Airride setup --> trimming the front fenders

[Moabdude]

I have the Airride shockwaves. I am installing them now.
If I drop the car in the "low" position there is NO space between the tires and the front fender edge. My wheels have 4.75 back spacing. I have 245-40-18 tires.

I can trim the front fender about a 1/2 inch. I also want to cut the inner fender on the top edge for about 2 inches wide and 12 inches long.
Has anyone ever done this?
Is it risky?

[JRouche]

I just got done today finalizing the clearance issues with my car and the shockwaves. Just wrapping it up. I took it from all the way up and all the way down, steering lock to lock. Just double checking EVERYTHING before I hang up the welder and grinders and finish the paint.

It clears, all the way around, cept!!! At full drop, sitting on the stops. Is that the clearance issue you have, sitting dead on the shocks? If so I wouldnt worry too much about it. You can not drive it full down, there is no suspension at that point. Its hard down, on the stops.

Only reason I ask is I was clearing everything, cept the inner fender. And that was on the stops and at a full turn. The tire just lightly scrubs the inner fender well. If I gave it a 1/2" rise it cleared. Or just a slight turn off of full turn, same, it clears. Ill never drive the car on the stops.

So I gotta ask, is yer interference only when she is down on the stops? If so, when you add a inch of suspension does it clear?

Your car is diff than mine but the setup sounds similar. I have 8" wheels and a 4.75" BS. I did notice that when I had the suspension in straight up for mock up purposes. Straight up. 0 degrees of camber, 0 degrees of caster and the toe was straight ahead I was scuffing the front fender.

Then when I adjusted the alignment to my starting point, .5 on camber and 3 on caster and 1/8" on toe it cleared the fender. Again. This was on the stops. But after a preliminary alignment (proper numbers) it brought the tire in at the top a lil and back some due to the caster. So then it cleared the front of the fender. And thats where I prolly started to scuff the inner fender at the back as well .

And if that isnt gonna do it (proper alignment) I dont see any problem cutting the inner well. But I would pocket it. Meaning dont just cut a swath of sheet metal out and ditch it. I would make a pocket and form some new sheet metal to replace the removed section. Weld it in.

But again, if I give it a half of an inch off the stops I am free and clear from any contact.

Take it up an inch off the stops. Then look for any contact. If you have any, after your alignment is set then start thinking about trimming and bumping.

And it sounds like you werent talking about it on the stops. You said the "low" position. But there is no real "low" position with the air ride. You have ride height and parked height. Its not meant to be a dual ride height system. One ride height and all the rest is a parked height. But Im now thinking you are looking at the most compression you might get during driving at a static ride height. And you dont want to scrub the fender. By the way, scrubbing the front is SO much better than eating the rear part of the fender, dont even go to close at the back side, you will curl the fender up and over the tire, its toast at that point.

I didnt hear what size the wheels were. I have 8x17". And my tires are 235s/45s with a vertical sidewall (goodyear F1s). Your tires are wider by 10mm number wise, all tires measure different.

One last thought. Before cutting the fender up front to clear. If its anything like my fender the front is attached to the car with a thin bar. I have heard of and seen guys make a bar a 1/2" longer to kick the front of the fender out a lil. It is unnoticeable for the most part. And it can get you some decent clearance for the front of the fender. Just a thought. JR

[Moabdude]

JR, thanks for your answer.
In “low” position I mean parked height. I did not get any bump stops from airride with the strongarms so it goes all the way down to the end of the shock. This is realy low!
At this moment there is no space at all between the fender and the tire. The tire is almost completely in the fender. I was lucky my wheels were in the straight line position otherwise I would have damaged (bent) the front fender for sure.
I can not move the steering wheel at all.

I have 245-40-18” tires with a 18x8”wheel. The car has just been painted (I know, I should have done this before paint.)
The car is not aligned yet.
The shockwaves are not hooked up yet.
I am currently installing them. No air available yet. I am moving the car up and down with a jack.

Cutting the edge for about ½”to ¾” seems the only possibility but maybe I am wrong.
thanks
Bram

[JRouche]

JR, thanks for your answer.
In “low” position I mean parked height. I did not get any bump stops from airride with the strongarms so it goes all the way down to the end of the shock. This is realy low! Bram

Ok, yeah, I dont have any bump stops either. When I said to the stops I meant bottoming the shock out. Thats my stops, thats why I wont drive it at all full down. And it does stuff the tire up inside the fender. I dont have any drop on my spindles. So if you have dropped spindles? Then its even lower for you. Im sorry, I dont know what car you are working on??



At this moment there is no space at all between the fender and the tire. The tire is almost completely in the fender. I was lucky my wheels were in the straight line position otherwise I would have damaged (bent) the front fender for sure.
I can not move the steering wheel at all.

Yeah!! Thats close, really close. So I am trying to picture the cuts you want to make. Will it be visible on the outside? Will it cut into the rolled edge of the fender so you will have a single sheet of metal showing instead of a rolled lip?

Your tires are around 25.7" depending on the manufacture. Mine are 25.6" with the GYs. So your tire isint really large. Maybe trying to stuff to much orange in the orange juice?? You had this wheel/tire arrangement on before the shockwave transplant?

Ok, I dont know if you are planning to cut the rolled lip of the outer fender out? If so I would recommend against it. Unless you are planning to put a roll back in there which can be somewhat difficult, not even impossible, but it will definitely wreck the paint.

Am I even on the right track? It is the outer fender lip you are talking about right??

I mean it sounds really close, even if you were to take it up off the stops by say three inches.

And Im not aired up yet either. I run the suspension through its travel with a floor jack. Safest way to dial it in..

Ok, Ill add one more thing. MAKE sure all the other components, like control arms, inner fender and frame, steering rods and brake lines never touch during the entire travel. I have been doing this for the last few days. With an air ride suspension you have to make sure nothing touches at all for the entire travel. And its a bear to work out because of the extended travel. NOTHING should touch, not even the slightest brake line contact.

Free and clear on everything for all possible movements is very important.

Id love to see some pics of your car, I love pics, everyone does..

A lil more info on the car would be sweet. JR

[formula]

I have this same issue--it's on my fixit list--only thing I could come up with, too, was to either cut and clearance my inner fenders or get some custom inners made. If I figure anything out I'll be sure to pass word on to you.

[Moabdude]

The car is a 68 camaro. Just painted. it was 4 years in paint prison. Only last year I decided to put in Airride.

Cutting the fender will not be visible from the outside. I have to polish the sharp edges to make sure it is not cutting anything.
Yes it will show a single sheet of metal. Unfortunately rolling the lip is not possible anymore.

I also thought about changing to a 235-40 tire

I will try to take pictures.

Formula, if you come up with a solution, please let me know.

thanks

[Rhino]

I'm working on a '68 and trying to solve a similar dilemma myself. At ride height, how much clearance do you have between the outside of your tire and the inside of your fender edge?

[Moabdude]

Formula / Rhino, did you solve the problem?

At SEMA I saw some things that might solve the problem:
- Velocity had some3/4 inch spacers between the mounting pad and the UCA. This way the wheels will tuck in a lot better.

I know this will affect the geometry but hej, I am only driving the car 1500miles a year so tire wear is no problem.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/IMG_1158-1.jpg

- a 67 camaro had cut the front fender(the edge inside) and a part of the innner fender.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/11/IMG_1103-1.jpg

did you solve it?

[JRouche]

Formula / Rhino, did you solve the problem?

At SEMA I saw some things that might solve the problem:
- Velocity had some3/4 inch spacers between the mounting pad and the UCA. This way the wheels will tuck in a lot better.

I know this will affect the geometry but hej, I am only driving the car 1500miles a year so tire wear is no problem.


The problem with raising the control arm mounts is it complicates the already bad issue with the camber gain on these cars. Thats why there is so much chatter re: the guldstrand mod and tall balljoints.

By raising the control arm you would be hurting the suspension even more. If any type of handling was a concern.

But if its just for appearance sake then handling is gonna take the back seat and by pulling in the top of the tire with the shims you could prolly gain some clearance at the fender.

JR

[Richio1]

Love that 67...and thanks for the info Moabdude. Getting ready to do my 69 so trying to trouble shoot any problems before they arise.

[Richio1]

BTW, would love to see some pics of your 69 with your system installed

[marolf101x]

You are all on the right track. . .

1-When in fully deflated position the tire may come into contact with the inner fender (depends on spindle, wheel/tire height). This is OK as you will not be driving the car at this height.

2-There are no bump stops in our kits. The air spring is the bump stop. When fully deflated the air spring compresses upon itself. There is an additional bump rubber inside the Shockwave to prevent metal-to-metal contact.

3-ALIGNMENT!!! Set a basic alignment. This allows the top of the tire to move inward when deflating due to camber. If you do not have a basic alignment you have no idea where the tire/wheel will actually reside during normal use.

4-You'll notice Velocity has quite large aluminum spacers on the upper control arms. We do this as we are running between 2-3 degrees camber (depending on conditions) at ride height.

5-Fender lip clearance. Velocity has messaged fender lips to provide the maximum clearance for our 245/18's. If you cannot get the tire/wheel combo to clear you'll have to investigate new wheels with the proper backspacing.

6-If you have ANY questions, just give us a call and we'll help you out.

[68metal]

any idea what I should budget to have a complete AirRide system installed in my 68 camaro ? equipment and labor

[marolf101x]

Our kits range from $3900-$7400 depending on what you want (tubular control arms, etc).

All 3 kits are easy bolt-ins. The most work you have to do beyond removing all the old bolts is trimming the front frame to clear the air springs and weld brackets to the rear end for the 4-link (if you buy a new rear you can get them from rear end manufacturers with our brackets welded to a new rear). We've had people install kits in parking lots before as they had no garage.

[Moabdude]

I have cut the fenders. Scary because the car is freshly painted.
It gives me about a 3/4inch moore space to work with.
Now I am working on the rear suspension.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/IMG_2499-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/IMG_2497-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/IMG_2492-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/IMG_0613-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/IMG_2606-1.jpg

[Rod]

your not going to run inner fender wells?

[Moabdude]

Yes I will run the inner fenders. Maybe I have to cut them as well........

[Moabdude]

Still tight. Can't turn the wheel when down.
Maybe I need dropped spindles?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_2777-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_2774-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/IMG_2772-1.jpg

[Rhino]

Do you know what your track width is center to center? This has been my delema from day one when designing my front suspension. When I crunched the numbers, I never came up with a good solution for zero interferance while turning when the suspension is compressed. The '67/'68 simply can't fit the tire the fenders of a '69 can.
In speaking with plenty of people in the know, they stated that I'll never see a "full stuff" scenario where I'll still be needing to turn the wheels. Unfortunately you're running into the exact same scenerio I've been trying to avoid. I'm hard pressed to find a solution that doesn't include narrowing the track width, flaring the fenders, or modifying the front wheels.

You have me really concerned with my 10.5" wheels now.


EDIT: I don't see dropped spindles working in your favor unless they were also modified to somehow cause severe negative camber gain as the suspension compresses. Since you would want to avoid this in most cases, I don't see this as an option for you.