are there any AWD PT cars here?

[twosaturns]

occurred to me that I haven't seen any AWD projects here. anybody aware of any 'real' projects (not just 'um, I'm gonna do one' kind of deals)

[Morgan]

You bet. I have a '91 GMC Syclone and am currently updating the engine, tranny & brakes.

[twosaturns]

You bet. I have a '91 GMC Syclone and am currently updating the engine, tranny & brakes.
ok, cool truck but not what I meant; yours is originally AWD, I was wondering if anyone has ever made like a AWD camaro or chevelle or something.

[Larry Callahan]

I know of one in the works and that's all I can say for now.

[WS6]

does quadra-deuce count? That and the camaro that's been int he works for many years are the only two I am aware of. Quadra-deuce is more of a street rod but I'm ok with calling it a PT car if you really want to label it

[Restomod]

The 32 that was posted here several days ago but it is in Europe.

[Memphis]

I know of one in the works and that's all I can say for now.
Is it a mid engine 67 GTO? :yum:

[Larry Callahan]

Nope

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

ahahhahahha!

[Memphis]

I wonder then :D

[avewhtboy]

I think some chrysler 300 with awd are road racing. if you check those forums.

I would think that might be an interesting chassis to use for a build.

SRT8 chassis with pedders upgrades grafted to an old school body.

[silver69camaro]

I've always thought the rewards don't match the effort when converting to AWD. In the end, I want the front tires to steer and stop, nothing else...any more and you're asking for some heavy understeer.

[Bryce]

I've always thought the rewards don't match the effort when converting to AWD. In the end, I want the front tires to steer and stop, nothing else...any more and you're asking for some heavy understeer.

Agreed. If you are running on a track not gravel or dirt or snow I dont see a benefit. It a huge weight increase and will just further screw with weight distribution. Its more of a token thing to say, "I have AWD, word!"

Now a show car or off the wall build not a track car would be kinda cool. I was thinking about a AWD falcon wagon. Kinda to compete with the euro sports wagon or subaru.

[marolf101x]

I know of one! Though it is taking forever to build as I spend way to much time designing parts for everyone else!

I decided to go AWD for a few reasons:
-the challenge. If it were easy everyone would have AWD muscle cars.
-parts. more and more OEM cars are using AWD so the parts are more readily available than they have ever been.
-control. I want to drive the Camaro everyday, rain, shine, or snow. I'm also working on the rear steering so I have all 4 wheels pulling and turning

There are many things to overcome. . .number one being packaging. It would have been a lot easier to use an "off the shelf" unit from a Bravada, STS, truck,Subaru, Audi, etc. But all of these have problems. The main one being weight distribution. If I were to have kept the transfer case on the trans and run the front diff through the oil pan the motor sits quite high in the car and the front is quite heavy. So I moved the motor behind the front diff and divorced the transfer case. This helps the weight but make packaging a huge PITA!

I was waiting to "officially" release this car till I was a lot further along, but maybe some attention will make me leave the office and work in my own garage.

[calforniacuda]

Do you have a solution for using the C5 suspension for the front. the coilovers goes through the control arms where the axle needs to go?

Have you been able to work on the project recently?

[marolf101x]

I've been working on the backbone structure lately (though the website has not been updated in quite a while).

I have two options on the front:
1-Shockwave with bag mounted above upper control arm. Upper mount ties to front downtubes, lower mount is a big "horseshoe" design (similar to what we use on the Vipers). This allows the driveshaft to go through the shock mount.
2-Cantilever set up. I can mount the shocks inboard of the frame rails as I have a lot of room between the radiator and the motor. I'm opposed to this only as it's more complicated.

Currently I have the suspension mounts done, the shock mounts are not done, the motor and trans are in place. The cage is mostly done. I'm working on the backbone structure which makes the firewall, trans tunnel, trans mount, and front driveshaft mounts.

[MarkM66]

I know of one in the works and that's all I can say for now.

I seem to remember this answer givin to the same question about 5 years ago.

Aparently, it's taking awhile. :)

[bret]

I've been staring at Marolfs AWD Camaro for about 2 years now. He has more ambition than I do!
Will it work? Absolutely. Is it worth it? Is ANY of this stuff "worth it?"
As with anything that any of us do...if it was easy, everyone would be doing it!

[Larry Callahan]

I know of one! Though it is taking forever to build as I spend way to much time designing parts for everyone else!

I decided to go AWD for a few reasons:
-the challenge. If it were easy everyone would have AWD muscle cars.
-parts. more and more OEM cars are using AWD so the parts are more readily available than they have ever been.
-control. I want to drive the Camaro everyday, rain, shine, or snow. I'm also working on the rear steering so I have all 4 wheels pulling and turning

There are many things to overcome. . .number one being packaging. It would have been a lot easier to use an "off the shelf" unit from a Bravada, STS, truck,Subaru, Audi, etc. But all of these have problems. The main one being weight distribution. If I were to have kept the transfer case on the trans and run the front diff through the oil pan the motor sits quite high in the car and the front is quite heavy. So I moved the motor behind the front diff and divorced the transfer case. This helps the weight but make packaging a huge PITA!

I was waiting to "officially" release this car till I was a lot further along, but maybe some attention will make me leave the office and work in my own garage.

This is the car I was talking about above. I can't wait to see it run.

[Young Gun]

I have always wanted to see an old muscle car built to compete and race in the rally car series'

[Ash]

Most of the conversation I've seen of adapting AWD has revolved around the Borg Warner 4472 transfer case used in the Typhoon/Asto/Safari with a 4L60-E. It also seems the consensus of using a manual transmission with a high power engine can make the stock chain driven transfer case fail.

Where the above vehicles are unibody, the Explorer/mountaineer is body on frame. What about using the second gen explorer 5.0 Windsor AWD as a foundation? The AWD system on the second gen is also full time (It uses the Borg Warner 4404 http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218430) There is a guy over at http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=53 that took it down to rolling chassis and put F-100 body over it, fully retaining the drive-train and engine. The frame and driveshafts could be shortened depending on application. There is a good amount of suspension tech for street applications as well. Just a thought, as I've never seen this idea brought up before

[calforniacuda]

Most of the 4wd/awd in the US place the engine over the front suspension/axle . This makes the the engine sit up pretty high.

There are very few mid engine awd layouts.

[LeighP]

This is a Holden Commodore Crewman Cross-8









https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/55724_00mg-1.jpg

This is a Holden Commodore Coupe4
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/shaoran_san_1101584245_holden_hsv_coupe_-1.jpg

Both of these cars run AWD with an LS1 V8 engine......they are basically the same engineering as the GTO sold in the USA.
If this set up is available in a production vehicle with LS1 power, it shouldn't be impossible to transplant it into an earlier car.

[twosaturns]

Most of the 4wd/awd in the US place the engine over the front suspension/axle . This makes the the engine sit up pretty high.

There are very few mid engine awd layouts.
I would put the pumpkin next to the engine and run one driveshaft through the oil pan. maybe with enough setback, you could plant the crank pulley just behind the driveshaft.

just a thought.

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

i seen a 69 awd in the works too 6speed manual =X

[calforniacuda]

Are there any American cars that use the Holden front suspension/pumpkin/engine location?

Does anybody have pictures of the Holden setup?

[Derek69SS]

Unless you're autocrossing in the rain, or rallycrossing on dirt, I don't really see the point... Very little performance benefit on dry pavement and a lot of added weight, complexity, and parasitic HP losses.

If it's a daily-driver that's going to see snow, absolutely AWD rocks, but who builds a musclecar to drive in rust-belt winters anymore?

[calforniacuda]

Another advange of awd is providing more traction for launching during typical street conditions. It is so easy to overpower the rear tires when not on a drag strip.

[novaderrik]

i've thought about stuffing the front suspension and AWD from an Astro van under my '74 Monte Carlo with a mild LT1 providing the power.
the track width is really close andthe Monte puts the engine far enough behind the front suspension that clearance around the engine shouldn't be much of an issue, but the funky van steering box mounting would make the steering linkage somewhat fun to figure out.
being a daily driven MN car since it was new, the car isn't nice enough to ever really fix up the "right" way, but it would make a really awesome winter beater with the AWD. not sure it would ever qualify as "Pro Touring", tho.

[marolf101x]

Holden Parts: Good luck getting them. There were only about 300 Coupe 4 Monaros built (according to my contacts at Holden). The ute is easier to find, but still quite difficult. Here are some images
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[calforniacuda]

IS the awd cadillac sts similar to the Holden?

[marolf101x]

similar in the fact that it's a strut car. However, the Holden uses a transfer case with three gears. The driveshaft from the TC to the front diff is located on the passenger side (left side of the vehicle).
The Caddy uses a chain drive TC and the driveshaft is on the passenger side (right side).

As the Holden parts are difficult to come by I opted for the Caddy stuff. I wanted the driveshaft on the passenger side for clearance, and the Caddy parts can be picked up reasonably cheap. This is a "proof of concept" more than anything so I knew I'd break parts.

[shortrack]

FWIW - I remember when the AWD Audi's hit the Trans Am series....they cleaned up!......and where the Mustangs, Camaro's (and Cougars) of the day were purpose built tube framed ghost cars on inspection we couldnt believe how stock the Audi's were.....they still ran the bone stock unibody (very easy to see with the gutted interior) with a bunch of roll bars litterally just welded in....just like a Rally car actually.....

[jeff s]

I've been wanting to build an AWD musclecar ever since owning a Mitsu evo 8 a few years back. A customer had the same idea and is doing a great job on one. Here's his AWD 69 Camaro under construction with a modified version of our camaro full frame. I cant say anymore as it's confidential. But this pic has the front diff and transfercase in already.

[calforniacuda]

Looks like its using a strut, wonder where it from?

[twosaturns]

I've been wanting to build an AWD musclecar ever since owning a Mitsu evo 8 a few years back. A customer had the same idea and is doing a great job on one. Here's his AWD 69 Camaro under construction with a modified version of our camaro full frame. I cant say anymore as it's confidential. But this pic has the front diff and transfercase in already.

thanks Jeff for sharing. that's the kind of stuff I was looking for.

[calforniacuda]

Looks like the upper mount for strut was originally centered on the front wheel, and was moved to the rear to make way for the axle.

[calforniacuda]

I'll bet that the rear suspension may be independendent. With the transfer case and the engine/trans probably pulled back a bit, the drive shaft may not be long enough for any travel.

[jldallover]

I've been wanting to build an AWD musclecar ever since owning a Mitsu evo 8 a few years back. A customer had the same idea and is doing a great job on one. Here's his AWD 69 Camaro under construction with a modified version of our camaro full frame. I cant say anymore as it's confidential. But this pic has the front diff and transfercase in already.

Hey Jeff, 67 Nova AWD!? :idea::bananna2:. Just kidding. Would be cool though.

[jeff s]

This one is using C4 rear suspension.
AWD Nova? Sure, all it takes is money. LOL.

[calforniacuda]

Are the tcase and front diff off of a typhoon and is there a custom adapter from the tcase to the t56?

[Kennedy]

Jeff S,

Can you tell me what transmission and transfer case combo that is? I would love to do an awd mustang fastback, but think it may be a little ambitious for my first project.

Thanks,
Chris K

[alnoe]

Britt

Very cool car. I have wanted to do an AWD Camaro for many years-3 kids, work, etc have made me realize that it is not going to happen any time soon.

Bret-You need to give the guy some time off to work on that beast!

If you need a head/cam package to "test" the AWD stuff let me know. Our 98 shop car goes 11.40 with our top end kit, an LS shortblock, A4. Very driveable stuff. It would be a good way to see what may be the weak link, if there is one.

Al Noe
Trick Flow

[ace_xp2]

For those wondering what to use, why not a r32/33/4 Skyline trans/center diff?
They seem strong, and the center diff has I believe been hacked in all kinds of ways to control its engagement. IIRC it has a wet clutch of some type to control engagement. Just something to look into.

[marolf101x]

Al, Thanks for the offer. I have a feeling I'll locate the weak link with only the stock 385hp. But once I have it all living it'll be time to up the power and break something else!

Ace, I thought about the Nissan stuff, but it'd take quite a few changes to make it work. (I have attached an image for reference). In the Nissan the trans and transfer case are one unit, with the shifter actually coming out of the TC. With the Caddy stuff I only have to make one simple adapter to mount the TC to the C5 rear, thereby giving me a divorced TC for more interior room and better weight distribution.

[calforniacuda]

The new Nissan GTR uses the same strategy. The tcase is bolted to the rear diff with a long propshaft to the front diff.

[calforniacuda]

Does the tcase you are using need a controller?

[marolf101x]

No, it's always 60% rear, 40% front. I choose this TC specifically as it was non-electrically controlled. It makes life easier at this point. Once everything else proves it will live I'd like to change to an electronically controlled unit.

[absmith]

I know of one! Though it is taking forever to build as I spend way to much time designing parts for everyone else!

I decided to go AWD for a few reasons:
-the challenge. If it were easy everyone would have AWD muscle cars.
-parts. more and more OEM cars are using AWD so the parts are more readily available than they have ever been.
-control. I want to drive the Camaro everyday, rain, shine, or snow. I'm also working on the rear steering so I have all 4 wheels pulling and turning.


I would like to hear more about the rear steer system you're working on.

[marolf101x]

I'm just starting on it now (and by starting I mean investigating options). I'd really like to do a full electric, or an electric over hydraulic system in the rear. The reason is I may be able to find an "off the shelf" steering controller that can pick up the VSS and the stock Vette steering angle sensors. This way I can have the rear steering do different things at different speeds (in conjunction with the front, or independent of the front). If I cannot locate an off the shelf system I'll just have to make one.

[Kenova]

If you can find one, take a look at the GM Quadrasteer trucks. They used a solid rear axle, but you may get some ideas by looking at the operating systems. They were electric, speed sensitive and had a control button for turning the system on and off. In the event of a system failure or malfunction, they were designed to revert to a wheels pointing forward position.

Ken

[marolf101x]

Ken, thanks for the suggestion. I've already looked at the Quadrasteer option as it is the most "famous", though Mazda, Honda, Infinity, Renault, etc. have had versions.

The Quadrasteer control system is quite expensive as they simply didn't make many of them.

I have a lot of research to do before I decide on something. I'll keep you all posted. Thank you for any and all input you guys have!

[calforniacuda]

Some of the Trailblazers use a torsen tcase, that bolts up to a 4l60e. The torsen uses some magical mechanical gear combo to INSTANTLY transfer torque to the front or back, without a controller.

[GregW]

I have a 1985 GMC S15 Jimmy 4x4. It has been converted to AWD, has an LT1, 4L60E, LS1 Camaro brakes, Corvette rims, Corvette Grand Sport paint, Typhoon interior, etc etc

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/jsw_100_9478-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/jse_Picture_047-1.jpg

[Rod]

I haven't seen an AWD Camaro yet (hint,hint) but I have a 2007 EVO that was crashed and I am currently looking for a bucket 1967 Camaro (rusted and almost unsurvivable) body and we just finished a LS motor for that future project, possible at the end of next year? unless I get a shot at building a pro-tour(autocross) shop truck(meaning stumble on a deal) then it could be pushed out further :nopity:

[marolf101x]

If you can get the Evo electronics to work that would be (I don't even know what to write)!!!! I shied away from the electronics for the moment as packaging is a big enough headache!

Hope it goes well. Keep us posted.

[Vicinity]

I was considering it on my 4th gen Camaro, but with the plans laid out, I could not afford it even if I wanted to do it.

[Rod]

If you can get the Evo electronics to work that would be (I don't even know what to write)!!!! I shied away from the electronics for the moment as packaging is a big enough headache!

Hope it goes well. Keep us posted.

well the EVO runs now it just took a tumble, but now your scaring me Britt, looked at what your doing and it looks great! awesome birdcage work:cheers:

[ArtosDracon]

If you can pull every wire from the evo and are happy running everything in stock form it shouldn't be too awful, but depending on how tightly everything is integrated, it will be likely that you're going to need everything from pedals to guage cluster in the camaro, likely even the radio if it's a IX or newer.

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[Tig]

I have a 1985 GMC S15 Jimmy 4x4. It has been converted to AWD, has an LT1, 4L60E, LS1 Camaro brakes, Corvette rims, Corvette Grand Sport paint, Typhoon interior, etc etc

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/jsw_100_9478-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/jse_Picture_047-1.jpg

HOLY SHMOLY
Beautiful truck.
Do you have a build thread?

[Vicinity]

??????

Super spam. Not the edible kind.

[Vicinity]

I have a 1985 GMC S15 Jimmy 4x4. It has been converted to AWD, has an LT1, 4L60E, LS1 Camaro brakes, Corvette rims, Corvette Grand Sport paint, Typhoon interior, etc etc

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/jsw_100_9478-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/jse_Picture_047-1.jpg

Are those early C5 wheels? They look awesome on that truck.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I've always thought the rewards don't match the effort when converting to AWD. In the end, I want the front tires to steer and stop, nothing else...any more and you're asking for some heavy understeer.

I agree Matt. I have a Porsche C4S, which is a non turbo version of their AWD platform. I remember Road and Track called it the 'Ultimate Sticky Device' (but the car does have the tendency to push in the corners) and felt the car had some understeer and lacked personality compared to the 2WD version; most people like the 2WD version better for driving fun and in car feedback. I believe the two cars were pretty close on the track. I have been in a 4wheel slide around a corner and it was an e-ticket. As soon as I let off the gas, the car planted and went straight but it did understeer. I wonder how it would do on an AutoX track?

My point of all this is I think you're right. AWD is a neat idea, but packaging, cost and resulting benefit for a PT car may not give the handling results one might think.

Just my .02

[TonyL]

Heres one you may not have thought of.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/ALCorvfrt-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/ALCorvrr-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/ALCorveng-1.jpg

Its a Porsche powered full AWD pro-touring Corvair. The car now sports cooler looking porsche wheels. I wish I could find a picture.

[Tig]

Dayumn Tony, THATS a bad ass ride.
You have a build thread?

[TonyL]

on that car? No sadly. The guy who did it is VERY reclusive. Details are sketchy, I had to dig those photos up from an archive that had since been deleted. I can do this for you though.

the text from the original article


The Corvair is an wild project: Alan being a Porsche man, it has a 993 engine and trans fit to a 964 front end. The two are connected with a lengthened driveshaft, as the wheelbase is a full 18" longer than the Porsche's! The Corvair was gutted and Porsche front and rear clips were welded inside the openings in the Corvair and tied into the subframes. The stock Porsche climate control system is up forward, and the chin spoiler produces a slight negative pressure to help pull air from the front-mounted horizontal heat exchanger for the A/C. The interior has the Porsche dash and seat fitted, and the wheels (which I think really look great on the car) are Porsche spare wheels from a couple different models.


The business end. The 3.6L is stuffed in there admirably. The car retains its aircooled six-cylinder heritage, but gains more than double the power and an extra set of drive wheels! Alan says the handling so far seems great, but it hasn't been out of the immediate area so there will likely be some shake-down tales to come.

[PhillipM]

How old is that build?

[TonyL]

The corvair? At least 5 years.