Apparently GM is in a WHOLE Lot Worse Shape Than We Thought!!!

[vintageracer]

The GM Board of Directors (BOD) has just sold GM's controlling interest in GM China to a Chinese company. GM is NOW a minority owner of GM China. Now realize that China is the new growing market in the car business and GM has the best selling car in China.

Mark that in contrast to the GM Board of Directors recent decision and statement concerning OPEL that GM did not want to sell part of the company and become a minority owner of any of their divisions. OPEL is having problems and has no vehicles that are a top seller anywhere in the world and the BOD wants to keep this operation over China. Sounds like a great business and marketing decision to me!!!

Kinda intersting that the GM BOD will not make ANY statements as to why they made the decision to sell their controlling interest in GM China but have stated the above with regard to their negotiations to sell OPEL in Germany. GM marketing and decision making at its finest!

Oh! By the way I am now really excited my my investment (taxpayer ownership) in GM. GM has just reported that they have ONLY LOST $1MM (that's ONE BILLION DOLLARS) in the first 6 months since emerging from bankruptcy. This performance is so good that they decided to replace their Chairman of the BOD and tell me what a GREAT job he has done running GM during the bankruptcy filing and during the last since months since GM emerged from bankruptcy.

Now I am REALLY excited that the new interim Chairman of the BOD who was also member the BOD making all these great decisions.

This bunch of BOZO'S may go broke before Fiat/Chrysler!!!!

[neki67]

Mark that in contrast to the GM Board of Directors recent decision and statement concerning OPAL that GM did not want to sell part of the company and become a minority owner of any of their divisions. OPAL is having problems and has no vehicles that are a top seller anywhere in the world and the BOD wants to keep this operation over China.

Guess you mean Opel??

Never been a great fan of Opel but in their and GM's defense: their not doing all that bad and are well within the top 5 in Western Europe. Most certainly not as a big a market as China but it's also certainly not true that they are doing all that bad.

Have a look at the Western European sales figures for 2009 (till Nov.)

http://www.dealersupportnet.nl/Files/acea%20pc%2011-2009.xls

[Turbo Rob]

Dank je Niki67 (Opel vs Opel),

[Tony_SS]

From what I understood, alot of the bailout for GM went to their oversea markets:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-motor-spend-taxpayer-bailout-money-overseas-operations/story?id=9091248

2004 article
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5156346

they know where the emerging markets are.. and for the foreseeable future, it aint here. Now we, the taxpayers are (yet again) funding our own demise.

[megaladon6]

i wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't have a choice. a few years ago china threatened to nationalize the GM and VW factories. GM and VW would up having to hand over all blueprints--car and tooling! i definitely see china doing it again.

[vintageracer]

Guess you mean Opel??


Already fixed that!

[Boyd]

Did they disclose how much they sold their China interest for? Since the market potential for China is so HUGE, my guess is companies were willing to pay BIG bucks for a piece of the auto business.

Cash strapped GM simply sold an asset to the highest bidder.

As far as the Opel deal goes- it's a decent company with good market share that requires minimal (compared to GM's China investment) $$ support from GM USA.

Right now GM is trying to cut the bleeding while gaining the confidence of the American consumer. I don't have a problem with either deal.

[seekins]

Did they disclose how much they sold their China interest for? Since the market potential for China is so HUGE, my guess is companies were willing to pay BIG bucks for a piece of the auto business.

Cash strapped GM simply sold an asset to the highest bidder.

As far as the Opel deal goes- it's a decent company with good market share that requires minimal (compared to GM's China investment) $$ support from GM USA.

Right now GM is trying to cut the bleeding while gaining the confidence of the American consumer. I don't have a problem with either deal.

Doubtful, China doesnt play nice and i would bet it was either sell it or they would just take it. I love GM stuff, but i wish the would have just been left alone like every other business in the US would when they are having hard times. Dont worry tho, im sure our grand kids will be happy to pay for our countries interest in GM, that will no longer exist.

Here is how china plays. :bsjerk:

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/...tion-in-china/ (http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/)

[neki67]

France: http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/france/france_economy.html

USA: http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/united_states/united_states_economy.html

Top10 GDP countries: http://www.photius.com/rankings/gdp_2050_projection.html

[Jim Nilsen]

Doubtful, China doesnt play nice and i would bet it was either sell it or they would just take it. I love GM stuff, but i wish the would have just been left alone like every other business in the US would when they are having hard times. Dont worry tho, im sure our grand kids will be happy to pay for our countries interest in GM, that will no longer exist.

Here is how china plays. :bsjerk:

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/...tion-in-china/

After seeing those pictures of the pollution that China spews out at our expense of no jobs and an EPA that thinks they have done the world a favor. If it was up to me I would send the EPA to China and never let them back into this country.

[DaviRotten]

We gotta play fair.. We gotta give cuts to importers to our country cause its right while those same countries rape us.. Reversing our foreign methods would help bring jobs and industry back to our country.. Any time you can take a product like steel produce it in china and ship it all the way here and up the mississippi to a oil line cheaper then a company in saint louis right there on the miss can is a serious issue.

[realcoray]

The original post blows this way out of porportion. GM is only selling 1% of it's interests, and that does give SAIC controlling interest, however GM has an option to buy the 1% back. For that 1%, they get money equal to about 20% of the value of the entire china operation. When you could use money, do you think trading 1% in equity for 20% in cash is a decent value, especially when you have the option to purchase the 1% back later when you're in a better position?

The fact is, GM has been selling stuff for a number of years now in an effort to have money around. Like how they sold a giant stake in GMAC (at the time one of the few bright spots), and sold Allison Transmission.

[This isn't the political section, don't get political here]

[mikedc]

----

GM has been so consistent & effective at making the worst long-term decision, in any given situation, for so many years . . . At this point almost anything they do just causes me to make the knee-jerk assumption that the opposite choice was the right idea.

----

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

you all better be learning your chinese... ahhahahaha

[Scott Parkhurst]

After seeing those pictures of the pollution that China spews out at our expense of no jobs and an EPA that thinks they have done the world a favor. If it was up to me I would send the EPA to China and never let them back into this country.


I grew up near the Love Canal. Pollution is NOT okay. The EPA has a function, and its important that someone keep an eye on industry, since they will (if given the chance) pollute to save a dime.

http://rochesternet.com/rides/lovecanal/

Eventually, China will figure this out, but not for a long time. They're making money now, but it will cost them later. The Love Canal deal started in 1942, but wasn't recognized as a 'problem' until 1978, and wasn't settled (legally) until 1995. That's 50 years, from start to (almost) finish. Bank on China's environmental woes to take at least that long to come to the surface (literally!).

The EPA does serve an important function. Think long term. Think about 3 or 4 generations in the future (or more). The dirt and water we live on will still be here- we will not. It might seem like a PITA and an unnecessary added expense right now, but we're still cleaning up poisons from our industrial revolution (search "superfund sites" if you'd like) and preventing such things from happening again, at least in our country, IS important.

If China doesn't care, fine. Let them screw up their own country for a short-term gain. After enough birth defects due to poisoned ground and water, they'll learn. Having seen this at Love Canal, where an obscene percentage of babies were born with gruesome birth defects and a really high rate of cancer, it's simply not worth it for the short term.

[FULMNTE]

Guys,

The EPA is only enforcing the environmental laws (Clean Air Act, for example) which are written by Congress. Don't blame the EPA for stuff they are NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!!

[mikedc]

I grew up near the Love Canal. Pollution is NOT okay. The EPA has a function, and its important that someone keep an eye on industry, since they will (if given the chance) pollute to save a dime.

http://rochesternet.com/rides/lovecanal/ (http://rochesternet.com/rides/lovecanal/)

Eventually, China will figure this out, but not for a long time. They're making money now, but it will cost them later. The Love Canal deal started in 1942, but wasn't recognized as a 'problem' until 1978, and wasn't settled (legally) until 1995. That's 50 years, from start to (almost) finish. Bank on China's environmental woes to take at least that long to come to the surface (literally!).

The EPA does serve an important function. Think long term. Think about 3 or 4 generations in the future (or more). The dirt and water we live on will still be here- we will not. It might seem like a PITA and an unnecessary added expense right now, but we're still cleaning up poisons from our industrial revolution (search "superfund sites" if you'd like) and preventing such things from happening again, at least in our country, IS important.

If China doesn't care, fine. Let them screw up their own country for a short-term gain. After enough birth defects due to poisoned ground and water, they'll learn. Having seen this at Love Canal, where an obscene percentage of babies were born with gruesome birth defects and a really high rate of cancer, it's simply not worth it for the short term.


That sounds a lot like sissy wanker talk to me.

Haven't you heard? REAL MEN always support the corporate state's unrestrained pollution policies!

[BonzoHansen]

Guys,

The EPA is only enforcing the environmental laws (Clean Air Act, for example) which are written by Congress. Don't blame the EPA for stuff they are NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!!

except that whole CO2 thing...they are abusing the clean air act in a big way...

[madmax]

That sounds a lot like sissy wanker talk to me.

Haven't you heard? REAL MEN always support the corporate state's unrestrained pollution policies!

:thankyou:

[wmhjr]

Guys,

The EPA is only enforcing the environmental laws (Clean Air Act, for example) which are written by Congress. Don't blame the EPA for stuff they are NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!!

That is absolutely untrue now. You apparently have not been paying attention to what is going on. The EPA - like the FCC - also writes policy which can (and does) have the effect of creating effective "law" without legislation. A clear example of this is their recent announcement about greenhouse gases, as well as their "threats" recently about what they would do if "real legislation" were not passed.

I completely agree that their need to be controls to protect the environment. I absolutely disagree that the EPA is either effective OR honest in that pursuit. I totally disagree that they simply follow the legislation that Congress enacts. They are renown for going far beyond the intent of legislation, having become an extremist organization without any oversight.

Beyond that - if anybody thinks that a "love canal" occuring in China would change things - you've never been there. Ain't gonna happen. In the meantime, if such stringent rules and regulations exist here but not in China, I just wonder what happens to manufacturing? Hmmmmm.....

Now THAT's change we can see.....

[FULMNTE]

That is absolutely untrue now. You apparently have not been paying attention to what is going on. The EPA - like the FCC - also writes policy which can (and does) have the effect of creating effective "law" without legislation. A clear example of this is their recent announcement about greenhouse gases, as well as their "threats" recently about what they would do if "real legislation" were not passed.


I have been 'following' the EPA for the last ten years and you are correct. That's why so many entities are sueing the EPA with good chances of success, since there is no 'law' to back up some of the policies and regulations... At least that keeps whole armies of lawyers employed...:)

[mikedc]

IMHO the federal govt stopped obeying its own rules a long time ago.

Tomorrow morning the Fed could start arresting people for political beliefs, take away our guns, jail people perpetually without trial, and order us to start housing & feeding their soldiers. We couldn't do anything about it. (What could we do? Sue the govt? That never works even if you're right.)

[trapin]

Mike (Vintage) I could not disagree with you any more. As a guy on the inside I find the current decision making going on at my company refreshing. It's been a long time since "non-producing" has gotten management fired. A lot of these bozo's (Henderson included) needed to go and I relieved to see we have a guy at the top that's not afraid to do it. There is much more going on behind the scenes as well which I can not divulge but for the first time in a long time I feel good about our prospects. This, to me, is a non-issue.

The only thing that's going to bring us back is PRODUCT. Nothing else. And we got it coming, a lot of it.

[vintageracer]

Tony,

For your sake and many others in the GM family I hope you are right!

As with anything else it's easy for me to armchair quarterback on the outside looking in. Depending on your level in "The Company" I would hope you have more information than us on the outside that makes outwardly foolish decisions make sense.

Ultimately product is what will fuel the potential turnaround. Camaro's and Corvettes are certainly NOT going to make that happen. It's going to take products that the average Joe consumer needs for transportation and I can pretty much bet that will not be much of anything "I" would like. Having said that I am positive management does not care about what I like since out of the 100's of cars/trucks I have owned I have only bought 1 new vehicle in my life. It's 15 years old, it' a Ford and I still have it!

I am glad to hear GM has new product and a lot of it coming. 2 BIG questions STILL remain. Can GM last long enough to actually bring these products to market before they run out of money again AND how many consumers will actually buy what you have to sell?

Time will tell as is usually the case!

[crustysack]

I will add a little fuel to this fire and my own humble opinion- last time I checked American economy is based on capitalism- buying and selling of items people want- supply and demand at its simplest terms- if you make something people want they will buy it- if you flood the market with overpriced( not worth what you pay) goods the market will collapse( as seen in the housing markets and yes automotive -think Hummer)-
now to my point- these businesses should have been allowed to COLLAPSE and fold and go bankrupt- why? to allow the next generation of innovators to take the reigns - piss poor management should not get a free pass- ask any small business owner whos business has folded and did not receive any bailout last year- what makes a bigger business special?? nothing except the fat cats in washington that listen to their woes- it is a cut throat world out there and if you want to survive as a business you better bring your A game ALL THE TIME- because there is always somebody more hungry than you

[mikedc]

IMHO there is nothing that's going to save Detriot but quality.


It's true that they've been steadily improving in the last 10-15 years but Japan has not been sitting still while they do it. Detroit has to make long-term quality their PRIMARY attribute or we're wasting our money bailing them out.

[Ash]

now to my point- these businesses should have been allowed to COLLAPSE and fold and go bankrupt- why? to allow the next generation of innovators to take the reigns - piss poor management should not get a free pass- ask any small business owner whos business has folded and did not receive any bailout last year- what makes a bigger business special?? nothing except the fat cats in washington that listen to their woes- it is a cut throat world out there and if you want to survive as a business you better bring your A game ALL THE TIME- because there is always somebody more hungry than you

My train of thought may be in err, but COLLAPSE for something as big as this (the U.S. auto industry) isn't as simple as the term implies. (see below)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/2qdd252-1.jpg


With no government help, and circling the drain at an ever faster pace, the only option for them to stay afloat would be selling off assets one at a time (Think Hummer and Jaguar). I could see China walking in and buying the entire U.S. auto industry piece by piece until their was nothing left. Again, correct me if my logic is wrong.


mike, I agree wit you completely. When your looking for a place to drop your hard earned money...which instills more confidence in a product? A 100,000 mile warantee, or a 3 year 36,000 mile one?

[Ron S]

I still say that the current and previous administrations should have let GM file chapter eleven early(before the bailouts). Allowing them to renegotitate they're union contracts, this would have made them a viable,competitive company again. The way it stands,they seem to have been left destine for failure, and subsidized by the taxpayer. Selling off strong subsidiaries will keep them afloat short term, but it doesn't look good long term. All we can hope is the economy turns around in a big way,and soon. Breaks my heart to see another icon of the US economy get bought up by a foreign company, or disappear all together. Ron

[madmax]

GM and the other US automakers created the middle class. They're as much a part of American history and our way of life as hotdogs and apple pie. It would have been horrible to let them die just because some CEOs at the top sat and got fat.

People are complaining about a $10B bailout when the Reserve was robbed of.. close to $1T now?

[mikedc]

We're the ones getting robbed. The Reserve is doing the robbing.



The country has been borrowing gigantic amounts of money for 30+ years now.

I agree, the most recent $10 bil into Detriot is really not that much.

[foraye]

I can see where (unlike US) China does not want a major part of their economy controlled by foreign entities. They have studied our situation, (privatized ports etc...) and put the clamps on GM!

[foraye]

IMHO there is nothing that's going to save Detriot but quality.


It's true that they've been steadily improving in the last 10-15 years but Japan has not been sitting still while they do it. Detroit has to make long-term quality their PRIMARY attribute or we're wasting our money bailing them out.


I agree...our quality has been improving, but we treat it like a "feature" in our products...don't expect quality until you purchase the premium products...eg. Chevy Tahoe, better GMC Yukon even better Cadillac Escalade. Or even in the in the same brands EX, LX, SE etc.

Our quality is tied to the dollar value of the product. The funny thing is the US consumer does not expect quality in base models, so why give it to them?

[wmhjr]

GM and the other US automakers created the middle class. They're as much a part of American history and our way of life as hotdogs and apple pie. It would have been horrible to let them die just because some CEOs at the top sat and got fat.

People are complaining about a $10B bailout when the Reserve was robbed of.. close to $1T now?

Sorry, but that's just not a correct statement IMHO. The big 3 have issues for lots of problems. Wagoner and other execs have their share of blame. However, so do Reuther, Woodcock, Gettelfinger and the other UAW leaders - along with the rest of labor. As somebody who grew up with both the UAW and the USW, I know for a fact that there is enough blame for everyone - and it wasn't just CEOs that "sat and got fat". When the first person can look me in the eye and honestly justify the "job bank" then my opinion "just might" change.

[mikedc]

I agree...our quality has been improving, but we treat it like a "feature" in our products...don't expect quality until you purchase the premium products...eg. Chevy Tahoe, better GMC Yukon even better Cadillac Escalade. Or even in the in the same brands EX, LX, SE etc.

Our quality is tied to the dollar value of the product. The funny thing is the US consumer does not expect quality in base models, so why give it to them?

Yeah, but that's why the American consumer doesn't buy very many of Detroit's base models either.


There is no more room for unreliable products in the American auto industry. Detriot can either embrace this simple reality or continue to slide farther & farther into oblivion.

[JEFFTATE]

GM seems to be selling more automobiles lately..
I just got a raise !!!

[Jim Nilsen]

My Pontiac dealer just sent me 1 yr free oil and filter change ,lube , tire rotation and 27 point inspection for 4 visits in 2010 to give me confidence that GM will be there for me in the future to meet all of the needs for my Vibe.

There must be some money out there for them to do this but where they are getting it I don't know? I better jump on it while it last.

When I went to inspect the rear drums they didn't want to come off and it sure will be worth it to just have them pull them off so I can get a look and hopefully get them back off when I do the brakes.

Hey Jeff, glad you got a raise instead of the old we aren't doing very well so they aren't giving any right now story. So what's the next step for your car ?

[JEFFTATE]

Hey Jeff, glad you got a raise instead of the old we aren't doing very well so they aren't giving any right now story. So what's the next step for your car ?

My car is on hold 'till I get my house fixed up. And my barn/shop fixed up...
Nothing major with my car 'till later..

[SRTOutlaw]

Doubtful, China doesnt play nice and i would bet it was either sell it or they would just take it. I love GM stuff, but i wish the would have just been left alone like every other business in the US would when they are having hard times. Dont worry tho, im sure our grand kids will be happy to pay for our countries interest in GM, that will no longer exist.

Here is how china plays. :bsjerk:

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/...tion-in-china/ (http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/)


THIS. And tip of the ice berg too. With the amount of money we owe china. They will end up owning a LARGE portion of the USA! We are in big F@#&ing trouble folks!

[Jim Nilsen]

THIS. And tip of the ice berg too. With the amount of money we owe china. They will end up owning a LARGE portion of the USA! We are in big F@#&ing trouble folks!

With all of the big corporations practically living there already, you have to ask yourself if China is the new word for USA?

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

this will cheer you turds up...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[EFI69Cam]

THIS. And tip of the ice berg too. With the amount of money we owe china. They will end up owning a LARGE portion of the USA! We are in big F@#&ing trouble folks!


trading Manhatten for a box of cheap crap, just like the original inhabitants

[JEFFTATE]

this will cheer you turds up...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Jessica Alba Rules !!
What movie is this ???
I gotta get it ..

[Jimmy Sean]

Jessica Alba Rules !!
What movie is this ???
I gotta get it ..

I believe it is from "Good Luck Chuck"

[JEFFTATE]

I believe it is from "Good Luck Chuck"

Thank You ...
Pleasant dreams ...

[Jim Atkins]

Best a** on the planet.

[Jim Nilsen]

The perfect end-ing to a thread and I thankyou Mr. Vengance!

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

youre welcome guys... you know i love yall.