Toyota stops sales of 8 models in recall

[Twentyover]

Posted without comment

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-01-26-toyota_N.htm

By James R. Healey (http://www.usatoday.com/community/tags/reporter.aspx?id=260), USA TODAY
In an unprecedented auto-industry move — but echoing the massive Tylenol drug recall of 1982 — Toyota told its U.S. dealers Tuesday to immediately quit selling the new and used cars and trucks that it recalled on Jan. 21 because their throttles could stick open.

Toyota also said that it will quit building 2010 versions of those models Monday and that the halt will last until it finds a remedy for the stuck-throttle problem. That could take weeks, the company previously said, but it gave no forecast Tuesday.

For auto shoppers, it means that some of the most popular Toyota-brand vehicles will be harder to find or not available.
"This is major," says Jessica Caldwell, senior auto analyst at industry tracker Edmunds.com (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Companies/Publishers,+Media,+Music/Edmunds). The eight vehicles involved make up about two-thirds of Toyota-brand sales in the U.S., she estimates. Toyota's Lexus and Scion brands are not involved in this recall or the sales and production halts.


(http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/01/toyota-recall-heres-a-quick-qa-for-owners-that-may-help/1)


It's the right move — finally, says James Bell, executive market analyst at auto research site kbb.com. "It reminds me how conservative the culture is at Toyota."


Until Tuesday, Toyota had said it would continue making and selling the 2010 versions of the recalled models. It said the sticking-throttle problem appears only with age and wear, so new ones are safe.

"Restoring confidence in Toyota" and ensuring customer safety were cited by Toyota U.S. Vice President Bob Carter as reasons for the halt.

"Toyota can recover, but this major and perhaps unprecedented step suggests the problem is serious," says Carl Tobias, professor at the University of Richmond (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Schools/University+of+Richmond)'s law school. On the other hand, he says, the drastic action shows that "Toyota is serious about fixing" the problem as well as its image.

Tylenol maker Johnson & Johnson pulled pain medicine Tylenol from shelves in 1982 when seven people died after taking it. Those packages had been tampered with and poisoned. J&J later was praised for bold and fast action. Tylenol regained its popularity quickly once it returned to the market, with anti-tampering packaging.

Toyota's sticking-throttle recall is different from the recall of 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles late last year. In that one, throttles could get jammed open by floor mats. Toyota is trimming the gas pedals and later will replace them with pedals of a different design.

However, 1.7 million vehicles in the latest recall also are included in the floor-mat-related recall.

[79-TA]

My bet is that the dealers feign ignorance for as long as possible.

[John Wright]

Doesn't sound good for them right now....

(I was getting ready to post up a thread about this, so I'll add my link to the story in here)

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/toyota-suspends-sales-models-accelerator-pedals-sticking/story?id=9669621

[Mike Holleman]

Don't want to show my ignorance here, but are all those models mechanical throttles or DBW? Surely they all share the same basic system.
Mike

[trapin]

{sigh}......and so life at the top continues to be a dicey proposition.

[130fe]

My bet is that the dealers feign ignorance for as long as possible.

I just bought an 2010 avalon a couple of months ago (just before the pdeal story came out). I have had to go to the dealer a couple of times for minor issues and when I asked the service guy (not the technician) he gave me the "everythign is fine" and the news is blowing this out of proportion. That particular service guy told me that the guy that died (where everything originated from) had 2 sets of floormats and he didn't know "how to drive". I told him that the guy was a law enforcement guy and he probably had an "idea" of "what he was doing". I was really aggravated that that particular guy was treating me like I was 10 years old and didn't know how to operate particular systems in my car. I was patient for a while them I kindly told him to STFU and got another service help guy when I had lost my patience with him and his condesending attitude. Some of the service guys (not the technicians) are almost worse than the salesman to deal with. I trust (or hope) that Toyota will do the right thing and correct this problem so noone else gets hurt.

[Taman]

Bet this helps their sales. The problem dates back to 2003. So Toyota gas been ignoring this for 7 years now.Toyota doesn't even know whats causing the pedal issue so how can they fix it. When I was looking at new cars in 06, Toyota was just starting to admit there was a problem. There were 6 cars in the service department with the pedal issue and a fuel system issue. The cars were in there for over 2 months. No loaners or payment help. I talked to 2 of the owners after they left the service department screaming. Everyone slams GM but, they have never had to stop selling entire lines of vehicles to fix a safety issue. The lawsuits will be flying.

[John Wright]

How are they getting around the lemon law....don't they have to fix it or take it back after so many tries?

[dadto2jays]

How are they getting around the lemon law....don't they have to fix it or take it back after so many tries?

NO!!!

It has to be proven that there is an issue before an arbitrator will rule that a vehicle is deemed a lemon. Just because you bring it to the dealership three times does not mean anything unless there is a problem. My wife drives an Avalon and she has never felt anything even remotely to the vehicle accelerating itself. I drive company demos which are all toyotas and I turned them in every 5k mileswhich is roughly 5-7 camrys a year and I have never felt anything out of the ordinary.

[Taman]

The lemon law protects the manufacturer not the consumer. I had a 89 Camaro that was in the shop 4 months for the year I owned it. 22 times for the same stall problem, a trans, rear end. The first 6 times the dealer said no problem and I was lying. It was VERY repeatable problem. They didn't listen to me.
When I received my hearing, I had 15k miles on the car and it was 9 months old. The arbitrator ruled they could discount my car by $.25 a mile and depriciation. I was going to receive only $6900 for a car I paid 13k for 9 months prior. All I wanted was credit for the amount I paid towards a new GM car. GM laughed. I traded it in and received 10k on the trade. Don't think the lemon law will protect the consumer. It doesn't.

[79-TA]

A new twist on the story . . . Toyota is not issuing the recall as a result of their own concern and good will.

http://jalopnik.com/5458241/toyota-neglects-to-mention-sale-of-vehicles-halted-because-feds-forced-them


And for those who haven't followed as closely, they've proven this to be a mechanical issue, not just poor floor mat fitting.

[ProMav71]

Lawyers are going to have a field day with this. Our network Toyota dealership is pissed because over 3/4 of their inventory cant be sold! A parking lot full of brand new cars that you cant sell has to suck. Although the service departments will be busy for a while.

[John Wright]

That is alot of inventory just sitting....wow, that is gonna hurt, no matter how they spin it.

[JChilders]

I remember reading a story a while ago where Toyota was basically blaming the drivers and trying to pass the buck. Just poor business in my opinion. If you make a mistake own up to it and make it right.

[John Wright]

Jeep cherokees had a similar deal except it was the placement of the brake and gas pedal because of a large tranny tunnel, along with Audi....wasn't long after those cases we saw safety switches that wouldn't let you go from Park or Neutral unless you depressed the brake pedal first.


People were running over their kids and through the backs of their garages, and all kinds of weird stuff...at first they tried to say it was driver error, then the safety fixes came out.

[twosaturns]

these are all drive-by-wire setups; what I've been reading seems to indicate that there is a once in a while combination of factors that messes w/ the throttle algorithm. the NHSTA hasn't been able to repeat it under controlled circumstances (though you can bet ALL toyota engineers are working on finding it now!)
just because it hasn't happened to you personally doesn't mean it isn't a serious problem. how many people need to die before it is serious?
just a comment about GM and recalls (I'm not sharing this to bash GM, just to show how corporations think):
there was an issue years ago w/ the placement of the gas tank; which, as we know, is between the bumper and the axle. rear end collisions, explosions and whatnot (no, I don't have a reference). GM's accountants actually figured out it was cheaper (at the time) to pay out death benefits than to redesign the car.
so, toyota trying to shift the blame here is just how corporations try to protect themselves and the shareholders.

[John Wright]

there was an issue years ago w/ the placement of the gas tank; which, as we know, is between the bumper and the axle. rear end collisions, explosions and whatnot (no, I don't have a reference). GM's accountants actually figured out it was cheaper (at the time) to pay out death benefits than to redesign the car.

Ford Pinto....LOL

I thought GM had the problem with gas tanks on the outside of the frame rails(mainly pickups in the mid 70's)...side impacts were rupturing the tanks....even went so far as to the impact the school bus lines of chassis' as well.

[Jim Nilsen]

WAM (World Auto Manufacturers) is coming. I predicted it back when Chrysler put Mitsubishi engines in their cars to meet emissions. The government through the media, EPA regulations and the NHSTA will eventually make it so that all of the manufactures have to run the same certified equipment to sell a single vehicle in the U.S. or abroad. The group is getting smaller everyday as to who isn't putting each others parts on their cars.

The majority of the people will not only accept this but demand it for their saftey. Of coarse these people don't have jobs effected by this and will not think of the consequences it will have as they haven't had a clue as to what has happened in the past or even the now moment.

It is going to be interesting to see what the media plays/ignores out the real information/truth from the rumors and lies. I can see this getting real messy and how the public responds is going to have little to the with outcome of what the major players are looking to do but the media will play it out as the consumer demanding it and it all being for our own good.

Can transportation because we are all afraid or to lazy to walk or stand up for what is needed lead to this, you bet your bippy.

[Mike Holleman]

these are all drive-by-wire setups; what I've been reading seems to indicate that there is a once in a while combination of factors that messes w/ the throttle algorithm. the NHSTA hasn't been able to repeat it under controlled circumstances (though you can bet ALL toyota engineers are working on finding it now!)
just because it hasn't happened to you personally doesn't mean it isn't a serious problem. how many people need to die before it is serious?
just a comment about GM and recalls (I'm not sharing this to bash GM, just to show how corporations think):
there was an issue years ago w/ the placement of the gas tank; which, as we know, is between the bumper and the axle. rear end collisions, explosions and whatnot (no, I don't have a reference). GM's accountants actually figured out it was cheaper (at the time) to pay out death benefits than to redesign the car.
so, toyota trying to shift the blame here is just how corporations try to protect themselves and the shareholders.
Thanks for answering my question. With a DBW system it makes a bit more sense that the fix has been hard to pin down. A little side bar, I am running DBW on my Elky. ECTA rules state that all throttles have a double return spring. That is impossible for me to do being there is no external linkage to attach it to. I made them happy with a shutdown switch next to my shifter that kills the ECM, fuel pump and injectors. It would be a cheap way for Toyota to buy some time, installing a panic button that does not lock the steering.

[79-TA]

Ok folks, let the dealer dishonesty/not quite entirely true explanations begin! Stay classy, Toyota dealers.

To be fair, the guy says the car can't be delivered until the repair was made, granted he has no idea what exactly that would take in terms of time.

http://jalopnik.com/5458284/toyota-dealership-tries-to-sell-recalled-camry-over-phone

[79-TA]

While on a Jalopnik linking spree, here are the Toyota's one can purchase without gas pedal troubles.

http://jalopnik.com/5457704/the-toyotas-you-can-buy-without-fear-of-fiery-death

It would have been appropriate to include the Pontiac Matr . . . err, Vibe though. (Yes, despite being basically a Matrix the GM NUMMI car uses a different pedal that doesn't cause unintentional acceleration.)

[Jim Nilsen]

I just had a moment wishing that I could get some unintended acceleration from my car when the pedal was already to the floor.:rotfl:

[youthpastor]

mom mom (an elderly lady) has been sweating this for months. She just dropped her car off (2007 Camary) and has a rental indefinelty- WOW

[moreHP]

Of all the recalls I have heard of over the years, I think this is the first time I ever heard of stopping production completely and stopping the sales of cars. Thats crazy! I can only imaging the real threat it must be if they go to this extreme.

[ls6monte]

This is going to hurt the company. Those 8 models represent 57% of the cars they sold here last year.

[Twentyover]

further reading, the DBW throttles were all built @ CTS in Ontario, Canada, and not interchangeable with Denso supplied DBW throttles.

I remember reading that there was a throttle bushing change from Nylon 46 to PPE(?) in an attempt to prevent water caused seizure.

[Kenova]

further reading, the DBW throttles were all built @ CTS in Ontario, Canada,.....
Are we looking at a production problem, or an engineering problem?

Ken

[Taman]

Toyota isn't sure what's happeneing. There is reports of the brakes also failing. This is a system failure. It's got to be a combination of mechanical and software issues. If it was just a pedal problem then other manufactures would also be having this issue. These pedals are used in more than on vehicle. Toyota does have some propriertary design but, it can't be that much different than GM or Ford are using. I love the spin Toyota is putting on the problem. They may have shut down production on their own, bur bet the stop sale order came from the government. I wonder what all the people that purchased a covered vehicle do. Drive their kids to school in it? I am sure glad I drive a Chevy.

[shmoov69]

IT's all good!!! Big O will just bail them out with our tax dollars! Lol

[Twentyover]

Are we looking at a production problem, or an engineering problem?

Ken

Material selection is generally under the purview of Engineering

[steelcity6]

Didnt they just recall all the Tacoma trucks not long ago for structural (frame) problems?

[surlyjoe]

Does anyone know what is really causing the problem? I can't wait for the media to turn this into every new car with drive by wire is a time bomb waiting to go off.

[John Wright]

Crap...just heard this morning that Pontiac is also having some problems with a couple lines...Vibe was one that I remember, and there were a couple more

[twosaturns]

Crap...just heard this morning that Pontiac is also having some problems with a couple lines...Vibe was one that I remember, and there were a couple more
pontiac has already been discontinued, who cares about the vibe?
the vibe should be the only one affected, since its the same car as the toyota matrix.

[LMDGUY]

I work for a large company that owns about 50 dealerships. We were asked by corprate to remove all toyota off the lots. We were told to inspect the cars for which type (brand) of pedal it had. It only effects one of the two brands. But always remember that if your car ever throttles out of control to shift the car into neutral and turn off the ignition.

[Kenova]

But always remember that if your car ever throttles out of control to shift the car into neutral and turn off the ignition.
Easier said than done if the car has pushbutton start.

Ken

[John Wright]

But always remember that if your car ever throttles out of control to shift the car into neutral and turn off the ignition.
I don't fully agree with this suggestion...in a panic, you can turn the key too far and lock the steering in one position...then the more you fight the steering wheel the harder it might be to get the key turned back so that the steering unlocks.....

I say shift to N and let the motor zing...at least you'll have power steering and power brakes(until the rods make windows).

[ErikLS2]

I'm very involved with this problem. Best thing to do is first put it into neutral, come to a stop and THEN turn off the engine otherwise power steering will be lost and power brakes may be gone too before the car comes to a stop.

Now, on pushbutton start, same thing but to turn off the engine, push and hold the button until the engine quits, about 3 secs.

Just heard on the radio this morning Ford is doing a stop sale on some cars in China for this same issue. How big is this going to get I wonder?

[Jim Nilsen]

I am going to start praying for you guys that have C5 and C6 's if this problem starts to occur in Corvettes.But most of you guys will know to just shift into neutral and let'er rip.:machine: