TCI Shows how it's done at Super Chevy Challenge

[ibuildm]

Recently TCI competed at the Super Chevy Magazine Suspension and Handling Challenge. Mary Pozzi drove all the cars in the autocross so it made the competition as fair as possible.
TCI's 68 Camaro had their Coilover IFS subframe under the front and their new Torque-arm rear suspension in the rear and included their subframe connectors to tie the front and rear together. The front and rear both had TCI's own billet double adjustable coilovers. They were running Michelin PS Sport II tires with a 200 tread wear rating. The size was 275/35R18 on the front and 315/30R18 on the rear. They beat everyone in the autocross and came in 2nd in the slalom. Here is a link to TCI's website showing the 5 autocross runs the Mary made in the car.
http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/Test_Videos01.cfm
At the end it shows the times. Every run she picked up almost 1 second. Check out the next 4 issues of Super Chevy to see the full results of all 10 cars that competed.

[JRouche]

First off I gotta say, Mary, you are great driver. Fun to see the lines you pick and the throttle control. Suppose thats what makes you such a fast driver. CONTROL!!!! I loved the vid.

And second, what a nice car!!! Thanks for the info. JR

[David Pozzi]

You can tell on the last run how much more she was on the throttle. It takes a car that handles well, and inspires confidence, that is what Mary means by "no surprises". I got a chance to make 2 runs in it and felt the same way, the car was very predictable, it steered well and was very balanced with lots of stick, good brakes and it put the power down well too. I would have loved to make a dozen runs in that thing! I think it needs a little softening to ride better on the street, and that's pretty easy to do with their system.
David

[JRouche]

You can tell on the last run how much more she was on the throttle. It takes a car that handles well, and inspires confidence, that is what Mary means by "no surprises". I got a chance to make 2 runs in it and felt the same way, the car was very predictable, it steered well and was very balanced with lots of stick, good brakes and it put the power down well too.


Very good point David. For someone to hop into a car they have never driven and get the feel for it right off the bat speaks loudly for the neutral handling of the car. Oh!! Helps to have a driver (Mary) that can drive a car FAST...

There are some cars that you have to take them to the extreme of their handling characteristics to get a feel for the car. Usually they are tuned for too much over or understeer. Cant drive those cars to their limit till you know where their limit is.

On a predictable car, like the TCI car you can get in and drive the tires off it without any ugly handling issues popping up. Wonder if it was tuned for more understeer?

I like an oversteering car but you sure as heck better know the car before you start pushing it.

Push an understeering car and it just looses speed and dives into a turn, maybe off the course. Over drive an oversteering car and you are gonna be fast, till you take it to the point of no return (easy to do) and no amount of correction is gonna keep the rear from coming around.

A neutral car is great for the track and street. Predictable..

Oh, and I have to say. The vid is a lil lacking on what is really going on. When you hear the engine come up in Rs the vid makes it sound like its (engine) not working much. But Im sure there was plenty of torque being put to the road. The vid makes it seem like it was a walk in the park for Mary. And it prolly was, she is an accomplished racer. Id love to see the steering wheel during the run. That would show some nice steering along side the front vid shots.

Anyway... Happy Thanksgiving. Great run by Mary and Im jealous you guys get to have so much fun with the cars on the track!!!! JR

[JMarsa]

Recently TCI competed at the Super Chevy Magazine Suspension and Handling Challenge. Mary Pozzi drove all the cars in the autocross so it made the competition as fair as possible.
TCI's 68 Camaro had their Coilover IFS subframe under the front and their new Torque-arm rear suspension in the rear and included their subframe connectors to tie the front and rear together. The front and rear both had TCI's own billet double adjustable coilovers. They were running Michelin PS Sport II tires with a 200 tread wear rating. The size was 275/35R18 on the front and 315/30R18 on the rear. They beat everyone in the autocross and came in 2nd in the slalom. Here is a link to TCI's website showing the 5 autocross runs the Mary made in the car.
http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/Test_Videos01.cfm
At the end it shows the times. Every run she picked up almost 1 second. Check out the next 4 issues of Super Chevy to see the full results of all 10 cars that competed.

Last edited by David Pozzi; Yesterday at 11:22 PM..


This smells fishy...

'ibuildm' what's your point here with your first post? So what do you build and for whom? If your affiliated with TCI or another shop just come out with it.

Why did David have to edit your post?

--JMarsa

[David Pozzi]

He spelled Pozzi with one "Z" so I fixed it, that's the only editing I did.

I'm not sure who the poster is, but TCI has been talked down a bit in the past as a "not really pro-touring" company. I'm prepared to allow a bit of bragging in this thread since they did so well in the Super Chevy test. They are not a Pro-Touring.com site sponsor so can't do any direct price quoting or selling, but can answer other questions about their products.
David

[JRouche]

This smells fishy...

'ibuildm' what's your point here with your first post? So what do you build and for whom? If your affiliated with TCI or another shop just come out with it.

Why did David have to edit your post?

--JMarsa

Whoa dude!!! Im not sure what you are thinking or implying. "Ibuildm" is a builder of cars and a distributer of car components. As far as I know he doesnt have any affiliation with TCI other than being a distributor. He does distribute their product line along with MANY manufactures products.

The way I saw it he was just passing on some info.

Whats YOUR gripe??? I just dont get your issue???

I have dealt with Tim (lol I may have the name wrong, so many names, not enough brain cells) AKA Ibuildm and never saw any push towards any one manufacture..

Whats your beef???? I think YOU are WAY outta line for saying it was FISHY..... XXXXXX EDITED BY MODERATOR XXXXXXX. You sound like a disgruntled user of another product that should have shown some better results or the manufacture of a product that didnt show so well. Weak XXX EDIT BY MODERATOR XXX shallow comment saying it sounds fishy. What the heck does that mean???? Gimme a break!!! JR

Im gonna add some.... JMarsa, just because it happens to be a guys first post here DOES NOT mean he is out to get you bud. Doesnt automatically mean he is a troll or a dude trying to stir up bad info or sell something. What the heck!!! If you treat every new poster like that sure enough you will surround yourself with whats comfortable for you. But you wont get any new folks adding their insight. Comments like yours tend to keep a new guy from wanting to speak up for fear of being shot down. It hurts the forum as a whole.

[JMarsa]

Whoa dude!!! Im not sure what you are thinking or implying. "Ibuildm" is a builder of cars and a distributer of car components. As far as I know he doesnt have any affiliation with TCI other than being a distributor. He does distribute their product line along with MANY manufactures products.

The way I saw it he was just passing on some info.

Whats YOUR gripe??? I just dont get your issue???

I have dealt with Tim (lol I may have the name wrong, so many names, not enough brain cells) AKA Ibuildm and never saw any push towards any one manufacture..

Whats your beef???? I think YOU are WAY outta line for saying it was FISHY..... You may have to expound on it some or shut the hell up. You sound like a disgruntled user of another product that should have shown some better results or the manufacture of a product that didnt show so well. Weak assed shallow comment saying it sounds fishy. What the heck does that mean???? Gimme a break!!! JR

Im gonna add some.... JMarsa, just because it happens to be a guys first post here DOES NOT mean he is out to get you bud. Doesnt automatically mean he is a troll or a dude trying to stir up bad info or sell something. What the heck!!! If you treat every new poster like that sure enough you will surround yourself with whats comfortable for you. But you wont get any new folks adding their insight. Comments like yours tend to keep a new guy from wanting to speak up for fear of being shot down. It hurts the forum as a whole.

JRouche,

I have no gripe and I think David understands where I'm coming from. In the past there's been posts either from vendors or employees/associates that basically use the board to start advertising without being a sponsor. There was even the thread about posts under different user names from the same IP.

I'm nowhere close to being out of line for questioning the motive of a poster's comments, especially the nature of these where they are raving about a certain product without stating their first hand experience. In the event that they were affiliated with a shop they should come out and say so.

Ibuildm,

If all's on the up and up - welcome to the board.



--JMarsa

[JEFFTATE]

Wow , TCI is coming up !
Thats impressive..

[XLexusTech]

Glad to see TCI coming on strong. Sad that its going to take 4 issues to get any comparisons going. Are the cliff notes results availiable anywhere?

I am more interesed in why so many companies are going torque arm latly? Is it just having options or is the torque are inherently a better choice over the 4 link for real word use..?

[Vegas69]

That's a good question...

[David Pozzi]

JRouche,
I expected some questions on this one since the Original Poster has a post count of 1, that can easily raise some eyebrows. I had to edit out some of your bad language, you are making work for me on this thread. Let's keep this friendly or this whole thread can be locked.
--------------------------
The Modereators are aware of the past "Shilling" tactics by compaines who don't want to pay a sponsor fee but want their products to appear in the forum. Often, a guy will register, then is first or second post will be "Hey! I'm new here but my buddy is getting this awesome chassis built by XXX! Check this out! (link here)". Then the MFR signs up (low post count again) and posts with loads of pics, pricing, and info on his product. That's not fair to our site sponsors.

It is very apparent ibuildum has signed on here to post this thread and has posted similar threads in other forums. I'm giving leeway on this one because TCI has taken heat in the past. Reasons mentioned above.

I expect this thread to NOT be a sales ad with pricing details, but if good tech, pics, or explanation of their product is provided, that's great for our members. I would like to hear how installs went from actual customers.

The torque arm suspension is brand new for the First-Gen Camaro, but I understand TCI has been selling one for Mustangs for a while now. Torque arms are a great way to go if you don't want to cut up your floor. They don't have the anti-squat percentage of a 3 link but are probably very close to what a 4 link does.
David

[ibuildm]

This smells fishy...

'ibuildm' what's your point here with your first post? So what do you build and for whom? If your affiliated with TCI or another shop just come out with it.

Why did David have to edit your post?

--JMarsa

Thanks David for fixing my poor spelling. I apologize for not introducing myself. I am the owner of Tim's Hot Rods in Davenport, Washington. I am one of TCI's biggest volumn dealers. In the past I posted on another site (Latteral-G) about how good the TCI Camaro suspension works and got blasted pretty good. I was told that all TCI makes is street rod suspensions and they were not capable of good handling meaning all show and no go. Sal and the guys at TCI have been working their tails off to show every one that their system works. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows what they accomplished and to watch the next few issues of Super Chevy to see the actual numbers.
Thanks,
Tim

[David Pozzi]

Tim,
Thanks for the introduction of who you are. I found Sal at TCI to be a first-rate guy and last year at the Super Chevy Test he wanted to hear as much input as possible. He seemed very intent on doing better the following year. I have to admit I was one of those guys who probably wasn't giving them the credit they deserve in having a Pro-Touring worthy product. I wasn't talking them down, but in the back of my mind was not rating them all that highly. Sal has been working hard on this over the last year, and it paid off!
David

[ibuildm]

The 4-link works great on the street and strip but the torque arm works better on the track. The torque-arm is well suited for the autocross and slalom because it articulates in the center without binding. I don't claim to be an expert on suspensions but I do know that this works without having to cut up your floor or subframe and is a bolt-in installation. It only requires minitubs and a slight subframe relief on the outside and it will accept a 315MM tire.
Tim

[JRouche]

JRouche,
I expected some questions on this one since the Original Poster has a post count of 1, that can easily raise some eyebrows. I had to edit out some of your bad language, you are making work for me on this thread. Let's keep this friendly or this whole thread can be locked.

Yup, solly for the language. I forget? Did I use the A word. LOL I forget sometimes that even that word can offend. Heck, I hear it all day long on broadcast TV. I just wanted to make it clear I wasnt cursing up a storm :) Just the A word right? I forgot what I said but I know better than to use the S or F word here. I do tend to get a lil carried away and hot under the collar when I see a post that to me is WAY outta line.

Ill try to be civil in the future. Solly for the headache. JR

[David Pozzi]

JR,
No problem! :)

[Vegas69]

Congrats Ibuildm for unknown reasons. Where is the TCI rep? It's one thing to handle through the cones, but another to back your product. You're not selling me with your 5 posts and cocky attitude of someone elses product.

[hotrdblder]

They don't have the anti-squat percentage of a 3 link but are probably very close to what a 4 link does.
David
Not true in every case. although the tq arm does not have the adjustability that a 3 link has, if built properly can have a very good anti squat number
My Jrs tq arm was designed at 60%.

[Steve1968LS2]

Recently TCI competed at the Super Chevy Magazine Suspension and Handling Challenge. Mary Pozzi drove all the cars in the autocross so it made the competition as fair as possible.
TCI's 68 Camaro had their Coilover IFS subframe under the front and their new Torque-arm rear suspension in the rear and included their subframe connectors to tie the front and rear together. The front and rear both had TCI's own billet double adjustable coilovers. They were running Michelin PS Sport II tires with a 200 tread wear rating. The size was 275/35R18 on the front and 315/30R18 on the rear. They beat everyone in the autocross and came in 2nd in the slalom. Here is a link to TCI's website showing the 5 autocross runs the Mary made in the car.
http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/Test_Videos01.cfm
At the end it shows the times. Every run she picked up almost 1 second. Check out the next 4 issues of Super Chevy to see the full results of all 10 cars that competed.

PS2s are 220 treadwear.. just to be clear.

But, this wasn't a competition between all the cars there. Comparing them is like the old "apples and oranges" deal.

Some cars had just a few bolt on parts.. some had the full deal. Some were gigantic wagons while others had never been ran hard art all.

It should also be noted that cars that did great in the handling did scored lower in the street test (comfort) while ones that didn't set records in the handling department did better in the drivability test.

I will say though that the TCI Camaro did kill the autocross though. I think they owe Mary a car... lol

[ibuildm]

Congrats Ibuildm for unknown reasons. Where is the TCI rep? It's one thing to handle through the cones, but another to back your product. You're not selling me with your 5 posts and cocky attitude of someone elses product.

What? I may be new here but go over to Steve's Nova Site and see how many posts I have there. I didn't think I was being cocky but everyone has their own opinion. What do you mean about back your product? TCI stands behind their products better than anyone that I sell parts for.
Tim

[strtlegal]

Is this pretty much the same setup as the CPP Yellow Nova, that Mary drove a year or so back??

Wasnt that a TCI front clip but CPP owned the car?

[ProdigyCustoms]

I heard about this after the challenge and it sounds like the TCI car did kill the autocross. Congratulations, wining the autocross segment is a huge deal and adds a lot of validity to the product line that as David said has been beat up a bit here, including by me.

I know there is another huge surprise coming in the autocross for a car that killed it that had never ever run a autocross before and had 19s and 20s on it! And placed 3rd!

Winning the autocross segment is important, but the overall rating including ride and drive will be most important for me. We probably sell more different subframes and rear suspensions then anyone and I find most of my customers are looking for good handling, but are really focused heavily on ride quality too. In fact, the longer the conversation with a suspension customer goes, 90% of those conversations end up with the customer confessing "ALL OUT" handling is really a second concern to ride quality as most admit they will drive it to the ice cream stand or Power Tour way more then they will race. And when they do race, their racing for fun and not really planning to push the car 100% or even near that ragged edge.The other thing that has become very apparent is most of my customers want it all, and drag racing is a big part of that to. And a torque arm is almost impossible to have dual setting modes.

John Parson's and I spent a couple hours with Kyle and Stacy from DSE yesterday at the Turkey Run discussing suspension systems, ride, handling, and believe it or not, drag racing. And long story short we will be using all DSE in our next special project, and that project will do everything. John and I have talked this to death, thought about every possible brand and system, and have some great conversations with some very trusted experts. And the bottom line, the 4 links are the most versatile, easy to adjust, best riding set ups. While the car with a 4 link WILL NOT handle it's best and drag race it's best in either drag race or handling mode, it will ride great in both settings, and will not completely lose one aspect or the other. And it can always be set up kind of in the middle to do both well with a little give here for a little gain here one way of the other.

One of the other things Kyle and I discussed that has a bearing on this shootout was the fact they run all their cars in street settings. The same settings someone will get when they buy a DSE set up. DSE ran / runs their car with street springs, street camber, sway bars, even tires. I have little doubt if DSE set their car on kill for autocross (heavier springs, 2 degrees camber, thicker sway bar, more sticky tires), and forfeited ride quality and drive ability, they would have performed at or very near the top in the autocross.

Again, congratulations to TCI. I am watching very closely. I would really like to take a ride in the car and play with it.

[ibuildm]

Is this pretty much the same setup as the CPP Yellow Nova, that Mary drove a year or so back??

Wasn't that a TCI front clip but CPP owned the car?


The CPP yellow Nova has TCI's front subframe and rear 4-link. The front is pretty much the same as what is under TCI's 68 Camaro. TCI recently took the 4-link out of their Camaro and installed their new Torque-arm suspension. It made a great improvement as you have seen. They also played with spring rates and shocks. They are using their own aluminum double adjustable coilovers.
Tim

[JRouche]

Congrats Ibuildm for unknown reasons. Where is the TCI rep? It's one thing to handle through the cones, but another to back your product. You're not selling me with your 5 posts and cocky attitude of someone elses product.

Im just sitting here laughing... I may have missed the overall gist of the ORIGINAL post. I just saw it as a nod to TCI for prepping a decent car.

But Ill be honest. I focused more on how Mary was chosen to be the hot foot to conduct the test. THAT IMO is a major accomplishment for ANYONE of our members here.

Can anyone one here, including you vegas69 claim that title??? Hot head does not count. Heck, I can qualify for that title. LOL

Im still focusing on the superb driving Mary did. The cars?? Well, ok, they are what they are. Some various car parts. I have my own liking for car parts. Prolly doesnt include any of the parts that were in those cars.

But Im proud as hell to see one of our own as the hot foot to test them out. Shows some major trust and confidence in her abilities..

Guess I missed the boat on the theme for the post. I took it for an atta boy (ok, girl) to one of our members for being selected to drive the cars. If it were ME that got picked to do the drive I would be beaming with joy. No matter what car preformed differently than the other.

So Ill say it again. Hats off to you Mary. Smile large!!!! I know you loved the entire thing...... JR

[ProdigyCustoms]

Mary is the best, and a sweetheart to boot!

[novanutcase]

So that's what Evans been crowing about for the last two years.....

Congrats TCI!!

John

[NOGO]

Congrats to the folks at TCI- their Camaro performed great! It was exciting to see all the cars run through the events, especially on the autocross. I also loved watching the 57 wagon on the slalom with its crew on board!

[Steve1968LS2]

Mary is the best, and a sweetheart to boot!

And I got a big gold star at work for bringing her aboard.. I just hopes she remembers me when she's rich and famous... ;)

[David Pozzi]

I think the good news is, there are a lot of choices for us these days, and every company at the Super Chevy deal had a great car and they are highly interested in the Pro-Touring market segment.

Mary was an ideal choice for this because she's a very precise driver and she can keep her mouth shut!
David

[NOGO]

Mary was an ideal choice for this because she's a very precise driver and she can keep her mouth shut!
David

I disagree...She gave tremendous feedback that is very valuable (no mouth shut that I experienced)!

[David Pozzi]

I disagree...She gave tremendous feedback that is very valuable (no mouth shut that I experienced)!

What I meant was, Mary drove all those cars but was asked to not talk about the results prior to Publication.
David

[silver69camaro]

The 4-link works great on the street and strip but the torque arm works better on the track. The torque-arm is well suited for the autocross and slalom because it articulates in the center without binding.

Neither does a properly designed four-link/bar!

[NOGO]

What I meant was, Mary drove all those cars but was asked to not talk about the results prior to Publication.
David

I guess I read in to that one a bit to much! It is difficult to keep all the insider info to yourself for nearly 3 months!

[JRouche]

Neither does a properly designed four-link/bar!

Amen!!! Ive got my four link down to no bind at all with 5* of rotation actually more but 5* is my reference point, thats when the roll bar kicks in with its designed rate, and I dont expect to be rolling the car over much past that.. Roll bar disconnected and all my new QA1 rod ends in place (did the swap this weekend) the rear end is silky smooth past 7*. Past 7* it starts to lift the other tire slightly, and that only rear end and tire weight. But because they are rod ends, not bushed ends I see that as the limit. Its pulling the opposite tire up for a reason, I think its the rod ends stopping. So I need to keep the roll down to 7* no matter what. Otherwise Im sure it will loosen the jamb nuts. Already had that with the bushed rod ends. But they bound up way before 7*. JR

Oh, and if I need more than 7* of body roll then I need to put some Jonny Joints in and some big mud tires cause I built the car for the wrong purpose LOL

[MoparCar]

John Parson's and I spent a couple hours with Kyle and Stacy from DSE yesterday at the Turkey Run discussing suspension systems, ride, handling, and believe it or not, drag racing. And long story short we will be using all DSE in our next special project, and that project will do everything. John and I have talked this to death, thought about every possible brand and system, and have some great conversations with some very trusted experts. And the bottom line, the 4 links are the most versatile, easy to adjust, best riding set ups. While the car with a 4 link WILL NOT handle it's best and drag race it's best in either drag race or handling mode, it will ride great in both settings, and will not completely lose one aspect or the other. And it can always be set up kind of in the middle to do both well with a little give here for a little gain here one way of the other.

One of the other things Kyle and I discussed that has a bearing on this shootout was the fact they run all their cars in street settings. The same settings someone will get when they buy a DSE set up. DSE ran / runs their car with street springs, street camber, sway bars, even tires. I have little doubt if DSE set their car on kill for autocross (heavier springs, 2 degrees camber, thicker sway bar, more sticky tires), and forfeited ride quality and drive ability, they would have performed at or very near the top in the autocross.



Frank,
When you are referring to the 4-link above and of course DSE I'm assuming you are talking about a true parallel 4-link like DSEs and not a converging/canted 4-link/bar? Is this correct?

Thanks-I appreciate your experience.
Wes

[slow4dr]

Jason @ TCI here


There are a lot of great companies making some very cool parts for these classic cars we love so dearly. We have had a great time at these events with Speedtech, DSE, Alston, Morrison and all the rest, they are a great bunch, which shows in the quality products they produce.

TCI put a package together that was previously untested and all we've done is shown that it works. We don't want or have any need to diminish any other companies accomplisments to sell our product. This Torque Arm suspension is just another offering for the guy that is working hard for his dollars. We feel we give great value for the dollars that we charge. We make great, user friendly bolt on parts that work as seen by these results.

The TCI Camaro had not been fired for 6 months prior to this event and was finished a mere 48 hours beforehand. The wheel sizes, tire sizes, spring rates, shocks, sway bars, rear suspension and engine had never been tested. We had no time to sort out any possible chassis tuning issues or setbacks that can come up when making this many changes. With some feedback from the Pozzi's, Mr. Rupp, and Nick Licata we were able to get a very good starter tune. After the event we were able to measure all the data and we discovered that softer springs and less negative camber would have helped the car perform better. We have dropped spring rates nearly 50 lbs out of the front and 75 lbs out of the back which definitely helped ride quality. These changes will be directly reflected in production units as we sell what we test.

There are plenty of changes we would have made had we had more time to tune. Expect to see TCI at more events in 2010. Thanks to everyone who supports Total Cost Involved.

[GrabberGT]

Glad to see the TCI Torque Arm getting a good review. I purchased mine from Tim (ibuildm) last spring and hope to have it installed by this spring. I purchased the Mustang kit for my Maverick. Its going to take some modifications to make it work but hopefully the changes will be minimal and the suspension will perform as designed.

[blown9746]

Which month was the main article in and what are the subsequent issues with the full tests?

[slow4dr]

Which month was the main article in and what are the subsequent issues with the full tests?

The January 2010 issue covers a brief tutorial on each car, how the tests are run as well as full tests on the Ridetech Camaro and CPP Nova. The February issue has full tests on the Global West Camaro and the DSE Chevelle. The March issue has the full tests on the Edelbrock Chevelle and the Newman Car Creations '57 210 Wagon. There are 4 cars and companies left to test.(Speedtech, Roadster Shop, Total Cost Involved, and Hotchkis) I am not sure which issue the other three remaining cars will be broken down in but I know that our car will be in the May issue available on news stands March 25th.

[slow4dr]

Super Chevy pulled the trigger on the article placement on their website early so here it is.

TCI 1968 Chevy Camaro New Generation Suspension - Super Chevy Magazine (http://www.superchevy.com/features/camaro/sucp_1005_tci_68_camaro_new_gen_suspension/index.html)


The full article

Many things look good on paper, but when applied to the real world can be abysmal failures. A real world litmus test always exposes the hidden flaws that can turn a great idea into disastrous application.
TCI Engineering has been designing automotive frames and suspension parts for 35 years, starting with Model A Ford frames for street rod builders back in 1974. Over the years, TCI's product line has expanded to include suspension upgrade parts for late model cars, from control arms to subframes. Fortunately for those in the Chevy hobby, TCI has done extensive testing to ensure its products deliver in the real world.

In 2005, a well-worn '68 Camaro was bought to help design and prove TCI's first-gen Camaro high-performance suspension parts and subframe designs that were on the drawing board. TCI knew that anything it developed would need to undergo extensive and rigorous track testing. Fast-forward to August '09 and this Camaro carried the TCI battle flag into the second-annual Super Chevy Suspension & Handling Challenge.
First up was a complete disassembly of the Camaro. The 350 had water in the oil, so it saw a complete rebuild to 355 cubes with a Scat crank and H-beam rods swinging SRP pistons. A set of Dart Pro 1 heads were installed with a full Comp Cams solid roller valvetrain, Edelbrock intake, and Holley 750 HP mechanical secondary carb with Holley fuel pump and regulator. A Toy Shop-built 700R4 with 3,000 stall converter was bolted to the back for forward motivation.

On the suspension side, the first thing was installing TCI's bolt-in front subframe assembly. It consists of TCI's tubular control arms, 2-inch drop spindles, TCI's own adjustable coilover shocks and 1-inch diameter front sway bar. Brakes are Wilwood Superlite six-piston calipers with 13-inch rotors. Everything bolts to a mandrel-bent, double-rail frame that features an adjustable transmission crossmember so you can fit any trans behind the engine of your choice. Even better is that the whole subframe assembly bolts right to a first-generation Camaro without modifications.
Out back, the Camaro features TCI's new Torque Arm 3-Link bolt-in kit with driveshaft. The new kit features a slider on the front arm that lets it slide front-to-rear and rotates during articulation of the suspension. This allows the handling to be controlled by the coilover shocks and rear sway bar without any binding issues. The only welding required on the kit is the axle housing, Panhard bar and sway bar brackets. The kit is connected to a Currie F-9 9-inch rear with 4.11 gears, 31-spline axles, and True Trac Posi unit. Wilwood Superlite four-piston calipers and 13-inch rotors handle braking duties in the rear. Overall, the torque arm suspension allows for a lower stance but with better rear end control and increased handling ability.

To stuff as much rear tire as possible underneath the Camaro, the stock wheelhouses were cut and modified using a set of Classic Industries replacement stock inner wheelhouses. That provided enough space to stuff a Michelin Pilot Sport 2 315/35ZR18 tire wrapped around a Boze Mesh wheel so the 355 has plenty of rubber to send horsepower to.
Driver's Impression - On the Autocross Course My first autocross run had me thinking this Camaro's suspension was a bit too stiff, but each trip through the cones allowed me to gain confidence and the overall times showed it. While it will most likely get slammed for not being a comfy street ride, I loved every part of my job for the autocross and realized that the car has an extremely high tolerance for pressure. You want to go faster, just push the car more and with late-model F-bodies being so softly sprung, this is almost impossible. I'll even go so far and say I've never driven a better handling first-gen Camaro ever.

The TCI Camaro had excellent power and the ability to smoothly lay it down. The brakes were awesome for manual brakes; I had no problem slowing this car down anytime or anywhere and the front/rear proportioning was perfect. The car had good, responsive turn-in; the entry and offset slaloms were very easy to negotiate. It was "point and shoot" for the crossover to the end sweeper and I could trail brake into almost any corner and control the speed and degree of loose. After hard braking for the end sweeper, I lost power steering and it became a battle of wills to get over the hump. Discussion ensued ... Me: "Oh, crap!!!", Camaro: "Suckerrrr ...", Me: "Like HELL ... one of us has to be the car and YOU'RE IT!!! Turn!" And magically, power steering and a happy camper driver returned to play. Each run improved on the one before it and if I remember correctly, the TCI Camaro posted the quickest autocross time of the day.
The power transitions leading towards the finish were so easy for this car. Off a few inches from an apex? Just move the car over and get back on line (mind you, this is happening while sliding sideways at about 60-plus mph). Looking ahead was a cinch and I never once felt behind or late to the next turn. All parts work well within the confines of the chassis and this car just reeks of compliance when driven fast. Overall, I had some stellar autocross runs with the TCI Camaro, but would recommend two changes. One, soften the springs as in present form, the car is suited for one job ... autocross or slalom. Dropping the spring rates while keeping the ride height wouldn't hurt the handling but would really improve street manners and ride. And, like the majority of the other tested cars, get a larger diameter steering wheel. -Mary Pozzi

Driver's Impression - On the Street Contrary to Mary's concern, I actually thought the ride was decent on the street. If TCI can make it ride even better with no loss of handling prowess, that's great but it wasn't objectionable the way it was. My quote from the driver's log: "Firmer than most of the other cars here, but not obnoxious."
Anyone who does a lot of autocrossing or open-track events will be thrilled with the performance these parts deliver. Yes, there was some sacrifice in ride quality, but it wasn't like driving a floor jack. It was quite livable, if not on the more extreme side compared to the other entries.

My most pressing concern on the street was the lack of interior trimmings (carpet, etc.), which were installed after our track day. It was both loud and hot inside and the strip-oriented shifter on the automatic made me think of it as a drag car that handled really, really well. The turning radius was very tight and the steering, though light, was accurate.
It's obvious that TCI spent a good deal of time developing its suspension and handling parts for the first-gen. In addition to its stellar autocross times (nearly two seconds quicker than a stock '10 Camaro SS), it was over three mph faster through the slalom than the new F-body and it pulled 0.92g on the skidpad. Bada-bing! It just blew the fifth-gen away from a performance standpoint. - Jim Campisano

TCI '68 Camaro Specs Engine Type: Gen I small-block Block: GM iron block 355 displacement Heads: AFR 200 Fuel Delivery: Holley 750 HP mechanical secondary carb, Holley fuel pump and regulator, Edelbrock Intake
Drivetrain
Transmission: Toy Shop built 700R4 Rearend: Currie 9-inch

Chassis Suspension
Steering: Power rack and pinion
Front Suspension: TCI Engineering Camaro coilover bolt-in subframe
Spindles: TCI Engineering 2-inch drop
Front Shocks: TCI Engineering All American Double Adjustable Coilovers with 450-pound spring rate
Front Control Arms: TCI Engineering tubular
Front Sway bar: TCI Engineering 1-inch front anti-sway bar
Rear Suspension: TCI Engineering Torque Arm Bolt-In Kit with driveshaft loop
Rear Shocks: TCI Engineering All American Double Adjustable Coilovers with 325-pound spring rate
Rear Sway bar: TCI Engineering 1-inch rear anti-sway bar Front Brakes: Wilwood 6-piston Superlite calipers with Wilwood 13-inch rotors
Rear Brakes: Wilwood 4-piston Superlite calipers with Wilwood 13-inch rotors

[69c4x11]

Herehttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/100_4410-1.jpg is their Pro-touring subframe in mock up on my nova.

[wickdss]

Am I understanding this correctly. It will only fit a 315 tire and no more? Or is that just what they used?


Thanks
Troy

[onechev]

thats what they use, i seen there stuff uesd with dse tubs and 335 on 3-4 cars being built

[TCI Engineering]

Am I understanding this correctly. It will only fit a 315 tire and no more? Or is that just what they used?


Thanks
Troy


What the last guy said.......We used stock replacement tubs moved over to the stock rail. With DSE tubs and the frame notched you can fit a 335 in there.

-J

[wickdss]

What the last guy said.......We used a stock replacement tubs moved over to the stock rail. With a DSE tubs and the frame notched you can fit a 335 in there.

-J


Thank you, that was exactly what I was looking for.


Troy

[wickdss]

One other question. In all the install pics the system is fitted to a aftermarket sub and fits very nicely. Are there any pics of it installed with a stock sub, and how does it fit?

Troy

[TCI Engineering]

One other question. In all the install pics the system is fitted to a aftermarket sub and fits very nicely. Are there any pics of it installed with a stock sub, and how does it fit?

Troy


We make two different subframe connectors, one for our front clip and one for a stock front clip due to the different attachment brackets. I don't have a seperate install manual for a stock clip but I'll see if I can get some pics of each corresponding bracket so you can see the difference.

-J

[wickdss]

We make two different subframe connectors, one for our front clip and one for a stock front clip due to the different attachment brackets. I don't have a seperate install manual for a stock clip but I'll see if I can get some pics of each corresponding bracket so you can see the difference.

-J


Thanks again. I would love to see pics!


Troy

[1BAGTO]

Impressive!

[TCI Engineering]

Thanks again. I would love to see pics!


Troy


Here ya go Troy. The one on the right is for our clip, the one on the left is for a stock clip. They both use the same subframe connector tube and attach very similarly with through bolts.

-J

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/101_4352-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/101_4353-1.jpg

[wickdss]

Here ya go Troy. The one on the right is for our clip, the one on the left is for a stock clip. They both use the same subframe connector tube and attach very similarly with through bolts.

-J

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/101_4352-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/06/101_4353-1.jpg



Nice, thank you for taking the time to show the difference.


Troy

[HUSTLESTUFF]

Jason, I spoke with someone at Pleasanton this past weekend about the second gen kit you guys are about to start. Is there any chance to make a ring that bolts to a 12 bolt rear to mount the pinion supports and torque arm tabs? I will more than likely end up with your kit, but welding to cast iron is outside my box and can't spend the $$$$ on a 9" since I just put a grand in my 12 bolt. Just an idea before you go into planning to see if it's possible. Mike

[TCI Engineering]

Jason, I spoke with someone at Pleasanton this past weekend about the second gen kit you guys are about to start. Is there any chance to make a ring that bolts to a 12 bolt rear to mount the pinion supports and torque arm tabs? I will more than likely end up with your kit, but welding to cast iron is outside my box and can't spend the $$$$ on a 9" since I just put a grand in my 12 bolt. Just an idea before you go into planning to see if it's possible. Mike

We have to finish up some details on the early Nova torque Arm kit before we can move on to the 2nd Gen Camaro development. At this point we are not opposed to developing new product especially if it makes integrating these parts onto more customer's cars. It only makes sense to make the T/A as universal as we can and I am trulyhoping that will be the case in the future. I am personally interested in doing exactly what you are asking for so I am pushing the powers that be to do pull the trigger. Only time will tell but I am definitely on your side.

-J

[HUSTLESTUFF]

Thanks, just seems like most of the 2nd gen guys I've met run a 12 bolt, so it would make your conversion much more appealing.
Mike