or cage you don't want the seat to break like a hinged seat is supposed to do and you don't want to be able to move far enough for your head to strike the tubing. A three point with a bar or cage will allow your body to fly around in the car too much striking the tubing. Some guys run a 4 point harness with ASM with no bar and hinged seats at track events to hold them in the seat better and a 3 point on the street for ease of egress and more movement to turn around while backing etc.

Arm and leg restraints are required at a lot of events (LSR) starting at about 135 MPH because arms and legs break when they smack the tubing. Thats why the cars have padding anywhere the limbs could hit when the harness streatches on impact. Also at that speed point door nets, fire systems, race suits, etc. are also required.

Tech at most of the events I've been to isn't as thorough as you'd think they would be. I'm in slow classes or entry level driver education stuff. HPDEs at road courses require you to do your own vehicle inspection prior to showing up at the track and they usually check your helmet date and give your car a quick once over at tech inspection looking for blatant stuff. If your car is street safe you're good at HPDEs except converts which need a bar. Sanctioned Land Speed Races are more thorough and they spend more time examining things. If you're going to someplace like the ECTA get their book and make sure you understand whats necessary if you plan on going over 135 MPH. The unsanctioned Land Speed Races I've been going to they glance at my car from 20' away, check my helmet date, (they don't have any real tech rules)and let everyone whatever speeds they can. Drag races I've been to have been from one extreme to the other. Some inspectors have made safety recommendations (which I did after the race) and only once did I get booted by tech (no neutral safety switch) which I fixed at the track and then ran.

I had motorcycles for most of my life and raced BMX. I've never rode out a slide on a motorcycle but I've ditched a couple dirtbikes. Crashed BMX bikes a lot racing,streetriding, and dirt jumping, worst was a busted spleen. Crashed my mountain bike on the street last night, no safety equipment because I was "only" going over to the machine shop. Was fooling around wheelieing at speed doing "bump jumps" on driveway ramps and hit something in the dark. No helmet, pads, or gloves. Luckily, I didn't smack my head but my palms are raw with roadrash. I'm an idiot. I know better, never ride without the protective equipment! I'm getting too old to be crashing on tar without equipment (might break a hip!). It's when you least expect things to happen that they do.

Thats why you need to be very cautious on the street in the cars prepped for track use. It's easy to let your guard down a little. On track you're very attentive to everything thats happening and there's no cell phones, stereos, etc to distract your concentration. On the track you're focused on mirrors, corner workers, gauges, and you're going very fast. Driving on the street seems so slow and boring in comparison that it's easy to let your guard down just like I did on my mountain bike last night.

[jackfrost]

The general rule of thumb is 5-6 point harness with solid seat and roll bar/cage---or----3-4 point harness/belt with hinged seats even if the seats are heavily bolstered and refered to as "racing" seats with no cage/bar.

this seems like a pretty good guideline.

but, is there such a thing as a 3 or 4 points harness that can be correctly installed withOUT a harness bar?

[Yoda4561]

3 points are factory lap and shoulder belts, I think there's the schroth(somethingorother) that's doesn't require a bar.

[Jim Nilsen]

I found this and thought I would post it.

www.apexperformance.net (http://www.apexperformance.net)

They have dual durometer roll bar padding from BSCI.

looks like the ticket for the street and track.