alcon vs. others

[64malibu]

has anyone put alcon 6 pistons on anything?

[NOGO]

The Roush Mustangs used to have them as an option (Im not sure if they do anymore).

[MuscleRodz]

Baer top of the line used to be Alcon until they started making their 6S caliper in house.

[64malibu]

so they are just as good as baer?

[ProdigyCustoms]

The Wilwood W6A Calipers are awesome, Compete with the biggest brake names in the world, and cost way less.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
The infamous MotiV8r

[silver69camaro]

so they are just as good as baer?

I don't really consider them in the same league.

If you are building a serious track car...with a big emphasis on serious...the Alcons are a good choice. Otherwise, save yourself the money and buy a good set of Wilwoods. I'm with Frank on the W6A's, they're very nice.

[vintageracer]

If you are willing to "cobble" a brake system together try some of the resellers of slightly used one owner Nascar parts in NC. There are LOT'S of brake calipers in every configuration you can imagine.

A little negotiating goes a long way on price. Remember this stuff has already been paid for once!

Now I know everyone will wonder about my use of the word "cobble". In some cases you will have to be creative in making mounting brackets and choosing rotors. Just remember that most of this stuff is for 15 inch wheels that Nascar runs.

Wilwood, Brembo, Alcon, they all are laying all over the shelves in these reseller's stores.

Depending upon your budget and project is "may" be worth a look!

[64malibu]

right about the used brakes in nc I got a set of rear 4 piston h-types for cheappppppp

[TitoJones]

I'm going to go against the common thought here and say I love my Alcons. I run a 4 piston version with light track pads on my daily driver. The pads are very squeaky, super dusty, but the performance is amazing. I'm more worried that the guy behind me will rear end me than I am about not stopping in time.

I also feel that Baer, Alcon, AP, and Brembo are worlds better on a track car than any of the 6 piston Wilwood setups. Bad Penny had some serious brake fade on his Wilwood brakes on the track at Gingerman and it got upgraded to the new 6 piston Baer calipers on all 4 corners. The One Lap Camaro is running AP Racing 6 piston/4 piston setup and the performance on that will slow the earth's rotation.

Tyler

[Payton King]

pad compound and heat more than caliper type. He was running a BP-20 pad that did not have the heat rating for what he was doing on the open track. A "B" or an "H" pad would have made a world of difference.

I do not have a dog in this fight, just making a statement as to why there was fade. All of the above are good choices with varying costs of entry.

[hemicuda]

After oning wilwood on ALL of my nascar modifieds I would say that wilwood is second to NONE!!!Bear,BRENBO ,and alcon would not last a weekend on our cars.The fastest type of racing,nascar cup cars ALL run wilwood.3600lb cars,200mph and out of 48 cars,47run wilwood.Alcon,bear and brembo are WAY OVER PRICED for a moderate part.Brembo is an or was italian brake company that used to make the brake for fiat.That tells you something about them!Wilwood has been around the longest,bulids the best IN THE WORLD and stands behind their product!When we tried alcons on our modified,they blew apart!After one race,they were squeaking and dripping fluid.We ripped them off and put backon the wilwood calipers.This car bad penny,did he have the right pads on the car?Did he have the correct rotors to match the pads?Is he running the right master cyclinder?I own a 1999 camaro ss with 6piston wilwood/14"rotor front and 13" rotor 4 piston calipers in the rear and we beat the shi- out of it and NEVER ,EVER had fade!!I see all these protouring cars and with out it seeing like I am bashing people or some companies,I wonder how many people have the wrong parts mis matched to there cars so the seem cool looking!We all are gulity of wanting to put big brakes on our cars with this illusion that they will stop better.On my ss,we ran some cheap cross drilled and slotted rotors and real good hawk pads ,then switched to the wilwood system and I truly believe the car did not improve that much that is worth talking about.The Idea of stopping with these cars is to get the heat out of the pad AND GASSES out of the contact area.This is orrealevant weather it is 10 " or 18".Some nascar teams were trying out carbon fiber and kevlar and saw big improvements.On a 12"rotor.not 14 or bigger but a smaller one.I have a frind of mine who is buliding a 1984 gmc indy hauler truck and is running wilwood d-52 calipers(bolts on where factory was.same spindle)with bear rotors in front with hawk pads,in the rear CROSS DRILLED BRAKE DRUMS.........thats right cross drilled with carbon fiber pressed brake shoes.In other words factory type system,disc-drum.I will bet he will stop as good if not the same with his than me with mine.this all come from years of racing north east modifieds.But just a thought?????????????????????????????????????

[hemicuda]

I will and could stop the earth with 11"rotors and cheap pads if YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!:machine::machine::machine:

[hemicuda]

sorry for some words on my answers but i can not see too much with out my glasses.sorry!!

[TitoJones]

After *owning* wilwood on ALL of my nascar modifieds I would say that wilwood is second to NONE!!! *Baer Brembo* ,and alcon would not last a weekend on our cars. The fastest type of racing,nascar cup cars ALL run wilwood.3600lb cars,200mph and out of 48 cars,47run wilwood.Alcon,*Baer* and brembo are WAY OVER PRICED for a moderate part.Brembo is an or was italian brake company that used to make the brake for fiat.That tells you something about them!Wilwood has been around the longest, *builds* the best IN THE WORLD and stands behind their product!When we tried alcons on our modified,they blew apart!After one race,they were squeaking and dripping fluid.We ripped them off and put backon the wilwood calipers.- All * are spelling corrections by me.

You are joking me right?

Which of these 2 Florida based tracks use more brakes?

Sebring for 12 hours straight:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Or Daytona for 3 hours straight?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Wilwood being on NASCAR has f*ck all to do with good braking on a circle track. You think think that they use the brakes even 1/8 as much as a LMS car does?
Go look at every race winning 24 LeMans car. You know what they all have in common? Not one of them use Wilwood, and they almost all use Brembo and AP.

Any ALMS car will use the brakes 300% harder than any NASCAR racing car will including the road course tracks. You are also comparing the full race caliper and rotor from the Wilwood line that has no dust boots, no seals, carbon rotors, and race only pads. Even with that comparison, the Brembo/AP line will dominate those with comparable compounds. As to your statement about Wilwood being in it longer than Brembo- Not even close. 1961 is when Brembo started this game; That's 49 years. Wilwood? Just coming up on 30 years.

Please post part numbers and a picture of this exploded Alcon caliper you used. I have to see this first hand.


This car bad penny,did he have the right pads on the car?Did he have the correct rotors to match the pads?Is he running the right master cyclinder?I own a 1999 camaro ss with 6piston wilwood/14"rotor front and 13" rotor 4 piston calipers in the rear and we beat the shi- out of it and NEVER ,EVER had fade!! On my ss,we ran some cheap cross drilled and slotted rotors and real good hawk pads ,then switched to the wilwood system and I truly believe the car did not improve that much that is worth talking about.

Did he have the 'right' pads on the car? Probably not ideal, no. But every other part was up to speed, tested, and sorted on a track. The car has won many events, is driven harder than most any car on this site and is well documented.

You stated that you beat the sh*t out of your 4th gen. What track do you take it to? What times were you posting at said track? Please tell me how you managed to run crossdrilled rotors without them cracking or failing on a car you put through the paces so regularly. Am I getting your statement right that you had Hawk pads and aftermarket rotors on an otherwise factory 4th gen Camaro brake system (2 piston front, single piston rear) and after installing 6 piston/4 piston Wilwoods that it was nearly identical, or so marginal it barely warrants a mention? Hell, I'm sold on it then.


I have a frind of mine who is buliding a 1984 gmc indy hauler truck and is running wilwood d-52 calipers(bolts on where factory was.same spindle)with bear rotors in front with hawk pads,in the rear CROSS DRILLED BRAKE DRUMS.........thats right cross drilled with carbon fiber pressed brake shoes.In other words factory type system,disc-drum.I will bet he will stop as good if not the same with his than me with mine.this all come from years of racing north east modifieds.But just a thought?????????????????????????????????????


Oh my god. Cross drilled DRUMS? Tell your buddy to stop building anything that rolls on a public highway. Better yet, post a picture of that. I want to make fun of it on Corner-Carvers with my assh*le friends.


There is a reason Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, ZR1 Corvettes, and many other super cars run Brembo as factory equipment, and it isn't because they suck.

Tyler

[67bird]

Not to jack the thread, but Tyler would you happen to know the part numbers for the AP stuff that One Lap is using?

[TitoJones]

Fronts are AP6000S and rears are AP6050S.

Tyler

[jknight16]

Wow, there are so many inaccuracies and unfounded statements in there I wouldn't even know where to start.

Back to the OP's question, we don't see a lot of Alcon 6 piston calipers with Baer and Wilwood's competing 6 piston calipers being generally more affordable. But if you wanted to use the Alcons, I'm sure they would be at least as effective as their more affordable competitors. The AP and Brembo stuff is the bees knees.

[Matt@BOS]

At the end of the day, as other here have demonstrated, all of the various applications are quite capable. I suppose what I'm getting at is, what is your target use? and what are you willing to put up with on the street.

I've got a set of 4 piston APs on my Mustang, and like Tyler's Alcons they squeak, and make more dust than I ever thought possible, but they do stop incredibly well. I don't think that AP and Alcon have the same variety of pads to choose from though, but I haven't looked too hard. So, if pad selection, clean wheels, and quiet brakes that still stop well on the street are your primary concern, maybe look towards Baer, 6Ps that use regular C6 pads.

Matt

[wendell]

After oning wilwood on ALL of my nascar modifieds I would say that wilwood is second to NONE!!!Bear,BRENBO ,and alcon would not last a weekend on our cars.The fastest type of racing,nascar cup cars ALL run wilwood.3600lb cars,200mph and out of 48 cars,47run wilwood.Alcon,bear and brembo are WAY OVER PRICED for a moderate part.Brembo is an or was italian brake company that used to make the brake for fiat.That tells you something about them!Wilwood has been around the longest,bulids the best IN THE WORLD and stands behind their product!When we tried alcons on our modified,they blew apart!After one race,they were squeaking and dripping fluid.We ripped them off and put backon the wilwood calipers.This car bad penny,did he have the right pads on the car?Did he have the correct rotors to match the pads?Is he running the right master cyclinder?I own a 1999 camaro ss with 6piston wilwood/14"rotor front and 13" rotor 4 piston calipers in the rear and we beat the shi- out of it and NEVER ,EVER had fade!!I see all these protouring cars and with out it seeing like I am bashing people or some companies,I wonder how many people have the wrong parts mis matched to there cars so the seem cool looking!We all are gulity of wanting to put big brakes on our cars with this illusion that they will stop better.On my ss,we ran some cheap cross drilled and slotted rotors and real good hawk pads ,then switched to the wilwood system and I truly believe the car did not improve that much that is worth talking about.The Idea of stopping with these cars is to get the heat out of the pad AND GASSES out of the contact area.This is orrealevant weather it is 10 " or 18".Some nascar teams were trying out carbon fiber and kevlar and saw big improvements.On a 12"rotor.not 14 or bigger but a smaller one.I have a frind of mine who is buliding a 1984 gmc indy hauler truck and is running wilwood d-52 calipers(bolts on where factory was.same spindle)with bear rotors in front with hawk pads,in the rear CROSS DRILLED BRAKE DRUMS.........thats right cross drilled with carbon fiber pressed brake shoes.In other words factory type system,disc-drum.I will bet he will stop as good if not the same with his than me with mine.this all come from years of racing north east modifieds.But just a thought?????????????????????????????????????
Based in this post you're either; trying to troll something up, work for Wilwood or sleep with a guy that works for Wilwood. Any way your slice it, understanding, much less beleiving what you wrote, is very difficult.

[vintageracer]

Nascar changes their preferences also.

3 years ago Brembo was all the rage in Nascar. Before that Alcon and before that Wilwood. Given the cycle it's probably Wilwood's turn to be all the rage.

Just go to the Nascar resellers to see what's is out of favor at the moment. With the exception of short tracks and the 2 road courses properly gearing the car and turn in for the specific track is important than the brakes since brakes slow momemtun.

After all, isn't the Nascar Sprint Cup division now just momentum racing since nobody is able to pass on their own???

[hemicuda]

Have you ever raced ,or seenor even heard of a nascar modified?I would talk to you about thermo dynamics and co-effiecent of brakes but that would confuse the shi- out of you.What is the difference about what track has how many turns,you have never in your life ran on those tracks any how...........who are you trying to kid!You have a car that YOU think is BOSS with your dime store,more than likely mismatched for the application!And If you ever went to the 24 hrs @daytona you would see that most AMERICANS in the gt class ran wilwood or american caliper.As always ,when one person feels that they are smarter (?) than others this will happen.My camaro has seen more stopping from 155mph than you will ever see on your picture camaro!If they hold an event where WE can run side by side,you will notice that when YOU are BEHIND me my WILWOODS do not smoke at all.And you are worried about lap times?What does that have to do with alcan brakes being inferior!Listen,my adviced to you is to go to a nascar MODIFIED race and watch how the big dogs run there car and then look at the brake calipers.W I L W O O D stamped on every one!!We are runnig 677hp,23degree headed small blocks,2498lbs and on certain tracks,we run FASTER than nextel cup cars.The brakes hvae to be perfect on these cars.We are sitting on a bunch of bars with no real protection EXCEPT foraround you.We feel the wind on our face and if something brakes on the notor it could come back at you.Being serious,there is a book written by bush wilwood and it is about brakes and thermal effiency.Read it.When we were at day tona,i seen a rolex porsche(996gt-3) and the gentlemen who owned the car bulit the brake system as per what the book said and he saod his brake swaps were now longer in between since he fix it.He was running factory porscha brakes(porsche makes there own systems).tell you what after the race ,check your brake temps.Find a person who is running wilwood(the person who won)and check theirs.I bet you will be hotter than theirs.this is america,run what you want,be as smart as you want and you can by any sytem you want .But the champions runWILWOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[hemicuda]

if bad pennys car was sorted on a track with proven parts,THEN WHY DID HE GO TO A RACE WITH PADS THAT WERE NO GOOD FOR THE CAR???????????????????????????So fir this ,he switched to another company beacused he had the wrong parts?????????sounds like some one is steak chewing big time or some one is not telling the WHOLE STORY?????????????????????

[hemicuda]

Do you ever leave your house and go look at other cars???CORVETTE ZR-1'S DO NOT HAVE BREMBO BRAKES!NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!BULLSHI- NEVERCAME WITH THEM.Corvette zr-1's have GM bulit brakes.Percision forge calipers,one piece design and cost 298$ per caliper.pads are 450$ per wheel and use a carbon fibre rotor and pad.Wht carbon fiber you ask/HEAT!To get rid of it (heat).Again we go back to thermal dynamics but this is like explaining chinese math to a pre school teacher.Most companys bulid this brake cause it sells the truck or car.Did you ever see when todays dumb kids out 26 or bigger wheels on there escalade or denali.Did you ever see when they try to stop the abs comes on or it takes longer to stop.Then you see companies try to sell a kit that involves a bigger rotor and pads and they say it will stop better.Well it does stop better to a point.now the caliper has to work harder ,longer and burn up o-rings.This is beacuse of heat.(thermal dynamics).The same holds true with these cars.people are running pads designed for one thing and rotors designed for some thing else.They have calipers that run on low pressure,some on high pressure.I even seen one pro touring camaro 1969 vintage and this putz ran gm 6 piston calipers off a zo6 on all 4 corners of the car.This person is a total tool and a half!First off the weight bias alone will screw up this system.Then he ran a late model z28 master beacuse he thought that since they have 4 wheel discs,it will work on his car.You see you do not really need a 5$k brake kit to work great.just a little common sense goes a long way.Now getting back to cross drilled drums.Why does this seem so odd to you?It is a truck,there is no weight in the bed and when you have an application like this,adding crazy brakes and and buliding a 4-5$k system seems stupid.Sway bars and shocks with correct valving and good tires all bulid a great mouse trap.We all know this ,since we spend big money on our cars and trucks.But one thing that I noticed about your cars and the one we use around here.ENGINE!This is what YOU are using on yours and mine.I have seen your videosabout pro-touring and one thing I noticed................you guys all keep your cars in 1st or 2nd gear and go around the track and at the end you slam on the brakes or coast through.On this application you could run a stock 6cyl nova brakes and they would never get hot.Lets be honest here,we all run what we think is best..........right?The person who bulit motiv8r ran wilwood.Thats what he likes.you run alcan.you think that they are good.as the old germen saying goes .................k sa ra sa ra!

[TitoJones]

Have you ever raced ,or seenor even heard of a nascar modified?I would talk to you about thermo dynamics and co-effiecent of brakes but that would confuse the shi- out of you.What is the difference about what track has how many turns,you have never in your life ran on those tracks any how...........who are you trying to kid!You have a car that YOU think is BOSS with your dime store,more than likely mismatched for the application!And If you ever went to the 24 hrs @daytona you would see that most AMERICANS in the gt class ran wilwood or american caliper.As always ,when one person feels that they are smarter (?) than others this will happen.My camaro has seen more stopping from 155mph than you will ever see on your picture camaro!If they hold an event where WE can run side by side,you will notice that when YOU are BEHIND me my WILWOODS do not smoke at all.And you are worried about lap times?What does that have to do with alcan brakes being inferior!Listen,my adviced to you is to go to a nascar MODIFIED race and watch how the big dogs run there car and then look at the brake calipers.W I L W O O D stamped on every one!!We are runnig 677hp,23degree headed small blocks,2498lbs and on certain tracks,we run FASTER than nextel cup cars.The brakes hvae to be perfect on these cars.We are sitting on a bunch of bars with no real protection EXCEPT foraround you.We feel the wind on our face and if something brakes on the notor it could come back at you.Being serious,there is a book written by bush wilwood and it is about brakes and thermal effiency.Read it.When we were at day tona,i seen a rolex porsche(996gt-3) and the gentlemen who owned the car bulit the brake system as per what the book said and he saod his brake swaps were now longer in between since he fix it.He was running factory porscha brakes(porsche makes there own systems).tell you what after the race ,check your brake temps.Find a person who is running wilwood(the person who won)and check theirs.I bet you will be hotter than theirs.this is america,run what you want,be as smart as you want and you can by any sytem you want .But the champions runWILWOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

Sweet. I love tech discussions. I'll talk brake thermodynamics with you. I'm not as stupid on the subject as you might think I am.

I'll start.

Here is an AMERICAN car at Sebring (I posted a picture of that track in my previous post.) braking into a corner.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/23vmdmt-1.jpg

Wow. Look at those things. Red hot ceramic rotors. Let me show you something in the pits when they take the wheel off.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/295ejp3-1.jpg

Looks they spelled 'Wilwood' wrong there. Easy mistake. Here is another AMERICAN car, this time a Cadillac CTS-V in the same event, same track.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/2njj66b-1.jpg

What the hell? Where is that Wilwood caliper they ALL run? Can't Wilwood even spell their own company name right?

Just an FYI before we really go deep into this- I'm a former Porsche technician and Service Advisor. All Porsche brakes are Brembo. I have worked on GT3R cars and guess what? Brembo on all 4 corners. Porsche does not make their own calipers- hell, no auto manufacturer I know of makes their own calipers. In addition to that, I have built, sold parts for, and helped make some of the cars on this site run with the best in the world. I know how to match parts. I know what wins races. Before you pop off at the mouth about Bad Penny, you might want to do some research.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52597&highlight=bad+penny
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31090&highlight=bad+penny

You know that whole Optima Speed Challenge thing? Penny won it first time out of the gate. Almost had it in the bag the 2nd time around too.

I never said I raced at any of those tracks, but you are claiming things you aren't able to back up at present.

155mph stops repeatedly in a 99 Camaro? Where did you do this pray-tell? You must have some distances recorded somewhere- how many feet was that?

Your suggestion of going to a NASCAR race is lost on me. Don't care, not interested. Circle track racing (even on road courses) does nothing for me. It's boring. My point that an ALMS car uses the brakes harder and more often than ANY Nascar still stands true. I could give a f*ck that NASCAR uses Wilwood. They go in circles all day and rarely use brakes to t6he point that any road race car will. I'm not saying Wilwood is crap; I'm saying there are better systems for track use on a road race car.

Bring tech back with your next response, and learn to spell, make sentences, and generally not come off like a 2nd grader in your writing; it's difficult to read and even more so to understand.

I'm anxiously awaiting your thermodynamic brake tech.

Tyler

[TitoJones]

Do you ever leave your house and go look at other cars???CORVETTE ZR-1'S DO NOT HAVE BREMBO BRAKES!NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!BULLSHI- NEVERCAME WITH THEM.Corvette zr-1's have GM bulit brakes.

Hmmmm...

http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-zr1/features-specs/
Do me a favor and just have a quick look at that page. Tell me if you see what I see.

This is from GM, the manufacturer of the ZR1 Corvette:

Brembo® carbon-ceramic brakes

Don't believe me still? How about you take it from Brembo then.

http://www.brembo.com/US/Cars/Corvette2/

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I can see how the word 'Corvette' may be misleading to you. I can put what ever I want on any caliper in the world, but it doesn't change the way they work, or who made them. The other brakes like on the Z06? Still not made my GM. Made by PBR Australia. Stick to what you know, which in this case, is not much.

Hmmm. You are losing all credibility my friend.


Tyler

[6'9"Witha69]

:lol:Tyler lives for this $h!t!

[hemicuda]

Well seeing how I had to replace the one caliper in my vette,the box says right on it;BULIT BY DELCO_MORAINE.NOT BREMBO!!!!Well i have to say that after looking at your web site it is no wonder you are defending those brakes.......................................with the prices you charge I can see why you are getting hot around the collar.if any of your customers ever found out that you could have sold a asif or better product,they would be bent.I guess with the prices you are charging I guess you CAN throw away good money on OTHER stuff.As for as the pictures;what are you showing me?Two cars out of 50 with some one elses parts.yeah and?Do you know wht those rotors are hot?Which one do you think it is.is it gasses or moving friction?Well you think about the answer and let me know.Nextel cup cars rotors and according to YOU have less turns and there fore less stoping.Remove your diaper and think!Did you notice the lettering on the rotor on the corvette.What do YOU think it means?After seeing how much you rap-ah I mean sell for brembos,I would defend them to.You bulid what you think is good and I will race with what I know works.See ya and have a happy...

[TitoJones]

Well seeing how I had to replace the one caliper in my vette,the box says right on it;BULIT BY DELCO_MORAINE.NOT BREMBO!!!!Well i have to say that after looking at your web site it is no wonder you are defending those brakes.......................................with the prices you charge I can see why you are getting hot around the collar.if any of your customers ever found out that you could have sold a asif or better product,they would be bent.I guess with the prices you are charging I guess you CAN throw away good money on OTHER stuff.As for as the pictures;what are you showing me?Two cars out of 50 with some one elses parts.yeah and?Do you know wht those rotors are hot?Which one do you think it is.is it gasses or moving friction?Well you think about the answer and let me know.Nextel cup cars rotors and according to YOU have less turns and there fore less stoping.Remove your diaper and think!Did you notice the lettering on the rotor on the corvette.What do YOU think it means?After seeing how much you rap-ah I mean sell for brembos,I would defend them to.You bulid what you think is good and I will race with what I know works.See ya and have a happy...

Wait; now you own a 2009 ZR1? Post pictures of this beast! Post a picture of you holding a sign next to it that says Tito Jones is an assh*le.

I have the manufacturers suggested retail on my website as per my dealer rules and regulations. Do I sell them at that price? Not typically. Are they as cheap as a set of Wilwoods? Not even close. You could get 2 sets of Wilwoods for the price of the AP Racing or Brembo setups on the ATS site.

You stated something that is so damn wrong it isn't even funny; I provided a fact. Present day ZR1 Corvettes come with Brembo brakes. You getting a replacement part from Autozone for your 1982 Corvette is not the same thing, not the same boat, not even the same subject. I could give 2 sh*ts you replaced a part with an aftermarket non OEM replacement; doesn't change the fact that I proved you wrong.

Carry on with your tech-less vomit.

Tyler

[TitoJones]

you sent me two link for a car calles BAD PENNY.Okay what am I supposed to see here?The car is in a nice shade of orange.looks like a factory chrysler color.nice.okay now what .I always said people from cali were a little off........to the left.

I should have known better than to ask you to read up on a car that puts ZR1 Corvettes to shame on Spring Vally raceway in Pahrump. I'll see what we can do about making a picture book for you that is simple enough that even a guy from New York can understand it. (no offense intended to our other NY members.)

Next time you want to insult me, try to use correct grammar, spaces between your sentences, and capital letters where appropriate. It takes me longer to decipher your posts than it should; quick insults aren't so quick when I have to try and decode your 2nd grade typing level.

Tyler

[jknight16]

:lol: This is a great topic, but as Tyler mentioned, should be discussed with Tech and not straight fanboyism (hey, if he can make up words so can I).

Looks like Alcon does offer a C5/C6 replacement setup that would work for people running the AFX spindle or any other C5/C6 based system. Looks like they're radial mounted as well. I'd be interested to see what the bracket looks like to achieve that.

Pricing approaching $4k for the fronts. Very cool. Kinda makes those Brembo Carbon Ceramics from the ZR1 seem like a bit of a bargain!

http://www.alconusa.com/client_images/files/92_593.pdf

[hemicuda]

facts not insults

[hemicuda]

Take it easy there.

[JohnUlaszek]

Way to stay classy for your 14th post.

[Damn True]

Hey, whoa-whoa-whoa!

Keep the personal attacks out of it. Either we discuss the topic based on facts and data and the relative merits of each or we don't discuss it at all.

Nothing wrong with having a preference for brand "a" over brand "b" but if said preference isn't rooted in anything fact based let's at least be intellectually honest enough to say so.

[hemicuda]

with the high price that you charge to bulid one:machine::machine::machine: of your cars,factoring time for labor,price of part and car itself ,and seeing how many gm parts you use it is cheaper to buy a zo6,put on race tires and have the same car but with a gm warranty!

[TitoJones]

I'm taking this one to PM. I can cuss more there.

Check your inbox sir.

Tyler

[hemicuda]

How can you stay "classy"when you have a person who once they lose the arquement starts refering to vomit,bitch slap and other insults.To think this man actually owns a shop where people actually buy there parts from.The more he ridicules him self here the more business will suffer.You are only as good as your last job.Right.I might have went a little over the top but when faced with lemons,I make lemonade.:1st:

[Damn True]

Use facts to support your opinion or bow out of the conversation.

[Matt@BOS]

But the champions runWILWOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

I think hemicuda speaks the truth here. Bad Penny definitely holds the proof too. Last year at Spring Mountain, running WILWOODS!!! the car won the Optima Street Car Invitational, this last time he ditched the Wilwoods for Baer and finished fourth. Undeniable proof!

Edit - statement is a fact, so please don't delete it.

Matt

[vintageracer]

I'm taking this one to PM. I can cuss more there.

Check your inbox sir.

Tyler


Tito,

Can you share your responses via a broad email base via PM? I sure am looking forward to reading this good cussing!

[Damn True]

I don't have a dog in this fight but for the record:



- Nascar -
Sprint Cup.
AP Racing Brake Calipers and or Pedal Boxes were supplied to 9 of the 12 Chase Drivers who finished 1st / 2nd / 3rd / 4th / 6th / 8th / 9th / 10th and 12th.

- Fomula One -
AP Racing Supplied 8 of the 10 teams with either Brakes and or Clutches including the Drivers and Manufacturers Champions.

AP Racing's domination of supplying Brakes and/or Clutches to Formula One continued, with a 1-3-4-5-9 & 10th finish for our products.

When the chequered flag came down it was our 648th GP success, a truely magnificent achievement which AP Racing are confident of increasing in the future.

AP Racing supplied the 2009 world Drivers and constructors champions with clutches and other products


- LeMans -
AP Racing success continues at the Le Mans 24hrs with 3 Class wins LMP2, GT1, GT2.
AP Racing equipped two thirds of the entire field with either brakes, clutches or both making AP Racing the dominant supplier of this equipment.
The successful teams used a cross section of AP Racing Monobloc Brake Calipers, Carbon & Sintered Clutch products, including, CP6161 Radi-Cal calliper and CP7543, Ø140mm Carbon Clutch.
LMP2 class winner.
Number 31 Team Essex, Porsche RS Spyder. APR calipers CP6060/6057, with Hitco carbon discs/pads (all Hitco carbon is supplied through APR), and Sachs carbon clutch.
GT1 Winner
Number 63, Corvette Racing, Corvette C6R. APR calipers, CP6065/6161, with Hitco discs/pads, and APR carbon clutch ,CP7223 .
GT2 Winner
Number 82, Risi Competizione, Ferrari F430GT, APR calipers CP6080/6271, with APR iron discs 380 x 35.6 front, and 355 x 32mm rear, Endless pads, with APR carbon clutch CP7543


Brembo - Caddy CTS-V http://www.brembo.com/US/Cars/News/List/20080120.htm

Brembo - Corvette ZR-1 http://www.brembo.com/US/Cars/News/List/20080119.htm http://www.brembo.com/US/Cars/Corvette2/corvette-fitment-2.htm

Brembo - Lexus ISF http://www.brembo.com/NR/rdonlyres/35DDED4D-A2BC-44F7-A1F9-CEED59840633/6848/BJ710.pdf

Brembo - Ford GT http://www.brembo.com/US/Cars/News/List/20060613.htm

Audi R-10: Brembo
Porsche Spyder: Brembo
Vette C6R: AP Racing, used to be Brembo
Flying Lizards 911: AP Racing

[James OLC]

I am assuming that the point of most of the new guys post was an excercise in trolling - and I have to say it worked. I've googled brakes more in the last two hours than I have since I researched pad options for mine. Viral marketing at it's best! Couldn't find any facts to support most of the claims made but I bet the search engine rankings are up a bit!

Edit... I did find most of what True posted above but couldn't find anything similar for the other guys stuff. Still... lots of searching (lol)

[cheapthrillz]

I too am going to reach out on a limb and call troll.....

For Tito:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

lol

[TitoJones]

Well seeing how I had to replace the one caliper in my vette,the box says right on it;BULIT BY DELCO_MORAINE.NOT BREMBO!!!!


with the high price that you charge to bulid one:machine::machine::machine: of your cars,factoring time for labor,price of part and car itself ,and seeing how many gm parts you use it is cheaper to buy a zo6,put on race tires and have the same car but with a gm warranty!

This is where you don't make sense. You claim to own a ZR1 Corvette. You claim you had a leaking caliper, that YOU replaced yourself with an AC Delco part.

Why would you have to replace anything, especially a safety item like a brake caliper on a brand new car with a warranty?

Does. Not. Compute.

Also- Damn True- Great post, thank you for further proving my point.

Tyler

[Damn True]

I am assuming that the point of most of the new guys post was an excercise in trolling - and I have to say it worked. I've googled brakes more in the last two hours than I have since I researched pad options for mine. Viral marketing at it's best! Couldn't find any facts to support most of the claims made but I bet the search engine rankings are up a bit!

Edit... I did find most of what True posted above but couldn't find anything similar for the other guys stuff. Still... lots of searching (lol)

The OP has a few equally silly and open ended questions on the site. I don't think he's a troll, just new and unable to use the search function.

Sure touched a few nerves though eh?

How about a good TKO/T-56 thread?

Maybe we could define "Pro-Touring" or talk about the big meanie heads at Corner-Carvers?

We haven't had one of those in a while.

[hifi875]

probably has a c4 zr1 lol

[6'9"Witha69]

How about a good TKO/T-56 thread?

Maybe we could define "Pro-Touring" or talk about the big meanie heads at Corner-Carvers?

We haven't had one of those in a while.
+1 ::lmao:

[parsonsj]

Nice work today True.

jp

[Damn True]

'twern't nuthin.

It's actually pretty interesting to hunt around and see what people are running.

These guys won the GT class at Daytona this year:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/684_1-1.jpg

Four piston Alcon front and rear calipers
Cast iron vented Alcon rotors front and rear
Pagid racing brake pads

TRG/Flying Lizards finished second

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Same setup as Flying Lizards. AP Racing





Make no mistake, Wilwood does make good stuff for street and hobby racing but at the highest levels of racing they don't have a competitive product. But at the end of the day, not you, nor I are in that rare air. 99% of the audience here would be fine on Wilwood even for track use as few if any people will really hammer their brakes on street tires enough in a 20min session to see a difference between AP/Brembo/Alcon high end stuff and Wilwood.

[Twentyover]

This thread kind of cracks me up. When I lived in So Cal, I vintage raced an MGB (still down in the barn) Rules constrained to use the stock iron calipers.

We were bleeding them at the club track in Las Vegas, closed the bleeder, and pumped them a couple times .....And watched the caliper flex. We re-torqued to bridge bolts, but I was amazed at howmuch the were still flexing

[Damn True]

This thread kind of cracks me up. When I lived in So Cal, I vintage raced an MGB (still down in the barn) Rules constrained to use the stock iron calipers.

We were bleeding them at the club track in Las Vegas, closed the bleeder, and pumped them a couple times .....And watched the caliper flex. We re-torqued to bridge bolts, but I was amazed at howmuch the were still flexing

The advances made in brakes in the last 20-30 years are truly astonishing. I had a 1978 HD super-glide with brakes that I am certain caused the bike to accelerate a bit when applied. Even an assembly as compact as a motorcycle caliper visibly flexed when engaged.

[Payton King]

will jump in here.....

Other factors contributed to Steve not winning Optima this year, not becasue he changed from Wilwood to Baer.

I believe that AP is an off shoot of Brembo, kind of like Chevy to a Caddy. From all that I have read, very primo stuff that commands a high price. Lots of good reading on all of the systems above over at Corvette Forum under the autocross and roadrace section. Do a search. You have guys over there from basic autocross, track days to full on racing in every class.



Trying to get back on track just a little.

[dipren443]

will jump in here.....

Other factors contributed to Steve not winning Optima this year, not becasue he changed from Wilwood to Baer.

I believe that AP is an off shoot of Brembo, kind of like Chevy to a Caddy.

Trying to get back on track just a little.

Interesting... Wondering where you heard that tid bit. Brembo is an Italian based company and AP is based in the UK. Got any more info on that? Would be curious to know if they really are related. I do not believe they are though.

[dipren443]

Fronts are AP6000S and rears are AP6050S.

Tyler

Just wanted to add to this...

AP6000S/6050S are the kit numbers as they apply to the C5/C6 Vette.

The caliper in AP6000S is AP part number CP7041.

The caliper in AP6050S is AP part number CP5306.

[James OLC]

Interesting... Wondering where you heard that tid bit. Brembo is an Italian based company and AP is based in the UK. Got any more info on that? Would be curious to know if they really are related. I do not believe they are though.

IIRC Brembo bought AP about 10 years ago - they are operated as seperate companies ie. AP is a wholly owned subsidiary of Brembo

(so not so much as Chevy to a Cadillac as Chevy to GM)

[James OLC]

In response to Matt's comment on page 1 (69MSA, not Matt at AME) there are a half dozen or so good pad choices for the AP's - depending on what you want. Ferodo, Hawk, Porterfield, Pagid, and Mintex all make pads for them. I have been running the Mintex pads but I might tweak my pad choice a bit for the One Lap since the time trials are generally very short and there is not a ton of opportunity to get a lot of heat in to them.

[dipren443]

IIRC Brembo bought AP about 10 years ago - they are operated as seperate companies ie. AP is a wholly owned subsidiary of Brembo

(so not so much as Chevy to a Cadillac as Chevy to GM)

Yeah, been doing some digging and found this article:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns02870.html

Learn something new everyday. :idea:

[jknight16]

Using motorcycling as a baseline, I can tell you that the radial mounting configuration provides vastly improved feel and seems to calm the front suspension under braking when compared to a non-radial mounted system.

For that reason alone I would be interested in the Alcon or AP racing stuff. I'm not sure if it makes as big of a difference on four wheels but it's something worth noting.

[James OLC]

One other comment that I will make - as it pertains to pad choice, material, and performance - is that it is a difficult balance to acheive on a street driven car and not only does it take some work, you really have to have your car dialed in to be able to quantify performance - good or bad. It's easy to pick a pad for a race car - especially if you are set up to run the same weight on the same (style of) track for the same length of time over and over and over again with ten, twenty, or thirty nearly identical cars to look at and see what works and what does not work. You don't have to be concerned with dust, or noise, or low temperature characteristics or any of that stuff. The greatest "challenge" that we face with our cars is finding the balance between the street and the track and even the type of track. While it would be great if we could all afford to have different pads and rotors for different applications, it's just not feasible so we have to compromise. Some times that compromise results in less than perfect performance in specific application - ie. the aggressive pads squeak with light use or the less aggressive pads fade when they get hot after multiple balls out laps on a long road course - that's not a failure, that's a compromise that we do our best to mitigate and some times its easy and some times its not. But regardless, for the majority of us (a) aren't talented enough drivers and (b) aren't dialed in enough to appreciate the last five percent advantage that the perfect brakes (brand, pad, MC bore or bias adjustment) will give us. So we pick what we are comfortable with and what we can afford. And as we do get to the point the we car make the most of these choices on our street cars - well - good for us.

Getting hot under the collar about someone's choice of brake manufacturer doesn't serve a useful purpose - by and large they are all good given the right application (likewise, there are many applications where they may not be suited). Rather than bicker about brands - since we all have our favorites, or preferences, or biases - why not try to make this a useful conversation?

Just my two bits.

but no... I don't have any direct "tech" RE Alcons vs others.

[hemicuda]

some times it pays to bring with you two or more pad sets that are suitable for the application.Bring some hard,moderate and soft and try them.On wilwoods you can pull the cotter pin out and sway them in 5 minutes or less.Not sure about the others.:idea:

[Matt@BOS]

Payton, as far as my comment about Steve not winning Optima this year,I didn't really expect anyone to take the comment seriously, which was my mistake, because I sort of slipped my mind that sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet.

James, thanks for jumping in with that info on pad choices for AP. I've done a tiny bit of research, but didn't turn up a great amount of info. I mostly ran into websites that acknowledged that Hawk, Ferodo, etc made pads, but did give a description of what they were intended for.I know I'm being lazy by not calling everyone up yet, but if have any info off hand, would you mind sending it my way, it would be much appreciated,

thanks,
Matt

[James OLC]

Here is what I have found for the APs...

Street Pads – Front and Rear
Ferodo DS2500
Porterfield R4-S (Kevlar – low dust)
Mintex Xtreme Motorsport

Front Only – Street Pads
Hawk HPS (need to be trimmed for hat clearance)

Front Only – Track Pads
Ferodo DS3000
Hawk HP Plus (need to be trimmed)
Pagid RS4-2-1

Rear Only – Track Pads
Porterfield R4

[Payton King]

Jim, but Carbotech makes them for the AP's as well.

Matt, I did not pay any attention to who made the comment, I know that you have seen Steve enough to know the story.

You car is very nice! Glad you are having a good time with it

[Matt@BOS]

Hey guys, thanks for posting the info. I'll have to look into the Porterfield R4-6, I wasn't aware of those before. No matter how off topic this thread has gotten I never figured it would end up even remotely constructive, but this has been a big help.

Matt

[MonzaRacer]

Hey guys, can I try to help?
If you have squeaks I have a company that makes a spray and hand applied product that you apply to the pad surface to reduce/eliminate brake squeak. It comes from Kent and is called Brake Silencer.
It probably would need to be reapplied after autocross/roadcourse use but it does help in the noise factor AND is some respects it does help with a little dusting.
Its not cheap and it does work and does not effect the braking ability of your pads.
Basically it has quartz(basic idea is if you rub the quartz, the frequencies are sympathetic and counter brake noise) in its black base so your rubbing on millions of tiny particles of quarts, the theory is use silicone brake lube(or other high heat brake lube) on the backs of your pads between the pads and calipers, also applying this product to the pad surface, either after a scuff on some 36 grit emery cloth, or new. allow to dry and install.
Very cool stuff. At shop I used to work for we ran Raybestos pads which were slightly harder than some other brands and in some circumstances would squeak or rumble.
GM started using it as they only have about 150 different pad formulations and sometimes the pads in the service pipe line can differ from updated pads.
Now on the note of hemi's caliper IT MAY HAVE CAME FROM DELCO MORAINE , been in their box and even re-manufactured by them possibly.
BUT in my mind I keep thinking I heard that AP/Brembo caliper bodies, the bodies are forged, but I may be wrong.
Again nothing wrong with Wilwood, but I can remember putting on the latest and greatest back in 86 on the Monte Carlo Aerocoupe we built for Super Stock and having to swap the whole setup as they lost rights to the design and we couldnt get repair parts to rebuild them and we had leaks.
now in that note I have seen much better quality, design and such in last few years. but after getting burnt on literally thousands of dollars parts then replacing them in less than 2 months,,,,hmmmmm.
also need someone to get Tylers opinion on the PBR Camaro (regular cast brake calipers and the Corvettes which I believe I read are cast differently)brakes vS Corvette,,, ok maybe not, and i do have to agree IF I needed setup help Id call Tyler over hemi.
HMMMM ever wonder why I am considering ATS G-body spindles (yes I know Speed Tech is doing that now but Tyler did the grunt work).
good info I need to book mark this page for the part numbers.

[hemicuda]

brembos are NOT the manufactuer of the calipers on ANY zo6,zr1 or any vette product!!!GM was using pbr calipers on camaros and firebirds.The only part bimbo makes on the zr1 vette IS THE ROTORS!!!thats ALL they make for that car!PERIOD!The GM caliper is a percision cast part made in house at GM!As a matter of fact,the rotors ,according to a rumor from gm is they were being made by pba.So I was told.When we ran wilwood on the race cars about 15 or so years ago,there was a problem with something over a pat.pending subject and they did stop selling or making parts BUT if you would of annoyed them like we did ,they made good on it and sent us 2 new calipers and parts for the others.My cousin was and still is running a pontiac 2plus2 in nhra stock eliminator and he just installed the wilwood 2 piston caliper on stock gm spindles and he says it stops better than gm single piston.There is a lot of nasty people and things being said about me or the guy tito but the main jist of the conversation was brembos,ap or others is that,unless you rally your car EVERY weekend and abuse the heck out of it all you are doing is taking ALOT of money and burning it on waste ful stuff.If you are protouring a car,I would spend my money wisely and but parts that are perfect for your car.Not buying big$$$$$ on brembos or others cause the color is cool or the rotors are gold in color.That is beyond stupid.I bought(in process of ordering) a kit from KORE3 and putting gm zo6 parts on our shop truck.His price is right on,the parts work as perfectly a s others(wilwood included) and if I need parts,any gm dealer can get them or has them in stock.When you start buying the other brands all included they have to be ordered and wait a while for the parts.If you were to buy a brembo kit with 14"rotors(by the way KORE 3 has 14" has part of the kit.)and the rotor was cracked,you have to remove it,mail it back ,put hands on ass and wait!Gm ;unbolt,go to GM,bring home and install.And why would you want to install a aluminium part as a spindle and use this.I do not know but I would not want that on acar I was racing.The ones GM bulids go throughs extensive testing and x-ray to make sure that it is perfect.This is a expensive process and I doubt that the average shop can afford this.run a stock gm spindle and get the correct brackets and rin what ever caliper you want.As far as buliding brake systems,we have bulit more brake systems than I care to remember.Started around 1987.Today is 2012.WOW it has been a while.If you need any help or info holla at me and Either I or bobby will try to help you.:)

[hemicuda]

When you start mixing and matching pads to suit your driving need,check the rotors!If you run a pad compound that YOU think is perfect for your driving you may not know it but you can actually grind down the rotor and ruin it in one race.You should check with the rotor manufactuer to make sure the pad is compatible with there rotor.I see people here posting pads and saw no one mentioning the rotor.Rotor is as important or more so since the pad will be touching it.Just a helpful lesson to help you save money?But then again what do I know!:)

[James OLC]

Wow. I've been a member of this site for almost 10 years and this is the first time that I have actively sought out and used the "ignore" feature.

Timmy, a couple of things before I go... 1. Explore spelling, punctuation, and grammer before you hurt somebody (too late). 2. Try to post something helpful if you think you need to post anything at all; if you just want to see your name in print, try the general discussion area and don't pollute legitimate technical posts. 3. Don't argue facts based on "what you were told" - someone is obviously not giving you good information. 4. Nobody was saying anything nasty about Tyler and 5. no matter where you are and what you think you know... it's 2010...

Hopefully this post can get back to something meaningful again...

[James OLC]

Jim, but Carbotech makes them for the AP's as well.


Thanks for the heads up on the Carbotech pads Payton. We're trying to find suitable pads for the OLoA right now but obviously it's a unique environment and the ideal pad may be hard to narrow down... we need pads that works well cold since we only get one warm up lap and then three timed laps from a standing start (so we're never going to get the brakes really hot on the track) and they have to have decent enough street manners for the 500 miles a day of transit driving. We're looking a pads and rotors as consumables for the week and will probably end up needing at least a front pad change at one point or another.

I think that the cold performance aspect is the most difficult part of it... the "warm up" lap is also the only orientation lap we have so we have to come out hard right out of the pits.

We're getting close now and hopefully will have something to try at Buttonwillow next month.

[JohnUlaszek]

Today is 2012.WOW it has been a while.

WOW indeed.

[hemicuda]

most of you do not know monkey shi- on brakes and the amazing thing is you people think that you do!Scary!very scary!I would not want to race a datsun b210 on the same track as most of you!Most of you know NOTHING ABOUT BRAKE PADS,NOTHING ABOUT BRAKE CALIPER AND MOST OF ALL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BRAKE ROTORS!!!!!!!.aLL YOU GUYS DO IS waste PAD MANUFACTURERS TIME ON silly questions and never not never consulted the rotoe maker to see what works and not works.Stupid thoughts!That is why people in the brake business look at you and laugh there asses off.they know that they will be selling lots and lots of parts to people who thoght they knew more than them!This is why brembo made last year 1.7 billion in sales.more than likely to half of you!

[hemicuda]

if i were to go to one of these events you can point out my car right away............the one where the brakes are NOT glowing,heat is not pouring out of the wheels and the one where the rims are not covered in brake dust and not squeaking as I am driving.Some of you guys just do not get it.Just beacuse some one has the most expansive set of brakes does not make hin the smartest.what ever,waste your money ,you know whats best...right mr.meetoo!

[HarleyR]

Wow what a ***** storm..... Im not really taking the time to read all of the thread...In my experences..Alcon Makes Nice stuff.... expensive.. but nice... I belive you can get equal or better results for less expense ny running a Brembo/AP System.... Also In my personal experence Wilwood brakes suck....Ive spent the last 10 or so years in various garage area in NASCARS top 3 series...They work ok on Modifieds and late models but You NEVER see Wilwood stuff on cars that auctually run good.... maybe on some start and park stuff or Back markers but Brembo AP Raybestos/Alcon And PFC are the only ones you'll see on cars...the choices in pad manufactures changes daily..

[hemicuda]

I doubt that you have been to a busch north event,ANY modified race ever or craftsman truck event.Not sure to how many but a lot of the truck teams are running wilwood parts.MAt be the one that YOU saw were more than likely installed or serviced wrong.WERE the garages you saw on TV!CAuse it was not in reality?Modifieds do not run good?Ah I should have known another person who NEVER went to a modified event.Another Mr.Meetoo. you know for people who bad mouth parts you guys sure buy a lot of these parts from people you DO NOT LIKE.

[phenometron]

I'll say one thing, I get TONS of information once you guys get fired up. If nothing else, I have to thank Hemicuda for stirring up the hornet's nest. And thanks to all of the knowledgeable folks who jumped in! This is all new to me, and I'm planning a brake upgrade down the road for my Riv...I take this stuff in like a sponge! Education is key! :)

[chicane67]

This has got to be the most entertaining thread I have read in quite some time.

I believe that it is somewhat obvious of what we think and feel for a 24 post veteran that has not supplied any amount of tech to a technical discussion. Yet... has spewed non-sensical dribble all while defending a mere "opinion."

Please "hemicuda"... expound on your education and experience to back up ANYTHING that has fallen out of your mouth thus far.

Those of us with the education and experience are dying to know.

[Twentyover]

...I take this stuff in like a sponge! Education is key! :)

Just be sure to separate the wheat from the chaff. Don't believe what you read on this, or any other website, withot doing your own research. Understand what changes you want to make, and why, before you open your wallet

Lot of emotion on this thread, lots of people like or dislike one manufacturer or another. Unless they can provide objective reasons why they like or dislike a product, the stated opinion is just that, a baseless opinion. There's also an exposure variable. Some posters may have been exposed to a limited number o permutations. These opinions can be weighted at to the advantages and disadvantages of the products they have exposure to, but their opinions on products they have not been exposed to should be challenged.

[HarleyR]

When I say Garages that means the track.... I get to spend all next week in sunny Daytona.... Thank god Ive never been to a Busch North race on purpose... The modified race at Loudon is usually free entertainment between practices for us... And I hope they never go back to Bristol..that was the worse race Ive ever seen....But somewhere along the way I won 4 Winston West championships(99-00-01-03) 17 or so races.... won 9 or 10 truck races.... lost a championship by a few points in the last race at Homestead... a few other tid bits along the way... To clame that parts are installed or serviced wrong... we are talking brake systems... The stuff uses standard mounts.... maybe a few shims here and there how hard is it to rebuild 4 seals and pucks? Jesus christ everything else has arrows on it... bleed screws up... not rocket science....Theres nothing better than trying to bleed some old clapped out Intergra caliper from those retarded 1/4 inch bleed screws and watch the caliper flex...You should seriously move down to NC and go door to door to these shops and sell Wilwoods stuff for them... because the last guy that did it.... cant remember his name..... but he works for AP now....

[cheapthrillz]

Awwwwww..... Is Timmy gone already? So sad.... I just shed a tear....

[Larry Callahan]

Yeah, he left and wanted his account deleted. I guess you can't please everyone.

[cheapthrillz]

Yeah, he left and wanted his account deleted. I guess you can't please everyone.

Awww, I'm gonna miss him.... Some people just don't get it I guess....

Heck, I was starting to believe that we were all ignorant morons....

[jknight16]

Awww, I'm gonna miss him.... Some people just don't get it I guess....

Heck, I was starting to believe that we were all ignorant morons....

Yeah, that's tragic. Good riddance.

I'm still amazed that he thought glowing red rotors on a race car were indicative of a problem or inefficient system. Guess all those cars at LeMans were using the wrong brake components...

[L & H Kustoms]

This has been a great thread to read :lmao: havent had a good one like this in a while

[Damn True]

It makes things easier for all of us when an individual takes it upon themselves to prove their abject stupidity rather than requiring the effort of another to do it for them.

[David Pozzi]

Thought I'd add a couple of details on Bad Penny's brakes.

We'd had good luck at Spring Mountain with the Wilwood brakes in 2008. I insisted Steve get better pads suited for track use, but after seeing the track the day before the event, I opted to not install them as we were told they were hard on the rotors for street use when the pads are cold, and we needed to do the autocross and I felt the hard pads might cost us time for that event if they didn't get up to temp quick enough. Spring Mountain did not appear to have enough repeated braking areas to cause the street pads to overheat. I turned out to be right, as we won the event with no brake problems.

At Gingerman, the track has 4 very hard braking areas at the ends of various length straights. We had never run that track before and not heard any tips on running well there. The street pads worked fine in practice, but when Steve ran his timed runs, they faded. He came in and I took over and they faded on me after half a lap. No pedal drop, the pads just gave up. If I ever run there again I'll pay a lot more attention to getting better pads on the car in advance.

I have nothing bad to say about the Willwood brakes on Penny. We did have an issue with a rear caliper coming loose at Button Willow, but that is our fault for not catching it. Penny arrived Monday, I left Thursday for the track, I did a check of the car, switched wheels and tires, and did a brake bleed. I was trying to finish Mary's 68 Camaro on the lift to enable us to put Penny on it, but ran out of time. We did try those high temp pads at Button Willow, and they worked well. Willwood was always helpful.

For the 2009 Optima Invitational, Baer brakes were put on Penny to do an install article on their new 6p calipers. This afforded an opportunity to upsize to 14" rotors from the 13" Willwoods and freshen up the brakes. Baer is very supportive of many Pro-Touring events and I can't say enough about their Integrity, products, and service. Prior to SEMA Steve had a new larger bore master cyl hang up, causing the brakes to drag. This overheated the brakes on the street and warped the rotors. There was no time to change them before Penny had to be on display at SEMA.

At Spring Mountain we changed pads and rotors the night before the Optima Challenge and Steve did some quick brake seasoning in the (very dark) pits. When I went out on track the next day, I was a bit afraid of what kind of brakes I'd have. While I left a little margin for error I found the brakes had no issues on track, and seemed to get better and better as I went.

If Baer and Hawk had not gotten us new rotors and pads we would not have done nearly as well. Steve finished 2nd to the Cobra in the 0-60-0!
David

[phenometron]

Just be sure to separate the wheat from the chaff. Don't believe what you read on this, or any other website, withot doing your own research. Understand what changes you want to make, and why, before you open your wallet

Lot of emotion on this thread, lots of people like or dislike one manufacturer or another. Unless they can provide objective reasons why they like or dislike a product, the stated opinion is just that, a baseless opinion. There's also an exposure variable. Some posters may have been exposed to a limited number o permutations. These opinions can be weighted at to the advantages and disadvantages of the products they have exposure to, but their opinions on products they have not been exposed to should be challenged.


I understand completely. I look for credibility in past posts, I look for common opinions on certain products and common reasons why they like certain products. Then I start researching those products...which sometime opens up other avenues and options along the way. Thanks though, I appreciate your comment! I'm sure I'll be posting more help questions in the future! And yeah, nice name you have there! If you ever make your wife furious... LOL I know we don't deal in ricers here, but it was too easy. :)

[STI_Guy]

After reading this thread, it sounds like a lot of people have had incorrect expectations of a product that’s resulted in subpar performance. Since it sounds like all the systems that have had issues have been fully custom you have to accept responsibility as a builder sometimes for things not working correctly. So many things go into a brake kit, its way more than having the right master cylinder for the given caliper bores. Example Brembo does not sell the GT line calipers separate for a reason, they only want those calipers on cars they engineered a package for. Now the Race stuff you can find all over. They have the idea to preserve an image they have created by doing this, I believe this is exactly why you don’t see factory Brembo kits on Pro-Touring cars.

[James OLC]

I don't want to read through this whole post again because my brain is not prepared to revisit the abuse but... IIRC... I don't think that anybody on this site had incorrect expectations of their brakes however there probably was a comment or two complaining about sub par performance (with one particular brand of brakes). And I think that the biggest issue with that one particular brand of brakes is that they are universal by definition and it has been possible to, as you point out, create a combination that just does not work very well. But I think that is the exception and not the rule. I don't recall anyone with Alcon, AP, Baer, Brembo, or factory replacement brakes complaining about being dissappointed - most of the (useful) comments in this thread have been focused on optimizing the brakes that we are using - there is a big difference. But as you say - these are custom applications and there should not be an expectation of perfect performance right out of the box.

I have to disagree with you on the Brembo's though - anyone can buy GT kits off the internet and bolt them on if they want to. It's a matter of choice, not availability.

[jknight16]

I don't think that anybody on this site had incorrect expectations of their brakes.... I don't recall anyone with Alcon, AP, Baer, Brembo, or factory replacement brakes complaining about being dissappointed -

I have to second that, I haven't heard of anyone that has been disappointed with the braking performance of any of these brand's kits. In fact, my personal experience has shown that a glorified (baer version) C5/C6 brake system can work amazingly well on a 1st gen PT car. Now, the jury is still out on handling the track abuse, but we'll see. Guys like Tobin at Kore3 know how to get these systems to work very well even when they're not bolted to a corvette.

I agree that most people don't use Brembo by choice, which is driven by budget.

[STI_Guy]

I guess I should have been clearer, you guys are correct anyone can go buy a GT kit off the shelf but I just don’t see Brembo specifically designed kits for many of the pro touring cars. Subpar performance is not strictly braking performance but also caliper durability and application. Just my take. I’ve used quite a few brands of brakes on cars and have to also agree in customs applications it takes work sometimes to extract the exact performance level you require from the braking system. I’ve held off from bad mouthing or writing off a brand unless after all resources have been exhausted, and they still do not perform to the desired level.

[MuscleRodz]

I guess I should have been clearer, you guys are correct anyone can go buy a GT kit off the shelf but I just don’t see Brembo specifically designed kits for many of the pro touring cars. Subpar performance is not strictly braking performance but also caliper durability and application. Just my take. I’ve used quite a few brands of brakes on cars and have to also agree in customs applications it takes work sometimes to extract the exact performance level you require from the braking system. I’ve held off from bad mouthing or writing off a brand unless after all resources have been exhausted, and they still do not perform to the desired level.CPP has exclusive rights to sell the musclecar kits

[monza]

LOL thanks guys... entertaining and informative!

[Steve1968LS2]

I think hemicuda speaks the truth here. Bad Penny definitely holds the proof too. Last year at Spring Mountain, running WILWOODS!!! the car won the Optima Street Car Invitational, this last time he ditched the Wilwoods for Baer and finished fourth. Undeniable proof!

Edit - statement is a fact, so please don't delete it.

Matt

Uh.. no..

My switch to Baer from Wilwood had nothing to do with problems.. there were several reasons.

Keep in mind that Penny is a work in progress.. and a magazine car. as such things change.. I'm on my fourth engine, fourth type of tire, third set of gauges, third transmission, etc

You get the idea. I WON the Optima on the Wilwoods, the company has always been good to me and thier products never let me down. I had a brake problem ONCE and that was because I ran the wrong pads and cooked them on the track.

Baer is an advertiser in my book, they also sponsor quite a few events (like the Optima) and they make a great product. When they asked me to try thier stuff I decided to since I had never ran Baer products and wanted to see how they were. Since I'm often asked my opinion on stuff it's good to get experience with a lot of different companies so I can offer intelligent (i hope) thoughts.

I will say thier stuff worked great.. as evidenced by the fact that I came in second for the 0-60-0, beating the GT-R. Baer also had great customer service and they are a great company to work with.

I like both brands and wouldn't hessitate to use either on a project. In fact the Track Rat project has a set of Baer brakes waiting in the garage.

The only problem with the Baer brakes at the Optima was that we were BRAND NEW.. as in put on the night before. Because of this David was afraid to push them on the track, that combined with unfamiliar times led to lower than expected lap times.

I on the other hand am to stubborn to take it easy on stuff so I pushed the brakes and they rewarded me with a 7.4 second 0-60-0.

I hope that sets the record straight.. feel free to ask me any questions.

[Matt@BOS]

Nice of you to jump in here. While I was joking, I wouldn't want anyone to take my statement to heart, especially considering that many weren't aware of why you switched brakes. Now, I just have one question, what were your lap times in '09 compared to '08? I ask just out of curiosity, you don't have to give a detailed description of what changed from year to year, unless, of course you'd like to. I know there were so many other factors to account for you could probably write a year to year comparison test about experience you and David had with Bad Penny at Optima in '08 vs '09 for Camaro Performers.

Matt

[Payton King]

In your above post you stated "unfamiliar times" and I know you meant to say "unfamiliar TIRES"

Happens to me all the time when i am typing fast and have a lot to say.

I still think the TV interviews you did for the Optima Challenge will finally launch your porn career. LOL

Really, you did a great job...well spoken

[Steve1968LS2]

Nice of you to jump in here. While I was joking, I wouldn't want anyone to take my statement to heart, especially considering that many weren't aware of why you switched brakes. Now, I just have one question, what were your lap times in '09 compared to '08? I ask just out of curiosity, you don't have to give a detailed description of what changed from year to year, unless, of course you'd like to. I know there were so many other factors to account for you could probably write a year to year comparison test about experience you and David had with Bad Penny at Optima in '08 vs '09 for Camaro Performers.

Matt

I just didn't want people to get the wrong idea.. Wilwood has been nothing but good to me :)

About the same on the lap times.. funny since we were faster in the top speeds. But, as Dave pointed out, he broke sooner and due to a lack of time with the tires didn't feel he pushed the car hard enough.

We suffered from not knowing the car on those tires. But overall the car was MUCH better than last year. Heck, it was crazy good in the autocross on my exhibition lap.

[Steve1968LS2]

In your above post you stated "unfamiliar times" and I know you meant to say "unfamiliar TIRES"

Happens to me all the time when i am typing fast and have a lot to say.

I still think the TV interviews you did for the Optima Challenge will finally launch your porn career. LOL

Really, you did a great job...well spoken

That's it.. I'm firing my copy editor!!!!!!!!!!

[6'9"Witha69]

That's it.. I'm firing my copy editor!!!!!!!!!!
Steve, would you please show Steve to the door.