Need Help - DSE Deep Tubs, DSE 4 Link, and Art Morrison 4 Link Questions...

[piratebaseball]

Ok guys, I'm confused and need help. I have DSE Deep tubs sitting at the house. This is for my 1967 camaro rs/ss. I am either going DSE 4 link or Art Morrison's 4 link for my rear suspension. Question is this, is their a major difference between DSE's and Morrison's 4 link? I know Morrison's comes with a 9" housing so that could compensate some of the price difference. I will be running about 600 hp out of the engine. I just want something that will handle great and will be a blast at the track as well. I know Morrison's kit comes with frame rails. Thus, I have to remove the stock frame rails..correct? Basically I'm asking if I do go with Morrison's kit, how do I install the deep tubs since I think the original frame has to be notched. Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to ask. All opinions are welcome!

[67 ls1 vert]

The only reason you notch the original frame rails is to gain more tire clearance. If you are going to remove the original rails and install aftermarkets rails, you shouldn't need to notch them as you can install them further inboard. Hope this helps.

[piratebaseball]

Do you know if you can adjust the Art Morrison frame rails so as to fit the DSE tubs without cutting or modifying? Also, is the Morrison 4 link worth an extra 1500 over the DSE? Thanks!

[67 ls1 vert]

The rails dont get in the way of the tubs at all. You notch the stock rails to clear wider tires.

The stock frame rail is trimmed to make it thinner. If you run AM frame rails, you dont have to trim them as they are bent differently and clear the tires.

It is a lot of work to replace the frame rails as you have to drill out about 100 spots welds. Maybe more?

It's easier to modify the stock frame rails rather than changing them.

Are you looking at using a tire wider than a 335? If so, you may have to move them.


Cant help you on the specs for them as I went with the g-link and tubs.

[ProdigyCustoms]

We sell both Art Morrison and DSE, and a couple other rear 4 links too. To compare apples to apples, When you add the cost of the jig welded DSE 9" housing to the Quadralink, pricing for the quadralink is about $500 less then the Art Morrison set up.

For me, if the rails are bad, the Art Morrison is a no brainer. if the rails are good, it is up to you weather you want to drill out and weld in new rails.

As 67 LS1 mentioned, the G Link is anoth option, and we have those also

You are welcome to give me a call and discuss 4 link options.

[67 ls1 vert]

Frank from Prodigy is the guy I bought my G-link and rear end from. The kit is so damn stupid easy to install you cant go wrong with it.

[JRouche]

Finally a post I can add some first hand knowledge, sorta.. I can talk about the AM 4-link for install purposes. Cant say anything about the ride performance yet and cant comment on the DSE 4-link.

Ok, here is what I have done. I have a 62 Nova. Bought it in 95 and bought a AM 4-link clip the same year.

If its the parallel 4-link you are looking at (thats what I have) you will loose the back seat. If its the four bar setup they have you can prolly keep the back seat.

The AM 4-link is a nice product. Working with them was a dream, even back then when I didnt have a clue. They can build the rear clip for what ride height you want. They have all the numbers they need for it to fit in the body. All they need from you are some other details like tire/wheel size, ride height and a couple other dimensions.

The frame rails were stout and the bends are right on. After I removed the floor and jacked the rear clip up it fit like a glove. They did their homework and measured a nova body. It was a perfect fit.

Now..... Some issues. And it wasnt AMs issues, it was mine. The numbers I gave them called for a very wide tire. So the panhard bar was a lil short for my 2008 use. And the placement of the "coilovers" was less than perfect for me. More of a pro-street type arrangement than a pro-touring set up. My bad.

I made my own tubs. It was easier for me to buy some sheet metal and fill the hole. I was making new floor panels out of 16ga steel and had plenty on hand so I did the tubs in 16ga steel also.

I opted for the stainless steel rod ends in rubber (poly). I never drove the car but replaced all the rod end for some qa1 rod ends. Got the original rod ends bagged up and will prolly list them on ebay for a penny. They are very solid, nice ends. I was just getting too much bind with them during a static test. Actually loosened the jamb nut during a static test at 5 degrees of roll. And 5* is pretty far for a roll, I was looking at the worst case.

Anyway... The AM rear clip is built for a 2500HP car. It is very well built. And the 9" housing they provided is just as nice. I got it with the large wheel bearing ends.

So I wish I had some installation pics but it was the 90s, pre-digital camera days and film processing was not cheap and I was poor, still am :) But here are a few pics for your enjoyment. I may remember most of the install though so if you have any specific questions please ask. Ill try to answer all I can. JR

Here is the rear clip.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/4linkclip1-1.jpg

In the hole I made..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/4linkclip2-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/4linkclip3-1.jpg




The tubs as sheet metal..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/04/tubs2-1.jpg

Tubs welded in and some of the trunk panels in also...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/4linkclip4-1.jpg


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/4linkclip5-1.jpg

The suspension after the AM install

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/f-3.jpg

And after I changed a couple of things..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/e-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/c-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/d-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/h-3.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/05/a-3.jpg

Here is the newest mod. Replaced the AM rod ends with these qa1 ends.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/rodends-1.jpg

[LowBuckX]

Tell him about your bolts/.

[silver69camaro]

To make sure nobody gets the wrong idea, JR's clip is intended as a custom, weld-in unit. The OP's question was relating to our rear subframe which is a direct fit...no floor modifications required.

Couple other points:
1. To install our clip, the flimsy OEM rails do need to be removed. However, you don't need to remove the spotwelds. Simly cut the U-shaped section off, and grind the remaning strips flat. Much easier and faster.

2. IMO, it doesn't matter if your rear rails are rusty or not. They're .045" thick and provide minimal strength. I'm always surprised how people here never question the integrity of them, no matter how much rust is there.

3. Our rear clip solves the problem of the issue of notching OEM rails for tire clearance. I've seen those rails notched down to 1/4" thick to run 335mm tires. I know that's the standard, but it's just not right. Our clip negates that issue and allows the stock tank to be used.

[BRIAN]

I agree with Silver as I am always amazed at guys putting down 600hp and cutting up the factory rails just to put larger tires. If that was done in the Collision Industry it would be a lawsuit.

I know DSE knows there stuff but you are cutting, grinding and welding on the factory rails. You are creating thin spots and additional strength in areas that they weren't designed for. Then add that they are 40 years old and have corrosion visible or not.

600HP is a lot of power especially when you put down that size of a footprint and sticky tires.

Just my 2 cents.

[Rybar]

To make sure nobody gets the wrong idea, JR's clip is intended as a custom, weld-in unit. The OP's question was relating to our rear subframe which is a direct fit...no floor modifications required.

Couple other points:
1. To install our clip, the flimsy OEM rails do need to be removed. However, you don't need to remove the spotwelds. Simly cut the U-shaped section off, and grind the remaning strips flat. Much easier and faster.

2. IMO, it doesn't matter if your rear rails are rusty or not. They're .045" thick and provide minimal strength. I'm always surprised how people here never question the integrity of them, no matter how much rust is there.

3. Our rear clip solves the problem of the issue of notching OEM rails for tire clearance. I've seen those rails notched down to 1/4" thick to run 335mm tires. I know that's the standard, but it's just not right. Our clip negates that issue and allows the stock tank to be used.

Matt, which setup gives the most exhaust clearance out of the options available?

And are you saying with the rear clip you can run a stock width tank, 335 tire and still have exhaust clearance?

Ryan

[silver69camaro]

Matt, which setup gives the most exhaust clearance out of the options available?

And are you saying with the rear clip you can run a stock width tank, 335 tire and still have exhaust clearance?

Ryan

I assume you are talking about our direct-fit clip? It comes in either 3-link (requires floor mods) or triangulated 4-bar (no floor mods). The tri 4-bar allows the most exhaust room, but I'll admit it's tight...some creativity may be required depending on tube size. Anyway, you can run full exhaust, 335mm tire, and a stock fuel tank. The key for our clip is to run the smallest muffler you can get.

[Rybar]

I assume you are talking about our direct-fit clip? It comes in either 3-link (requires floor mods) or triangulated 4-bar (no floor mods). The tri 4-bar allows the most exhaust room, but I'll admit it's tight...some creativity may be required depending on tube size. Anyway, you can run full exhaust, 335mm tire, and a stock fuel tank. The key for our clip is to run the smallest muffler you can get.

Yes the direct fit clip with the tri 4-bar. Do you have any photos installed showing the clearnace for exhaust and mufflers with mini-tub, 335 and stock width tank?

[Kenova]

Tell him about your bolts/.
:lmao: :poke: :lmao:

Ken

[JRouche]

Tell him about your bolts/.

Im Busting up over here. :lol:

Yup!! You got me pegged.. I do go off the deep end sometimes.

Thanks, I needed a lil chuckle today, the MIL is in town :)

OK,,, BOLTS!! I use nothing but brass. Found a very large box of them at the recycling place one day. Every size needed. And I love the nice green patina they get. SO WHAT!! LOL Bolts??? Heck, they are just fancy glue.. JR

[LowBuckX]

Glad you took that as intended...

[piratebaseball]

Thanks for the information guys...so for me the best bet is going to be to remove the stock frame rails and then install the deep tubs. Then when I have the money saved up install the art morrison rear clip. If I've screwd this sequence up anyhow please let me know. Thanks!

[LowBuckX]

The area that takes the most force is well ahead of the frame section that is narrowed. Ive seen to many cars running the DSE tubs with reworked stock frame sections to think anything else other than it is not going to be of any issue. Kyle and stacey Tucker where GM engineers and I trust their judgment well before any of us Backyard fabricators ideas and designs.

[MrQuick]

Right, You'd see more stress at that point if you are running leaf springs. Links not so much.

OP, I'd wait to get the frame before you start cutting. Might save you trouble in the long run.

Vince

[JRouche]

Glad you took that as intended...

Yupper bud. My funny bone is still intact :) Im more humor than serious anymore. JR

[JRouche]

Thanks for the information guys...so for me the best bet is going to be to remove the stock frame rails and then install the deep tubs. Then when I have the money saved up install the art morrison rear clip. If I've screwd this sequence up anyhow please let me know. Thanks!

The sequence.. Now thats the art of the entire car project that I STILL cant get correct. I screw myself far too many times by not having a firm game plan.

In the early stages it was all money driven. No money but I wanted to have a solid car. So I did a lil here and a lil there, as money came by. But the problem for me was I didnt have an overall picture in mind. Big time fault of my own.

So as my car turned into a 15 year project, funds came into play again. A lil more, not much more, but a lil more money became available. And more knowledge thanks to forums like this one. So I would replace new parts with other new parts. Only because I didnt have a firm objective of what I wanted from the car. And I didnt have any knowledge about how cars worked. This is my first project car and its been a learning project the entire way.

The only real advice I could give is have a set goal. If there isnt a goal, written down on paper then its all head dreams. And that can take you down a very long and expensive path.

Ill be honest. I think most of the aftermarket products that you hear and read about here are ALL very good products. Each one has its merits. Positives and negatives. And the negatives are not due to quality concerns. Just how they impact your over all goal. And no one can tell you the downside of a certain product unless they know your goals to the letter. And unless you know what your final goal is you wont be able to narrow down the process either.

So, again, Ill say.. Actually sit down and be honest with yourself and put your goals on paper. Realistic goals that fit within your abilities, budget and use of the car.

I think once you do that, make a realistic map of the direction you want the car to progress towards then you will have some solid answers to your questions. Cause Im sure you have done alot of research.

And Im a hypocrite.. I spout all this nonsense and dont follow it myself. But.... Sometimes you can learn from a hypocrite and not follow his path of self destruction.

One more piece before I get off my cardboard box. I see NOTHING wrong with stock cars. Leaf springs, coils springs, drum brakes, narrow tires, in line six engines, vinyl seats.. I LOVE these cars.

Stock or modified.. They are classics and I love them all. Yup, I understand this is PT, as in performance based cars. But I want to say if anyone comes here wanting to gain a certain amount of knowledge and still use most of his original car then Im all for helping the guys out.

Come one, come all, a guy just wants a better leaf spring to take care of the sagging original? Im hoping the guys will help him out. No where does it say you have to go all the way and remove all the components of a car. Something as simple as a good connection for leaf springs should be a welcome question. Id like to make EVERYONE comfortable asking any questions here. And really... Thats what I have come to notice here. Guys will help anyone that comes along..... I love it!!!! Yup.. Love this site.... JR

[Bryce]

Bolts!! HAHAHA, JR this thread will eventually go to the bolts. HAHA.

[piratebaseball]

Thanks guys. Right now my plans are Art Morrison rear clip and front clip with 4.10 gears and a viper six speed. I just can't decide between a 427bbc efi or ls7 engine now...only time will tell : )

[piratebaseball]

Right now I have the car on a crate jig. Since I have to remove the rear frame rails would it be ok to put it on a rotisserie, then remove the frame rails, inner/outer tubs, and 1/4's while its on the rotisserie? Or for structural strength replace the tubs, outers, and 1/4's before putting it on a rotisserie?

[mikey]

Thanks guys. Right now my plans are Art Morrison rear clip and front clip with 4.10 gears and a viper six speed. I just can't decide between a 427bbc efi or ls7 engine now...only time will tell : )
You might want to rethink your gear ratio. A 3.90 or 3.73 will be better. With a 4.10 you will most likely get a harmonic vibration that you can't get rid of. 1/4 mile at a time so what long hauls irritating. give George at rockland standard gear a call with any questions he will give you a straight answer whether or not you buy from them.

[mikey]

Right now I have the car on a crate jig. Since I have to remove the rear frame rails would it be ok to put it on a rotisserie, then remove the frame rails, inner/outer tubs, and 1/4's while its on the rotisserie? Or for structural strength replace the tubs, outers, and 1/4's before putting it on a rotisserie?
Do your structural sheet metal work first then do your finish work on the rotisserie. If you cut it up first you will have a problem with sagging.

[piratebaseball]

That's what I was thinking too. Thanks for the help!

[mikey]

It'll fold up like a banana or worse it'll turn into a rather expensive mess to pay somebody to straighten it out.

[BRIAN]

Also don't make the mistake of getting out of your capabilities. In order to do what you want correctly that car needs to be locked down on a frame bench or jig. Removing any panels on a rotesserie is a mistake especially with aftermarket sheetmetal as you loose most reference points. Even if you aren't cutting panels off you need a couple braces.

LS7 full AM chassis you are into a $75k build easy. Great time to be buying done cars in that range.



Good luck.