Suspension Gurus... Thoughts? Potential?

[cheapthrillz]

You can probably tell what this frame is from if you look at my sig, but I was wondering what you guys thoughts are. From the pictures, do you see any good? Bad? I will be doing the suspension as my next project and was wondering what you guys thought about the stock suspension design. This is not my frame, but it looks exactly like this.

Are there any problem areas that need to be confronted? I was thinking of making my own links for the back after doing all of the calculations. I have no clue what to do up front though.

Rear:
Stock 3 link w/ panhard
Coil springs with exterior shocks (shocks angled in)
No rear swaybar
Fully boxed frame

Front:
Double wishbone with strut rods
Swaybar
Coils with interior located shocks


I'm still learning suspensions and was hoping you guys could see some things from the picture that need to be addressed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/wcframe1-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/wcframe2-1.jpg

[Bjkadron]

Torsion bars would be cool! Are you thinking about the splined ones like they use in sprint cars or something else? This is off the galaxie right? The three link should be pretty much on the right track(my guess..) you'll want to do something with the panhard bar though. The front strut rods bind on almost everything.. Look into some balljoint types.. And I have absolutely no clue what the geometry is on these things.
does this help?

[cheapthrillz]

So far that is what I was thinking. By torsion bars I meant strut rods. I was thinking to make sure that the geometry of the back was right and maybe add a watts link.... I was just wondering what everybody elses opinions were....

[Rhino]

By making sure the geometry is right, what do you mean? What would your goals for the car be? What will your final ride height be?

I'm no ford expert by any means, although I rarely meet a stamped steel arm that I like. I'd probably want to replace them. I'd also take the opportunity to modify the geometry to fit my liking.
The nice thing about having a stock 3 link is that the car is already set up for this suspension type. You can drastically alter the way the suspension handles by simply modifying the existing mount points.

[silver69camaro]

While it may be a three link, the geometry is hardly desireable. IC location is poor and provides little exit bite. If it were me, I'd chop the front end off and graft on one of our C6 front clips. The rear could be made to work OK, but you'd change all the existing mounting points like Rhino said.

[formula]

hadn't thought about just chopping the frame and grafting in another front sub--interesting...

I'm helping JC figure out the best course of action on this, and I like the idea of grafting on an alternative suspension if it could be made to work--Our semi-plan was to work with the current frame and fab our own suspension pieces, but I was very concerned about the safety of making our own parts, as our ambition is high but tools are minimal. Last thing I want is for a home-welded part in such a critical area to fail at the wrong time.

The only problem with a sub swap is, we've already got brakes planned out with tobin/kore3 based on the factory front spindles. Would suck to scrap all of tobin's hard work getting c5's onto the ford spindles.

I'm working hard to get trained up in simpack to the point where we can model and then adjust the mounting points on the rear 3-link, but I am still learning about what/where things need to be to optimize the system's performance. We both know that links are going to have to be moved/lengthened, I am just still learning exactly how far we need to go.

I need to get some books!!

[formula]

I don't want to speak for JC too much, but the goals for the car he's expressed to me are for a function-first street brawler that we can beat on--and hard--on the street, then drive to the autocross/road course and continue to beat on. That being said, street ride and handling are still high-priority, as we are pretty far from any good road course to make regular trips.

Ride height will be low, but not slammed. He and I are going back and forth on whether air ride or traditional springs will be optimal. We're both going nuts over airrides new selectable-firmness shocks, but since they are offered in a shock-only or coilover configuration, the choice between remains.

[cheapthrillz]

I don't want to speak for JC too much, but the goals for the car he's expressed to me are for a function-first street brawler that we can beat on--and hard--on the street, then drive to the autocross/road course and continue to beat on. That being said, street ride and handling are still high-priority, as we are pretty far from any good road course to make regular trips.

Ride height will be low, but not slammed. He and I are going back and forth on whether air ride or traditional springs will be optimal. We're both going nuts over airrides new selectable-firmness shocks, but since they are offered in a shock-only or coilover configuration, the choice between remains.

Wes hit the nail on the head...

[MonzaRacer]

For me I would rebuild the rear with tubular arms and johnny joints, add in one of the watts links one of the suppliers just dropped.
Add in CoolRide in the rear with double adjustable shocks and your rear is done, simple remounting to the rear suspension points will make it hook ok, and Air ride hooks great even with bad geometry.
In front swap in tubular control arms, say SC&C made SPC with adjustments in them and using them to fix any issues with camber issues and caster issues. Since your not too worried about modifications either a fast rack or a faster power steering box might possibly be had from Lee.
My personal opinion would be double adjustable ShockWaves in front.
Add in a couple of extra cross members, box the frame.
Heck I do believe a late 80s/early 90s rear truck swaybar will fit right in there.
Not too hard to imagine, heck I can see most of it now.
Even in just a pic.

[cheapthrillz]

For me I would rebuild the rear with tubular arms and johnny joints, add in one of the watts links one of the suppliers just dropped.
Add in CoolRide in the rear with double adjustable shocks and your rear is done, simple remounting to the rear suspension points will make it hook ok, and Air ride hooks great even with bad geometry.
In front swap in tubular control arms, say SC&C made SPC with adjustments in them and using them to fix any issues with camber issues and caster issues. Since your not too worried about modifications either a fast rack or a faster power steering box might possibly be had from Lee.
My personal opinion would be double adjustable ShockWaves in front.
Add in a couple of extra cross members, box the frame.
Heck I do believe a late 80s/early 90s rear truck swaybar will fit right in there.
Not too hard to imagine, heck I can see most of it now.
Even in just a pic.

Yea, I can see a lot of it too! The main reason I started this thread was to see if anyone recognized any MAJOR issues that needed to be corrected.

I will definitely be going with tubular links and JJ's in the back after I set up the rear suspension using Shope's website. You've told me time after time to go with air ride, but I'm still looking into and trying to figure out exactly what I want from the car.

With the front, I would like to keep the stock spindles because Tobin is building my brakes off of those spindles. I have no problem getting adjustable/tubular arms to correct geometry if needed, but I wouldn't feel comfortable building them myself.

[JRouche]

Yeah, too bad you worked up the brakes before finalizing the suspension. Cause now you are kinda stuck. I do the same damm thing. If I could start fresh I would go with an entire C6 clip. Alot of bennys to be had there. JR

[cheapthrillz]

Yeah, too bad you worked up the brakes before finalizing the suspension. Cause now you are kinda stuck. I do the same damm thing. If I could start fresh I would go with an entire C6 clip. Alot of bennys to be had there. JR

I did it that way because my budget is really not large enough right now to go with a custom frame. I was going to run the stock frame because it is one of the best factory frames from that automotive era, and I was just going to beef it up with some chassis stiffening and modify/build my own suspension that works well. Let's face it, if I were building a car that I thought I could take out and whoop any F-body/mustang/corvette, I WOULD NOT have started with a 4000lb Galaxie. The fact is, I love this car and it is a family heirloom that needs some TLC.

The goal for the car is to be a well built "muscle car" that is fun to drive and could hold its own at a roadcourse/auto-x event. Not necessarily win, but make people say, "Damn did you see that boat!? It was pretty damn fast!"

The main reason for building this car is to get it back on the road and drive it. It has been a daily driver since '65 up until the last few years when the brakes went kaput. I'm doing the brakes first so that I can get the car back on the road. I was hoping to keep the car on the road as much as possible during the build so that I can get some use out of it while I'm building it one system at a time.

I figure the suspension couldn't be TOO bad since they used it in NASCAR for years....

[MonzaRacer]

My thoughts are using 3/16 plate to box frame, again maybe a couple of new 2x3x0.125 cross members for torsional stability.
Again the reason for AIr ride is its ability to turn an other wise poor handling car into a much better handling, since SOME modifications ok with you, heck you could even use CoolRide all around and remount the shocks in front, Since you are looking for driving, rather than dead on race piece trust me, the ability to do it reasonable IS out there, if you can believe this I used an A6 GM AC compressor on my 78 C10, filled a 5 gallon tank in about 2 minutes or less, rigged to a pressure switch (hobbs) and a relay. The compressor lasted almost 3 yrs till clutch gave up the ghost.
I now am using the York/Tecumseh type compressor.
I also had the parts and have a ball valve and hose in back of bed for handy airing up of tires and such.
Honestly I believe there are several companies making lower tubular arms for that body style, the upper would be easy to reproduce for Markus at SC&C.
Poly bushings in radius rods, Delrin or del-alum or spherical joints in others, I dont see any issues with keeping the stock spindles, I have seen the same cars suspension modded by swapping the spindles right to left, then remount the radius rods to the rear, this made moding to front steer much easier.

[formula]

If you can help us find lower a-arms for this car, you win the prize, sir!

JC and I both have scoured the net for 65-67 galaxie suspension parts and have come up virtually empty. 64-earlier and 68-later both use different setups.

Interesting idea turning around the spindles too.

[cheapthrillz]

Wow, yea! Swapping the spindles will definitely be looked into.... I was hoping to modify a R&P to fit the rear-steer, but doing it to fit front-steer may be easier. At least it will keep some more options open. I would have to relocate the swaybar though. The stock motor has a front sump oil pan, and I'm not sure what motor I will be going with at this time, but that could pose some problems too.

The frame is already boxed and I was just thinking I could go back and seam weld the entire thing and add tubular or square tube chassis stiffening to my liking.

I have yet to get in touch with Marcus, but do they make custom arms for any application? I would think that they would need to have the car on-hand to get it perfect, but they could probably do it with calculations that I give them...

Maybe I need to be looking for another rolling chassis that is in good shape that I can build, and just transfer the body from my car to that one....

I just don't have the money to do a C6 clip swap right now, and with the economy the way it is (and the direction it seems to be heading) I don't want to get myself into a pickle.

All of these are great thoughts so far guys! You all have come up with some things that I would have never thought of doing. Please keep the ideas coming.

I just get bummed out that there is no aftermarket support for these cars, but they're so well set up that it shouldn't be that way...

[JRouche]

The goal for the car is to be a well built "muscle car" that is fun to drive and could hold its own at a roadcourse/auto-x event. Not necessarily win, but make people say, "Damn did you see that boat!? It was pretty damn fast!"

Oh yeah, Im ALL on board with that. I love the idea of a sleeper. Folks see it and say wow, nice looking car. Then they see it handle and they say WOW, I gotta see what the heck he has done.

I totally get the budget deal too. My car has been a build for 15+ years now and it started as just a brake upgrade. The four wheel drums were kinda scary.

So as time went on more income came for the car. So I added a lil here and there. Im DONE messing with the frame work and suspension. I have to drive this thing some day. Im in all metal for the interior and no paint. So its to the painter next then upholstery then the gas station for a full tank and some driving. JR

[cheapthrillz]

Oh yeah, Im ALL on board with that. I love the idea of a sleeper. Folks see it and say wow, nice looking car. Then they see it handle and they say WOW, I gotta see what the heck he has done.

I totally get the budget deal too. My car has been a build for 15+ years now and it started as just a brake upgrade. The four wheel drums were kinda scary.

So as time went on more income came for the car. So I added a lil here and there. Im DONE messing with the frame work and suspension. I have to drive this thing some day. Im in all metal for the interior and no paint. So its to the painter next then upholstery then the gas station for a full tank and some driving. JR

JR, there are two DIY cars on this site that I am modeling my rear suspension after.... your Nova and LowbuckX's. I think both of you guys took the right approach, so any advice you can offer will be greatly appreciated!

Your car started as a brake upgrade and so is mine... The 4 wheel drums were too dangerous and after a while, I would eventually have killed someone. They just didn't work hardly at all, so I'm fixing them first and foremost. I know that puts a hindrance on my suspension build, but I'm doing it this way so that I can keep the car on the road as I mod it. Next will be suspension. Then comes the drivetrain. After all of that is the way I want it, the body work/repaint will finish up the project. I think I will intermingle the interior into it slowly, along the way.

I feel like having the car on the road as much as possible during the build will 1) Make it more useable day to day and 2) Make it easer to notice deficiancies in my plan before the car is completed.

[JRouche]

JR, there are two DIY cars on this site that I am modeling my rear suspension after.... your Nova and LowbuckX's. I think both of you guys took the right approach, so any advice you can offer will be greatly appreciated!

Your car started as a brake upgrade and so is mine... The 4 wheel drums were too dangerous and after a while, I would eventually have killed someone.

Thanks.. You have the right idea. Safety issues first so you can still drive the car during the whole process. I wished for my case I had a lil more focus at the beginning. Had an idea of where I really wanted to end up. Thats where you are heads and shoulders ahead. You are planning. Keep up the good work!!! JR

[cheapthrillz]

I'm thinking about trying to adapt the ends of these to fit on my strut rods..... I think it's doable and should relieve some of the binding issues.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/STRD05SVH_AT-1.jpg

[cheapthrillz]

I spoke with Marcus @ SC&C the other day. He said the front geometry on these cars wasn't too bad. He had thought about making some upper arms, so I might end up sending one of my uppers to him. He also said that I could send my rear links off and they would make me some CurrecTrac links and they would put them in their catalog.....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Bryce]

thats cool. There isnt much weight savings on the aluminum arms. compared to a DOM tube with inserts welded on the ends and rod ends.
But that is cool he will make you some UCAs.

[cheapthrillz]

thats cool. There isnt much weight savings on the aluminum arms. compared to a DOM tube with inserts welded on the ends and rod ends.
But that is cool he will make you some UCAs.

I know there's not much of an advantage from the aluminum, but they do look trick as hell. It's either that, or I will make them myself.... we will have to check the prices first though. I just have to get away from the stock rubber bushings.

[Bryce]

trick is right!! I thought about using something similar on my 3link build. but decided on simple and cheaper.

[cheapthrillz]

....simple and cheaper.

This may be what I go with.... lol