Pro-touring car performance

[blown9746]

Why don't any of the magazines (at least that I know of) do performance tests of feature cars? Is it basically the liability?

What if for example Camaro Performers is doing a feature on Jackass and Charlie says yeah have it and see what it can do. Then the car gets put through similar performance testing that motor trend / car&driver would do on a new car (handling, acceleration, braking).

I realize the owner would have to agree to it, but I think a lot of the people building these cars would be happy to see them put through their paces. After all I don't see people building trailer queens on this site.

[DarkBuddha]

It seems to me that 5 or 10 years ago there was this big pledge by a bunch of the car magazines to start providing real performance data on the cars they featured. I also remember some editors' columns talking about all the new test equipment they got to do it with. I really started looking forward to seeing it happen, but I think I only ever saw maybe 2 cars which they provided data on and then no mention of it ever again. I think that was probably the final nail in the coffin for me with most magazines... over promising and under delivering while printing more ads than tech by impotent scribes of shlock and whoring for advertisers. It's good to see many of the mags are making a turn around these days!

[Bill Howell]

I think alot of it has to do with time restraints and location.
I know that both cars I have had shot for features were driven and action shots taken. However guys, not everyone has a roadtrack and drag strip in their backyard. Come on, if you have ever been at a shoot, you know it takes a good half a day to do it right, and that is just for the pictures you see in the mag. To rent a track takes extra planning and time if they are going to verify the results. I know when Hot Rod came to RTTHs to shoot Brian's and my cars the weather ruined any chances we had of Drag strip times. In a perfect world, willing owners would run their cars in several venues, but that is hard to do. Plus, we all know alot of feature cars are not performance oriented and so the numbers would not be impressive anyway. Most of the real cars built here will see track time sooner or later, just probably not during a photo shoot, not everyone will wear their fresh builds out the first week like I did....haha

[jfaria78]

I grew up literally next door to Sears Point Raceway (now Infineon) Anyway, I used to see the car mags take all kinds of cars out there and literally beat the crap out of them for days. They must have made a hundred passes to get the magically low ET and high MPH.

Unless you would want to give your keys or take a weeks off to get those numbers and everything dialed in perfectly then it would not be worth it.

Look at dyno numbers, if one person has a dyno test done at one place and it puts out one number and that same guy brings it to another dyno and gets another number, what number would you go with, would you average them out or just go with the higher number? It's just like drag racing in Colorado. It has an altitude adjusted index. So even though the car does not run a 9.90 there they can say the altitude adjusted et is that....

IMHO it is too controversial and people may just get mad that you can go out and spend 70k on a gs corvette and get better numbers than a very large percentage of PT style cars. It doesn't do anything for the aftermarket vendors and it certainly won't do much for the people that are in it for their ego's...

James

[Finch]

We live in a shallow superficial world which is all about the ego/appearance. I know that most if not all on this site care more about the perf numbers than the bling so this is a legit question.

I for one am not afraid to take the Pepsi challenge with any one of my cars, They don't get an easy life at my house and the one thing I can be sure of is that they will work or die trying. For example I put my Mustang that was just on the cover of PHR into a concrete barrier at the Nashville GG show 2 weeks after the photo shoot trying to get every last bit of performance out of it. If you don't know where the limits are then how can you drive to them.

I do wish performance was a key part of the decision making process for the magazines as it is easy to polish up an old car and make it look good under the lights. Making it also perform is something entirely different

[Charley Lillard]

Edmunds.com really wanted to test Jackass but I didn't feel the need to let someone beat the crap out of my car. If they break it they say "sorry" and hand it back. This was right before Power Tour.

[Vegas69]

It's a great idea but not realistic. I'd be up for it but only if they paid for any damage. Not mechanically but if they wrecked my car. LOL It's just to time consuming for them.... How about plan B. I race the piss out of my own car and hand them the time slips.....:1st:

[67autocross]

Car and Driver did a test on XV Motosports Challenger a few years back, now the car is cool as hell and I would take it over any new car , but if you look at the performance test numbers ( 13.5@ 107 1/4 mile, 70-0 mph stopping 183 feet, 0.90g on the skid ) it has to be near the bottom of the pile for a car that costs $175,000.
These are about the same numbers you would get out of a box stock $30,000 Mustang GT, so I don't think anyone is really buying these cars for the all out performance.

[Vegas69]

Car and Driver did a test on XV Motosports Challenger a few years back, now the car is cool as hell and I would take it over any new car , but if you look at the performance test numbers ( 13.5@ 107 1/4 mile, 70-0 mph stopping 183 feet, 0.90g on the skid ) it has to be near the bottom of the pile for a car that costs $175,000.
These are about the same numbers you would get out of a box stock $30,000 Mustang GT, so I don't think anyone is really buying these cars for the all out performance.
:thankyou:

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

i wouldnt do it for a magazine... i would do it to shut an asshwhole up.

heads up!

[Nine Ball]

Not many photographers can drive a car, especially if it is high powered. Not many car owners would willingly allow some stranger to beat on their car. Car testing magazines are done with cars supplied by manufacturers just for that purpose.

[David Pozzi]

We test cars all the time.. mostly ones out here since it's hard to find a venue and do the test "away from home"

PHR use to test cars but when our local spot stopped letting us drag test the Editor decided he didn't want to do any testing.

So we do test.. if you're out this way. In fact Super Chevy just did a huge test of 10 cars that will be in the January issue (I wrote it).

BTW... this is Steven Rupp on David's shop computer... :)

[j-rho]

Any of the So-Cal based magazines should be able to lease time at El Toro to do testing, as R&T, C&D, and others do.

R&T had an offshoot magazine, "Speed" for a while that focused and did their full body of tests on performance-tuned cars, unfortunately it never took off and was canned after only a few issues.

To do testing right is expensive - the test equipment, the space, wear & tear, not to mention the time of the professional testers. You need to produce fast but repeatable results which can take a long time depending on the number of tests involved.

[Steve1968LS2]

We are working out a deal with El Toro to test there.

We were testing at Fontana but it became "problematic"

It's VERY hard to do with cars that arn't local. If you're local we are more than happy to put your car through our battery of tests. :)

[srh3trinity]

It would be cool if the magazine's had a "Stig" like on Top Gear and put the cars through the paces on a the same track with the same driver, but I can completely understand why it doesn't happen. Insurance, track access, who pays for damage, etc.

[68Formula]

I thought it was called the Car Craft Real Street Eliminator?

[mpozzi]

Edmunds.com really wanted to test Jackass but I didn't feel the need to let someone beat the crap out of my car. If they break it they say "sorry" and hand it back. This was right before Power Tour.

Couldn't agree more, Charley. Kinda weird but I have a problem with someone else having their way with my car even though I know I'm harder on it than they would be. I'd have to trust them a bunch ...

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[nickdoe6]

It's mainly because of the lack of a proper facility. At Camaro Performers we've done quite a few features and have included testing numbers. Most guys don't have a problem letting us taking their cars through the cones (C'mon, Mary. Just once? I promise I won't break anything), but we just don't have a place to do it like we used to.
Back in the seventies and eighties when drag strips were plentiful and available for testing, the mags were all over it. Insurance wasn't an issue like it is today either. The drag strips actually enjoyed the extra exposure they received in the magazines just by having their sign in the background.
I tried to book Pomona Raceway to test some cars a few years ago and they told me I would have to pay for a fire and safety crew if we were to go over 45 mph. What!!!??? Oh, and that was on top of the $300 per car we test.
So as you can see, the people with the big parking lots and drag strips aren't much for letting us play in their sandbox. At least at a fair price.
We have or fingers crossed that one of our locations will come through with a contract and a fair deal soon. We'll see, though.

Nick L.

Hey Mary ... Charley cheats!

[bret]

A few years ago we invited about 30 magazine editors out to Putnam Park to drive 12 of our air ride cars at our first Street Challenge event. I found out several things:

1. There are some really good drivers
2. There are some really good magazine editors
3. They may not be the same people
4. The fasted magazine guy was 3 seconds a lap slower than the slowest professional driver.
5. The tire bill for the day was around $10,000.
6. The payoff was tremendous
7. I was motivated to build better cars
8. I would do it again, but with a refined list of cars and drivers


I am a big fan of independent testing, but I recognize there are several obstacles, cost and respect heading the list.

Ask yourself this question: Would I let a stranger drive my car to its full potential knowing that they would bear no responsibility for any damage?

I have, and I've been lucky. I also have the motivation [selling parts] and the resources [selling parts] to recover from any mishaps.

If I lacked either the motivation or the resources to engage in this activity, there is no way I would let someone else have the fun of wringing out my car.

$.02

[nickdoe6]

If I lacked either the motivation or the resources to engage in this activity, there is no way I would let someone else have the fun of wringing out my car.


I'm totally offended, Bret. I told you if I broke anything you could have my '82 Malibu wagon. That's a fair trade. Right?

Nick L.:drive1:

[ITLBTU]

I wouldn't have a problem letting a professional drive my car for the sake of testing it, as long as I am allowed to do the same test myself... Dave... maybe your next article can be on low-buck performers... I'll sign up for that article! :fingersx:

[nickdoe6]

Actually, with all the testing we've done over the years, the drag testing provided the most carnage. Usually we leave it up to the car owner to decide if his/her car is capable of the test.
I can't think of a time when we've broken anything by doing suspension testing. We may have shortened the life of some tires, but that's about it.

Nick L.

[bret]

I'm totally offended, Bret. I told you if I broke anything you could have my '82 Malibu wagon. That's a fair trade. Right?

Nick L.:drive1:

hehe...I've been looking for a wagon for my wife!

Nick...remember JN doing the 9000rpm burnout from the pits at Putnam Park? It seemed like to prettier the driving suit the more dangerous the driver. I guess that is why you always wear worn out jeans and a holy T shirt...

It was a blast though!

[Scott Parkhurst]

Bret-

I was at your Putnam Park event and it was awesome. We talked openly about what a gutsy undertaking it was, but there you were doing it. I'll never forget it, and I thank you again for the invite.

Oh, and if your wife is looking for a wagon, does she like 2-tone '67 Malibus?

[mpozzi]

It's mainly because of the lack of a proper facility. At Camaro Performers we've done quite a few features and have included testing numbers. Most guys don't have a problem letting us taking their cars through the cones (C'mon, Mary. Just once? I promise I won't break anything), but we just don't have a place to do it like we used to.
Back in the seventies and eighties when drag strips were plentiful and available for testing, the mags were all over it. Insurance wasn't an issue like it is today either. The drag strips actually enjoyed the extra exposure they received in the magazines just by having their sign in the background.
I tried to book Pomona Raceway to test some cars a few years ago and they told me I would have to pay for a fire and safety crew if we were to go over 45 mph. What!!!??? Oh, and that was on top of the $300 per car we test.
So as you can see, the people with the big parking lots and drag strips aren't much for letting us play in their sandbox. At least at a fair price.
We have or fingers crossed that one of our locations will come through with a contract and a fair deal soon. We'll see, though.

Nick L.

Hey Mary ... Charley cheats!

For you, Nick, anytime!!! Must warn you in advance that after a couple of minutes behind the wheel of that car, you'll be wanting to put some uberleaf springs on everything you own ... :yeah:!!

:hail: the leaf spring!!! Repeat the mantra when needed!!!

And yes ... Charley does and quite well, too.

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[nickdoe6]

hehe...I've been looking for a wagon for my wife!

Nick...remember JN doing the 9000rpm burnout from the pits at Putnam Park? It seemed like to prettier the driving suit the more dangerous the driver. I guess that is why you always wear worn out jeans and a holy T shirt...

It was a blast though!

Ha! I'll never forget it. That was awesome! That limiter never had a chance...
Good times for sure...
It takes a long time to get my shirts and pants just right for drivin'

N

[nickdoe6]

For you, Nick, anytime!!! Must warn you in advance that after a couple of minutes behind the wheel of that car, you'll be wanting to put some uberleaf springs on everything you own

Mary, I'll have to take my chances. You know I'm a risk taker...

Nick

[Steve1968LS2]

hehe...I've been looking for a wagon for my wife!

Nick...remember JN doing the 9000rpm burnout from the pits at Putnam Park? It seemed like to prettier the driving suit the more dangerous the driver. I guess that is why you always wear worn out jeans and a holy T shirt...

It was a blast though!

Hey, it's not like you've never broken stuff when loaned a car... ;)