Welding sway bar arms

[Motorcitydak]

I am in the mock up phase of my build for a '68 Charger. I want to use most of the front end parts from Hotchkis for it (everything except the sway bar now). The reason is that I am trying to run a 315 front tire (I know, I know, but that is not the question here) just because I can. I made a rim simulator to check the fit. I will have to decrease the back spacing on the wheels because the tires are hitting my front sway bar rite now. I will be removing it and spacing my wheels out a little more to be able to turn a little more. My question is can I run a universal sway bar like one from speedway motors using their steel arms and cut em in a few spots to angle them out a little. Basically I want to run em rite below my strut rods since those cannot be moved. I cannot see any reason why I could not cut and weld em, but wanted to check with you guys before I went any further with my idea.

Right tire on hitting the sway bar turning right
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/tirefit002-1.jpg

Turning left I have almost full travel, should only get better with spacing
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/tirefit003-1.jpg

BTW, they fit under my 'glass fenders rite now. I plan on moving the tires out around 1.5 inches and see how it sits then so I am planning on flaring out the fenders a little to fit the tires still

[JRouche]

BIG tire... Ok, Ill just comment on the sway bar issue even though I have other questions..

Yes... You can form the arms. Id be careful about trimming them much. You can bend them all you want. But dont remove material to where the arm is thinner (top to bottom) than the outer tip of the arm. And dont thin it out for thickness at all.

It sounds like you want to thin it out on the vertical section. Dont. It can be trimmed on the top and bottom, as long as its not any smaller than the shortest portion of the bar as supplied. But I wouldnt thin the bar out on the sides.

I had a similar issue just recently while fabbing up my front end. I had 1.5" of clearance between the frame and the tire when it was turned all the way in, the bar needed to occupy that area. I tried and tried to figure out a way to stuff the bar in that space. And that was with bending the arms at the perfect point. Wasnt happening. Too tight.

So I found a new mounting point for the link end on the control arm. I still bent the arms using heat. Fits perfect now. Complete suspension travel and nothing touches... Its tight, but no matter what nothing touches. JR

[Motorcitydak]

Very good to know, thanks. I found some arms for sale on ebay from some nascar team. They have a bend in em already. I have no idea if they will fit or not, but it may be something for me to start with. I am not really looking to remove any material tho, I am just curious if I could take a straight arm, cut it vertically then weld it back together at an angle. I may need to do a few of these per side, I am not too sure yet tho.

I did remove the sway bar yesturday and I spaced the 'rims' out another 1.5 inches. That would give me a 17x10 rim with a 4.5 inch BS. With the sway bar gone, I can turn the right tire all the way to the left. It locks out before the tire hits the strut rod. It still does not the frame rail when turned to the right, so I will just live with the slightly reduced turning radius. Its not like I need to steer that far when at speed anyways

I think that if I can get a splined bar in the rite place with the arms bent in the rite spots putting them as close to under the strut rods as possible, I will be able to run the 315's on the front too.

[The WidowMaker]

just did the same for mine, but i may order another set and use mine as a template to get them bent. i didnt cut all the way through, but rather about 1/2 and used as much heat as i could so i wouldnt crack the remaining portion. used the miller 210 to sew them back up after preheating again. other than screwing with the properties of the steel, i dont see how this would actually weaken them. maybe just a hardening needed?

[mrn2obelvedere]

I have a few comments for what they are worth.

1) Shortening the moment arm of the sway bar will make it stiffer
2) Bending the sway bar arms will introduce some bending loads into the arms themselves that they are probably not designed to take.
3) Cutting, notching, grinding, etc to make the arms easier to bend will magnify the effects of number 2

Will the above make the parts fail? I don't know, I'm just applying general principles to the situation.

[JRouche]

I have a few comments for what they are worth.

1) Shortening the moment arm of the sway bar will make it stiffer
2) Bending the sway bar arms will introduce some bending loads into the arms themselves that they are probably not designed to take.
3) Cutting, notching, grinding, etc to make the arms easier to bend will magnify the effects of number 2

Will the above make the parts fail? I don't know, I'm just applying general principles to the situation.

I talked to speedway engineering before I bend my arms. I was concerned and curious. They said heating the bar up and bending it is the correct way to do it.

I think its always a good idea to talk to the folks that supply the parts and get there professional opinion. JR

Speedway arms.....
http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybar_Arms.htm

[JRouche]

just did the same for mine, but i may order another set and use mine as a template to get them bent. i didnt cut all the way through, but rather about 1/2 and used as much heat as i could so i wouldnt crack the remaining portion. used the miller 210 to sew them back up after preheating again. other than screwing with the properties of the steel, i dont see how this would actually weaken them. maybe just a hardening needed?

If they were mild steel arms then there is no hardening process. Speedway does sell some 4130 arms that would definitely need some pre and post welding work. But their mild steel arms can be cut, heated, bent or welded without any additional concern than when you work mild steel, very workable.... JR

[Motorcitydak]

I understand that there may be soem twisting in the arms themselves, but in the end I think I will have to do whatever I can to get a bar to fit my car. I cannot imagine that the bar would see over 500# of force on the end where the link mounts to. I know that it will be magnified since it is such a long arm, but even mild steel at that size should be able to handle much more stress. If 3/16 plate can be used for axle mounts, I think that the arms should be fine. I hope atleast.

I really do not want to shorten the arms at all, but I really have no idea how long they will have to be. That will have to be something I will need to discuss with speedway I guess

[mrn2obelvedere]

I have one concern I think is pretty valid. By constraining yourself to this tire (which is admittedly cool looking), you are constraining yourself to other parts in your suspension. What will you do if this sway bar ends up too soft or too stiff after all of this? I might also note that the shape of the tire will change when mounted and inflated, and also it will deflect a good bit under load, so give yourself some margin of error when you do get to bending the arms.

[Bjkadron]

I have one concern I think is pretty valid. By constraining yourself to this tire (which is admittedly cool looking), you are constraining yourself to other parts in your suspension. What will you do if this sway bar ends up too soft or too stiff after all of this? I might also note that the shape of the tire will change when mounted and inflated, and also it will deflect a good bit under load, so give yourself some margin of error when you do get to bending the arms.

If your using a splined type swaybar you can get different diameter bars to get you close, then adjust the end mounting point to fine tune it.. But you will want to check the clearance for your entire adjustment range.

[Motorcitydak]

Absolutely. I really want the WIDE tires and I like having the same tires front and rear. Really the only part I have to change is the sway bar which I figure is not that bad. It should not cost much more than the Hotchkis bar either. I understand that I may want to change the bar, but as Bj said, all I would have to do is get another $100 splined bar. I will leave at least 1 inch for clearance around the tire, but remember that I would never get to full lock on the steering at speed. That is only to get into a parking spot.

I just bought 4 brand new 315/30 18's and will be ordering my wheels soon, so 2nd stage mock up will be done with my final wheels/tires at pressure to check them again. Those tires on there now are 16's and I just bought them to make sure that the 315's would actually fit (sort of) before I went ahead and bought the $$$ wheels and tires.

[astroracer]

I think there is a little confusion amongst some of the posters as to what he is doing to what...
He is wanting to modify the steel sway bar "arms" as shown in the pick. He is not cutting and welding on the sway bar itself...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[The WidowMaker]

correct, he's wanting to do this

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/IMG_6890-1.jpg?t=1260851029

not sure how a hotchkis bar and a splined bar cost the same. i have over $500 of materials in mine, and it took a TON of time to get everything bent, pillowblock made, delrin turned and test fit over and over again. probably 30 hours in this damn thing.

Tim

[JRouche]

not sure how a hotchkis bar and a splined bar cost the same. i have over $500 of materials in mine, and it took a TON of time to get everything bent, pillowblock made, delrin turned and test fit over and over again. probably 30 hours in this damn thing.

Tim

If he is going with speedway parts like I did it is prolly around 250-300 bucks. They sell the all the parts needed. I did go with some qa1 rod ends instead of theirs though, they were the same price. JR

[Motorcitydak]

Thanks guys, that is what I am trying to do here. The hotchkis bar os $300, guess I over estimated the price of the splined bar. No big deal tho. Im looking forward to a custom setup that I can change and adjust anyways.

[silver69camaro]

That would give me a 17x10 rim with a 4.5 inch BS.

Are you really going to run an offset like that up front?

[The WidowMaker]

id have to dig out my slip, but off the top of my head; 75 for each arm, 120+ for the custom bar, + $ to heat treat once cut to size, 10+ bucks ea for the collars and if you go with their pillow blocks youre looking at 30 ea. i spent an additional 60 on qa1 rod ends with a stud. ~410 without the heat treat.

really not trying to argue, but this stuff adds up FAST!!!!!! i blew my budget. and you have to admit that they arent an easy bolt on deal. for an additional 400 i could have had the bolt on dse bar, but where would the fun be in that.

[JRouche]

id have to dig out my slip, but off the top of my head; 75 for each arm, 120+ for the custom bar, + $ to heat treat once cut to size, 10+ bucks ea for the collars and if you go with their pillow blocks youre looking at 30 ea. i spent an additional 60 on qa1 rod ends with a stud. ~410 without the heat treat.

really not trying to argue, but this stuff adds up FAST!!!!!! i blew my budget. and you have to admit that they arent an easy bolt on deal. for an additional 400 i could have had the bolt on dse bar, but where would the fun be in that.

You are right, the parts costs do add up. No doubt..

Im looking at my receipt from speedway. $312 without shipping or tax. Tax is killing me!!! Twice the cost of shipping..

So anyway. 92 for the bar, 21 ea for the pillow blocks, 42 ea for the arms, collars are 7 ea, rod ends are 14 ea (need four, I went with qa1 which was the same price.

But I have aluminum arms so if you have steel they may be more. Too bad you couldnt get the correct rate and length bar you needed off the web site. But really, thats not bad at all for a custom bar.

What is the length and rate of your bar? With all the bars they offer for 92 bucks its hard to not find one that will fit. I actually made up a simple (hand written) spread sheet of all the bars for the diameter I needed to see what would work for me. Accounting for all the variables. Arm length along with bar length and thickness (hollow bars) as well as the solid bar.

With all the bends in yours the length was prolly critical for you.

But yeah, its a 300-400 dollar bar, not bad at all considering you can pick the desired rate for your car. Not just a rate that many companies sell for a variety of cars. Mo custom. Off the shelf bars that many companies sell are great for the guy that dosent want to assemble the parts and make it fit. They do have their place for a car guy. Bolt in ready to go is nice.

Oh, and your setup looks good. Nice work. I can relate to the fitting issues. I just got done doing all that. Was crazy for a lil while. JR

[Motorcitydak]

Are you really going to run an offset like that up front?

I dont have much of a choice. You think I will have a horrible scrub radius? If I want to run a crazy wide front tire, that is one of the things I am going to have to deal with. These are going to be my street tires/wheels. If I do not like them, I will get a different size for the track

[silver69camaro]

Yes, the scrub will be pretty bad. You'll need a pretty stout steering system to withstand the loads, and the pump will probably by bypassing pretty often. You may want to look into a steering cooler to keep the fluid decent.

[Motorcitydak]

sweet idea, thanks! Im going to use a firm feel box, most likely stage 2 and the Hotckkis setup comes with seriously beefed up steering links. Because of the motor Im going to run (5.7 Hemi) Im going to have to use an aftermarket pump. It will be one from street and performance, which are just modified ones from a mid 80's Chevy car (Cadillac, and ones like that). It will have a remote reservoir too. Do I put the cooler on the return line from the box to the reservoir? On the line from the reservoir to the pump? Or both?

[silver69camaro]

Just from box to resevoir. I'd look into a KRC pump, they run much cooler than reman GM pumps...and have the same bolt pattern too. There should be absolutely no restrictions between resevoir and pump.

[autoxcuda]

I dont have much of a choice. You think I will have a horrible scrub radius? If I want to run a crazy wide front tire, that is one of the things I am going to have to deal with. These are going to be my street tires/wheels. If I do not like them, I will get a different size for the track

On a 18" rim you should be able to run up to 5.5" backspacing with stock spindles, stock configured sway bar, and the 73-76 A-body disk brake 11.75" disk swap spindles or any other brake swap that put the wheel face in the stock location.

Read about fitting 17"+ front rims with high backspace on Mopar's here: http://www.moparfins.com/CLAIRDAVIS/Cobra_Wheel.htm


Is is that the inside tire edge is hitting the frame?

You should switch to the 70 B-body K-member or 71-72 B-body/70-74 E-body K-member with the sway bar going through the K-member. That sway bar is narrower and attached way better to the K-member. You shouldn't really need a custom sway bar.

But you will need the 70 up LCA swap bar brackets. Hotchkis sells those for $29.95. You could add those to some non sway bar LCA and then re-inforce the underside of the LCA like this with just some 1" strap that is just as effective but weighs less than a full plate.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The narrow/thru K-member sway bar type LCA is like the LCA on the left.

[Motorcitydak]

Thanks for the info, I am planning on using the tubular K member and lower arms for the car with the Hotchkis uppers. Ill have to dig around to find the '70 setup. Im assuming that I will be able to just tell Manici's that I want the '70 setup instead then

[autoxcuda]

Thanks for the info, I am planning on using the tubular K member and lower arms for the car with the Hotchkis uppers. Ill have to dig around to find the '70 setup. Im assuming that I will be able to just tell Manici's that I want the '70 setup instead then

I'm not a fan of the Cap tubular K-members or LCA's for handling stuff. I would just get a 70 up K-member and have it welded.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Reforced on left, stock on right.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The LCA pin in the middle with the egg shaped shoulder can not be used with poly LCA bushings. Pins and bores are polished to minimize squeeking and suspension binding.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

70 up thru pass sway bar LCA on left and gusseted with 1" strap to be lightweight and effective. 69-down sway bar style LCA on right.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Norm Peterson]

I understand that there may be soem twisting in the arms themselves, but in the end I think I will have to do whatever I can to get a bar to fit my car. I cannot imagine that the bar would see over 500# of force on the end where the link mounts to.
It could easily be double that or more, depending on the overall bar stiffness and how much roll can be developed. I suspect that a bar that gives only 500 lb/in measured at only one endlink location (rather than endlink to endlink) is not particularly stiff, and I'd plan on more than 1" of vertical endlink movement.


Norm

[Motorcitydak]

I'm not a fan of the Cap tubular K-members or LCA's for handling stuff. I would just get a 70 up K-member and have it welded.




Interesting, why is that? Do you have experience with them failing? I have not heard much feedback about them, I just want to run it because of the 40 some # weight savings

[autoxcuda]

Interesting, why is that? Do you have experience with them failing? I have not heard much feedback about them, I just want to run it because of the 40 some # weight savings

There was a upper control arm that was involved in an accident that didn't seem to have great welds on it. The welding doesn't look super pretty on them. But I realize that is just looks.

The K-member looks like a fine lightweight piece for a drag racer. But there doesn't look like much to handle side loads. Seems like a lot of money for 50 lbs that's not very beefy. There's lot of room for up front for the pan but the rear centerlink/idler/pitman that usually hurts pan interference. Same issues for header fitment.

And I wonder about that 50 lbs saving. The k-member I just picked up can't be more that 50-60 lbs by itself. I was able to pick it up with two fingers from the center and I'm no body builder. Couldn't do it with one finger.

Maybe they are claiming 50 lbs with the LCA included. Well, those are like 10 lbs each. I don't think the K-member and LCA's weight more than 80 lbs. So they can take that down to 30 lbs total??

[outlaw 03]

For good used bars and arms do a google search for ysed nascar parts roush has a good selection so does a few others.

[mrn2obelvedere]

The CAP "K" frame should be called an "H" frame. There is no triangulation in that frame. Like autoxcuda said it doesn't look like it would fare too well in a side loading scenario. IMO it is going to be pretty tough to beat the stiffness of a stock mopar K frame, especially if you take some time to weld up the seams. From a structual perspective that convoluted, fully boxed shape just does not like to bend. I think a nice tubular setup could be made stronger and lighter than the mopar unit, but it needs to be well thought out, and the cap unit definitely hasn't been. You could augment the CAP frame with additional bars in an effort to triangulate it, but for the cost of that frame I personally wouldn't want to be cutting it up.

[Motorcitydak]

Understood, thanks for changing my mind about that part guys