roll cage setup?

[Monte71]

ive decided to build my car too go fast and have as much safety as possible.so i decided to take the rear seats out and mount in a roll CAGE through out the body .i just have a few questions.can i put this kind of bracing in.like in the trunk,on the body support(axle travel area)and in the back seat area with as much bracing as possible?what are good tips for making this cage as strong as possible without having very many(if any)weak spots?also i was wondering,since this is a street car.i was wondering if i should put a fire suppression system in.this cars interior will most likely be wrapped in leather(seats,dash,bars,etc)when/if i get in an accident would this be a good precaution or a bad one?and where should the nozzles be located?please help

[NOT A TA]

The first thing you should do is go to the general tech and safety equipment section and read the sticky thread at the top about roll cages and also read this thread I wrote when doing a safety upgrade in my car by installing a cage, seats, harnesses and fire systems. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48151 Then post specific questions you might have in the same section so the folks who can give you good answers reply.

[Damn True]

I'm guessing by your handle that this is for a Monte Carlo? The downside there is that you won't exactly have a wide array of examples to view as a starting point.

I'd second John's suggestions above and add to that the following:

- Read through the cage requirements section in the SCCA rulebook.
- Find a reputable cage builder in your area. Look for someone who has built cages for SCCA/NASA competition for a number of different types of cars. Particularly CMC, AI and AIX (big heavy 2-door cars) and perhaps someone who has built for Spec-E30 (also a 2-door "box".). You could consider a circle track builder as well, but I would temper anything they might tell you by bouncing those ideas off a road-race builder as well.
- Avoid mail-order, pre-cut units. Their main focus is on ease of installation and honestly, anything of this type you'd find for your car is likely to be a drag oriented cage which may not provide the chassis stiffening you'd see in a road-race designed unit.

[Monte71]

I'm guessing by your handle that this is for a Monte Carlo? The downside there is that you won't exactly have a wide array of examples to view as a starting point.

I'd second John's suggestions above and add to that the following:

- Read through the cage requirements section in the SCCA rulebook.
- Find a reputable cage builder in your area. Look for someone who has built cages for SCCA/NASA competition for a number of different types of cars. Particularly CMC, AI and AIX (big heavy 2-door cars) and perhaps someone who has built for Spec-E30 (also a 2-door "box".). You could consider a circle track builder as well, but I would temper anything they might tell you by bouncing those ideas off a road-race builder as well.
- Avoid mail-order, pre-cut units. Their main focus is on ease of installation and honestly, anything of this type you'd find for your car is likely to be a drag oriented cage which may not provide the chassis stiffening you'd see in a road-race designed unit.


yes this is a monte carlo.everyone around my neck of the woods doesnt build road race cars,only drag cars.all the guys that road race at the local track(that i have talked too)do it them selfs.is building a road race cage alot different(er?)than a drag cage?is there more bracing?im pretty new too this whole roadrace idea.

[Damn True]

Where are you?

[Twentyover]

No real difference in assembly technology, maybe just tube sizes and details. There can be as much bracing as you want.

On a Monte, remember you'll need to punch through the floor down to the frame rail, or use a spacer block to engage the frame into you cage. Don't know of anyone who suggests a welded pad like the uni's use for a body/frame.

The deal is, and i may be at odds with others here, is do as much as you want the cage to do. Remember you're not building a tube frame car, so all the stuff the circle track guys use, except for bombers, may not be relevant.

As i usually do, I'll suggest going to the SCCA GCR's section 9 and appendices G & H. Let them tell you what the minimum is for what you want. you can always add tubes latter as you get more serious.

One area I think I disagree a litttle with True is that CMC and AIX cars are pretty much uni's, not body frame, so feed that into the mix.

Take the headliner out and have the installer push the hoop to the extents of the roof. No reason to shorten a hopp 2" to keep a headliner in. If you need a headliner, add it latter and work around the hoop.

If a 6 point is planned, have the builder follow the A pillar through the dash (OK, just a preferance), don't stick it aft of the IP, it will just become a PITA on ingress/egress.

Cages can be as simple or as complex as you decide.



Think the first thing to define is the real function of the car. Track only? Street/open track/autox? These features will be inputs into determining the level of complexity you want to put into the cage, and the degree of convenience you're willing to sacrifice for a incremental protection and stiiffness.

[Damn True]

Suggested the CMC, AI and AIX as a basic template based on similarity in size and weight and in cockpit configuration (large 2 door 2+2). W/O looking at sec 9 I would guess that the material parameters would be very close. The reason I brought it up is that one would want to make sure the material suggested for use by a shop is appropriate for the application based on requirements for a similar car. Something of a qualifying question for a potential builder ya know? If he suggests material appropriate for an RX-7 to use in your Monte, you know to move to the next shop.

You are absolutely right in that the interface between the cage and the substrate (chassis in the case of the OP's Monte) would be very very different than in a unibody tub.

Again, right on in terms of taking the a-pillar bar through the dash. Your kneecaps will thank you.

[Monte71]

im located in colorado springs colorado and i was planning on a 12 point roll cage.

[Damn True]

Google - "SCCA_Colorado"

Brought me to the CO region's website. From that site I grabbed the following list of SCCA tech inspectors. I'd start by talking with these guys. Tell them what you have in mind (HPDE I gather) and see whom they'd recommend to assist you in developing an appropriate set of safety systems for your car.

Bob Maples • Parker/Elizabeth, CO • 303 979-0577 L, A
David Muramoto • Aurora, CO • 303 752-9777 A
Mike Neudeck • Littleton, CO • 303 933-7646 A
Charlie Seffrood • Colorado Springs • 719 574-7342 L, A
Eurosport Ltd Racing • Rich Dahl • Brighton, CO • 303 375-9775 A
Front Range Motorsports • JD McDermott and David Caswell • Englewood, CO • 303 781-4059 L, A
Jim Christian Racing • Jim Christian Boulder, CO • 303 499-5665 L, A
LaRue Motorsports • Mary LaRue and Ray LaRue • Erie, CO • 303 665-4923 A
Rallye/Sport • Jeff Winter • Westminster, CO • 303 427-0510 L, A
Slipstream • Bill Pichardo and Ken Pike • Boulder, CO • 303 449-9843 L, A
Surface Exploration • Chris Doyle • Arvada, CO • 303 940-1500 A

[NOT A TA]

True and Greg made a bunch of good points to consider. True didn't mention it, but I wish I'd thought of it when I had the cage installed in my Firebird. He used a roll of blue painters tape to set up an approximate model of the tubing in his car so he could see how it was going to fit and take pictures so he could discuss the cage with people and they could see what he was talking about. Had I done that before they welded the cage in my car I would have moved a couple bars an inch or two here and there which would have made it much easier to get in and out of the car. Having seen his idea I'd be very tempted to go buy a bunch of cheap fat pipe insulation and a can of glue and spend an hour or two to mock up a foam tubing cage in the car. Once it's welded in there's no changing things without a lot of work.

[Damn True]

Excellent point and I completely forgot "the blue-tape mockup". The guy that is doing my cage and I have gone through a number of rolls.

[Monte71]

wow.i guess im set.do you guys thing i should build the cage to as close to specs as possible?did i mension that this car WILL be an everyday drive?so it has to comfortable and safe in stop and go traffic,thanks

[NOT A TA]

Excellent point and I completely forgot "the blue-tape mockup". The guy that is doing my cage and I have gone through a number of rolls.

True, I've been a lurker on CC for years and was following the street cage thread when you chimed in then kept following with interest because it became focused on your car and the discussion of possibly using the convertible brace and adding tunnel to firewall bracing. Their sign up system didn't like my ISP a long time ago when I tried to sign up. I changed ISPs almost 2 years ago but was so accustomed to being a lurker there I never tried again after switching LOL Maybe this week I'll try again.


Monte: Anyway, back on topic. A daily driver with a full cage presents things you might not think about. Here's a few

Sunvisors will not be operational.

Getting in and out of the car may require the door to be opened to the maximum. This is a pain in parking lots and in the garage if you have one.

If the supports by the A pillers go through the dash they may interfere with the HVAC vents or the heater box etc.

Trunk space will be reduced.

Your car will be worth less and harder to sell.

Did you read the threads and do some searches on tubing etc? Did you check the tech requirements for any organizations where you might possibly run the car?

If you aren't planning on using the car for racing or on track events you should seriously consider not installing a full cage due to added risk of injury when driving a caged car without head protection. A full cage, proper seat, helmet and cage padding are combined to offer the most protection when used properly with all the other features. Removing one or more from the equation or not using them as designed (like harness tightness) actually increases the risk of injury or death.

Can you provide more details on how the car will be used?

[Damn True]

True, I've been a lurker on CC for years and was following the street cage thread when you chimed in then kept following with interest because it became focused on your car and the discussion of possibly using the convertible brace and adding tunnel to firewall bracing. Their sign up system didn't like my ISP a long time ago when I tried to sign up. I changed ISPs almost 2 years ago but was so accustomed to being a lurker there I never tried again after switching LOL Maybe this week I'll try again.




Wow, that was a while ago. The convertible brace was something of a brainstorming idea. Didn't go far. There is a pretty solid plan in place now though. I have a fair bit of work to do before we get there though.

On the CC.com registration, it won't accept a free-mail registry. So if your only address is hotmail it'll deny. You have to use something like an ISP provided email addy (earthlink, comcast etc.)

[Twentyover]

wow.i guess im set.do you guys thing i should build the cage to as close to specs as possible?did i mension that this car WILL be an everyday drive?so it has to comfortable and safe in stop and go traffic,thanks


Have you had the opportunity to climb over a door bar on entry/egress every time you drive a car? It will get real old, real quick. I'd do alot of thinking before I made a decision to cage a daily.

[Monte71]

dont worry ive made my decision

[Jim Nilsen]

The days of a car being worth less and harder to sell these days has changed. A cage that is done correctly and is user friendly can add value. A purpose built car these days has become a much more valued buy if the buyer knows what he is up against, a well built cage already installed save a lot of time and decisions.

II MUCH surely proved that a cage doesn't hurt the value or discourage buyers, it just has to be right and the group of buyers are a lot smarter these days. If someone feeds you the line that it makes the car worth less these days they are just using it as an excuse to get you to come down on the price with an age old buying tool.

Times have changed

[Monte71]

i've been calling the places listed above and each told me 1900+for a full cage.wouldn't it be just easier to buy a welder and tube bender and do it my self?

[Yoda4561]

If you were repairing a garage door or fence, sure. On a such a safety critical and difficult to engineer structure like a rollcage, where a single weld failure or poorly placed support could really wreck your day, bad idea. If you insist, start buying books on chassis engineering and cage building, and being a competent welder first is not a suggestion. By the time you spend 2 years, 1900 bucks on welding equipment, material, and welding lessons, you'll probably be wishing you went the easy route and just had someone build it for you.

[Monte71]

im honestly looking to buy a welder and bender for a while now,im proficent at welding

[NOT A TA]

The days of a car being worth less and harder to sell these days has changed. A cage that is done correctly and is user friendly can add value. A purpose built car these days has become a much more valued buy if the buyer knows what he is up against, a well built cage already installed save a lot of time and decisions.

II MUCH surely proved that a cage doesn't hurt the value or discourage buyers, it just has to be right and the group of buyers are a lot smarter these days. If someone feeds you the line that it makes the car worth less these days they are just using it as an excuse to get you to come down on the price with an age old buying tool.

Times have changed

Times have changed to the extent that roll bars are more widely accepted in cars that also see seat use. However, I'm going to disagree that a fully caging an average car doesn't hurt the value or narrow the market of potential purchasers of the car in most cases. There's a huge market of muscle car people who have no use or desire for a full cage. A cage usually makes it more dangerous for the (unhelmeted) driver and navigator during street driving and eliminates the possibility of rear passengers entirely.

I had to sell my fully caged 67 Nova last year. I had a very difficult time selling it and ended up trading it for another car (of lesser value in both of our opinions) which would appeal to a wider market in order to make the Nova move. I did consider cutting the cage (or forward section of it) out of the car so guys who wanted a driver/cruise night/occasional strip car would be more interested.

Johns 67 was for sale for 2 years. Were potential buyers put off by the full cage? As a last resort to make the car move he decided to take a chance on sending it to auction. It was a very risky financial move on Johns part which luckily worked out well for him.

A roll bar instead of a full cage allows a much wider potential market should the car be sold. This is probably the best option for most people who desire rollover protection for occasional road track days, dragstrip use etc.

In my opinion, no bar or cage installation widens the market group. The more modifications we make of any kind the more we push the car into a niche market with fewer and fewer potential buyers.

Fully caging my Firebird was a big decision as I know if I need to sell the car it will be very difficult and I will probably get less money for it than if I'd left it with no bar or just a roll bar. Here's why.

Unless the purchaser is 5'5"-5'7" and 130-150 lbs they will have to spend at least $2,000.00 to reconfigure the drivers area to be able to physicly get in the car and pass tech in the classes the car is built to run in. They would have to buy a new drivers seat, modify it to fit within the confines of the cage structure , and then modify the cage to accept the new seat and position the driver correctly. I have no expectation of recovering the cost of the cage at the time of sale and fully expect that if I sold the car it would reduce the selling price compared with a similar car without a full cage.

[High Plains Mopars]

everyone around my neck of the woods doesnt build road race cars,only drag cars.


im located in colorado springs colorado and i was planning on a 12 point roll cage.


You ridding right? The home of the Pikes Peak Hill Climb and all you can find are drag builders? We have the Colorado Hill Climb Assoc right here, http://www.chcaracing.com/. Have you talked to any of the participants in the hillclimb ranks to find out where they get their cages done? Within an hours drive of Colorado Springs there are only two drag strips. By contrast, there are five road courses. Hurricane, Kleeman, C-Fab, Bueachamp, GT Racing can all do this type of work. Speak to the guys over at Revolutions Motorsports. They are a NASA certified inspection shop and can provide recommendations as well, and these are all just in the Colorado Springs area.

Move in to Denver or Pueblo and there are even more. Hanksville Hot Rods, Best Race Works, Mac Autoworks are just up the road and also do a lot of sports and touring car builds and those are just a few off the top of my head because I'm unfamiliar with the Denver area scene. Talk to any of the guys in Rocky Mtn Vintage Racing Assoc. http://rmvr.com/ about references for cage work These guys are all running trans am style race cars of differing vintages and can provide lots of info on resources.

Get on the net; http://www.nasarockymountain.com/ or http://www.coloradoscca.org/ and sign on. You don't have to be a member of their organizations to participate on their web forums, but you can get a lot of good information and references. CHCA runs events in conjunction with the SCCA and FIA so they have developed a very stringnet set of rules governing car builds, http://www.chcaracing.com/

But, can you do it yourself, sure. Like others have said, check out other cars, ask questions, read rules, check out specs, do lots of reading. Then run those questions by inspectors, on here, or other places to confirm what your doing. Look at requirements for NASA's AI or AIX, http://www.nasaproracing.com/. Heck, even references to oval track racing can provide good ideas and resources on basic cage construction. Check here for a plethora of books on car construction, set, design, and engineering. http://www.ssapubl.com/default.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Have fun, and welcome to car builder addicts anonymous!