Cervical spine surgery

[kamaroman68]

Anyone here experience this? I have a herniated disc in my neck and its causing 24/7 numbness in my thumb and acute pain down my arm approximately a doxen times a day. I have been ordered to not do any type of physical activity. They want to perform a spinal fusion at C5-6. I have been through physical therapy and it really didn't help. I am getting a second opinion this coming monday but just in general wondering if anyone on the board has had anything like this. Better alternatives???? Thanks Chris

[JMD68RSSS]

My Mom just had surgery on her neck for a simialar issue. Fingers on right hand numb and physical therapy caused her arm to go numb. They replaced 3 discs in her neck with titanium plates and removed bone spurs. This was about 1 month ago. She just got her neck brace off. With the initial surgery, almost immediately, most of the numbness went away. Appears to be a great success.

Good luck. I know my Mom was in great pain as well.

[John Wright]

I agree, getting a second opinion is highly recommended.

[Jim Nilsen]

They have this type of treatment in our area and it is very successful without any surgery. check it out and see if it is for you?www.vax-d.com (http://www.vax-d.com)

[wicked68]

did you try epidural cortisone injections yet? give that a shot before surgery - surgery should be your last option and should be put off as long as possible.

[cstmyzr]

My wife had back surgery a year ago and it was perfectly successful. She got turned down for surgery a year or so prior to this and the shots held off the pain right up until they didn't anymore. We went to three surgeons and then picked the one we wanted to do the surgery. She ended up getting a micro-discectomy so she only has 1.5" scar, all done thru a microscope. Her disc was torn and a shrimp tail of a piece was rubbing on the surrounding nerves causing numbness and pain.

If I were you, I would get several opinions and research artifical discs. Talk to surgeons with different methods (ie micro-surgery vs full open surgery and fusion vs disc replacement, etc.) Many people we talked to could tell us stories of their friends and family that had back surgery and the problem/pain never went away or got worse. We did not have that experience, my wife is doing great and we know we are lucky. The decompression tables like the vax-d can work for bulging discs but not every situation will be fixed by decompression so be careful. My wife is now regularly getting decompression treatment at our Chiropractors office just to keep things stretched and prevent future problems.

I hope this info helps you, good luck and I wish you a fast recovery.

[chevelle71]

I think I would look into may options also before having someone cut on me. I started going to a NUCCA Chiropractic Dr and has helped out in may ways. No more numb handsand my back is doing great. It was something I wouldnt have entertained a few years ago and even after the first adjustment I was thinking, did he do anything? Anyway good luck.

[rich_fbodySS]

My dad has four fused vertebrae in his neck. Working for an orthopaedic clinic, they referred to him as their "poster child".
He was still able to work until 65 (15+ yrs). It worked well for him, though, he can't rotate his head without rotating his whole body.
Fist two were fused with cadaver bone and the others came from his hip.
-Rich-

[Patrick]

I broke my neck in two places 15 years ago this month. The Docs fused C1&C2 using titanium screws, titanium wire, and bone from my hip. My hip hurt something fierce after the surgery. I have limited movement in my neck...people think that I have a permanent "crick". But I am well aware of how very fortunate I am to be walking!!!!

Anyhow, if you have to have the surgery -- you have to have it. If there is anyway to avoid it by all means look into.

[69TAPoser]

Coincidentally, my step dad is in intensive care right now from his surgery. It was his 2nd in 2 weeks.

This is pretty bad and I don't want to scare you. His case is extreme.

He has 3-4 very badly herniated disks. He had lost feeling in his legs and was slightly trailing 1 leg behind him a bit and it had gotten so bad he was falling several times a day. He is only 61 but was in the construction biz his whole life.

The 1st surgery was the easier of the 2 and went in through his neck. It took 3 hours and he was pretty good after 1 day.

The 2nd surgery (yesterday) not so easy...again not trying to scare you. They needed to get at his mid back and they went through his chest, removed a rib, and intentionally collapsed a lung. Surgery started at 4:00 yesterday afternoon and when they get to the stuff the are suposed to suck out...it has all hardened and like bone...the reason for a LOT of his pain. It also GREATLY prolonged surgery.

He finished surgery at 12:30 this morning and was on a ventilator and intentionally knocked out. At around 9:00 his blood pressure started plummeting (he's a pretty big guy...6'2" and about 290) sporadically.

The latest update that I got from my Mom about 4 hours ago is that he is now off the vent, breathing on his own, and is in pain, but alert. So he is stable. This is the best news.

Now that he has stabilized, we are all anxious to see how he progresses over the next few mos. He has been thru a hell of a lot but had no choice.

Phil

[kamaroman68]

Thanks for replying guys! I appreciate it. Problem is I dont know how bad mine is. The doctor made it out to be really bad- and of course my wife went with me to this appointment. They wanted surgery immediately- as in 5 days. I told them no because i had to get things settled at home/work. I have a friend at a gym who is some kind of phd working out of a gym that says I should try more intense physical therapy. The brain and spine specialist says that PT is over and it has done all it can do at this point. I made another appointment with another dr for a second opinion and much to my surprise I was able to get it asap- Monday! I am actually going to see the Dr. that "fixed" Kevin Everett. Kevin Everett was the Buffalo Bill that got injured a couple years ago on the opening drive of one of there games. Hopefully better news will come out of this. Again thanks guys I appreciate it! Chris

[Ash]

I fully agree with all who say get multiple opinions (not just two IMHO) and exhaust every option possible. Not trying to scare you either, but as routine as some in the medical field may make it sound, it's still a major operation. My Aunt had surgery 4 years back and her problems worsened by a large degree. permanent numbness in her leg, back pain, spasms, the whole migilla! Turns out the doctor, who had many like operations under his belt, botched the surgery. She did'nt find this out till two years back.

Given the law as it stands now, it's impossible to find out the surgeons true track record.

[69Pony]

I've been fighting c4 and c6 herniated discs for about 5 years now. I elected not to have the surgery until absolutely required. Right now I go to bed every night with an ice pack on my neck. It helps keep the swelling down and managable. I also have taken several med-packs of steriods over the years and that also helps for awhile.

I have 3 friends that have had the surgery with various degrees of success. Long recoup times and some limitations in range for each of them.

The common term fo this is "mechanics neck". Get under a lift and look up - if you have the herniated discs this will get them talking....

Good luck regardless of which way you go. IMO - surgery is always an option but it may end up worse than what you have now. None of my friends were completely happy with the results but have resigned themselves to the fact that it's as good as it will get.

[Jim Nilsen]

The best question you can ask the doctor is ,How many of these surgeries have you done and how many have been totally successful?

When I had arthroscopic surgery on my wrist years ago it was totally new. When I asked the doc the magic question he told me he had done 7 of them and that they were all 100% successful and that if I wanted to talk to any or all of them he would get me in contact with them if they were willing to talk to me. He hid nothing and even gave me a video tape of the surgery. The wrist he did is better than the other these days. Mine got back to almost new within weeks.

Trust them about as much as you would a traveling salesman with your life.

I hope you do all of the research and look into the insurance and see what and where they will pay for it? You may be able to go to the best in the world for the cost of a plane ticket and the best damn vacation to get well you ever could go on. Get the best and it may also be less cost with the new nonevasive surgeries they have now. Your insurance may also be on your side to find the right doctor and treatment.

Do the research !!!!

I will be thinking of you and pray that the best comes to you.

Goodluck

[BRIAN]

Surgery should help with numbness it usually will not end pain. Spine surgery especially cervical is always a crap shoot and any good surgeon will tell you so. If you think it is rough now wait till recovery. There is also the chance that lower discs will be effected by taking the additional strain.

How do I know??? c3/c4/c5/c6 fused. I am getting into the T's at this point. Hard to make it through the day. Do not due it unless NEEDED!!

If you haven't seen a neurologist and have had tests do not proceed. The 8" injection in your neck to try and replicate the pain so they know the exact spot is fun. Then there there is the epidural in your spine where they have you inverted to see if there is nerve damages.

Not looking to scare you but depending on your age stick it out unless there is actual nerve damages. Use meds to reduce swelling not for pain.

Good luck!! If in NY area PM for DR.

[eburke]

My brother was having the same surgery at the Houston CLinic in Columbus, GA and so far has been sompletely successful from what I have read instead of using part of the bone from your hip or a cadiver they a plate of some typpe and inject it with resin (not the right words but hopegfully you understand) and you actually have the surgery today and go home the next day no invasive surgery and not as risky as any other procedure presently being done on the market today. Mybrother got lucky and by the time his surgery time came up he had gotten better and decided to wait. My self I herniated discs in both my neck and back and did all the treatments neck stretches, heat pads, drugs (precribed) and a chiropractor and the pain had gotten so bad I went to get the surgery which for me was a tough decision as I am scared to death of needles and he put me on a home traction device wich seemed to work better then the ones were you lay down on the table and I have been good for the last 13 years. If you need more information let me know send me a PM and I will get the name of the surgery and the internet site but it looked like it was less invasive then any other surgery I had seen.

[Josh]

AS a therapist that works with these often, this is a last resort option. It all depends on the extent of disc damage. A truly herniated disc (not just bulged) will not get better quickly with any conservative treatment. In this case surgery may take care of it but the risks are real, and you could be worse as a result. There are studies that show after a year of healing, surgical and non surgical groups have about the same outcome. In my opinion, if your arm pain is constant, 24/7, then consider injections and then if needed, surgery. Permanent nerve damage can result with prolonged compression. If your arm pain is intermittent then again consider injections and/or further P.T., best to wait out any surgical options in this case. Any way you go, this is a long term recovery. Good luck.

[trapin]

Kamaroman68, best of luck to you. And yes, get that 2nd opinion.

[kamaroman68]

Thanks again guys! I will do a follow up post monday after I get my second opinion. Chris

[elacruze]

I had C2-3-4 fused in 1980 after a Pontiac windshield and 20 foot header into the street. Surgery wasn't optional. Anyway, the surgery itself and the recovery were what I would call uneventful. After 29 years I'm still 95% functional (as I've been since then).
Although obviously any surgery is risky, once you start losing function I wouldn't hesitate. If you damage the nerves, you haven't avoided the risk in surgery, right?

[19sixtynine]

Hey Chris, here is another non-surgical option for you:

https://axiomworldwide.com/DRX9000.aspx

My brother is a Chiropractor and has had great success with this machine, although I cannot speak for sure if his success has been with patients experiencing your exact condition...but it never hurts to research a little.

Best of luck!

R

[kamaroman68]

Thanks for all the input guys! So i had my second opinion today and the result is the exact same. They say this is severe and if i dont get it taken care of i could become paralyzed. At age 33 and having 4 young kids I dont want/have that option. So now the problems arise. Problem is i have community blue insurance. They will pay for a cervical spinal fusion becasue it has been done for the past 50 years with great success. Cons with this type of surgery are range of motion losses and greater possibilities of 10 years down the road having to do this again with the adjacent discs due to the greater load being placed on them. Me being young and active they are pushing a artificial replacement disc. The insurance company finds this option to be exploratory with no long term studies on long term effects. With this surgery I keep the range of motion and supposedly all is well. According to both dr.s they have both submitted for an artificial disc in the past many times and they all have been denied. THe dr that i went to today said they would submit it for me and it would get denied but.... he said they would then file an appeal. THis process i guess takes about a week so again i won't know anything more until next monday. As to the PT and the machines.... i have looked into them, actually did PT when this all started. Both dr.s agree no more PT. They both said it would cause greater risk. Thanks again guys! Chris

[ATAK, Inc.]

Hey Kamaroman68,

I had herniated disks at c5-6 and c6-7from an accident in January, 1997 (I was rear ended in my 1st '69 Camaro, mini van went soo far under me the rear bumper support bars busted her windshield. Damage to the Camaro; rear bumper trashed, taillight panel pushed in about 1/4" and huge dent in gas tank. Her car was totalled), I went thru every kind of injection, therapy, etc...

Bottom line was I needed the surgery, pain in right arm/hand, burning in both arms/hands. Had a real good surgeon in Las Vegas, Dr. Mark Kabens, do the job. He is (was?) one of the best on the west coast. My operation was on 21 August, 1998. I lost about 10-15% of my range of motion. And have learned to compensate by not doing any radical movements with my neck. I have a titanium plate and screws and cadaver bone, and highly recomend the cadaver bone, the pain from harvesting bone from your hip is not worth it.

I woke up from the operation totally amazed, even scared the nurse, emmediately no pain/burning. Didn't even need hardly any pain meds. My recovery was 4 months long and was religious about wearing the collar. I had lots of problems swallowing for the first 2-3 years and had facet pain for about the same. 11+ years later and all is well, no problems exept for throat gets tight when I get real stressed.

My recommendations are:

1. Do a lot of research on potential doctors, find out their track record/ sucsess rates (if you can, be picky on the doc who does it, you should have some ability to do this, demand it from the insurance, it is your neck on the line-lol).

2. USE CADAVER BONE!!! I had a bone fusion in my wrist, only a sliver of bone off my hip. That hurt for a 1/2 a year.

3. Take every instruction from the Doctor and increase it by 50% or more, take everything slow and you should have a good recovery.


If there is anything else you would like to know, shoot me a message, I'd be more than happy to help!
Good luck to you and keep us posted!

[trex1270]

I have a bulging disk c6-7 and have had great luck with traction! I was in major pain for about 6 weeks and slowly got better. I have not had any therapy in 2 months and am doing great. I used to work out everyday, can not do that anymore...yet, but am going to start back up soonish:). I was looking into the laser spine institute in tampa, seems like a better deal. Good luck in what ever you decide.

[Jim Nilsen]

One point to remember about second opinions. If you get the 2nd opinion from a doctor that is working for the same institution as the 1st one, you will get the same opinion. Doctors have to deal with the heads of the institution as a team and will be given orders to do the same for each case as to not conflict with each other. This is to make lawsuits less and lawyers happy and easy to do.

Always get your 2nd opinion from a doctor at a different institution to be on the reality side of things instead of the lawyer side of things.

Your care is directly related to the institution you are getting it at. They lied to me about having the best radiation machine in the world to get me to stay with them when 3 of the best machines in the world were only 65 to 75 miles away and would have been less treatments with less chance of damage.

Respect yourself more than you do your doctor unless he is going to do the same treatment you are doing.

[mikester]

I hope you can post the outcome of all this. Ive been on LTD from my job since last December. I knew I had 3 popped discs at C4/5, 5/6, and 6/7. I was dealing with that for almost 6 years. Last July I had prostate surgery. While I was out recovering from that I woke up one night with really bad pain in my right hand. I went to my primary MD. Make a long story short the following EMG showed nerve impingment in both arms/hands from my neck. Ive got 25% range of motion left in my head/neck. I went to the best known neurosurgeon in my area. He sent me for a new MRI. The last one was done in Feb 08. This was Dec 08. Now C2/3 is herniated also. C3/4 is still good so far but the surgeon told me the operation will not fix my neck. It will only stabilize the whole mess. If he fuses the 3 real bad ones the one good one will go bad in a short time and he would have to put a rod in my neck. At least the guys not knife happy. He was bluntly honest. He told me that I may feel worse. I will have 0% range of motion. I thought the news of prostate cancer was bad. WTF ! Im 55. This hit hard. So at that point I was done with work. No more lifting at all. PT kept making it hurt so I had to stop that. I feel way old before my time. 4 years ago I was still throwing a ball around with my son. I went to my job with the letter from the surgeon and they made me go home. They wouldnt even let me stay for the rest of the day because if I hurt myself while I was still on the clock it would be their fault. 33 years at the job and everything changed. So for the past year my life has really changed. Cant do crap. I wake up all hours of the night because my hands burn. It feels like I put them in a frying pan. The doc gave me 120 Vicodin 750MG. In a little over 10 months Ive taken about a dozen of them. Im trying to deal with the pain without the meds. I cant wait to see how things go when the cold weather sets in. Im even starting to get headaches when I drive my truck. I might have to get something thats a little less heavy duty. Please keep us informed on what happens with this. If you want, sent me a PM to let me know. Believe me, I hope you make out well.

[mikester]

And yes get the best surgeon out there. Ask a lot of questions. I live in NY. I had my cancer surgery at Sloan Kettering in NYC. I could have had it closer. The guy that did my operation did over 500 of them. Getting there sucked. My wife and 2 kids stayed in a hotel in the city for 4 nights. Was it worth it. Hell yea. Would I do it any other way ? Nope. Take a pad, write all the questions you have, write all the answers. Then compare what the docs say. And go with the one that makes you feel at ease.

[kamaroman68]

Hey guys thanks for all the well wishes. As an update I had/have surgery scheduled for Dec 16th. So back to the insurance thing.... I've been calling community blue for this past week and everyone I've spoken with has said yes you have been approved for total disc arthroplasty-(artificial disc). They also told me they sent out a letter last thursday specifying this. I've been going home every day this week to check the mail and still today have no letter. So I called comm blue and asked again what was approved and was again told total disc arthroplasty. I asked could you please fax me this approval letter to my place of employment and they said they would try. Now I gotta say I had my hopes up real high after hearing approved from 8 different people. The 2 dr's I saw said com blue will NEVER pay for an artificial disc but again I hoped otherwise. So at the end of today I got the fax and guess what the total disc replacement is DENIED but they will approve the fusion. I called and complained but got nothing out of it. Both Dr's asked if I could switch over to Independent health in which this case in 2 months I can. So now I don't what to do. I was also told by the surgical scheduler that sometimes when the dr opens you up he may not be able to end up using the replacement disc and they end up fusing it up anyways. Again not sure what to do now! Chris

[kamaroman68]

I was also told by the surgical scheduler that even if my case was appealed and won comm blue would still not pay for it due to my "contract" I kind of feel unethical about swappping insurance companies just because one wont pay for the disc replacement. On the other hand I've been paying these people for 11 years now and they want to take the cheapest way out. Both dr's have told me that they have never had a denial regarding this particular surgery from independent health. I also called independent health today to find out about "pre-existing conditions" and they told me that as long as I didnt have an insurance lapse of 63 days or more that there would be no pre-existing condition worries. Again now are these people lying like comm blue so they can gain my business? So I am going back to the dr on Nov 4th once again to get the facts straight and try and help with a decision. Sorry for the long rant.

Chris

[mikester]

Just curious, where are you having the surgery done ? I mean where are you located ? Hospital in a major city ?

[kamaroman68]

Kenmore Mercy. This is in the Amherst/Buffalo region of New York. Thanks Chris

[mikester]

Did you ever consider going down into NYC to one of the big hospitals like Columbia or NYU ? I think the docs in these big hospitals do operations like this every day. Thats why I went to Sloan for my surgery. People from all over the US go there because it has a good reputation. The urologist that first found my problem wanted me to have the surgery done by his partner. He told me the partner was "getting pretty slick" at this operation. Im sure you can imagine what I said to him. I dont want the guy that has to check the manual every few minutes. I know that when the football players get busted up they dont go to hooterville to get fixed. If the doctors told me my neck could be fixed and not just stabilized I think I would try to get one of the big time docs to do it. Not to make you have more to think about but just a suggestion from somebody in the same boat.

[Boatmark]

I have to agree with Mike, for something like this you really should consider working with one of the heavy hitter hospitals. I oversee the medical care for elderly parents, and we have been involved with Johns Hopkins in Baltimore for over fifteen years. Yes, it is a royal pain to go there twice a year from Florida, and now Tennessee. . . BUT

They are the top rated medical facility in the country. Hopkins, Mayo, Sloan Kettering, UCLA etc. are in a league of their own. As top teaching hospitals they have the latest technology and techniqes . . . usually years ahead. For example, the radiation machine they used for my fathers prostate cancer was at the time one of four in the world. Now they are common, but it is now four years later.

If you have a broken leg, go to the local hospital. For major spinal surgury think hard about putting yourself in the hands of people who have the latest stuff, and have done it hundreds of times. I would at least ask for a referral to be examined by one of the big guys to get their opinion on the course of treatment proposed by the locals.

Good luck.

[mikester]

Believe it or not I considered Hopkins for my surgery and I live on Long Island. One of the leading doctors dealing with prostate cancer at Hopkins has a book out about it and all of the options. Im sure you know the guys name but I cant remember it. I read his book. The head of the urological surgeons at Sloan wrote a book too. I would have had to wait 2 months to see him but my surgeon was in his group and he had an opening right away. I was lucky. In more ways than one.

[BRIAN]

Problem is you are going to non conventional surgeons who are selling a surgery and a product. No major insurance Co is going to pay for that type of surgery as it probably does not have a proven track record. The laser and implant surgeries are almost never done by top doctors. I am not saying they won't or don't work but any spine surgery is a high risk. I had a laser surgeon willing to operate off a set of XRAYS.

What pre operative tests have you had? Have you seen a neurologist? Pain MGT? ENT? These are all Dr's you should be seeing before having surgery. How are they pin pointing the nerve without a test? You really are at the beginning and kind of leaping to the end. Don't do it right and you will only start from the beginning but in a lot worse shape.


You really have to see a surgeon who isn't selling something and tries to treat your condition before they operate. Anybody not giving you anti inflammatory medicine VS Vicoden is treatin the pain not the cause.

By the way Vicoden is about one step above Tylenol so if that is what they are giving you they can't think the pain level is that high.


Good luck!!

[mikester]

From reading the other posts by Chris it sounds like hes had a lot of other tests. I think the only one left might be a discogram and the surgeon I went to said they do that just before the actual operation so they know exactly what they have to do. And youre right Brian, Vicodin is mostly Acetaminophen. The pills that I take are 750MG of Acetaminophen and 7.5MG of Hydrocodone. But its still considered a narcotic since its basically a synthetic codeine. When I first hurt my neck I had to take 4 a day along with a 10MG Flexeril muscle relaxer and an 800MG Ibuprofen as an anti inflammatory. After being on that for a week and a half and not having any relief they gave me a weeks dose of a steroid that seemed to help. I dont ever want to reach the point that I need anything stronger. One of my friends takes Oxycodone every day. No thanks !

[kamaroman68]

Hey guys yes I've been through quite a few tests. MRI, X-rays to see if my neck was stable in flexion and extension, been to pysical therapy etc etc. I have not had a discogram and yes Mike you are correct that that would happen pre op so they know exactly where to go.
Now to the drugs they put me on for this.... Valium, Ultram, some type of steroid med pack that was taken for 6 days decreasing in dosages per day, Cyclobenzaprine(muscle relaxer) and I am supposed to take 400 mg of motrin 3 times a day.

I will say that at this point I dont have near as much pain as I did. But when it flares up and it does (last week) it hurts like hell. Right now apeaking with someone about a manual traction type of unit I can use at home. As of right now I stopped taking all pain drugs except for the motrin/ibuprofen as needed. I do not like taking drugs, I think that they are going to do more damage to me in the long run.
I did file for an appeal yesterday. Now the wait begins. I'm sure I know the outcome of this already but I was told by an ex Com Blue employee it was worth a shot. If not I think I can wait another couple of months. Thanks guys! Chris

[mikester]

Be real careful with the traction Chris. When I had the last flare up I considered going for that but when I spoke to the neurosurgeon he told me that it might make everything MUCH worse. He told me never to have traction or any type of manual manipulation. I know every case is different but I would ask your surgeon before I would do it. The last time my neck acted up I couldnt move my head at all. Holy crap, talk about pain ! I couldnt even touch my face to shave. It felt like someone was stabbing me in the back of the neck with a knife. I was sleeping in a recliner with pillows on each side of my head so it wouldnt move. I just keep hoping that it never gets worse but Im afraid some day Im going to have to get cut open. At least the surgeon isnt knife happy.