Decisions (Attn. Shop owners/workers)

[Draginutz]

Ok this might get long I apologize in advance. I am looking for some career help. Any shop/business owners/works please chime in.

I am always looking for a new/better job opportunity for myself. I currently make ok money (I am salary with some paid time off and no benefits) doing Vinyl Graphics on mostly Fleet/Commercial vehicles. Business for my shop owner is good, we are super busy. However I think I am pretty much stuck where I am there. Meaning I am topped out on pay and there are no positions open above me. Anyway I have had two other job offers from Restoration/Hot Rod shops in my area (one 40 mins away, one an hour away). I would be doing mostly body/sheet metal work but have experience in most automotive systems and would lend a hand were needed.

The first that's closest wants to hire me for $1 more an hour than I am making now. It would be a 30 day trial and then after that we would talk and see if its working and if I am worth more than he will adjust accordingly. I would be hourly 8-5 M-F with 1 hour lunch and no benefits for the first year. Pay is based on time punched in/out on each car worked on. Then after a year paid time off. I also need to provide all my own tools.

The other one I have pretty much decided that an hour each way is not going to work for me. But here are the details on this one. I would start at $2 less an hour than what I am at now. It would be under the table pay (shady). No benefits. He provides all tools/materials. After 30-40 days I get reassessed and pay get adjusted accordingly. He would also teach/improve skill as needed and where needed.

Both owners seem down to earth and are back logged over a year. Both are shops detached from their houses in the country. One in north Denver the other is southeast of Denver. Both shops have good reputations but are small 1 or 2 man operations (currently). I am nervous about leaving my current, stable (ok paying), job of 2 years to go to such small isolated shops. Should I keep looking or should I pull the trigger and see I if I sink or swim? Also note that I am married and own a condo. My wife will be changing jobs on January 25 2010 and we use her benefits which will be descent for now. I have found in the past that most restoration/ hot rod shops around here don't offer much in the way of benefits/extras besides a paycheck. Is this pretty common or is it just these small shops? Any help or ideas on what to do would be great. Feel free to post comment or questions. I need to let both shops know soon what I decide and if I decide that I can't do it now, how do I not burn that bridge so that maybe later down the road when they are looking again and I want the job they still consider me again?

A third option out of left field is that another sign company in town is building and building to expand their business to do vehicle graphics. I have spoken very briefly with the owner and she was kicking around the idea of finding a manager to run this new shop. She also mentioned sending said manager to art school and really investing in them to be the future of the company. However ground hasn't even been broken on said building so it is a far and distant option

Thanks
Pete

[HotRod47]

I have worked for many years in the autobody industry. So I can relate. Here in Conn. there are many shops that offer benefits other than pay. Some still don't, but if you don't need them than there isn't a problem.

I always found that once in a while I had to change jobs just keep my pay up. I found that shop owners can get complacent when it comes to my value. Where as a another shop might value my skills at a higher pay rate than where I currently am. Sometimes you just have to test the waters! In this economy, I can't make that call for you though. Not sure what I would do in your shoes. The under the table shop is out of the question in my eyes. No Job security there.

The other business is interesting, however you would have to say it will take a year to get the other building built and running. Might be a good job once up and running.

As far as not burning bridges, just be honest. Tell the under the table shop that you need more security than that right now. But if he ever changes his policy you would be interested in talking further. He should understand that. The other shop you could tell that with the added commute and everything that maybe now isn't the time to change jobs. Again, maybe in the future. Always leave the door cracked open!

I had a restoration shop once offer me a job. I really wanted to go there too. But he didn't offer any health insurance. I was married and needed it. We parted ways that maybe some day if things changed? He called me a year later needing a new guy and now he had ins. available. My point, always leave the door cracked open a bit!

Good luck to you,
Glenn

[justasquid]

Im not shop owner, but heres my thought. The one under the table would be out in my opinion as well.

If your wife makes enough money to support the two of you without any income from you, then I say go for it. There is nothing worse than sitting in a job that you really don't like and can't see a future in.

I would keep in close contact with the possible manager jobs postion and start the resto shop that is closest to you. The only down side I can see is the requirement of you to have your own tools, but to what extent? Just basic hand tools shouldn't be too hard, but some specialized tools can get expensive. I would have to imagine that he has those types of tools at your disposal. Plus, it will let you know if you like that type of work. Also, even if the guy doesn't state he will train you, you will be trained. You can't help but learn new things.

If you have kids, (which you didn't mention) I would think differently. But there are not many oportunities to go after something you want. If you are planning of having kids in the future, decide now what you want to do. Otherwise, you may regret it later on.

Just don't burn any bridges... as already said. Even if it means working where your at for a little longer than 2 weeks. Give your current employer plenty of notice. In this economy, you don't need anything working against you.

[Draginutz]

Thanks guys. All good advice.

[LateNight72]

The second shop can be ruled out immediately, in my opinion.

With Shop #2 ruled out, I want to ask you a couple questions about Shop #1, and you do not need to respond to them, they're more of "thinking" questions.

1) Are you okay with $1/hr more for the rest of your life? Don't expect to get a raise after 30 days.
2) What happens if you leave your current job, and things do not work out for you after 30 days? What will you do?
3) What are the punch-in, punch-out policies and working on cars? Will you be able to get the full 8 hours of pay during the 8hr work day?
4) Worst comes to worst, and the shop slows down after their 1 year bookings are finished. What next?

If there is any doubt in the job's ability to provide work and pay into the foreseeable future, are you okay with possibly being without an income? Are you capable of sustaining yourself if the jobs do dry up?

If you have some type of doubt, it's seriously something you need to think about. 1 year is not a substantial length of time.

My opinion would be to stay at your current position and pursue the managerial position at the other sign shop.

[Draginutz]

Thats what my gut tells me too Todd.
Thanks

[sunkistcamaro]

I second this opinion.

My opinion would be to stay at your current position and pursue the managerial position at the other sign shop.

[Pro Stock]

Ok this might get long I apologize in advance. I am looking for some career help. Any shop/business owners/works please chime in.

I am always looking for a new/better job opportunity for myself. I currently make ok money (I am salary with some paid time off and no benefits) doing Vinyl Graphics on mostly Fleet/Commercial vehicles. Business for my shop owner is good, we are super busy. However I think I am pretty much stuck where I am there. Meaning I am topped out on pay and there are no positions open above me. Anyway I have had two other job offers from Restoration/Hot Rod shops in my area (one 40 mins away, one an hour away). I would be doing mostly body/sheet metal work but have experience in most automotive systems and would lend a hand were needed.

The first that's closest wants to hire me for $1 more an hour than I am making now. It would be a 30 day trial and then after that we would talk and see if its working and if I am worth more than he will adjust accordingly. I would be hourly 8-5 M-F with 1 hour lunch and no benefits for the first year. Pay is based on time punched in/out on each car worked on. Then after a year paid time off. I also need to provide all my own tools.

The other one I have pretty much decided that an hour each way is not going to work for me. But here are the details on this one. I would start at $2 less an hour than what I am at now. It would be under the table pay (shady). No benefits. He provides all tools/materials. After 30-40 days I get reassessed and pay get adjusted accordingly. He would also teach/improve skill as needed and where needed.

Both owners seem down to earth and are back logged over a year. Both are shops detached from their houses in the country. One in north Denver the other is southeast of Denver. Both shops have good reputations but are small 1 or 2 man operations (currently). I am nervous about leaving my current, stable (ok paying), job of 2 years to go to such small isolated shops. Should I keep looking or should I pull the trigger and see I if I sink or swim? Also note that I am married and own a condo. My wife will be changing jobs on January 25 2010 and we use her benefits which will be descent for now. I have found in the past that most restoration/ hot rod shops around here don't offer much in the way of benefits/extras besides a paycheck. Is this pretty common or is it just these small shops? Any help or ideas on what to do would be great. Feel free to post comment or questions. I need to let both shops know soon what I decide and if I decide that I can't do it now, how do I not burn that bridge so that maybe later down the road when they are looking again and I want the job they still consider me again?

A third option out of left field is that another sign company in town is building and building to expand their business to do vehicle graphics. I have spoken very briefly with the owner and she was kicking around the idea of finding a manager to run this new shop. She also mentioned sending said manager to art school and really investing in them to be the future of the company. However ground hasn't even been broken on said building so it is a far and distant option

Thanks
Pete


If it is a stable job keep your cuurrent job and in the meantime work with the lady on option number three. Ask her if she would be willing to start your schooling in the near future and pay you a salary while going to school, if she agrees I would find a school in the Charlotte, North Carolina area that gives instruction on wrapping race cars, these guys are awesome with vinyl and this is probably the best area in the country to learn your trade. I realize that you are not looking to do race cars but if you can do that you will be more than qualified to do anything. If all of this could happen you and her could time all of this to come together by the time she is able to open her shop. If you have any questions you can either pm or email me.

Dale

[Draginutz]

Thanks Dale I will.

[venturabeachpup]

Pete, I think I'll join in agreement with the other guys. Stay away from the "under the table" shop. Thats something I would consider only if I could do it in addition to my regular job for extra money. Even then it could have some negative legal consequences if you get busted. Or what if you get hurt on the job????

Personally I would not drive any further for an extra buck an hour. LateNite72 brings up a good point about the possibility of not clocking enough hrs. Hec, you might end up with a pay cut!

I say explore option 3. Wait for it. It sounds exciting and it may be just what you need.

[Draginutz]

Well I told the guy up north, thanks but no thanks. I am waiting to talk to the guy out east and see if the offer is nego. I also am waiting to hear back on the mang. position at the sign shop. So We will see what happens. THanks guys for the advice.

[Draginutz]

Well good news. Just talked to my shop owner and I am now the Production Manager. Just goes to show you, if you don't ask you won't ever find out. Man this puts my mind at ease. Besides I think production manager looks better than pee-on, on a resume. Thanks again for the advice guys.

[LateNight72]

Congrats on the promotion!

[Draginutz]

Thanks Todd

[Draginutz]

Ok, I know I was all pumped about my new "promotion" about a month ago. Well I just received my 1st check as Production Manager and it turns out I got a whopping $1.08 raise!?!? Does this seem right? I mean last xmas I got a bonus and raise. This xmas I got nothing. So in my eyes all I really got with this promotion was a little bit more than what should have been my raise and a lot more responsibility. What should I do? How do I approach this without pissing off the owner?

[gkring]

Well I would never take a promotion without knowing the new requirements as well as the new payplan. Now that it is done you have to ask yourself a few questions.

Are you looking for opportunity, recognition, or money? By the time people start asking for money at a job they are already lacking in the other two categories. I am talking jobs were a person is already working and was at least previously satisfied if not happy at it. I would not fall in love with what you think is a "cool" job at a hot rod shop, especially the one or two man operations. Think in terms of building a resume. Someone listed as a production manager at a graphics shop tells me they have responsabilities. I would consider them in a supervisor or production manager positions for all kinds of industries. On the flip side someone with years of experience as a body man in a hotrod shop doesn't carry much weight with me if I was hiring for someone to run a car rental agency, shipping and receiving warehouse, or any other job requiring people interaction. I always tell people to increase their value to the company. Time served is not increased value, but experience learned is. Make your boss understand you want to grow with the company and don't mention compensation as the reason. Honest 6 month and 2 year plans would be something you should sit down and put some serious thought into. if you can't call your current job a career then I would get out if you can. I would not consider either of your first two options, but the third sounds like a step in the right direction.

[sniper]

My friend owns a commercial heating and air company. He usually gives his employees profit sharing bonuses at the end of the year. With sales down nearly $3 million from the previous year ( it's only a 4 or 5 million dollar business) do you think there were any bonuses given out?

I am saying that because "bonuses" become expected, by employees no matter what the company is doing. And if the "bonuses" are not directly scripted then it can become a mess. If employee des X he gets Y. That makes things real easy.

I don't know what you make an hour or anything. But if you make anything under $20 an hour, a $1.08 raise is a decent hourly raise in this economy. Even at $20 an hour that is a 5.4% increase in pay.

The following is not a hit at you directly, so procede with that understanding.

Most employees think they deserve way more than they are worth. When in fact in this type of economy when there are more workers than posistions available, the hourly rate can drop significantly.

[Draginutz]

Understood. It is my own fault for not asking up front. I am lucky to even have a steady, secure job. I realized that last night. I figure I will do my best and take on the responsibility and see what the future brings. The only problem I have with the whole bonus thing is we finished the year further ahead than the previous and to receive nothing from the owner at Xmas was kind of a let down. Considering we were promised a company dinner that got postponed until January and then just got forgotten about. I am not greedy I would have been happy with a $10 gift card or just something to show appreciation, that's all. I think when an owner can get in their private plane and fly to Cali. and hang out on their Yacht multiple times a year then they could do something for their employees. Again I am lucky to have a job and receive a raise but I guess for me it is the little things. Please and thank you goes a long way in my book. Anyway now I am just nit picking. Thanks for the responses.

[monteboy84]

I'd stay where you're at, much more security than at a small-time rod shop. If you want to give the hot rod deal a test-drive, see about either these shops, or another one local, having you come out on weekends and work for very little money, just to give it a try, think of it as an apprenticeship. It's a good chance to test the water without throwing away what you've already got.

Also, if you're really good with vinyl and signwork, look into getting your own vinyl cutter and starting your own side-business. You wouldn't have much of a learning curve, and in reality, start-up/overhead costs are pretty minimal.


I think when an owner can get in their private plane and fly to Cali. and hang out on their Yacht multiple times a year then they could do something for their employees.

Rule number one for me: Never ever worry about what the owner is or is not able to afford in their free-time. They've done their part to get themselves where they are, their only promise to me is to pay me for the hours that I work. If I feel I am inadequately reimbursed for the hours I am working for them, it is my responsibility to bring it up with them at appropriate time. Outside of that, their yacht or whatever is of no concern to me, nor should it be of concern to you.

[sniper]

I am not greedy I would have been happy with a $10 gift card or just something to show appreciation, that's all.
That's what everyone says. My wife and the people where she works got $5 gift cards from wal-mart. It pissed more people off than it did for appreciation.
Telling you they were going to do something and not doing it is ****ty. You can call them on it.

I think when an owner can get in their private plane and fly to Cali. and hang out on their Yacht multiple times a year then they could do something for their employees.
This will come across as harsh. I make no apologies for it.

AHHHHH! And there we have it. I got to tell ya, that really grates me. You see it all the time with employees and their owners. It is none of your business what the owner does. You are the employee. You accepted a wage to do a job. Bottom line.
An owner has taken all the risk. An owner has spent HIS money to build the business. An owner has put his private capital and assets on the line to grow. An owner rarely gets away from his business. You can clock and and go home, never thinking about your job.
If those things bother you too much, ultimately you have the control. You can find another job. But what if that owner does more things that you don't approve of?
You do not have to settle and accept the conditions in which you find yourself. It may not be easy to get there, but you can do whatever you want for a career.
Lastly, it's not the poor people that provide jobs.

[Draginutz]

I see your points. What they do outside of work is really none of my concern however, when they don't show any appreciation and say they will do something and then go on vacation that rubs me wrong. I guess you would have to be in my shoes to see what I am saying. I think that if an owner can afford all the luxurys than good for them but when you don't stop to thank, in some form or fashion, the people that are helping you to bring in the money for said goods thats where I have a problem. I guess I am looking too deep into this and like I said earlier I am just glad I have what I do.