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View Full Version : Keisler's new ROAD & TRACK 6-SPEED - CLUTCHLESS UP/DOWN SHIFT



KEISLER
12-21-2009, 02:39 PM
Check this out. We debuted it at PRI last week. High torque (>1000 LB-FT), clutchless up & down shifting. This will put a smile on your face!

OI2fGeL7DEE

This will put a smile on your face! Check it out in more detail this Sunday Dec 27th 11:30AM eastern on FOX SPORTS Channel. There is a 30 min show on PRI, and I was asked to be on it. I said OK, as long as they stuck the cameraman in the passenger seat for a drive!

Bill Howell
12-21-2009, 03:03 PM
Pretty cool stuff Shafi!

How much to upgrade a T-56 or do you just buy a new tranny?

How long will this last in a street car?

Bad94
12-21-2009, 03:20 PM
>1000 LB-FT, will it hold up behind a duramax in a >3500lb car?

seriously though,

like bill asked how much??? i already have a t56 with some viper stuff. better off starting with a fresh trans?

how long between rebuilds? only clutchless usage id do is at the dragstrip

are you lifting full off the gas or just enough to slow the motor down on shifts?

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 03:38 PM
Hey Guys,

As long as it's driven properly, which means you fully engage it in gear, with or without the clutch, it should last a long long time in a street car. The alloy used has the highest chrome/nickel/moly content used for gears/shafts, and is much much stronger than the 4615 nickel/moly used by the factory (which is much stronger than the generic 8620) - nearly 80% stronger if memory serves me right.

All we need is a donor T56 - non-functioning but complete.

I drove the Dakota R/T56 from Knoxville to Orlando for PRI. Plus drove it every day to PRI, beat the crap out of it, and gave some of the guys here rides (Jimi Day, Albert Melchoir) or let them drive it (Empire Mopars John and Pat). Drove it to the grocery store there to get eats and beer. Then I drove it back home to Knoxville - about 2000 miles in total.

I'm running Mobile 1 synthetic plus an additive - darn thing shift awesome.

Once I get pricing together, I'll post it in the advertisers section.

If you guys want to drop in for a ride, just let me know.

Shafi

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 03:44 PM
>1000 LB-FT, will it hold up behind a duramax in a >3500lb car?

seriously though,

like bill asked how much??? i already have a t56 with some viper stuff. better off starting with a fresh trans?

how long between rebuilds? only clutchless usage id do is at the dragstrip

are you lifting full off the gas or just enough to slow the motor down on shifts?

Bad94,

I think it would live behind the duramax in a car - that would be killer. For a truck app, you'd need to add about 1.0 to the diff (3.90 - 4.88 for example)

You only need to lift throttle a very slight amount - just so the teeth can unlock. This happens in a split second as you can see. You can shift it even faster than I do - this was just my 2nd day driving the box and was taking it easy. :)

I'm thinking to put a spark retard box actuated by a momentary button in the ball so you could keep the pedal operation uninterrupted. What do you think?

Shafi

ProdigyCustoms
12-21-2009, 03:50 PM
I came by the booth a couple times at PRI, then had to cut it a day short for a funeral and missed Saturday.

Do you think it will shift flat footed at 1000 TQ?

Call me tomorrow.

Droolguy
12-21-2009, 03:55 PM
My questions...

1. How much does it cost?

2. How stiff are the clutchless shifts? (Am I going to need to really pound it in, or is smooth and quick sufficient)

3. How does it compare with the other super-high capacity trannies? (Tranzilla, Jericho... exct)

4. Can you... EDIT: Never mind, you already answered this question.

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 05:04 PM
Do you think it will shift flat footed at 1000 TQ?
Hey Frank - sorry I missed you and would like to have demo'd the tranny for you. The engine will have to be momentarily decel - just for a split second - so you can shift. The decel does not have to be much, so your vehicle acceleration curve will have a slight plateau until you've engaged the next gear and engine rpm is increasing again. So you could go from 100% TP to say 98% -> shift -> back onto 100% TP

I might be back to Orlando next month with the truck. I'll call you tomorrow. - Shafi

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 05:10 PM
My questions...

1. How much does it cost?

2. How stiff are the clutchless shifts? (Am I going to need to really pound it in, or is smooth and quick sufficient)

3. How does it compare with the other super-high capacity trannies? (Tranzilla, Jericho... exct)

4. Can you... EDIT: Never mind, you already answered this question.

Hi Droolguy -

I'll have pricing announced shortly.

Shifts are EASY, smooth and QUICK; In fact, I had a gal working our booth that weighs just 105lbs. She demo'd the tranny for a couple of editors - they couldn't believe their eyes. She's so small she has to put the seat all the way forward, the steering column down. She had never driven this type before and looked like a pro with 10 min of seat time.

I don't have experience with any of those transmissions, so I can't comment. In seeking the ultimate Road&Track transmission, it had to be totally streetable. Shift quality, effort, noise, packaging. I think we have nailed it. Especially 6th gear is really quiet - you won't hear it with *most* muscle car exhausts.

Shafi

68sixspeed
12-21-2009, 05:15 PM
Can this do road course type downshifting without matching the rpm? (i.e. grab a gear lower when it's still up at 4000rpm.)

Can this setup be applied to the corvette t56's?

-Dan

hotrdblder
12-21-2009, 05:23 PM
sounds killer.
not new by any means, liberty has been doing these to t-56's for a few years, maybe this is more affordable.?
btw, if using this on track or anywhere, LEARN HOW TO HEAL AND TOE DOWNSHIFT, PERIOD" that lock up downshifting can put you out of control in short order if driving aggressive. ie, on brakes hard coming into turn,and needing to downshift as well, the weight transfer from all this will make tail light and easy to spin.

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 05:51 PM
Can this do road course type downshifting without matching the rpm? (i.e. grab a gear lower when it's still up at 4000rpm.)

Can this setup be applied to the corvette t56's?

-Dan
Hi 68sixspeed,

Yes, you can shift without speed matching. The speed gears are always spinning with the cluster gears, just like in the sychromesh version. The main difference is that you are quickly speed matching the speed gear with the mainshaft that is coupled to the driveshaft and diff, thus always turning while moving.

And yes, we can do Corvette, Camaro, TransAm, GTO, Mustang, Viper and Challenger, plus the other variants of T56 like Aston Martin, etc.

Shafi

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 06:05 PM
sounds killer.
not new by any means, liberty has been doing these to t-56's for a few years, maybe this is more affordable.?
btw, if using this on track or anywhere, LEARN HOW TO HEAL AND TOE DOWNSHIFT, PERIOD" that lock up downshifting can put you out of control in short order if driving aggressive.

Hi Jake - I've heard that some companies are modifying the factory gears with face engagement rings by tack welding. I don't know that pricing, but I don't believe it can make a reliable gear because:

1. the factory T56 clutch gears are forged on as 1 piece with the gear blank; cutting and welding on an already heat treated part is not good - deformation, stress risers, etc will shorten life of the joint. It is tough to re-heatreat a part with reliable results.

2. the high helix angle gears are meant for street but not race; the tooth can be chipped off when placed under a lot of shock loading and continuous high load. The gears seen on our video are of a low helix angle, which makes them very strong, yet still acceptible for the street, especially in 4th and 6th (quietest 2 gears).

And YES, the driver technique is important so you don't have abrupt changes in wheel speed which can cause you to loose control - especially in a corner on a track. I had very little practice time with the transmission before making the video, so a good driver like yourself will be able to do better. The SAFE bet for anyone new to the transmission is to simply use the clutch on the up/downshifts until you become confident to run it clutchless.

All good questions and comments, folks. Thanks for checking it out.

Shafi

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 06:12 PM
I forgot to mention something important that Jake asked me about (thanks Jake). The 5th and 6th gear ratios are closer:

0.88 5th (versus .74 stock)

0.77 6th (versus .5 stock for most, .63 in some)

These gears will keep you in the power band on straight-aways and you'll pull much stronger. Sounds like a Viagra commercial, but it's a fact.

67 ls1 vert
12-21-2009, 06:17 PM
Seems like if this was used on a road course, if you let off to down shift and the rear tires were to skid to match engine and road speeds you would lose traction and cause the rear to slide in the corner loosing traction in the corner would make for slower track times.

I guess if you got really good with the timing this wouldn't happen. I drive a big rig with an 18 spd and its all about matching speed and road speed to get it to shift.

I might have missed it but can you still drive it with the clutch as you would a synchro trans or would you have to match the road and RPM to get it to work?

edit: Looks like you answered some of the questions you posted right before I posted. Sorry

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 06:22 PM
... I might have missed it but can you still drive it with the clutch as you would a synchro trans or would you have to match the road and RPM to get it to work?

Hi 67 ls1 vert - you can use the clutch ANY time or ALL of the time. That's the nice part about it. When you use the clutch, it's smooth as normal.

67 ls1 vert
12-21-2009, 06:36 PM
Thanks Shafi, good to know.

I got one more question since you are online talking about it.
I just bought your Magnum kit for my car and it has never been used. In fact you still have my drive shaft. What do you think about exchanging it? I dont know what your pricing is going to be set at but just a thought?

KEISLER
12-21-2009, 06:53 PM
Thanks Shafi, good to know.

I got one more question since you are online talking about it.
I just bought your Magnum kit for my car and it has never been used. In fact you still have my drive shaft. What do you think about exchanging it? I dont know what your pricing is going to be set at but just a thought?
Thanks for purchasing the Magnum kit. I'm certain we can work something out to take this back on trade or find a new home for it in your area, possibly at one of our distributors in Huntington Beach or Sacremento, etc.

67 ls1 vert
12-21-2009, 06:56 PM
If you wouldn't mind, when you finalize the details let me know by emailing me if you dont mind.

Thanks.

Lowend
12-21-2009, 06:59 PM
It's about time someone did this...

Neil B
12-21-2009, 08:37 PM
Even with Jerico-equipped road race cars, you still heel/toe using the clutch on downshifts. Am I missing something? Seems like clutchless downshifting would upset the balance of the car.

Droolguy
12-21-2009, 08:47 PM
Thats why I was asking, it says clutchless up AND down shifts.

Jericho won't downshift without heeltoeing like you said, I was hoping for a comparison between the three transmissions, not stating that they were the same. They all just have similar ratings.

As for the balance being thrown off, yes. Unless it does what the new 370z does, I doubt it though.

tazzz25906112
12-21-2009, 10:17 PM
I can tell you that Shafi and I went of r a blast in the Dakota and the transmission is everything he is saying and more!!!!!

This is a incredible transmission and I'm looking forward to running it threw the paces this summer in project "WarPath" at various planned motocross and road course events... We'll be thrashing the car with an estimated 700hp injected stroker Poncho motor that will make gobs of torque.

Congratulations again Shafi,,,,, I think this transmission is going to be a big hit in the pro-touring community.

RSX302
12-21-2009, 10:47 PM
I've driven a dog gearbox on the track and heal and toe is way too fun. Everything happens at an instant and never an issue. It's nice to put your foot on the dead pedal and leave it there. Although this was with a Hewland Box and up and down shifting wasn't an issue.

I currently have the G-Force T56 with the triple cone syncs and it works very well on the street and the track, but it's no dog box.

One reason I didn't go with the dog ring box originally was due to wear issues on the dog rings themselves. I'm intrested in hearing how your dog rings wear and the cost of the rebuild.

Thx

Chad-1stGen
12-21-2009, 11:51 PM
If you are driving hard and threshold braking you have to toe heel shift a manual car. Doesn't matter if you are using a clutch or not. The video shows downshifting without toe heel which would mess you up quick on the track. Toe heel is all about the right foot, not the left so...

Droolguy
12-22-2009, 04:20 AM
So I finally watched the video, I couldn't do it before because I was at work.

I just realized that this tranny would make heeltoeing much simpler, because it allows for left foot breaking. No need to operate the clutch on a downshift because you can pull it out of gear, blip the throttle, and put it in gear in one smooth motion.

Normally its...
1. Place heel of right foot on break with toe on leading edge of throttle.
2. Put left foot on the clutch.
3. Brake.
4. Clutch.
5. Disengage gear.
6. Actuate the throttle with toe of right foot, while maintaining constant pressure with the heel of the foot on brake pedal.
7. Put car in gear.
8. Release clutch.

With this its...
1. Put left foot on brake pedal.
2. Apply brakes.
3. Disengage gear.
4. Blip throttle.
5. Put in gear.

No more :enguard:with your car.

parsonsj
12-22-2009, 07:00 AM
I'm very intrigued by this technology!

But for road course downshifting, with threshold braking, the main modulating action is letting the clutch out slowly. That's the thing that keeps from upsetting the car, especially in a long sweeper after a straightaway (I'm thinking about turns 10 and 1 at Spring Mountain, for example). I think you can use this for most upshifts (when the car is going straight), but not for downshifts. But still... for a dual use/triple use car, this brings a *lot* of benefit.

jp

silver69camaro
12-22-2009, 07:49 AM
I agree about the downshifts, but it makes me wonder about the cars with sequential transmissions. They downshift in pretty much the same manner, but weight transfer is typically much, much lower in cars that are equipped with that.

hotrdblder
12-22-2009, 08:44 AM
I'm very intrigued by this technology!

But for road course downshifting, with threshold braking, the main modulating action is letting the clutch out slowly. That's the thing that keeps from upsetting the car, especially in a long sweeper after a straightaway (I'm thinking about turns 10 and 1 at Spring Mountain, for example). I think you can use this for most upshifts (when the car is going straight), but not for downshifts. But still... for a dual use/triple use car, this brings a *lot* of benefit.

jp
thus the purpose of rev matching, you will need to get good at it, however even if your some rpm above the perfect match, the car will stay in steady state even if lurching forward, where as if it incurs engine braking because revs were not matched, then the tail will get light. At 9/10ths this means spin out or damn near it.
as matt says most race cars are tuned for 1.0 degree body roll, whether in acceleration/braking/cornering, thus it can take abrupt changes to the chassis better. however with that said, watch a nascar race at a road course and watch boris saids foot work. he is a heel and toe legend.

Steve N 69 69 69
12-22-2009, 08:50 AM
Looks like fun for upshifts. How long do you think those Dakota U-joints are gonna' put up with that downshifting action?

Droolguy
12-22-2009, 08:51 AM
A lot of people run push button air-shifters (and an electric timing retard) on dog ring trans...

For all intensive purposes at that point they are sequential transmissions. Just push a button.

You can get smooth shifts out of almost any trans by hand though with practice.

David Pozzi
12-22-2009, 09:20 AM
there are many road racers who don't use the clutch for up or down shifting on a dog ring type trans. That's how I shift the Lola. While you can get away with doing a lot of things with them, the proper way to shift up or down is to lift when upshifting, and match revs when downshifting using a blip of the gas as you pass through neutral. Trans life will go up by a factor of 10 if you do so. Upshifts just require a lift of the throttle, the dogs are typically back cut to keep them engaged while power is on or off, when power load is neutral, it will engage or disengage smoothly and quickly. You should always shift like you mean it, no lazy shifts or it will grind. It won't grind a LOT, but just like regular syncros, a little grind here or there adds up to wear. The dog teeth can get dull from mishandling and then it get's easier and easier to miss shifts just like a syncro trans.

This system has more play between the engagement teeth to allow room for spinning dog teeth to engage. It will have a little more lash than a syncro trans.

Here's a nice shifting writeup by Hewland. http://www.hewland.com/svga/help.htm Here's a video on "dog boxes" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fA94Sxiu4c

KEISLER
12-22-2009, 01:03 PM
Looks like fun for upshifts. How long do you think those Dakota U-joints are gonna' put up with that downshifting action?
Good question! If I break it, I'll fix it. We run NEAPCO HD Alumnacoat - zerkless, sealed - but one can f-up an anvil and those shifts are not easy but since I'm using 400 treadwear tires, they give a little. And the clutch torsion spring hub will give a little, as will the clutch disc. When using the rev matching it is very smooth on the downshifting. I should have done that in hindsight, but I was totally green with the tranny. Once I drove it down to Orlando and exhibited it a bit, I got the hang of it.

Driving this thing is so damn fun, I can't get over it. And watching others drive it for the first time is a hoot. Like Albert said, we had a blast running the streets at night. Jimi Day, who stayed at our rental house, said something like "who the hell is that driving around outside!" then he looked out the window and saw me and Albert blasting by.

I'll plan to make a new video in the next week or so, showing the rev matching.

KEISLER
12-22-2009, 01:06 PM
...Upshifts just require a lift of the throttle, the dogs are typically back cut to keep them engaged while power is on or off, when power load is neutral, it will engage or disengage smoothly and quickly. You should always shift like you mean it, no lazy shifts or it will grind. It won't grind a LOT, but just like regular syncros, a little grind here or there adds up to wear. The dog teeth can get dull from mishandling and then it get's easier and easier to miss shifts just like a syncro trans.

This system has more play between the engagement teeth to allow room for spinning dog teeth to engage. It will have a little more lash than a syncro trans.

Spot on, David, on all accounts!

Morgan
12-22-2009, 03:20 PM
I want one. Keep us posted so that I can pull my T56 and send it your way.

KEISLER
12-22-2009, 03:30 PM
Hi Folks,

I'll have news on pricing tomorrow, and post something in the advertisers section with a link from here. And I'll PM each of you that expressed interest.

We'll also make a new video with heel/toe shortly. Thanks for your interest and I'm glad you can see the value in this for your projects.

Shafi

tyoneal
12-22-2009, 05:51 PM
Bad94,

I think it would live behind the duramax in a car - that would be killer. For a truck app, you'd need to add about 1.0 to the diff (3.90 - 4.88 for example)

You only need to lift throttle a very slight amount - just so the teeth can unlock. This happens in a split second as you can see. You can shift it even faster than I do - this was just my 2nd day driving the box and was taking it easy. :)

I'm thinking to put a spark retard box actuated by a momentary button in the ball so you could keep the pedal operation uninterrupted. What do you think?

Shafi
===========================
Shafi:

This transmission is great, and your idea is even better.

You said:

"I'm thinking to put a spark retard box actuated by a momentary button in the ball so you could keep the pedal operation uninterrupted. What do you think?"

You Asked our thoughts?

"I think this would be a Birds Nest on the Ground for your Business."

Imagine utilizing your idea this way.:idea:

Paddle Shifters! The Spark Retard allows the Driver to keep their FOOT DOWN while UP shifting.

Just like a F1 Steering Wheel, Smaller Paddles, just Above or Below the Main Paddles, would operate the clutch when your stopping or starting. (See Picture)

This would give the driver total control over their cars WITHOUT removing their hands from the Steering Wheel.

What a Kick Ass application that would make! Once you get this down you could improve it eventually by programing a Throttle, "Blip", when down shifting. :drool:

I can't imagine ANYONE who really enjoyed their cars not wanting one of these. This line could keep your company, and us, as permanent customers forever.

Shafi/KEISLER = :1st:

Just Say Yes!

Thoughts Everyone?

Ty O'Neal

Nine Ball
12-22-2009, 06:12 PM
Very cool T56 modification Shafi, looking forward to pricing.

Tony

tyoneal
12-22-2009, 06:16 PM
thus the purpose of rev matching, you will need to get good at it, however even if your some rpm above the perfect match, the car will stay in steady state even if lurching forward, where as if it incurs engine braking because revs were not matched, then the tail will get light. At 9/10ths this means spin out or damn near it.
as matt says most race cars are tuned for 1.0 degree body roll, whether in acceleration/braking/cornering, thus it can take abrupt changes to the chassis better. however with that said, watch a nascar race at a road course and watch boris saids foot work. he is a heel and toe legend.
============================
Jake:

Wouldn't some tuning of the differential when entering a corner, help keep the car stable when down shifting?

Or in other words have the differential come out of a, "Locked", position to an "Open", position once the throttle is lifted?

Ty

tyoneal
12-22-2009, 06:39 PM
To All:

After reading some of the comments, about not upsetting the car when entering a corner, this YouTube Video, looks like the way it would need to be used so the transition to lower gears could remain smooth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asFwDpLe1xo&feature=related

Would this be correct?

Ty

hotrdblder
12-22-2009, 08:45 PM
not mormally ty. he was using clutch to make downshifting smooth, you still get engine braking doing this, like was said earlier in race cars, body roll etc is limited to 1.0 degree, thus not upsetting the car.
most pro touring cars have 4-5 degrees or more of body roll when driven at 9 tenths on the track.
there are two methods
alms- some use the method like shafi, but its hard on components, watch a true road race driver like boris said,joey hand etc you do not need to downshift that fast, you can slow down faster using brakes then engine braking. so the key is to drive as deep as possible as hard as possible, brake super super hard,heel/toe into gear needed gear, turn in, once set back into throttle.
there are always more ways then one to skin a cat, but the way I mentioned is what ALL driving/comp schools want to see you use before getting competition license etc.

hotrdblder
12-22-2009, 08:48 PM
============================
Jake:

Wouldn't some tuning of the differential when entering a corner, help keep the car stable when down shifting?

Or in other words have the differential come out of a, "Locked", position to an "Open", position once the throttle is lifted?

Ty
I am more so talking about weight transfer in a pro touring set up car, not a track only car, when braking hard you can have as much as 20-30% weight transfer from one end of the car to the other, match that with turning in and things can get out of hand quick.

KEISLER
12-23-2009, 12:20 PM
....You Asked our thoughts?

"I think this would be a Birds Nest on the Ground for your Business."

Imagine utilizing your idea this way.:idea:

Paddle Shifters! The Spark Retard allows the Driver to keep their FOOT DOWN while UP shifting.

Just like a F1 Steering Wheel, Smaller Paddles, just Above or Below the Main Paddles, would operate the clutch when your stopping or starting. (See Picture)

This would give the driver total control over their cars WITHOUT removing their hands from the Steering Wheel.

What a Kick Ass application that would make! Once you get this down you could improve it eventually by programing a Throttle, "Blip", when down shifting. :drool:

I can't imagine ANYONE who really enjoyed their cars not wanting one of these. This line could keep your company, and us, as permanent customers forever.

Shafi/KEISLER = :1st:

Just Say Yes!

Thoughts Everyone?

Ty O'Neal

Ty O'Neal - You are da man!! I like this creative thinking!! Your idea has me drooling.... I actually started assembling some other parts to indeed automate the system in an innovative way. This includes use of our existing paddle shifter product. The throttle blip should be no problem. There are likely existing products in the import tuner market that can lend themselves to this as well, so I need to do some homework.

Today I drove the Dak for a while to practice a bit for the new video. It shifts so beautifully with the throttle blip - smooth, no drivetrain shock, etc.

Thanks to you and everyone here asking questions, putting ideas and requests for more info here. I plan to have a post up shortly on the commercial side of the Road & Track 6-speed.

Shafi

Bad94
12-23-2009, 02:37 PM
I wish i would have knew about this before RTTH's, I would have been game to pull my t56 out of the truck on thursday and drop it off and put on it back in on friday and test it out on the dragon.


Back to the tranny, so for you to do this all i need is a good case? Or a tranny that still works with out any problems?

TheKingOTW
12-23-2009, 03:57 PM
I forgot to mention something important that Jake asked me about (thanks Jake). The 5th and 6th gear ratios are closer:

0.88 5th (versus .74 stock)

0.77 6th (versus .5 stock for most, .63 in some)

These gears will keep you in the power band on straight-aways and you'll pull much stronger. Sounds like a Viagra commercial, but it's a fact.

Shafi - Are you going to offer different 6th gear options? Currently I have a 0.62 and I was curious what other options are available besides the 0.77 you posted above, if any. It would be great if you had lower 6th gear options.

Thanks and please let me know.

Andy

TheKingOTW
12-23-2009, 04:13 PM
Ty O'Neal - You are da man!! I like this creative thinking!! Your idea has me drooling.... I actually started assembling some other parts to indeed automate the system in an innovative way. This includes use of our existing paddle shifter product. The throttle blip should be no problem. There are likely existing products in the import tuner market that can lend themselves to this as well, so I need to do some homework.

Today I drove the Dak for a while to practice a bit for the new video. It shifts so beautifully with the throttle blip - smooth, no drivetrain shock, etc.

Thanks to you and everyone here asking questions, putting ideas and requests for more info here. I plan to have a post up shortly on the commercial side of the Road & Track 6-speed.

Shafi

What about just using 2 micro switches, like to turn on nitrous at full throttle, one on each side of the shifter so when the transmission is in gear, it works normally but the second it goes into neutral, for an up or down shift, the release of the micro switch activates a retard or something else that will momentarily take the load off of the engine, for just a split second, during the shift?

Doing it this way would make it hands off. No paddle shifter activation, nothing you actually have to think about or do. Just by going into neutral for that split second between shifts does it.

Seems much more of a complete package doing it this way.

Droolguy
12-23-2009, 04:56 PM
...but the second it goes into neutral, for an up or down shift, the release of the micro switch activates a retard or something else that will momentarily take the load off of the engine, for just a split second, during the shift?...


Race vehicles use this quite often...

I would think that on a daily driven car it could be detrimental though, since while shifting lazily the car would effectively run super rich. Which would wear out the piston rings, create excessive carbon buildup, and fubar your o2 sensors (if you have them).

Someone can correct me if I am wrong here, I have only been building cars for a few years now and so are still fairly new compared to a lot of you.

67 ls1 vert
12-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Hi Folks,

I'll have news on pricing tomorrow, and post something in the advertisers section with a link from here. And I'll PM each of you that expressed interest.

We'll also make a new video with heel/toe shortly. Thanks for your interest and I'm glad you can see the value in this for your projects.

Shafi


Today is tomorrow. Do you have any prices ready for us? :)

TheKingOTW
12-23-2009, 05:25 PM
Race vehicles use this quite often...

I would think that on a daily driven car it could be detrimental though, since while shifting lazily the car would effectively run super rich. Which would wear out the piston rings, create excessive carbon buildup, and fubar your o2 sensors (if you have them).

Someone can correct me if I am wrong here, I have only been building cars for a few years now and so are still fairly new compared to a lot of you.


I don't follow your thinking or understand how you came up with these scenarios. They make no sense. What does taking the load off of the engine for less than 1 second, during a shift, by retarding the timing or some other way, have to do with running rich or piston rings wearing poorly? Excess carbon buildup??? You totally lost me on this one.

I do not understand your comments at all. Care to elaborate on how you came up with these scenarios?

Kenova
12-23-2009, 05:52 PM
I would think that on a daily driven car it could be detrimental though, since while shifting lazily the car would effectively run super rich.

He is pointing out that during most street driving the shifts can take considerably more time. Not everyone will shift like a madman every time.
I would think an timed ignition interruption would be the best option.

Ken

KEISLER
12-23-2009, 06:11 PM
Hey Folks,

OK, I just posted a thread in the Advertisers section here (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?p=613308#post613308) It has pricing, info, ratios and all of the goodies. Please read it in detail. And there is a big special promotion pricing I am giving all of you for a limited time. I know the product is not exactly cheap, but you get what you get,... quality.

And for all you loyal customers that already have a Keisler transmission product already, I will extend an additional discount to you as my way of saying THANK YOU.

As for RATIOS, we can do a road race 5th with tall 6th. How's
0.88 5th and .65 6th? I don't mind to do it at no extra charge but it will take an extra 4 weeks for me to get them made.

And I apologize for the video which doesn't have the preferred rev-matching downshifts - a new one is in the works now showing how smooth, and quiet, the downshifting is when you just blip the throttle.

Please take a trip over and visit me here in Knoxville, and I'll put you in the driver seat for a spin thru the Hills.

More to come, and thanks again so much for the good discussion!

Merry Christmas!

Shafi

Droolguy
12-23-2009, 06:13 PM
Ignition inturrupts/retards cut the spark out completely for a couple revolutions on I thought, so instead of firing 12345678 they fire almost at random like 1_34___8 (Once again, I think... never used one before).

An engine will still put the same amount of fuel in the cylinder, regardless.

More fuel per detonation = running rich.

Running excessively rich causes carbon build-up because you just can't burn it all at once (not enough air) causing incomplete detonation. Which also fouls o2 sensors.

As for the piston rings, I was always told that you'll eat them up running excessively rich. Something about the way they are lubricated and a lot of fuel washing them out.

A simple fix would be a fuel cutoff instead of spark.

EDIT:

I realize I missed something...

If your spark retard shifts the timing to when the exhaust valve is open it still has the same effects.

Fuel is sprayed into cylinder as piston goes down, piston goes up and compresses air/fuel, does not spark yet, fuel partially condenses on cylinder walls/piston/valves, cylinder goes down and fuel continues to condense, cylinder goes up/exhaust valve opens letting some of the unburnt fuel escape just before ignition.

The condensed fuel does not burn as readily as the particle vapor, causing incomplete detonation again and carbon buildup. The piston rings wouldn't be effected as much in this situation. Your o2 sensors would still be fubar'd though.

KEISLER
12-23-2009, 06:21 PM
What about just using 2 micro switches, like to turn on nitrous at full throttle, one on each side of the shifter so when the transmission is in gear, it works normally but the second it goes into neutral, for an up or down shift, the release of the micro switch activates a retard or something else that will momentarily take the load off of the engine, for just a split second, during the shift?
That's easy enough to try. But the engine decel has to happen before you pull the stick out of gear. The heel-toe thing is not that hard to learn. I did it today for the first time riding around the backroads for a while. Just takes practice. Sort of awkward but what the heck - the benefits are way cool.

I think we should look around the tuner market to see what they are using.

KEISLER
12-23-2009, 06:39 PM
I wish i would have knew about this before RTTH's, I would have been game to pull my t56 out of the truck on thursday and drop it off and put on it back in on friday and test it out on the dragon. Back to the tranny, so for you to do this all i need is a good case? Or a tranny that still works with out any problems?
Bad94 - no worries! we debuted it at PRI so you haven't missed anything. Just run down here and we'll do it at our shop if you want. All we need is a rebuildable core - not a tip top unit, but look for signs of crash damage like busted case, input shaft tip broke off, lots of oil, charcol black, etc. We can supply a core as well.

Droolguy
12-23-2009, 06:56 PM
What about a fuel/ignition cut on a button?

Put the button on top of the selector so that when someone "palms it" he pushes the button turning the cut/retard/whatever on.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

In normal street driving just don't push it.

Extremely simple and cheap solution.

KEISLER
12-23-2009, 06:58 PM
What about a fuel/ignition cut on a button?
Put the button on top of the selector so that when someone "palms it" he pushes the button turning the cut/retard/whatever on.
In normal street driving just don't push it.
Extremely simple and cheap solution.
Yes, this is exactly what I was referring to about the momentary switch in the knob. nice pic!

Droolguy
12-23-2009, 07:10 PM
Cool, were on the same page.

It would be the most cost effective and simple way to get a *very* desireable feature in a dog box.

All IMHO ofcourse.

TheKingOTW
12-24-2009, 07:53 AM
Cool, were on the same page.

It would be the most cost effective and simple way to get a *very* desireable feature in a dog box.

All IMHO ofcourse.

Now I am lost. Wasn't it you saying a few posts above how doing this would cause all sorts of problems like damaging rings, ECG's, running rich, blah blah blah?

Now your coming up with solutions on how to make this occur?

Droolguy
12-24-2009, 09:08 AM
When driven normally in a street car it would be detrimental.

The button would allow you to ONLY use it when driving hard... thus removing the excessive wear it would cause if you used it every single time the car shifted.


In normal street driving just don't push it.

Hocky
12-26-2009, 03:53 PM
On motorcycles this is done with a pressure sensor on the shift rod.
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/QuickShifter/powercommander_quick_shifter.aspx

I have not looked into this much but there are maybe similar sensors available to put on the shifter axle inside the transmission somewhere?

Triggering a low rev limiter would do it perhaps. I have done this on an attemt to shift a M20 with WOT, just pressing clutch, witch activated a 2step.
It worked but I did go Dogh Nash instead when turning 1st gear into dust :)

MSD has some 2 step module for LS engines but there not much info about that part yet.
http://msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=14285&terms=8733

Scott Parkhurst
12-26-2009, 07:13 PM
Crazy Cool!!

I'm gonna let this mature for awhile, since my T56 is still fresh...

tyoneal
12-27-2009, 04:48 AM
Ty O'Neal - You are da man!! I like this creative thinking!! Your idea has me drooling.... I actually started assembling some other parts to indeed automate the system in an innovative way. This includes use of our existing paddle shifter product. The throttle blip should be no problem. There are likely existing products in the import tuner market that can lend themselves to this as well, so I need to do some homework.

Today I drove the Dak for a while to practice a bit for the new video. It shifts so beautifully with the throttle blip - smooth, no drivetrain shock, etc.

Thanks to you and everyone here asking questions, putting ideas and requests for more info here. I plan to have a post up shortly on the commercial side of the Road & Track 6-speed.

Shafi
===========================
Shafi:

Thank you for the kind email. I'm looking forward to any new videos you come up with as well as any new, "Tweaks", you come up with.

I appreciate you coming up with these new products. I'm in a mode now to try and get one of these boxes in the new upgrades for my car.

Please keep us posted.

Regards,

Ty O'Neal

tyoneal
12-27-2009, 10:34 AM
Check this out. We debuted it at PRI last week. High torque (>1000 LB-FT), clutchless up & down shifting. This will put a smile on your face!

OI2fGeL7DEE

This will put a smile on your face! Check it out in more detail this Sunday Dec 27th 11:30AM eastern on FOX SPORTS Channel. There is a 30 min show on PRI, and I was asked to be on it. I said OK, as long as they stuck the cameraman in the passenger seat for a drive!
===========================
Shafi:

I unfortunately missed the show with you on it. Is there anyway you can post your segment up on YouTube?

Another question:

Is it required that you must up shift, or down shift in sequence, or like a regular 6- Speed sometimes, if necessary, you can skip a gear?

If it can be done, does it then require the use of the clutch?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

KEISLER
12-27-2009, 02:26 PM
eoNIjDh3rYo

Here's the clip from this morning. They got a nice shot of the Kuda in the opening credits, so I left that in.

KEISLER
12-27-2009, 02:32 PM
Another question:

Is it required that you must up shift, or down shift in sequence, or like a regular 6- Speed sometimes, if necessary, you can skip a gear?

If it can be done, does it then require the use of the clutch?

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

Hey Ty,
Yes, you can shift though any gate. For example, you can do a 6->4 downshift, or 2->4 upshift - what ever you want. You do not have to use the clutch for these shifts. But you will want to raise the engine rpms before downshifting for a really smooth transition.

Shafi

JMarsa
12-27-2009, 04:27 PM
What about a fuel/ignition cut on a button?

Put the button on top of the selector so that when someone "palms it" he pushes the button turning the cut/retard/whatever on.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

In normal street driving just don't push it.

Extremely simple and cheap solution.

Boat engines have a module called a "shift interrupt" that cuts the ignition momentarily when shifting from nuetral to forward or reverse on inboard/outboard (i/o) drives. IIRC stern drives have straight cut gears. I'm sure a Mercruiser part is widely available. Here's a reference:

http://support.crowleymarine.com/article/17323956/

and what the part looks like.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13845

--JMarsa

Taman
12-27-2009, 07:16 PM
I would love to put one of these in my 75 TA with a 455. Does Kielser have kits for Pontiac engine cars?

KEISLER
12-27-2009, 07:29 PM
I would love to put one of these in my 75 TA with a 455. Does Kielser have kits for Pontiac engine cars?

Indeed! That's the cool thing - we can package it up in a kit for any Chevy-BOP-Ford-Mopar-AMC.

Taman
12-27-2009, 07:38 PM
Looking forward to finding out some price for an auto to manual conversion. This will be my next mod. Nothing like banging gears.

MonzaRacer
12-27-2009, 07:41 PM
Yeah if you simply use an ignition cut your only talking milliseconds and most FI setups will run open loop under hard acceleration and I doubt if you simply cut ignition (ie coil firing ) rather than all signals into computer you would be fine I believe as any over fuel wouldnt cause any issues under heavy load.

KEISLER
12-28-2009, 04:17 PM
Boat engines have a module called a "shift interrupt" that cuts the ignition momentarily when shifting from nuetral to forward or reverse on inboard/outboard (i/o) drives. IIRC stern drives have straight cut gears. I'm sure a Mercruiser part is widely available. Here's a reference:

http://support.crowleymarine.com/article/17323956/

and what the part looks like.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=13845

--JMarsa

JMarsa,

I spoke with MSD today, and they also recommended looking at the marine method you mentioned, which is ignition interruption.
Thanks for the lead on this and I'll continue to study it.

And thanks to all of you for participating with the good info. The shifter module is also another interesting piece.

JMarsa
12-28-2009, 08:04 PM
I would think that there's both carb and EFI versions. Normally a direction (gear) change for a boat occurs anywhere between idle speed and say around 1200 RPM. How this set-up would work at high RPMs would need to be tested. Worse case, about $15 in Radio Shack parts could build a programmable timer/switch. I'm guessing you were looking at MSD for delay boxes which would be similar.

--JMarsa

alnoe
12-30-2009, 04:45 PM
Shafi

Good talking with you today. Very cool and inventive new idea.

If you want one flogged relentlessly in a '67 Camaro, I may know where one is available:doh:

Have a great New Year!

Al

Roadrage David
12-31-2009, 01:18 AM
Indeed! That's the cool thing - we can package it up in a kit for any Chevy-BOP-Ford-Mopar-AMC.
I am seriusly considering to buy one in the near future for my 69 GTO road racer, how mutch torque can it handle??, and thuse it needs extra oil cooling at very high speeds secu roadraceing..

David Pozzi
12-31-2009, 09:47 AM
Road race Motorcycles use an engine cut switch on the shifter linkage. A motorcycle uses the same "Dog" engagement.
Here's a fancy system for motorcycle use: http://www.cordona.net/racing_shifter.htm I'm not sure how the downshift blip might work out.
David

KEISLER
01-01-2010, 03:23 PM
I am seriusly considering to buy one in the near future for my 69 GTO road racer, how mutch torque can it handle??, and thuse it needs extra oil cooling at very high speeds secu roadraceing..

Roadrage David - Among other race cars, it has been run successfully in a full on race car for more than 3 years now. A GTR all-wheel drive LS powered making 1000+ LB-FT torque.

For the auxillary cooler, we can put this system together without any issue. It will use the same highflow aluminum oil cooler that we use with our Stage 2 and Stage 3 automatic kits. The pump won't be integral to the front pump like on a Vette, but instead a recirc system using the fill and drain ports. I don't know the cost, but it won't be much. We could also equip it with a temp sender so you can hook up a gauge or input to your EFI system for monitoring.

Shafi

KEISLER
01-01-2010, 03:34 PM
Road race Motorcycles use an engine cut switch on the shifter linkage. A motorcycle uses the same "Dog" engagement.
Here's a fancy system for motorcycle use: http://www.cordona.net/racing_shifter.htm I'm not sure how the downshift blip might work out.
David

I spoke with Mallory, Accel, MSD and the marine folks. I have a plan now and equipment ordered to put a rev limiter in place controlled by the shifter handle momentary switch to detorque the engine momentarily while still keeping the engine firing. The interuption of these devices places the interrupt on a round robin sequence across the cylinders to keep the fuel burning so there's not a bunch of fuel popping in the exhaust.

The throttle blip will be manual by foot for now, although I do have equipment selected for that also, I don't plan to use it a first. Since the manual throttle blip is such a quick event to make happen, I think the only feature we really need is the ability to detorque the engine to disengage the shift lever under an engine compression braking scenario (going downhill for example, where if you put your foot on the brake, it still won't unlock the clutch teeth).

What do you think?

KEISLER
01-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Shafi

Good talking with you today. Very cool and inventive new idea.

If you want one flogged relentlessly in a '67 Camaro, I may know where one is available:doh:

Have a great New Year!

Al

Hi Al,

I hope there are a bunch of us out there flogging the Road & Track 6-speeds this year.

I am working on the TKO and some other models as well to round out the offerings.

Shafi

elacruze
01-02-2010, 12:57 AM
Bad94,

I'm thinking to put a spark retard box actuated by a momentary button in the ball so you could keep the pedal operation uninterrupted. What do you think?

Shafi

It's been standard procedure for some time on roadracing motorcycles in classes which rule out electromechanical/air shifters to put a microswitch on the shifter detent cam, so the ignition is cut when you begin to move the lever, and comes back online only after the gear engagement is complete. This eliminates operator error pushing a button 'by feel'-can't kill it early and bind it up, doesn't keep it killed any longer than necessary.
I've been toying with this idea myself for my A833 Mopar 4-speed, although it would take a lot more switches to accommodate.
In a vehicle with electronic engine management, it would be very easy to cut fuel, ignition, ignition timing or even use a 'soft' rev limiter signaled by a shift sensor. I don't know the lever/fork/shifter arrangement on your trans but the concept doesn't change.

Full throttle shifts are Cool Beans.

edit: Oops, yeah I got in the conversation late.

Eric

YancyJohns
01-02-2010, 11:39 AM
Pretty cool video Shafi of the clutchless transmission. Great product! I hope you don't mind Bill and I coming over on the 15th to see the transmission install.

tyoneal
08-07-2011, 02:34 AM
Hi Al,

I hope there are a bunch of us out there flogging the Road & Track 6-speeds this year.

I am working on the TKO and some other models as well to round out the offerings.

Shafi
==========================================
Shafi:

Do you have an update on the interruption boxes you were looking at to work withthe Road and Track 6-speed?

What is the latest on the Blip as well?

Thanks,

Ty

andrewb70
08-07-2011, 08:57 AM
Lingenfelter just came out with an ignition cut module for LS engines.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1399819-torque-cut-module-face-plated-dog-engagement-gear-sets.html

Andrew

tyoneal
08-08-2011, 03:09 AM
Lingenfelter just came out with an ignition cut module for LS engines.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-transmission/1399819-torque-cut-module-face-plated-dog-engagement-gear-sets.html

Andrew
==============================
Andrew:

Thanks for the information.

Bettie Page I NEVER get tired of seeing her. (Olivia did a good rendition of her)

DarkoNova
08-08-2011, 01:04 PM
Was this ever released? I can't even find it on the Keisler website.

Mr. Anderson
08-30-2011, 05:32 PM
I missed this the first time around but this is one of the coolest things I've seen on the board. I second Matt's question!

tyoneal
10-20-2011, 03:50 AM
Hello:

There are several products I have found that will work with a "Clutchless" 6 Speed Transmission. If you have a chance check these out and let me know what you think, or even better if you are using one or all of these, please relates some of your experiences with them. It appears us mortals are on the verge of really being able to afford some of the technology that was for the most part for "High Dollar Race Teams Only".

The following parts appear to add in a very positive way to the attributes of the Dog Box Type Gearbox. Anything you can share about each of these items would be greatly appreciated.
================================================== =====

Has anyone out there used a T-56 or "H" pattern Dog Box Transmission in their cars?

What type did you use and how did you like it?

Did you use any of the accessories that were offered by other companies, that allowed you to "Flat Shift" the Gear box? The link below allows you to flat shift your "H" pattern Gearbox. Without letting up on the throttle at all.

http://www.holinger.com.au/pdfs/hgk-sa.pdf
========================================
Did you use any of the accessories that allowed you to downshift using a "Auto Blip" function?

I have heard that Holinger would allow this function also when used with the "Master Shift" Product.
========================================
Have you seen any of the products offered by a company called, "Master Shift"?

http://mastershift.com

http://mastershift.com/newvideogallery.html

They offer a product that allows you to paddle shift a "H" pattern Manual Transmission.

Here is a YouTube Video showing how it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YYqu0C9MM&NR=1
========================================

Has anyone heard anything about the Proshift Product line? This product also can be made to work with a Keisler Road and Track T-56

Proshift.com
========================================

Hypothetically one would think that if you used a combination of these parts with a Dog Box Gearbox, you could get performance similar to that of a sequential transmission.

This said, I have found very little about that type of use.

Is there anyone on here that has any experience with this application, OR, any of these three products, and how did you like the design and functions of the product.

I look forward to anyone who can shed some light on this topic (s).

Thanks for taking a look at this,

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal

andrewb70
11-13-2011, 11:06 AM
Ty,

The things that you have listed above are all doable in my opinion. I just don't think that many people have done this, thus you aren't getting a lot of responses. Essentially any dog-ring transmission can be paddle shifted if there is a mechanism in place, such as the mastershift system. If the mastershift system is combined with a engine ECU that has a programmable "flat shift" feature, then the shifting can be done without using the clutch. The "flat shift" systems allow for a momentary ignition interrupt just before the shift. The ignition interrupt take the load off the input shaft which allows a dog-ring transmission to be shifted. If the engine ECU also has the ability to control an electronic throttle body, then it is possible to implement clutchless downshifting with rev matching. Essentially the ECU knows what gear the transmission is in and what speed the vehicle is traveling, from there it is a simple matter of adjusting the DBW throttle to get close to the desired RPM in the next lower gear.

All of these systems have been implemented for years on race cars.

Instead of the paddle system, I would prefer a shifter like the ones made by Ikeya. They make a shifter that turns an H-pattern trans into a sequential pattern:

http://www.ikeya-f.co.jp/en/product_notice/sequen_shifter.html#shashu-shifter-e

If they made a shifter like that for the T56, then it would be simple forward and back motions for shifting.

Andrew

tyoneal
11-14-2011, 03:52 AM
Ty,

The things that you have listed above are all doable in my opinion. I just don't think that many people have done this, thus you aren't getting a lot of responses. Essentially any dog-ring transmission can be paddle shifted if there is a mechanism in place, such as the mastershift system. If the mastershift system is combined with a engine ECU that has a programmable "flat shift" feature, then the shifting can be done without using the clutch. The "flat shift" systems allow for a momentary ignition interrupt just before the shift. The ignition interrupt take the load off the input shaft which allows a dog-ring transmission to be shifted. If the engine ECU also has the ability to control an electronic throttle body, then it is possible to implement clutchless downshifting with rev matching. Essentially the ECU knows what gear the transmission is in and what speed the vehicle is traveling, from there it is a simple matter of adjusting the DBW throttle to get close to the desired RPM in the next lower gear.

All of these systems have been implemented for years on race cars.

Instead of the paddle system, I would prefer a shifter like the ones made by Ikeya. They make a shifter that turns an H-pattern trans into a sequential pattern:

http://www.ikeya-f.co.jp/en/product_notice/sequen_shifter.html#shashu-shifter-e

If they made a shifter like that for the T56, then it would be simple forward and back motions for shifting.

Andrew
Andrew:

Thanks a million for tackling this question, and the link to go with it.
I will be seeing right after this. After I get my current right in the road, I really want to investigate doing this. I can't help but thing this was be a really trick way to having something actually real new to PT.

I'll see if I can keep you posted on this, and if you think of anything else, please let me know.

Thanks,

Ty

tyoneal(at)flash.net (Direct)